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Wednesday, August 11, 2010

Pearlman: Edmonds deserves final moment of glory before riding into retirement

Holy craplacks! What giant irradiated bug is up Pearlman’s ass?

In a couple of months, he will almost certainly join them.

Them, Shawn Green and Reggie Sanders. Them, Steve Finley and Travis Fryman. Them, Mo Vaughn and Luis Gonzalez. Them, Bret Boone and Bernie Williams.

Them.

They are the great-but-not-legendary ballplayers of the late 1990s and early 2000s; a collection of athletically superior men whose achievements and statistics—while significantly above average—will serve to land them spring training instructor gigs, endless invitations to speak at Rotary breakfasts and a spot in the hometown newspaper’s semi-annual What Ever Happened To ... feature spread.

In other words: Yawn.

Such is life for the retired non-Hall of Famer.

Repoz Posted: August 11, 2010 at 08:58 PM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, brewers, hall of fame, history, reds, sabermetrics

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   1. BDC Posted: August 11, 2010 at 09:16 PM (#3614163)
I am not resigned to the shutting away of loving hearts in the hard ground.
So it is, and so it will be, for so it has been, time out of mind:
Into the darkness they go, the wise and the lovely. Crowned
With lilies and with laurel they go; but I am not resigned.
   2. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: August 11, 2010 at 09:23 PM (#3614168)
That's a great poem, Dernier.
   3. danup Posted: August 11, 2010 at 09:33 PM (#3614180)
WAR:
      
Jim Edmonds68.3
  Bernie Williams
47.3
    Luis Gonzalez
46.3
Jim Edmonds 00
-0542.9
     Steve Finley
40.5
   Reggie Sanders
38.4
    Travis Fryman
32.5
      Shawn Green
29.4
        Mo Vaughn
25.8
       Bret Boone
21.4 

The guy can't even catch a break in his valedictory articles.
   4. Rich Rifkin Posted: August 11, 2010 at 09:49 PM (#3614200)
I don't know for sure if Jim Edmonds (68.3 WAR) will be inducted into the HOF. However, he is (for career value) a credible candidate. None of those other guys is even remotely close to HOF worthy.

Brett Boone* 21.40

*One thought on the Boones: while I know Aaron Boone (9.5 WAR) hit an important home run for the Yankees in the post-season (if I recall correctly, it was an extra inning walk off job to beat the Red Sox in the ALCS), it baffles me that he now has a media career.

It seems like the fact that he was born into a great baseball family and notably his brother Brett was a very good player must have aided him. It can't be based on his greatness as a player, a la Dave Winfield or Orel Hershiser. Aaron Boone doesn't speak all that well and his voice always sounds hoarse. I haven't heard him say anything remotely funny or clever on BB2night. He seems to have no chemistry with other broadcasters on games; he mostly just gets in the way as the third man in the booth. And he's not "a good old boy" like John Kruk. I don't see how he has that job.
   5. Spahn Insane Posted: August 11, 2010 at 09:51 PM (#3614202)
#3--I was just gonna say, one of these things is not like the others. Edmonds is clearly a better HOF candidate than any of those guys. Only Williams even has an argument.
   6. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: August 11, 2010 at 10:08 PM (#3614212)
I love Jim Edmonds, but I suspect he's gonna get Trammelled.
   7. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 11, 2010 at 10:18 PM (#3614222)
*One thought on the Boones:


I was watching Game Six of the 1980 World Series the other day, and the announcer noted that Ray Boone, father of Phillies catcher Bob, had been on the field before the game playing with his grandsons Aaron and Bret. That was pretty cool.
   8. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: August 11, 2010 at 10:21 PM (#3614224)
For a second there, I thought Pearlman had written a positive article. I looked outside and pigs weren't flying so I read the excerpt.
   9. Greg K Posted: August 11, 2010 at 10:33 PM (#3614231)
In other words: Yawn.

It's weird, I have an entirely different reaction. I find the Hall of Very Good guys to be the most interesting players of every era. Probably because growing up I had heard all about Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Robinson etc., I find I am now more interested in the tiers below them.

I mean, how interesting is a guy who's good at everything anyway?
   10. Lars6788 Posted: August 11, 2010 at 10:56 PM (#3614240)
The 1990s was when I first started getting interested in baseball and I now understand how one era's long-time baseball stars kind of fade away into relative obscurity off-the-field after being very good professionals.

The last time I checked he was a 25-year old hot shot outfielder for the Angels or perhaps a 31-year old star in centerfield for the Cardinals.

