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Saturday, June 23, 2012

Ozzie Guillen: Slumping players should shun counseling, get drunk instead

But, but…what’s to become of the shrink in the front office?

“Great players don’t need a psychiatrist,” Guillen said. “I didn’t see Pete Rose talking with any psychiatrist, Paul Molitor or all those guys. They talked with nobody. The (bad) players are the ones that need the psychiatrist next to them. Last five years, you see a lot of this in baseball. When players fail, they need a doctor. When managers and coaches fail, they get rid of (them).”

Guillen, who played 16 seasons in the majors from 1985 to 2000, believes players have to help themselves.

“I was from an era in baseball when Budweiser and vodka took care of the psychiatric things,” Guillen said. “You fail, you get drunk and you come back the next day to see how good it feels. The psycho guys—the doctors—they never played this game. They never wore the uniform. They never came out of a slump. They’re not used to it, so how are they going to help?”

...“Players are making excuses,” Guillen said. “They don’t have the shrink when they go 4 for 4, they only need the shrink when they fail. I don’t believe in that. Some people do. Good for them.

“If (a psychiatrist) really worked, I would need one now,” he added.

Repoz Posted: June 23, 2012 at 07:17 AM | 119 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: marlins

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   1. boteman digs the circuit clout Posted: June 23, 2012 at 08:16 AM (#4164227)
“I was from an era in baseball when Budweiser and vodka took care of the psychiatric things,” Guillen said.

That didn't work so well for the Red Sox.

“If (a psychiatrist) really worked, I would need one now,” he added.

There's still time.
   2. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: June 23, 2012 at 08:36 AM (#4164230)
“I was from an era in baseball when Budweiser and vodka took care of the psychiatric things,” Guillen said.


That didn't work so well for the Red Sox.

“If (a psychiatrist) really worked, I would need one now,” he added.


There's still time.

And their psychiatrist is still in business.
   3. Lassus Posted: June 23, 2012 at 09:16 AM (#4164235)
If (a psychiatrist) really worked, I would need one now,” he added.

At least we know who Ray DiPerna is now.
   4. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: June 23, 2012 at 10:08 AM (#4164249)
I didn’t see Pete Rose talking with any psychiatrist, Paul Molitor or all those guys. They talked with nobody

And we know how well the Pete Rose story turned out.
   5. joeysdadjoe Posted: June 23, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4164250)
The (bad) players are the ones that need the psychiatrist next to them.

Guess we know where Josh Hamilton isn't going.
   6. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 23, 2012 at 10:25 AM (#4164258)
People with Brains: Ozzie Guillen should shun talking, stab self in neck instead
   7. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 23, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4164263)
I didn’t see Pete Rose talking with any psychiatrist, Paul Molitor or all those guys. They talked with nobody

His examples are a convicted tax cheat/degenerate gambler, and a cocaine user?

Is Ozzie trolling people with this quote?
   8. depletion Posted: June 23, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4164264)
Castro told him to say this to weaken the moral fiber of the capitalists.
   9. Greg K Posted: June 23, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4164283)
I think I'd really enjoy having a psychiatrist because I love talking about myself but feel bad when I subject other people to it. The fact that I'm paying the man/woman might alleviate some of the guilt.

On the other hand I'm far too fond of my various crippling social and emotional problems to try to change any of them...I'm just looking for a captive audience. Also I'm too cheap.

Looks like it's drinking again for me!
   10. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: June 23, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4164288)
“You fail, you get drunk and you come back the next day to see how good it feels.

Yeah, but then the libruls went and made amps illegal.
   11. boteman digs the circuit clout Posted: June 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4164292)
“You fail, you get drunk and you come back the next day to see how good it feels.

I've tried that. It doesn't feel so good the next day. :-(
   12. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 23, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4164313)
Worked for Miguel Cabrera.
   13. Bob Tufts Posted: June 23, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4164319)
This line of reasoning was prevalent in the early 80's. When I was traded to KC and went to the minor league camp, Dick Balderson gave a pre-breakfast speech in which he talked about a prospect that had not panned out because he got married and worried too much about his wife and family - not his baseball future. Having just gotten married, I was not amused.

To the GM, it was better for the team to keep players drunk and happy and spend the dollars on pencillin shots and bail rather than encouraging the players to construct a stable existence outside the game. And we wonder why so many players have problems after they retire?
   14. The District Attorney Posted: June 23, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4164320)
I hear Jack Keefe takes this advice.
   15. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 23, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4164333)
“I was from an era in baseball when Budweiser and vodka took care of the psychiatric things,” Guillen said.

Getting laid was an important part of this regimen, too.
   16. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 23, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4164405)
random

molitor has been on the wagon since the early 80's

that is his claim and there is nothing to show its not the case

terming him a 'user' suggests present tense

just saying
   17. Blastin Posted: June 23, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4164437)
Mr. Tufts, what would the old-school types say about the new paternity leave? (Fellow Tiger here, btw.)
   18. base ball chick Posted: June 23, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4164442)
yew see, psychiatrists are how Real Men (Tm) are pusssified, yassuh cuz Real Men don't talk and don't have feelings.

