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Tuesday, July 30, 2013

Peavy traded to Red Sox

The White Sox agreed to a trade Tuesday night that would send Jake Peavy to the Boston Red Sox.

The trade, which is pending the review of Peavy’s medical reports, is part of a three-way deal that includes the Detroit Tigers.

The White Sox are set to receive at least outfielder Avisail Garcia from Detroit in the trade. Boston infielder Jose Iglesias also is reportedly involved in the deal, though where he would land is still unclear.

Peavy was held out of Tuesday night’s start so the White Sox didn’t hurt his value prior to Wednesday’s 3 p.m. CT trade deadline.

Thanks to Butch.

Repoz Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:14 PM | 163 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox, white sox

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   1. The Kentucky Gentleman, Mark Edward Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:31 PM (#4508566)
Gordon Edes says the Sox are getting some lower-level prospects as well...

I think I'm happy with this deal for the Sox. Garcia's lower minors numbers are unimpressive but he's learned to hit since he entered AA or so. I know folks kept touting Peavy as the best available SP, but he's frequently injured, no longer the ace he once was (though a very solid SP), and is owed about $15m in 2014.

I know some Sox fans who were expecting a king's ransom for the likes of Peavy, Crain, Thornton, Konerko, Rios, etc. But honestly the only valuable members of the Sox are Sale & Quintana...
   2. BurlyBuehrle Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:32 PM (#4508570)
Just first reaction...White Sox get the worst of this deal. Is Garcia even considered a prospect? My assumption given the light haul is that most/all of Peavy's contract is not being picked up by White Sox.

EDIT: Waiting to see who the lower-level guys are.
   3. Buck Coats Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:33 PM (#4508572)
Just saying "Sox" might be a little confusing here
   4. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:37 PM (#4508575)
I'd trust Williams and Co that they know what they are doing, but if the Sawx are willing to give up Iglesias for Peavy, I'd rather the Sox just took Iglesias.
   5. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:40 PM (#4508579)
Is Garcia even considered a prospect?

Of course. Both Sickels and Bless You Boys (Tigers blog) have him #2 in the Tigers' system. He's the Sox' favorite type of prospect -- a toolsy OFer. Were you expecting significantly more than the apparent package (B prospect + a few lesser prospects from Boston)?
   6. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:40 PM (#4508580)
As a Red Sox fan I hate this. I think Iglesias is going to be fine, he'll hit enough (not the .350 he's currently hitting of course but .240ish) to carry the ridiculous defense. No faith in Peavy to stay healthy enough to make a difference, none.
   7. frannyzoo Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4508583)
Tough on Iglesias, especially tough if he goes to the "We were sh*tty..." White Sox. Brutally tough. Here's hoping it's the Tigers and he can fill in well for the suspended Jhonny. Maybe knock in the winning run in Game X against the Red Sox during the playoffs.
   8. guajolote2 Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4508584)
Garcia is 22 years old and hitting .382/.428/.571 in AAA (albeit in only 144 abs). He hitting about .340 in over 400 PAs between AA and AAA the last two years. He's a prospect.
   9. The Kentucky Gentleman, Mark Edward Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:44 PM (#4508587)
Is Garcia even considered a prospect?


Come on. The guy just turned 22 and has hit about .350* between AA & AAA.

*- Granted, he doesn't walk much and it's only about 90 games. Scouts/prospect writers seem to like him a bit. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now. It's not like the White Sox were going to get a Matt Davidson/Tyler Skaggs/Adam Eaton package for Peavy anyway.
   10. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:49 PM (#4508592)
Garcia for Iglesias seems like a pretty good deal for the Tigers. Porcello should appreciate this deal a lot.
   11. Dan Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:52 PM (#4508596)
I hope that Ben Cherington chokes on his Wheaties tomorrow morning.
   12. Randomly Fluctuating Defensive Metric Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:56 PM (#4508603)
Fascinating trade. Think the White Sox made out really well. I'm sure some of their grizzled scouts are looking at Garcia and hoping for Magglio Ordonez II.
   13. asinwreck Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:57 PM (#4508604)
Hahn moved three guys (Thornton, Crain, Peavy) that should have been moved. I'm a little surprised Ramirez hasn't been moved given how many NL contenders have problems at SS. Rios limped off the field tonight, not exactly what you want to see in the last 24 hours before the deadline.