Time flies though and I guess it is refreshing to see 40-year old Jim Edmonds get one last hurrah as an active player before falling into obscurity.
   11. Justin T is going to crush some tacos Thursday Posted: August 11, 2010 at 11:10 PM (#3614244)
I love Jim Edmonds, but I suspect he's gonna get Trammelled.

Which is funny, because I can't stand him but I suspect he's going to get in before it's all said and done.
   12. James Kannengieser Posted: August 11, 2010 at 11:10 PM (#3614245)
Pearlman is obsessed -- OBSESSED -- with pointing out how supposedly pathetic the post-athletics portion of pro athletes' lives are. This particular excuse to tear down "jocks", subjected to a life of "endless invitations to speak at Rotary breakfasts and a spot in the hometown newspaper's semi-annual What Ever Happened To ... feature spread", is disguised as a piece praising Jim Edmonds. Pearlman is truly loathable.
   13. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: August 11, 2010 at 11:19 PM (#3614251)
Pearlman is obsessed -- OBSESSED -- with pointing out how supposedly pathetic the post-athletics portion of pro athletes' lives are.

I can think of worse fates than living off investments, watching your kids grow up, playing golf, doing some charity work, and dicking around at Spring Training every year. Not that all retired ballplayers are in a position to do that, but a number of them are. Edmonds certainly will be.
   14. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: August 11, 2010 at 11:42 PM (#3614254)
Final moment of glory? How about shooting him out of a cannon?
   15. asinwreck Posted: August 12, 2010 at 12:11 AM (#3614272)
Pearlman sometimes reminds me of Dick Young in his gratuitous nastiness. A bug up Young's ass is pretty much what killed the old sportswriter, and appears to be wearing away at this guy.
   16. Steve Treder Posted: August 12, 2010 at 12:11 AM (#3614273)
I find the Hall of Very Good guys to be the most interesting players of every era.

Me too. Unless, perhaps, the Hall of Long-Careered Journeyman guys beat them out.
   17. Steve Treder Posted: August 12, 2010 at 12:14 AM (#3614276)
Pearlman is truly loathable.

I believe one E.A. Poe put it this way: "Loathsome, detestable putrescence."
   18. Buzzards Bay Posted: August 12, 2010 at 01:33 AM (#3614319)
glass 1/2 full
glass half empty
lemons
lemonade
mosquitos with EEE
and mosquitos without
EEE
   19. asdf1234 Posted: August 12, 2010 at 01:57 AM (#3614330)
While I appreciate the tone of Pearlman's article, he has zero understanding of how great Edmonds was. Really, Steve Finley? The guy has a better OPS+ than Jim Rice and won eight GGs in center. He remains reviled by Carlos Zambrano and Cubs fans everywhere. A little respect, please.

And color me surprised with how poorly Shawn Green stacks up in WAR.
   20. McCoy Posted: August 12, 2010 at 03:05 AM (#3614356)
worst trade ever.
   21. DanG Posted: August 12, 2010 at 03:33 AM (#3614362)
Highest WAR, 1300+ G in CF

Rk               Player WAR/pos    PA From   To
1               Ty Cobb   159.4 13068 1905 1928 H
2           Willie Mays   154.7 12493 1951 1973 H
3          Tris Speaker   133.0 11988 1907 1928 H
4         Mickey Mantle   120.2  9909 1951 1968 H
5          Joe DiMaggio    83.6  7671 1936 1951 H
6           Ken Griffey    78.4 11304 1989 2010
7           Jim Edmonds    68.3  7954 1993 2010
8           Duke Snider    67.5  8237 1947 1964 H
9          Kenny Lofton    65.3  9234 1991 2007
10         Andruw Jones    58.9  8112 1996 2010
11       Richie Ashburn    58.0  9736 1948 1962 H
12         Willie Davis    57.2  9822 1960 1979
13       Carlos Beltran    55.0  6968 1998 2010
14         Cesar Cedeno    52.2  8133 1970 1986
15            Max Carey    50.6 10770 1910 1929 H
16           Chet Lemon    49.9  7872 1975 1990
17          Vada Pinson    49.3 10403 1958 1975
18         Mike Cameron    47.4  7615 1995 2010
19           Larry Doby    47.4  6302 1947 1959 H
20      Bernie Williams    47.3  9053 1991 2006
21            Fred Lynn    47.3  7923 1974 1990
22            Edd Roush    46.5  8156 1913 1931 H
23         Brett Butler    46.5  9545 1981 1997
24         Mike Griffin    45.2  6848 1887 1898
25   George Van Haltren    45.1  9017 1887 1903
26         Earl Averill    45.0  7215 1929 1941 H
27        Kirby Puckett    44.8  7831 1984 1995 H 
   22. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 12, 2010 at 03:50 AM (#3614365)
Me too. Unless, perhaps, the Hall of Long-Careered Journeyman guys beat them out.