Real Ballplayers get married to show they ain't no fag, they screw her, knock her up, don't give her/kid a minnit's thought while he livin with da boyz. And if he's smart, he'll leave her in some other country and go back to load up on roids for the winter, yeah. and check out all the sluts from the area seein as how they can't wait to get holt of some famous man tail. yeah, live the mickey mantle lifestyle. that turned out REAL good fer mickey, his kidz, his wife, and all his teammates who couldn't keep up with the volume of alcohol/lack of sleep

guess it separates Real Ballplayers (Tm) from the sissies
   19. Blastin Posted: June 23, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4164456)
Yeah, bbc, the real men don't talk feelings bs bothers me too. I have been lucky enough not to need mental aid, but I sure would get it if I needed it (or if my marriage needed it; am unmarried as of now, of course).

   20. depletion Posted: June 23, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4164473)
Yeah, worked out well for Lary Sorensen.
   21. Anonymous Observer Posted: June 23, 2012 at 05:59 PM (#4164477)
Losing... is a disease.
   22. Bob Tufts Posted: June 23, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4164479)
"Old school" re: paternity leave? Think about the "no crying in baseball" speech by Tom Hanks.

We understand so little about the brain and its function, yet people in sports still resist any efforts to try to evaluate and study how it can be used for performance improvement.

   23. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: June 23, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4164510)
John Smoltz is such a wonderful counterexample to this. He went to a sports psychologist in the 1991 season, who he credited with turning his career around. But Smoltz was also a famously good postseason pitcher, which suggests a lot of mental toughness. I wonder if Ozzie could make anything of that.
   24. boteman digs the circuit clout Posted: June 23, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4164527)
"highlights" of Ozzie's post-game rant after a closed-door meeting following today's Marlins loss.

@joecapMARLINS: #Marlins ‘should be ashamed,’ Ozzie says after 7-1 loss... Palm Beach Post article

They should bottle this stuff to liven up those boring parties.

Here's the YouTube video. I'm much better now.
   25. McCoy Posted: June 23, 2012 at 08:53 PM (#4164528)
I don't see how Guillen is the manager for next season. Loria has invested a bunch of money in this team and if it doesn't start winning the ballpark isn't going to get filled.
   26. Dag Nabbit: secretary of the World Banana Forum Posted: June 23, 2012 at 08:56 PM (#4164529)
The Marlins hare having a whiplash season. Lousy start - 8-14 in April, ending the month in last.

Then they catch fire, and on June 3 are 31-23, having won 23 of their last 32.

They've since dropped 15 of 17. Real whiplash season.
   27. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 23, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4164573)
Real whiplash season.

if you want to use selective breakpoints (which, in this case, DO reflect their season)
April 8-14
May 21-8
June 4-15

I honestly can't recall another team with that Jeckyll/Hyde record
   28. Bhaakon Posted: June 23, 2012 at 10:31 PM (#4164574)
We understand so little about the brain and its function, yet people in sports still resist any efforts to try to evaluate and study how it can be used for performance improvement.


As you say, we know so little. In the absence of a obvious, treatable condition, sending players to psychiatrists is an expensive investment with little in the way of demonstrable returns.
   29. cardsfanboy Posted: June 23, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4164590)
As you say, we know so little. In the absence of a obvious, treatable condition, sending players to psychiatrists is an expensive investment with little in the way of demonstrable returns.


Have to agree.
Considering for years they have been telling people that experience trauma, that it's best to relive it by talking about it(CISD).... It turns out that was the worse advice possible. I would imagine that on a lesser scale, it still applies, talking about bad things that happen to you, might turn out to be not such a good idea.
   30. Dag Nabbit: secretary of the World Banana Forum Posted: June 23, 2012 at 11:30 PM (#4164601)
As you say, we know so little. In the absence of a obvious, treatable condition, sending players to psychiatrists is an expensive investment with little in the way of demonstrable returns.

Given the amount of money floating around MLB, I really don't know if seeing a shrink qualifies as expensive.
   31. BFFB Posted: June 24, 2012 at 05:49 AM (#4164656)
To the GM, it was better for the team to keep players drunk and happy and spend the dollars on pencillin shots and bail rather than encouraging the players to construct a stable existence outside the game. And we wonder why so many players have problems after they retire?


That's a strange contrast to Alex Ferguson (Manager of Manchester United for 25+ years) who encourages players to get married and have a stable existence outside the game because he doesn't want them going out clubbing every night and appearing in the tabloids for non-footballing reasons.
   32. Bhaakon Posted: June 24, 2012 at 06:03 AM (#4164657)
Given the amount of money floating around MLB, I really don't know if seeing a shrink qualifies as expensive.