As for the haul, Garcia would seem a likely replacement for Rios now or next spring. His offensive profile is utterly in keeping with what the Sox love. With luck he'll have better results than any Sox offensive prospect of the 21st century.
   14. The District Attorney Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:02 AM (#4508607)
Heh... I wonder what the Red Sox front office's honest evaluation of Jose Iglesias is. Bill James seemed to be nuts about him. But I could also easily imagine a lot of their guys being ecstatic that they got the opportunity to sell high on a prospect who, looking at his career as a whole, wasn't working out.

This will be an interesting deal to track. On one hand, Iglesias doesn't have to hit much at all to be a good SS... on the other hand, he may be up to that challenge. And it's just as easy to imagine Garcia being either great or useless.
   15. Dan Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:03 AM (#4508608)
Well this deal is official. Cherington is definitely on the short list of worst GMs in MLB now.
   16. Sonic Youk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:03 AM (#4508609)
I dont think trading Iglesias is necessarily a horrible idea. Drew is the best option this year, Bogaerts is the best option next year, the current left side of the infield is untenable and they dont want to demote or bench Iggy... the problem is that this kind of too-smart thinking has lead to horrible decisions the last couple years.

Also, not to look down my nose at Peavy, who is a very fine pitcher, but another 2/3 guy isn't really worth it for the Red Sox. Lee is the only guy out there who could have added major value over what they have.
   17. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:03 AM (#4508610)
Contrarian response: Iglesias' bat is way over his head right now, and besides, he's blocking Xander Bogaerts, who at 20 has hit .298/.396/.495 across AA and AAA this season. I guess?

Dan, I don't love this trade either, but that's an overreaction.
   18. Dan Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:08 AM (#4508615)
I'm not saying it's the worst trade in history, but Cherington is just piling up a bunch of trades ranging from "meh" at the best to "what the #### was he thinking?" at the worst. He's shown an utter lack of creativity or ability to execute a long-term plan and he's continually trading cost controlled position players for overpaid and injured pitchers. At least this time it wasn't a closer!
   19. madvillain Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:11 AM (#4508619)
overpaid and injured pitchers.


Peavy isn't overpaid and he's been fairly durable since coming back from the lat tear. Pitchers get injured. On the face of it I think it's a pretty fair trade for all parties, nothing about this deal screams "robbery" to me, just 3 teams making a deal to try and help all parties.
   20. DKDC Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:12 AM (#4508621)
I said it on the other thread but I think this is a fantastic trade for the Red Sox. I guess it all depends on what you think of Iglesias.

He's young, so I guess there is some upside there, but set aside a couple fluky months and he's basically Cesar Izturis who strikes out a lot.
   21. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:19 AM (#4508623)
Francellis Montas seems kinda interesting. The other two guys, not really.
   22. zonk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:23 AM (#4508624)
I know Peavy isn't what he once was -- but beyond the HRs -- his secondary numbers look pretty darn good... He still K's people and he's actually showing the best control of his career (which is saying something, since he was always around 3.5/1 4/1 K/BB). I was tempted to say that the gopher balls are a function of pitching in comiskey, but looks like he actually had a bit of thing with them even back in San Diego.

I think it probably also ought to be noted that the Pale Hose defense has been utterly dreadful all year.

In short - I was actually a bit surprised to see that Peavy isn't really the shell of his former self I figured he was... He's certainly not what he once was - and health has become an issue... but being an NLer, I guess I figured he'd pretty much become a back rotation innings muncher -- I think he's a fair bit better than that, a legit #2/#3. I'm not sure he's all that less valuable than Garza, if at all.

If the price is just Iglesias - and primo defender or not, don't the Bosox actually have a couple more SSs similar to him at lower levels, even setting aside Boegarts? I.e., Vinicio and isn't Derek Gibson still around?