One branch of that is "Guys Who Just Keep Playing, Regardless of Level"

Rickey Henderson
Pat Borders
Julio Franco

are the three that jump to mind.
   23. Dale Sams Posted: August 12, 2010 at 04:12 AM (#3614375)
WAR:
Jim Edmonds: 68.3


What is it good for?
   24. ColonelTom Posted: August 12, 2010 at 04:43 AM (#3614386)
Deserve's got nothin' to do with it.
   25. base ball chick Posted: August 12, 2010 at 05:11 AM (#3614400)
hard for me to believe that there prolly ARE a lot of people out there who don't think jim edmonds should go in the HOF (it figures that one of them is pearlman)

of course, there are a lot of poeple think larry walker shouldn't go in neither

to compare jim edmonds to bret boone on ANY stat is like comparing lance berkman to jeff keppinger

- makes me wonder why pearlman is such a hate filled guy. he kind of reminds me of the ugly/fat grrl who was a slumpbuster or something and found out and decided to make the rest of her life about revenging herself on the rest of the kind of female humanity who these males prefer to screw (and get as long as they are famous and have enough $$$ to keep em)
   26. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: August 12, 2010 at 05:21 AM (#3614402)
I initially read this title (in the sidebar) as "Pearlman deserves final moment of glory before riding into retirement".
   27. cardsfanboy Posted: August 12, 2010 at 05:58 AM (#3614411)
I initially read this title (in the sidebar) as "Pearlman deserves final moment of glory before riding into retirement".


optimist.
   28. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: August 12, 2010 at 06:05 AM (#3614412)
I personally don't see Edmonds as any kind of serious Hall of Fame threat at all. His counting stats simply aren't that impressive - I think he's falling through the cracks when the time comes.
   29. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: August 12, 2010 at 06:06 AM (#3614413)
he owns a horse?

or do we all get to ride into retirement?
   30. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: August 12, 2010 at 06:09 AM (#3614414)
I personally don't see Edmonds as any kind of serious Hall of Fame threat at all. His counting stats simply aren't that impressive - I think he's falling through the cracks when the time comes.

And why shouldn't his total/peak value be the standard instead of his "counting stats"?
   31. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: August 12, 2010 at 06:49 AM (#3614420)
And why shouldn't his total/peak value be the standard instead of his "counting stats"?


I'm not passing judgment on his actual value; I'm just saying what I think will happen. His peak was terrific, but my guess is that it didn't register all that strongly on the radar. It's all about perception.
   32. Steve Phillips' Hot Cougar (DrStankus) Posted: August 12, 2010 at 07:12 AM (#3614425)
@24...wondering why it took so long
   33. bobm Posted: August 12, 2010 at 11:41 AM (#3614448)
I don't know if Edmonds gets into the HoF, but if he does his plaque could read, "Won eight Gold Gloves by making catches look harder than necessary."
   34. Levi Stahl Posted: August 12, 2010 at 01:22 PM (#3614483)
I'll be astonished if Edmonds makes the hall, though I think he's clearly deserving (and I hope he does, as he's one of my favorite players). He'll suffer from

1) sportswriters' persistent failure to understand that CF is a much more demanding position than the corners, and thus that offense there is far more valuable
2) relative lack of ASG appearances because of the way the generic OF category works against CFers
3) low counting stats
4) lack of appreciation (or, let's be honest, even notice) of his awesome OBP
5) the fact that, outside the BTF-style serious fan base, he's never been regarded as a HOF-type player. I may be wrong, but it's hard to picture, say, Joe Morgan or any of the ESPN goons casually referring to him, even in his prime, as a future Hall of Famer.

I fear that Pearlman's misunderstanding of his value is probably representative of the membership of the BBWAA on Jimmy. If he weren't in Cincinnati, I'd wish with all my heart for his team to make the post-season and for him to go on a ridiculous tear that gives some of those all-important BIG MOMENTS that might make the writers look at him anew.

But since he's a Red, I hope he spends October golfing and ironing his pink half-shirts.
   35. BDC Posted: August 12, 2010 at 01:31 PM (#3614490)
Good list, Levi, and we might add 6) Angels finally broke through to win the World Series after Edmonds left; Cardinals did win with him, but only when he was clearly in decline.