Then why not acupuncture and exorcisms as well? Just because it's negligible in respect to the overall budget doesn't mean it's worth the players' time or the owners' money.
   33. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: June 24, 2012 at 06:56 AM (#4164661)
I will put forth here that I think counseling or the "talking cure" or whatever you want to call it is pretty much worthless. I hope that if I ever have real psychiatric needs, someone gives me some freaking pills.
   34. Bhaakon Posted: June 24, 2012 at 07:06 AM (#4164662)

I will put forth here that I think counseling or the "talking cure" or whatever you want to call it is pretty much worthless. I hope that if I ever have real psychiatric needs, someone gives me some freaking pills.


Even if you buy into the "talking cure" for serious psychiatric problems, what does it have to offer to a slumping ballplayer? Treating a non-psychological problem with counseling seems like it would be about as effective as having the players burn their underwear in the bullpen before a game.
   35. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: June 24, 2012 at 08:29 AM (#4164669)
Even if you buy into the "talking cure" for serious psychiatric problems, what does it have to offer to a slumping ballplayer? Treating a non-psychological problem with counseling seems like it would be about as effective as having the players burn their underwear in the bullpen before a game.


Well, why is the player slumping? With Smoltz the problem was basically a lack of confidence, which in a pitcher manifests itself as walks. That seems like the sort of thing that isn't necessarily a big deal for a a regular human but would be a huge problem for an athlete, and also the sort of thing that can respond well to the talking cure. Talking doesn't work well for major trauma or for things that are a result of a physically screwy brain, but there are low-level things for which talking is the basic treatment. That doesn't necessarily need to mean talking with a shrink, but if that's what works then go for it.
   36. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 24, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4164678)
random

molitor has been on the wagon since the early 80's

that is his claim and there is nothing to show its not the case

terming him a 'user' suggests present tense

just saying


Ozzie says that players should handle it like Molitor, and one of the ways Molitor "handled it" was to use cocaine during (some point in) his playing days.

That's all I'm referencing. Ozzie referred to the past in his quote, and so was I.
   37. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 24, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4164693)
1. Psychoanalysis is ########. Complete and total ########.
2. John Smoltz was a douchenozzle.
3. Ozzie Guillen may be history's greatest American.
   38. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: June 24, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4164699)
Isn't he Venezuelan?
   39. Baldrick Posted: June 24, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4164711)
1. Psychoanalysis is ########. Complete and total ########.

Therapy and psychanalysis are completely different things.

Or, to be more precise, psychoanalysis is a very small (and mostly unused except in TV shows and movies) branch of therapy.
   40. BourbonSamurai Is a Lazy Nogoodnik Posted: June 24, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4164717)
See, this is what I've been telling my wife! Screw counseling, to the bar!

Thanks Ozzie!
   41. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 24, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4164728)
Therapy and psychanalysis are completely different things.


Therapy - or at least the "talking cure" - mostly involves paying some guy obscene rates to listen to you talk about how bad you feel and how much nobody loves you. I get better rates at the bar, and they bring me drinks too.
   42. Bob Tufts Posted: June 24, 2012 at 12:17 PM (#4164732)
We understand so little about the brain and its function, yet people in sports still resist any efforts to try to evaluate and study how it can be used for performance improvement.


"Talk therapy" is only one piece of the puzzle. Visualization techniques work - see Bob Rotella's work with golfers.

There is also the medication route, as we have seen with the explosion in people who claim their children have ADD and need adderall or an equivalent to help them focus on classes and tests. I wonder why MLB monitors the TUE for these substances in the first place.
   43. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4164734)
Therapy - or at least the "talking cure" - mostly involves paying some guy obscene rates to listen to you talk about how bad you feel and how much nobody loves you. I get better rates at the bar, and they bring me drinks too.

Sam, if you're going to start positing that, I dunno, let's say rape and child abuse victims start drinking instead of going to therapy, you are going to lose a lot of sanity points.
   44. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 24, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4164764)
Sam, if you're going to start positing that, I dunno, let's say rape and child abuse victims start drinking instead of going to therapy, you are going to lose a lot of sanity points.


I'd suggest they find something that works for them and go about their business.
   45. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4164771)
I'd suggest they find something that works for them and go about their business.

Oddly wafflerrific. As you think therapy is worthless, if one of the people I spoke of came to you asking, therapy is not something you'd suggest. In fact, it sounds as if - when asked for your honest opinion - you'd discourage it, yes?
   46. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 24, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4164807)
As you think therapy is worthless, if one of the people I spoke of came to you asking, therapy is not something you'd suggest. In fact, it sounds as if - when asked for your honest opinion - you'd discourage it, yes?