This seems like a clear win for the Red Sox to me and the prospect the White Sox got back likewise looks solid. I think the Tigers end up the losers in this one, though I understand why they did what they did.
   23. PJ Martinez Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:26 AM (#4508627)
Pretty sure every possible position on this trade has been staked out within the first 22 posts in this thread.
   24. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:28 AM (#4508629)
Montas was in the deal? Arrrgh. I know he's a lottery ticket but dammit.
   25. Sonic Youk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:30 AM (#4508631)
I was going to say that nobody is judging this based on Iglesias' fluky BABIP year, but then again if you told me in spring training that he'd be traded for Jake Peavy, I'd have laughed. Not a huge fan of this trade, but I'm definitely moving away from my original hatred of it.
   26. Walt Davis Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:32 AM (#4508633)
So far no money mentioned so this would seem very good for the White Sox.

Is it back to Middlebrooks at 3B for the Red Sox? That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or did I miss a trade?

Doesn't bode well for Peralta.
   27. McCoy Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:35 AM (#4508634)
I really wanted the Cubs to get him in the beginning of 2009. I'm really glad they didn't.
   28. DKDC Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:37 AM (#4508636)
Is it back to Middlebrooks at 3B for the Red Sox? That doesn't seem like a good idea. Or did I miss a trade?


Yes, you missed that tomorrow the Red Sox are trading Jackie Bradley Jr for David Wright.
   29. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:38 AM (#4508637)
Huh, the Red Sox once had a SS prospect who couldn't hit and they traded him. I believe Hanley Ramirez had a few decent years after the trade.
I'm in the same camp as the other Sawx posters here, this trade stinks. I was envisioning a infield for years to come with Iglesias and Bogaerts both putting together HOF careers...alas it is not to be.
   30. Textbook Editor Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:38 AM (#4508638)
What if Peralta does NOT get suspended? Does Iglesias play every day? Where? just as a defensive sub?
   31. BurlyBuehrle Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:43 AM (#4508642)
Yeah, my reaction was gut reaction. Taken a closer look at Garcia, and have to say my #2 above was probably wrong. Think this was, at a minimum, a fair trade. Perhaps the White Sox even won this one. Especially in perspective - Peavy was never going to be part of the next competitive White Sox team anyway.
   32. Dale Sams Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4508643)
Sox downgrade at 3B and SP (unless Dempster is moved, which he won't be for 13 million reasons)Well done.
   33. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:47 AM (#4508645)
Don't like the exchange of Garcia for Iglesias at all for the Tigers. Iglesias is a mirage, Garcia is going to be a stud.
   34. Dan Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:47 AM (#4508646)
What if Peralta does NOT get suspended? Does Iglesias play every day? Where? just as a defensive sub?


I'd guess they send him to AAA for everyday ABs until September if Peralta somehow evades suspension, but that seems unlikely anyway.
   35. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:50 AM (#4508647)
Peralta is getting suspended; might as well say 'what if Alan Trammell arrives in a time machine from 1984, what then?'
   36. The Kentucky Gentleman, Mark Edward Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:53 AM (#4508649)
The 3 lower-level prospects are classic lottery picks...
- Rondon seems like a stereotypical no-hit/good glove IF. Why was he moved from SS this year?
- Montas is a very hard thrower. Fair enough, White Sox can usually do something with that.
- Wendelken is your standard RP. OK.

I'm not sure I understand the Iglesias love. His glove must be absolutely fantastic because his minor league numbers are not so impressive. Do folks think his MLB numbers are closer to his talent level than his no-walk/no-power numbers in the minors? Or is his glove just that good that his offense doesn't really matter?
   37. Dan Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:56 AM (#4508651)
Another issue for me with this deal is that the Red Sox already had good SP depth, though some of the options like say Ranaudo, Barnes, and Rubby De La Rosa might not be quite ML ready. But a front 4 of Lackey/Lester/Doubront/Dempster with Workman as #5 isn't especially weak even if Buchholz doesn't throw another pitch in 2013. Meanwhile the infield depth at both SS and 3B behind Drew/Bogaerts/WMB is razor thin. If any of those 3 has a serious injury (especially a non Middlebrooks one), then the team is going to have a massive downgrade in the everyday lineup.
   38. Mattbert Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:59 AM (#4508654)
I'm not sure I understand the Iglesias love. His glove must be absolutely fantastic because his minor league numbers are not so impressive. Do folks think his MLB numbers are closer to his talent level than his no-walk/no-power numbers in the minors? Or is his glove just that good that his offense doesn't really matter?

No, his glove is not that good.