This shouldn't matter (Edmonds had a long, and good, postseason record), but sometimes a player catches the right breaks when it comes to championships and his HOF case is clearly boosted thereby (Bruce Sutter, Kirby Puckett, Jack Morris). And sometimes the timing leaves voters without a happy narrative.
   36. dlf Posted: August 12, 2010 at 01:40 PM (#3614506)
I wonder if there isn't 7) some unspoken assumptions about PEDs at play here. Edmonds' rate stats in California during his 20s were good, but became incredible in his 30s after going to join Tony LaRussa, the apparent Typhoid Mary of this saga.
   37. Levi Stahl Posted: August 12, 2010 at 01:44 PM (#3614510)
dlf,
I actually haven't really heard much, if any, PED speculation about Edmonds, which does seem odd given the coincidence of his best years and his joining a team with Mark McGwire on it. Maybe I'm just not hanging out in the right circles?
   38. cardsfanboy Posted: August 12, 2010 at 03:22 PM (#3614627)
actually haven't really heard much, if any, PED speculation about Edmonds, which does seem odd given the coincidence of his best years and his joining a team with Mark McGwire on it. Maybe I'm just not hanging out in the right circles?


there is plenty of speculation about it in St Louis, but since this is a town that rarely likes to attack their "favorite sons" most of the speculation is kept to a minimum in printed circles.
   39. Levi Stahl Posted: August 12, 2010 at 03:59 PM (#3614678)
there is plenty of speculation about it in St Louis,


Yet another way in which it's better to be a Cardinals fan living up here in Chicago than down in St. Louis itself . . .
   40. Steve Treder Posted: August 12, 2010 at 04:07 PM (#3614688)
I don't know if Edmonds gets into the HoF, but if he does his plaque could read, "Won eight Gold Gloves by making catches look harder than necessary."

RDF

I agree with those who say that Edmonds is HOF-worthy, but almost certainly won't get voted in.
   41. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 12, 2010 at 04:17 PM (#3614696)
Wouldn't his 40 year old performance in "steroid free" 2010 counter any PED accusations?

If he never came back from his first swoon a few years ago, he'd definitely seen be a PED-abuser.
   42. tjm1 Posted: August 13, 2010 at 10:50 AM (#3615363)
9 Kenny Lofton 65.3 9234 1991 2007


This is the most interesting line in that table: Kenny Lofton very closely behind Duke Snider.
   43. Biscuit_pants Posted: August 13, 2010 at 12:25 PM (#3615372)

This is the most interesting line in that table: Kenny Lofton very closely behind Duke Snider.
If we are going solely on public impression I would think Lofton has a better chance at the HOF than Edmonds. When He and the Indians were good he was the considered the best player on that team, maybe not the best hitter but the best all around player.
   44. Spahn Insane Posted: August 13, 2010 at 12:35 PM (#3615377)
5) the fact that, outside the BTF-style serious fan base, he's never been regarded as a HOF-type player. I may be wrong, but it's hard to picture, say, Joe Morgan or any of the ESPN goons casually referring to him, even in his prime, as a future Hall of Famer.

That's very true; he's certainly no Omar Vizquel.

Yet another way in which it's better to be a Cardinals fan living up here in Chicago than down in St. Louis itself . . .

Another being the fact that St. Louis had its 50th 90-degree day of the year yesterday. Jesus H Christ. I'm dying in Chicago this year as it is, and we've only had something like 18 official 90s.
   45. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 13, 2010 at 12:52 PM (#3615383)
My understanding is that, even at the time, Edmonds was rumored to be a heavy PED guy- even in comparison to the rest of the league. And that's consistent with the team he played on and his late, unexpectedly high peak.

He's Bernie Williams with injections. Whether that's a HoFer in the current era remains to be seen.
   46. BDC Posted: August 13, 2010 at 01:53 PM (#3615424)
we've only had something like 18 official 90s

Fascinating (he says, after 13 straight 100-degree days in North Texas) :-)
   47. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 13, 2010 at 02:01 PM (#3615433)
Fascinating (he says, after 13 straight 100-degree days in North Texas) :-)


Tell us when your relative humidity climbs above 60%. 85 degrees at 75% humidity is far worse than 100 degrees at 30% humidity.
   48. DanG Posted: August 13, 2010 at 03:23 PM (#3615539)
Edmonds was rumored to be a heavy PED guy
Yeah, definitely a circumstantial PED case around him.

Here's a good discussion of Edmonds at Fangraphs from last year.

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