"Pay some guy $1000 per hour to talk it out" therapy? No. I wouldn't suggest that. I'm not sure what I'd suggest, but for the thought experiment to be realistic and plausible, the person coming to me would have to be someone I know and cared for, enough so that they trust me with this revelation. That indicates family, or close personal friends. In such a situation, my immediate suggestion would be for them to go find a public event to be seen at for the next few hours, so their alibi for any pending killings might be airtight.

I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this.
   47. Lassus Posted: June 24, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4164959)
I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this.

I find your utter dismissal of therapy for anyone and everyone odd and out of character, that's all. I was curious for clarification because it seemed so weird for someone as thoughtful as I consider you to be.
   48. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 24, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4165003)
I find your utter dismissal of therapy for anyone and everyone odd and out of character, that's all. I was curious for clarification because it seemed so weird for someone as thoughtful as I consider you to be.


Ah. Then let me thoughtify up my position a little.

I think talking through issues and working through trauma is fantastic, as is beating the hell out of people who hurt you badly. (I'm not big on outsourcing justice.) I think the therapy industry is a farce.

EDIT: I also think there's an unbridgable abyss between "victim of sexual abuse" and "a pitcher who had a bad day at the park."
   49. Greg K Posted: June 24, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4165132)

EDIT: I also think there's an unbridgable abyss between "victim of sexual abuse" and "a pitcher who had a bad day at the park."

So you're saying sexually assaulting Jesse Chavez for his performance today would be a bad idea?
   50. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: June 24, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4165146)
Do therapists charge $1000 an hour somewhere? My therapist (not a Psyhciarist with an MD or even a clinical Psychologist with a PhD...she specialzied in anger management I think and had some kind of masters and its aid LCPC on her card, whatever that means.) was a nice lady who charged $60-80 per session, I think. Insurance covered all but a copay. I stopped going to her after I told her she was dumb for being a libertarian.
   51. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: June 24, 2012 at 06:18 PM (#4165150)
BTW, USA vs. Italy World Cup women's team saber final coming up, streaming live on YouTube! #### Italy! Let's go Zagunis and Wozniak!
   52. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 24, 2012 at 07:38 PM (#4165194)
Do therapists charge $1000 an hour somewhere? My therapist (not a Psyhciarist with an MD or even a clinical Psychologist with a PhD...she specialzied in anger management I think and had some kind of masters and its aid LCPC on her card, whatever that means.) was a nice lady who charged $60-80 per session,



I think the amount you quote is pretty standard, judging from my own experience with a therapist who was a shrink with an MD. I suspect Sam pulled that $1,000-an-hour out of his own posterior. That, or Atlanta makes Beverly Hills look like Bug Tussle.
   53. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 24, 2012 at 10:19 PM (#4165344)
I think the amount you quote is pretty standard, judging from my own experience with a therapist who was a shrink with an MD. I suspect Sam pulled that $1,000-an-hour out of his own posterior. That, or Atlanta makes Beverly Hills look like Bug Tussle.


Meh. For $60-80 you'd be better served going to a chiropractor or massage therapist and follow that up with a long round of batting practice fastballs in the cages.
   54. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 24, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4165351)
I think slumping players should get drunk with their psychiatrist
   55. Perro(s) Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:45 AM (#4165429)
I also think there's an unbridgable abyss between "victim of sexual abuse" and "a pitcher who had a bad day at the park."


Maybe ARod gave RA a flashback tonight.

I will put forth here that I think counseling or the "talking cure" or whatever you want to call it is pretty much worthless. I hope that if I ever have real psychiatric needs, someone gives me some freaking pills.


Pass around those pills, man.
   56. Bhaakon Posted: June 25, 2012 at 01:47 AM (#4165430)
Well, why is the player slumping? With Smoltz the problem was basically a lack of confidence, which in a pitcher manifests itself as walks. That seems like the sort of thing that isn't necessarily a big deal for a a regular human but would be a huge problem for an athlete, and also the sort of thing that can respond well to the talking cure. Talking doesn't work well for major trauma or for things that are a result of a physically screwy brain, but there are low-level things for which talking is the basic treatment. That doesn't necessarily need to mean talking with a shrink, but if that's what works then go for it.


Probably physical issues or bad luck, in most cases. If you get therapy for non-psychological problems, the therapist is likely to mis-identify the slump as a psychological problem (because that's their field; they're bound to look for therapy-related solutions to problems, and confirmation bias is a #####) and basically talk the player into a mental block that didn't previously exist.
   57. Perro(s) Posted: June 25, 2012 at 02:09 AM (#4165433)
Probably physical issues or bad luck, in most cases. If you get therapy for non-psychological problems, the therapist is likely to mis-identify the slump as a psychological problem (because that's their field; they're bound to look for therapy-related solutions to problems, and confirmation bias is a #####) and basically talk the player into a mental block that didn't previously exist.


Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about?
   58. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 25, 2012 at 08:31 AM (#4165466)
Do you have any idea at all what you're talking about?