It's better.
   39. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:00 AM (#4508655)
Iglesias doesn't have to hit much to be worth a lineup spot with his awesome glove--the mostly-regular shortstop on the current best team in baseball is hitting .224/.269/.304 and his glove at this stage of his career is not as good as Iglesias'--but Iglesias might struggle to hit even .225 playing every day in the majors. If he ever figures it out well enough to hit even .260/.325/.350 he'll be a well above average player, but there's not really anything in his record to suggest he should be expected to.

Overall there probably aren't 30 people in the world right now who can play shortstop every day and provide more overall value than Jose Iglesias, so the Red Sox have probably traded away a starting-caliber player. He's going to have to at least hit .230, though.
   40. Dan Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:01 AM (#4508656)
I'm not sure I understand the Iglesias love. His glove must be absolutely fantastic because his minor league numbers are not so impressive. Do folks think his MLB numbers are closer to his talent level than his no-walk/no-power numbers in the minors? Or is his glove just that good that his offense doesn't really matter?


Iglesias is basically the same player as Andrelton Simmons. Would you trade Simmons plus 3 A ballers for the privilege of 1 1/3 years of Jake Peavy at nearly retail salary?

(I'm not saying Iglesias projects to put up the same kind of defensive season as Simmons is in 2013, but neither is Simmons a good bet to replicate this absurd season. Iglesias is in his class as a defender at SS though.)
   41. Sonic Youk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:01 AM (#4508657)
I'm not sure I understand the Iglesias love. His glove must be absolutely fantastic because his minor league numbers are not so impressive. Do folks think his MLB numbers are closer to his talent level than his no-walk/no-power numbers in the minors? Or is his glove just that good that his offense doesn't really matter?


entirely the latter. He is probably going to perennially win the AL GG. Nobody thinks he is going to hit, but he made some interesting strides this year, even aside from the crazy BABIP.

edit- cokes
   42. Textbook Editor Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:05 AM (#4508659)
Or is his glove just that good that his offense doesn't really matter?


It's crazy, scary good with the glove. I've seen him make plays I've not seen anyone make for a long time. I don't want to say since Ozzie, because I'm sure there's been as-good glove guys since then, but he's got that ability. The real question is can he hit enough to make the glove stick? The school of thought seems to be even with .240 BA & .300 OBP that might be enough given the glove.

At worst, he's probably Adam Everett. If he can figure out how to hit consistently at the ML level, he's much more than that.
   43. vivaelpujols Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:06 AM (#4508660)
Iglesias seems like a slightly better version of Pete Kozma, not sure why anyone gives a crap about him. Maybe a 1.5 WAR player going forward. Of course that's fairly valuable, but the Red Sox have Bogaerts so they have no need for Jose. Peavy's pretty underrated here. 8.5 fWAR over the past three years, he seems closer to a #1/2 starter than a #2/3 guy. Of course he is a big injury risk. Not sure about the prospects in this deal, it seems like those would be the biggest difference maker because Peavy for Iglesias straight up is a steal.
   44. Textbook Editor Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:07 AM (#4508661)
Cokes to many, many people...
   45. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:10 AM (#4508662)
I don't find "we have Bogaerts so we don't need Iglesias" a very strong argument. Last I checked there are 12-13 position player roster spots and baseball players occasionally get hurt, and even occasionally stop developing or go backwards.
   46. Sonic Youk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:19 AM (#4508666)
just because this is all Sox fans singing his praises, here's Keith Law in 2012:

“Iglesias is the best defensive shortstop prospect I’ve ever seen. He’s not the fastest or most athletic, but he’s the one most able to make plays and to take difficult plays and make them look routine.

There’s not much flash to Iglesias’ fielding; he gets in position, the ball disappears into his glove and it’s on its way to first base before your eyes have even adjusted from watching the ball on the ground. His hands and instincts are plus. He is not wide-ranging like an Ozzie Smith but will surprise with how many ground balls he reaches despite average-at-best running speed.

Iglesias’ swing is direct with good bat speed, and he has a little pop when he gets his arms extended, although in Fenway that probably will mean lots of doubles off the Monster but few home runs. He needs to avoid barring his lead arm, and so far he hasn’t shown much patience although he has shown he can make a lot of contact. If he can draw 50 walks a year or hit .300 regularly, he’s an All-Star, and if not, he’s still an above-average regular because of the potential value of his defense."
   47. Textbook Editor Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:21 AM (#4508668)
#46 just made me sniffle. Godspeed, Jose Gloveman. I will miss you.
   48. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:21 AM (#4508669)
Based on the scouting chatter (like Youk's quote above) it doesn't appear unreasonable to call Iglesias the best defensive shortstop since Ozzie.
   49. Walt Davis Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:22 AM (#4508670)
What if Peralta does NOT get suspended? Does Iglesias play every day? Where? just as a defensive sub?

Probably not likely but an option would be Iglesias or Peralta to 3B, Miggy to 1B, Fielder to DH, VMart to the bench. My guess is that's their optimal lineup with this group of players anyway.
   50. SteveM. Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:28 AM (#4508672)
I guess I am old because I want my shortstop bea defensive wizard first, a hitter second.
   51. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:31 AM (#4508673)
I just want my shortstop to be overall as good as possible. Though if the best shortstop available to me was Jose Iglesias I would probably seek to build a team around terrific infield defense and a pitching staff that gets grounders, and if I already had a pitching staff that gets grounders but doesn't miss that many bats I'd put extra value on an Iglesias type.
   52. bigglou115 Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:36 AM (#4508674)
@48 I've seen a lot of Iggy, and admittedly every game Simmons has played. Now, downgrading Simmons because I'm a Braves fan and I don't want to overrate him, those two are too close to call. That's a compliment to Iggy, they're both unreal.
   53. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:49 AM (#4508679)
#36,
You may have guessed from the many previous posts, yeah the glove is that good. If you already have enough offense, then this guy is your own personal Mark Belanger.
   54. something like a train wreck Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:57 AM (#4508684)
is Iglesias more valuable to the Tigers because of Cabrera's lack of range? i'm sure someone has studied the question, but i don't know the research.
   55. something like a train wreck Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:01 AM (#4508685)
double post
   56. Textbook Editor Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:15 AM (#4508688)
is Iglesias more valuable to the Tigers because of Cabrera's lack of range? i'm sure someone has studied the question, but i don't know the research.


I don't think one needs research to say with 97% certainty this makes him more valuable to the Tigers than, say, any team with a mobile, average 3B.

   57. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:17 AM (#4508690)
I don't think one needs research to say with 97% certainty this makes him more valuable to the Tigers than, say, any team with a mobile, average 3B.


And of course Miggy produces enough batting WAR to suffice for nearly both positions anyway. This is a very good move by Detroit if Iglesias can consistently hit the ball out of the infield.
   58. PreservedFish Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:30 AM (#4508691)
Remember when Yuniesky Betancourt was the next Ozzie Smith?
   59. Cooper Nielson Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:17 AM (#4508694)
Probably not likely but an option would be Iglesias or Peralta to 3B, Miggy to 1B, Fielder to DH, VMart to the bench. My guess is that's their optimal lineup with this group of players anyway.

Maybe, but V-Mart hit .385/.427/.583 in July, and is starting to look like the very good hitter he was before the injury.

If he's putting up an .850 OPS he's probably part of the optimal lineup, though swapping him and Fielder at 1B/DH might be a small defensive improvement. Maybe Peralta could move to 2B? Anyway, seems like a good problem to have.
   60. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:49 AM (#4508696)
Iglesias is basically the same player as Andrelton Simmons. Would you trade Simmons plus 3 A ballers for the privilege of 1 1/3 years of Jake Peavy at nearly retail salary?


1. Yes, of course.
2. Iglesias is nowhere near as good a player as Simmons.

This freakout is ridiculous. If Jose Iglesias is a regular in MLB for more than a year or two, I'll #### thumbtacks.
   61. Curse of the Andino Posted: July 31, 2013 at 04:11 AM (#4508697)
I live in Tampa/St. Pete.

All I'm saying is, the trade of Iglesias to Detroit gives the Rays a real LCS rival. And the only way to offset that is for everyone to get behind Chris Archer. And by getting behind, I mean, everyone needs to come to my place and watch episodes of Archer.

And by everyone, I mean, just the hot girls. You fellas can stay home.