Don't you have a hot yoga session followed by an hour of dreamwalking to do or something?
   59. CrosbyBird Posted: June 25, 2012 at 09:24 AM (#4165488)
I think the amount you quote is pretty standard, judging from my own experience with a therapist who was a shrink with an MD. I suspect Sam pulled that $1,000-an-hour out of his own posterior. That, or Atlanta makes Beverly Hills look like Bug Tussle.

$1000/hour sounds pretty high, but $60-80/hour sounds pretty low.

In my experience, the regular price (what is submitted to an insurance company) tends to be between $175-300 for 45 minutes. I can imagine a "concierge medicine" version of a therapist that might charge $1000 to travel to the patient and/or be available during non-standard hours.
   60. Perro(s) Posted: June 25, 2012 at 09:39 AM (#4165498)
Don't you have a hot yoga session followed by an hour of dreamwalking to do or something?


Lucid neckstabbing.
   61. Perro(s) Posted: June 25, 2012 at 09:48 AM (#4165500)
Mental issues ARE physical issues. The curious thing is how human consciousness can work to resolve these physical issues. And almost all talk therapies work to identify ways to ACT to resolve issues. All medicine is part hokum to get people to act. As many studies have shown, antidepressants work no better than a sugar pill.
   62. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 25, 2012 at 09:52 AM (#4165503)
Lucid neckstabbing.


Dreeeeeeam weaver. I believe we can reach the morning liiiiight.
   63. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: June 25, 2012 at 09:54 AM (#4165505)
   64. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 25, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4165508)
   65. Bob Tufts Posted: June 25, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4165570)
I'm kind of shocked at the luddite-like level of responses here regarding enhancing brain function. It's not an excuse - it's an attempt to restore order and focus.

At this time, psychiatrists, psychologists and other doctors are all examining brain function and trying to address and quantify cures for all forms of illnesses - alzheimer's, amyloidosis, potential for regenerating/healing and tumors included.

As I said on another thread, I have been told by doctors and pharma companies that were are 50 years away from progress in treating brain tumors with the same succes that we do blood-based cancers.

You sound like old fashioned scouts resisting a new idea/frontier - or Arthur determing that a woman is a witch in "Holy Grail".
   66. Lassus Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4165646)
I'm kind of shocked at the luddite-like level of responses here regarding enhancing brain function.

You know where you don't need science or brains? The swamp.
   67. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4165678)
You know where you don't need science or brains? The swamp.


Never draft a guy who has an ugly girlfriend.
   68. Spahn Insane Posted: June 25, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4165682)
Keefe hasn't weighed in on this thread yet? Seriously? #### that, I'm outta here.
   69. Lassus Posted: June 25, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4165772)
Never draft a guy who has an ugly girlfriend.

I'm glad that your support for a lack of professional therapy is to cite regular folk spouting utterly dumbass crap about other people's brains.
   70. Swedish Chef Posted: June 25, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4165779)
Keefe hasn't weighed in on this thread yet? Seriously? #### that, I'm outta here.

Bet he's busy having his regular therapy session with a quart of Bushmills.
   71. Bhaakon Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:01 AM (#4166337)
Mental issues ARE physical issues. The curious thing is how human consciousness can work to resolve these physical issues. And almost all talk therapies work to identify ways to ACT to resolve issues. All medicine is part hokum to get people to act. As many studies have shown, antidepressants work no better than a sugar pill.


Minor strains and sprains are mental issues. Why am I wasting my time and money on aspirin and ice packs then?
   72. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 26, 2012 at 07:47 AM (#4166363)
I'm glad that your support for a lack of professional therapy is to cite regular folk spouting utterly dumbass crap about other people's brains.


What exactly is your defense of the therapy industry, T?
   73. Lassus Posted: June 26, 2012 at 07:56 AM (#4166368)
What exactly is your defense of the therapy industry, T?

As it was your scare-italics term, you first.
   74. Lassus Posted: June 26, 2012 at 07:58 AM (#4166369)
Whoops. Misread "defense" as "definition" and can't correct as the site limps along sans edit.

Let me muse for a moment prior to answering, as I'm at work.
   75. Lassus Posted: June 26, 2012 at 08:37 AM (#4166388)
I have no defense for an "industry", as it seems your indictment is that people over-charge and can be stupid. Water is also wet.

My defense is for the practice of professional therapy is that study and education brings better results for those needing assistance with their mental state than the moron you quoted in #67.

If you think an offer of killing those who physically or emotionally harm those you care about is going to help people - as opposed to yourself - feel free to stick with it. If you feel like telling people who are experiencing various levels of depression to get drunk to feel better, go ahead. If you think everyone in small-town America is by default going to have a supportive friend or family while going through sexual or gender identity issues and contemplating suicide as a result, mark that as your primary advice. I am simply shocked that you think these things are objectively intelligent positions.
   76. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: June 26, 2012 at 08:46 AM (#4166396)
If you think an offer of killing those who physically or emotionally harm those you care about is going to help people - as opposed to yourself - feel free to stick with it. If you feel like telling people who are experiencing various levels of depression to get drunk to feel better, go ahead. If you think everyone in small-town America is by default going to have a supportive friend or family while going through sexual or gender identity issues and contemplating suicide as a result, mark that as your primary advice. I am simply shocked that you think these things are objectively intelligent positions.