Idiot trade by Cherington. FFS, I'm a huge O's fan, but I only grudgingly acknowledged JJ Hardy as an AS on the Terry Kennedy, '87 rule.
   62. Snowboy Posted: July 31, 2013 at 05:31 AM (#4508700)
What's the Terry Kennedy '87 rule?
Is it "The only reason he's an All-Star is because we stuffed the ballot boxes for him?"

If that's it, it's not a horrible rule. But that was Kennedy's fourth All-Star game. He had a 14 year catching career despite playing mostly in the 1980s and not having a very good reputation for throwing out base runners. He was College Baseball player of the year in 1976. And while Hardy may not be ARod at SS, he's defensively pretty steady and has some pop for the position. If Jeter had returned healthy or Jose Reyes didn't get injured, he wouldn't win the vote. But it's not impossible to suggest that he might have been selected this year even if he didn't win, considering the competition and how Baltimore is playing. And who should have been voted in, Elvis Andrus? Jhonny Peralta? I guess maybe Jed Lowrie, but it's hard to predict an Oakland player getting voted in right now.
   63. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 06:06 AM (#4508702)
If Jose Iglesias is a regular in MLB for more than a year or two, I'll #### thumbtacks.


I won't go that far, I think Iglesias could have a decent career, but we're talking about a guy coming off a .457 OPS (yes, OPS) in the last month, and who was always projected to be all field and no hit. Moreover, while he's a plus defender at short, he's not Andrelton Simmons with the glove, much less Adam Everett. And finally, blocking Bogaerts IS kind of a big deal. His defense is also very good, and moving him off SS would significantly decrease his value to the team.

It's possible that Iglesias turns out to be Ozzie Smith, but for one he'd need to turn into a vastly better hitter and for two he'd have to also turn out to be the best defensive shortstop ever. This is as clear an overvaluation of a prospect as I've ever seen on this website.

   64. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 31, 2013 at 06:52 AM (#4508709)
I can't believe some of the love Jose Iglesias is getting on this site, either.

Can he field? Hells, yeah. He is one of the few players that you would pay to watch him play defense. He is a joy to watch, defensively.

Unfortunately for Iglesias, the rules also require that he pick up a bat...and there is scant evidence, except for the luckiest 34-game stretch ever from the start of the season until June 25th, that he can hit at all. In those first 126 PAs, he hit .434/.484/.575, with a BABIP of .490. Every bleeding grounder. Every bloop to the outfield. It was a running joke in Red Sox Nation that Iglesias had found the way to hit swinging bunts for base hits on purpose.

In fact, I was worried that he had come down to Earth since late June in a way that would reveal to anybody fooled by his slash line that he was what he always has been - a wonderful defensive SS incapable of hitting enough to play everyday baseball.

Since June 25th: 105 PAs, .212/.248/.222. He has one extra-base hit (a ground rule double that bounced into the stands at the Pesky Pole), two walks, and 15 Ks. His BABIP is .247.

This isn't some cherry picking of his stats this year, either. In 2013, in AAA, Iglesias has .202 in 133 PAs. In 2011 in AAA, he went .235/.285/.269. In 2012 in AAA, he went .266/.318/.306, and that was his career year. He has zero extra-base power, he has poor strike zone command, and he doesn't hit for average. He's fast, but has shown no inclination to use that speed as a base stealing threat (3 SBs this year). Of course, you can't steal first base, so this is the least of his problems.

Then, the Red Sox have a pair of prospects on the left side of the infield who are barreling up to Boston - Xander Bogaerts, and Garin Cecchini. Both have been outstanding this year, and are moving rapidly in the system. You can say that having Bogaerts doesn't mean you give away Iglesias, but:

a) they didn't give away Iglesias - they got a quality starting pitcher that they can afford to pay, and who is under contract through next year, and
b) Iglesias is using a 40-man spot, which is suddenly quite valuable to the Red Sox, and
c) Bogaerts would absolutely add more value to the Red Sox over the next 55 games than Iglesias, because he'll actually get on base more than twice a week.

If you look at the Red Sox over the last three weeks or so, their biggest problem has been that they are simply giving away whole innings offensively, and struggling to score runs despite some good pitching. Iglesias was like having the pitcher hit, and they have internal solutions that are much better. If Jose Iglesias is your third baseman (which he has been about 30 games this year) , you aren't a playoff team.
   65. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:10 AM (#4508715)
I've watched just about every Red Sox game this season. Iglesias is not a banjo hitter. He is capable of hitting the ball hard. Last night he hit a line drive off the wall that was a HR in most parks (he got thrown out at second because the ball got to the wall so fast).