The outsourcing of caring is one of the problems, not one of the solutions.
   77. Lassus Posted: June 26, 2012 at 09:05 AM (#4166403)
The outsourcing of caring is one of the problems, not one of the solutions.

Is this an argument of some sort?

Plenty of people care, it doesn't make them any less stupid. On top of that, plenty of people don't care.
   78. Spahn Insane Posted: June 26, 2012 at 09:59 AM (#4166448)
Bet he's busy having his regular therapy session with a quart of Bushmills.

Nah, that was Larry Bowa. Keefe, good Irishman that he is, would never touch that colonialist swill. (Guess I always assumed Keefe was Irish Catholic; if not, then I stand corrected.) I'm thinking Keefe's more a Paddy guy.
   79. Rants Mulliniks Posted: June 26, 2012 at 10:57 AM (#4166521)
Well, a series of events this week resulted in me coming to the cold realization yesterday that my mother is most likely bipolar/manic depressive, so I'm interested in this thread. I'm pretty sure I won't suggest she take up drinking..... Sure makes me feel like an idiot after 20 years of adult life defending her ridiculous (in hindsight) behaviour, but I'm looking to it as a growth opportunity with other people in my life.
   80. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: June 26, 2012 at 11:02 AM (#4166532)
My sympathies. As I've mentioned before, not that I knew it at the time, but in hindsight my mother was a textbook case, with prescription drug abuse occasionally adding a special je ne sais quois to the whole ordeal. I seem to have inherited a tendency toward the condition myself, which I trust isn't the case with you.
   81. Rants Mulliniks Posted: June 26, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4166573)
No, I don't have any addictions thankfully, nor does my mother.
   82. Russ Posted: June 26, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4166654)
The outsourcing of caring is one of the problems, not one of the solutions.


Then you should consider yourself lucky enough to have access to people who are always willing to tell you the truth and to whom you are always willing to tell the truth. For example, if Rants says this:


Well, a series of events this week resulted in me coming to the cold realization yesterday that my mother is most likely bipolar/manic depressive, so I'm interested in this thread.


why did no one ever point it out to him?

My mother is a pathological liar and manipulates people. She told a bunch of people in our family that we were going to name our unborn child after my aunt (my mom's sister). Which was untrue, it was basically a ploy to get us to name the child after her sister. If this had happened before I went through a very successful period of therapy, I would have blamed myself, tried to convince my wife to change our selected names to appease my mother, and generally be so stressed out that it would have affected my work. Now, I just let it go and realize that this is my mother, I love her, but I can't let her flaws ruin my life. And, of course, in hindsight it's easy to say "Of course, you dummy." But when you've grown up in a certain environment and no one around you ever tells you that what your parents are doing is not OK, you don't see that. My therapist gave me someone who was unattached to my life that I could talk through my problems with without restraint. It was an insanely valuable life experience and it allowed me to have my first functional relationship with a woman (a wonderful woman that I later married). So that's where I'm coming from when I say:

a) Going to the therapist is like having a personal trainer to lose weight/stay in shape. It doesn't work for everyone, some guides are better than others, the responsibility for actually making progress is completely dependent on you. I still can't decide if it should be covered by publicly funded insurance (even though in my case, going to therapy absolutely had a tremendous positive impact on my life), but it can certainly have value for some people. And it's possible that I would have been able to work this all out on my own (probable, actually). However, it was definitely easier to be in a committed relationship with my therapist (just like paying for a gym membership can help some people stay dedicated to staying in shape).

b) Taking medication for psychological problems sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary, but mostly it's overprescribed in the general population as the effects are usually no better than a placebo unless you have a severe chemical imbalance. If people are not sure that you need medication, you probably don't. However, like in a), sometimes it does work for some people.

c) Some people will obviously never need either (just like those annoying people that never need to go to the gym). These people have discipline, clear heads, and an innate ability to manage their stress and their problems and good on them. But just because you're one of the people that don't need therapy, that doesn't make it not useful for others.

   83. Rants Mulliniks Posted: June 26, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4166840)
Thanks Russ. Many people had tried to point it out to me, including my father over the last 20 years since their divorce (no saint himself, but my perception of him is now very different), and my wonderful, patient, understanding wife. But I vehemently defended my mother at every turn, I suppose just like she had trained me to do. I just found that I couldn't explain away her actions and statements from the past week, so I have a new perspective now.
   84. Russ Posted: June 26, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4166863)
Many people had tried to point it out to me, including my father over the last 20 years since their divorce (no saint himself, but my perception of him is now very different), and my wonderful, patient, understanding wife. But I vehemently defended my mother at every turn, I suppose just like she had trained me to do. I just found that I couldn't explain away her actions and statements from the past week, so I have a new perspective now.


It doesn't take much training to get a son to defend his mother; that's basically evolution. In any case, if you feel like you need some outside perspective, you should ask any therapist friends you know (or friends with therapists) for recommendations. Obviously you won't want to go to your friends' therapists, but they should be able to recommend a few people. It may not work for you, not a good format, not a good fit with the people you try, etc. But it might and it can help you to get over the hump and basically help you to sort through things in a way that you might have trouble doing with someone you're not personally involved with.
   85. cardsfanboy Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:00 PM (#4166893)
I'm kind of shocked at the luddite-like level of responses here regarding enhancing brain function. It's not an excuse - it's an attempt to restore order and focus.

At this time, psychiatrists, psychologists and other doctors are all examining brain function and trying to address and quantify cures for all forms of illnesses - alzheimer's, amyloidosis, potential for regenerating/healing and tumors included.

As I said on another thread, I have been told by doctors and pharma companies that were are 50 years away from progress in treating brain tumors with the same succes that we do blood-based cancers.

You sound like old fashioned scouts resisting a new idea/frontier - or Arthur determing that a woman is a witch in "Holy Grail".


I didn't think anyone was resisting medical advances in the brain, but many were scoffing at the silly notion of talking out ones problems can cure you. Most recent studies suggest that in trauma cases, that is most likely the worse advice imagineable. On a lesser scale, it's logical to assume that talking about the problems could create a mental block that actually didn't exist.

That is in regards to the therapy philosophies that are designed mostly to pay someone to listen to your problems and try to have you self correct.

There are very valid methods being used within the field, as mentioned above about using visualization techniques etc to improve your thought process on the task at hand, but anything that involves you talking about the past, is more likely harmful than helpful.
   86. Russ Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4166914)
There are very valid methods being used within the field, as mentioned above about using visualization techniques etc to improve your thought process on the task at hand, but anything that involves you talking about the past, is more likely harmful than helpful.


Yes, we should certainly rely on the familiar saying: Those who simply forget the past are certainly never going to have to repeat it.

   87. cardsfanboy Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4166923)
Yes, we should certainly rely on the familiar saying: Those who simply forget the past are certainly never going to have to repeat it.


No, but dwelling on it on personal issues is harmful to the brain. Those who undergo trauma counseling that involves reliving the experience are more likely to commit suicide than those who don't(along with a host of other negative consequences).

On the individual level, you do not need to rehash the past to fix the present. The past is just a dwelling point to excuse your current condition. If you were beaned and are now not staying in the box due to a fear of being beaned again, which is the better cure. 1. rehash the beaning over and over with your psychologist so that you can confidently say to yourself, I can stay in the box. 2. go to the plate and have a pitcher throw a couple hundred pitches until you get over the psychological hangup? To me the first option is just going to reinforce the notion that "I got beaned" the second is going to say "I've seen thousands of pitches and have been beaned that one time".
   88. Russ Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4166953)
Those who undergo trauma counseling that involves reliving the experience are more likely to commit suicide than those who don't


::Citation needed::

1. rehash the beaning over and over with your psychologist so that you can confidently say to yourself, I can stay in the box.


Well, I doubt that any self-respecting psychologist would actually rehash the beaning over and over. My guess is that they would ask the person about what they're feeling and how it relates to the beaning. They would probably get them to put into words the fear, try to get it outside of their head and into words that they can manage. They might see if the fear relates to other experiences that the person has had in their life, either to see if this experience was different (in which the victim would maybe be able to apply some already learned coping skills) or the same (in which case the fear of the beaning may be related to something that the victim is not really able to relate to).

Our brains are complicated, there is rarely a black and white "you do not need to " associated with overcoming emotional distress. Usually it's "you need to try as many things as possible, because even though you have five different hammers, what you're trying to hit is not a nail".

   89. Perro(s) Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4166972)
Thanks for those personal anecdotes. It's rather easy to be Skip Bayless on subjects we have neither the experience nor expertise to critique or discuss.

Relationships with your parents are difficult enough when they aren't lunatics. Talking to someone who can help you explore your self-defeating patterns can be very helpful. Basically it's a form of coaching more than medicine. I am still prone to get involved in some screwy relationships, but I can usually stop and see what I'm doing now instead of merely diving off the deep end. The hard part is understanding how our emotions cause us to go against the truth.

Love is often a four-letter word.
   90. Perro(s) Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:49 PM (#4166980)
I love Ozzie, but he's self-admittedly nuts. And I have nothing against alcohol except that it's probably the number one enabler of denial that exists.
   91. Perro(s) Posted: June 26, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4166987)
PTSD definitely requires professional expertise.
   92. Rants Mulliniks Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4167006)
I wouldn't say I need to see a therapist for myself; maybe I'll change my mind down the road. Just coming to this realization of what the truth is has been very therapeutic, in that it explains so much. I certainly don't have any regrets. I'm thinking about professional help more for advice as to how I can confront her with this realization, because I think its obvious I have to do that. Maybe its not, but I'm going ask the appropriate people in the field of mental health to find out. I obviously want to maintain our relatioship, but it will be on different terms.
   93. cardsfanboy Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4167008)
::Citation needed::


There is no convincing evidence that psychological debriefing or group
debriefing are effective in reducing PTSD. CISD/CISM interventions have not been
shown to be effective in either eliminating or lessening the development of PTSD and
should not be used for rescuers following a potentially traumatizing event. There is
evidence that CISD/CISM interventions may have deleterious effects by interfering with
normative post-trauma reduction resiliency. (II)
One study

First few paragraphs of the article gives examples. Unfortunately they don't link their sources and a quick search only brings up references to this article


Our brains are complicated, there is rarely a black and white "you do not need to " associated with overcoming emotional distress. Usually it's "you need to try as many things as possible, because even though you have five different hammers, what you're trying to hit is not a nail".


Absolutely agree, I'm just in the boat that thinks the perceived concept of what constitutes analysis is the wrong path. (I'm talking about sit in the couch and tell us what you are feeling, happened etc and work it out on your own---if you want to be considered a science/medicine, the field needs to be more proactive in it's approach to handling the situations)

I'm not in the insane Tom Cruise mode that thinks psychology is bad, just think that the thought of talking through your problems and not actually having someone help you do anything about it, other than being a sounding board, is not a valid solution.
   94. Perro(s) Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4167019)
CFB -- you appear to have used PTSD to stand in for all problems. I don't in any way deny that talk therapy is contraindicated for PTSD.
   95. Bob Tufts Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4167029)
It's not just about talking - it's about interaction and work, and that is why I am a believer in the cognitive approach.

From the AICT website:

"Cognitive-behavioral therapy is a relatively short-term, focused psychotherapy for a wide range of psychological problems including depression, anxiety, anger, marital conflict, loneliness, panic, fears, eating disorders, substance abuse, alcohol abuse and dependence and personality problems. The focus of therapy is on how you are thinking, behaving, and communicating today rather than on your early childhood experiences. The therapist assists the patient in identifying specific distortions (using cognitive assessment) and biases in thinking and provides guidance on how to change this thinking.

Cognitive therapy helps the patient learn effective self-help skills that are used in homework assignments that help you change the way you think, feel and behave now. Cognitive-behavioral therapy is action-oriented, practical, rational, and helps the patient gain independence and effectiveness in dealing with real-life issues."



   96. Perro(s) Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4167031)
I wouldn't say I need to see a therapist for myself; maybe I'll change my mind down the road. Just coming to this realization of what the truth is has been very therapeutic, in that it explains so much. I certainly don't have any regrets. I'm thinking about professional help more for advice as to how I can confront her with this realization, because I think its obvious I have to do that. Maybe its not, but I'm going ask the appropriate people in the field of mental health to find out. I obviously want to maintain our relatioship, but it will be on different terms.


The best response to attempted emotional manipulation and other unwanted contact is no response at all. You have to find ways to avoid getting caught up in the emotional drama. You will slip up again, but don't let that stop you. I wrote a letter to myself detailing the ways the person manipulated me as a reminder until my realization stabilized. Best of luck.
   97. Perro(s) Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4167032)
I'm not suggesting cutting off contact, but dealing with it on your own well-founded terms.
   98. cardsfanboy Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4167040)
CFB -- you appear to have used PTSD to stand in for all problems. I don't in any way deny that talk therapy is contraindicated for PTSD.


I argue that the larger issues aren't helped by talk therapy, what makes you think smaller issues would be helped?

I'm mostly attacking the perceived view of what psychotherapy is. The reality is/can be somewhat different. I think that a large percentage of therapy is either a scam or good people not realizing they are doing harm(see different versions of chiropractice for another such situation) When it moves away from the couch into other areas, it's a much better tool.
   99. Rants Mulliniks Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4167060)
The best response to attempted emotional manipulation and other unwanted contact is no response at all. You have to find ways to avoid getting caught up in the emotional drama. You will slip up again, but don't let that stop you. I wrote a letter to myself detailing the ways the person manipulated me as a reminder until my realization stabilized. Best of luck.


Thanks, I was planning on that (not responding to the BS). I really have to thank my wife, she's been so perceptive and patient over the last 7+ years that we've been together. It turns out everything she said was correct despite my protestations (she has an adult education background and lots of experience dealing with irrational people in classroom setting with no support from her administration), so I'm going to listen to her more from now on.

   100. Perro(s) Posted: June 26, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4167062)
I argue that the larger issues aren't helped by talk therapy, what makes you think smaller issues would be helped?


See coaching above. That a straw man has no brains is irrelevant.
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