I like Peavy, but the obvious concern is his health. This is gonna make for a tense end of summer.
   66. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:19 AM (#4508717)
Iglesias is not a banjo hitter. He is capable of hitting the ball hard.

Absolutely. He has 1-HR power!
   67. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:25 AM (#4508718)
He projects to 3 over 162 games!

He's a line drive hitter, and the wall at Fenway takes away HR's. And he'll get his share of doubles. He's not Mark Belanger at the plate. I think he'll turn out to be a decent bat.
   68. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:28 AM (#4508720)
Villarreal had a decent year with Detroit last year.
   69. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:37 AM (#4508724)
He's not Mark Belanger at the plate.


You're right. He's nowhere near that good.
   70. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:40 AM (#4508725)
Wanna bet?
   71. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:45 AM (#4508726)
This is a fascinating trade - the players moved, the context, the teams, everything. I have no idea whether the Tigers did great or got hosed. I like Avisail but maybe he doesn't have the patience to be a good major league hitter. I think he'll have some good years. What the hell is Iglesias going to be? With his glove, what does he need to hit to be league average?

At the very least, it'll be fun watching the Tigers run out a top defender at SS for the first time since... John McDonald I guess, Tram before that. (Adam Everett had lost a step by his Tigers career). Rick Porcello has got to be stoked.
   72. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:45 AM (#4508727)
2. Iglesias is nowhere near as good a player as Simmons.

Wanted to second this. Comparing Iglesias to Simmonds is absurd.

Simmonds never had a wRC+ below 111 in the minors. His 82 this year is carrying a 247 BABIP despite a 19% LD rate. Iglesias has posted 82, 52, 75 and 57 in his 4 most recent mLB stops. And UZR, TZ, and DRS all like Simmonds D better.
   73. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:50 AM (#4508730)
Wanna bet?


Absolutely. And I'll be laughing all the way to a BB-Ref sponsorship without ever sweating it.
   74. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:54 AM (#4508731)
jj hardy is a d8mn good shortstop. I am always puzzled at how the general theme at bbtf is that hardy is just 'ok'.

hardy has a different set of tools to generate results in that he is not fast and relies on great hands, intelligence and a strong arm to make plays. but make plays he does. a lot of them
   75. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:57 AM (#4508735)
And Hardy hits.

Alright, Mr. Voxter, what shall we do? HRs? Belanger had 20 for his career. Adjusted for era, what would Iglesias need to match that? 20% more? 33%?
   76. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:59 AM (#4508737)
I'd go with OPS+, as it's era adjusted.
   77. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:08 AM (#4508741)
68? You're very generous. I accept. Name the terms (and, let me say, without any bitterness, that I haven't collected on my Wily Mo bets made here some years ago...not that you were involved in that...just saying).
   78. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:20 AM (#4508744)
Iglesias is 23 and doesn't have to do much at the plate to contribute in a positive fashion. he will be playing for a manager and organization that will let him do his thing without nagging on what he doesn't do.

I have only seen Iglesias a handful of times so agree he is very, very good. he didn't strike me as ozzie and when I first saw ozzie I was dumbstruck. but he is very, very good.

good to see the return to prominence of the good field, no hit shortstop. takes me back
   79. Publius Publicola Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:25 AM (#4508747)
Simmonds never had a wRC+ below 111 in the minors. His 82 this year is carrying a 247 BABIP despite a 19% LD rate. Iglesias has posted 82, 52, 75 and 57 in his 4 most recent mLB stops. And UZR, TZ, and DRS all like Simmonds D better.


BUT!

If he'd been traded to the Yankees, then Iglesias would be favorably compared to Smith, Maranville, Belanger and Marion.
   80. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:37 AM (#4508749)
I think Boston gave up the third-best player in this deal, and I don't understand all the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments on their side of the aisle. Speculating about what Iglesias would do if he turned into a decent hitter is likely to be about as productive as speculating about what would happen if he turned into a dirigible and floated away.
   81. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:40 AM (#4508755)
Response by Red Sox fans to trading Jose Iglesias is EXACTLY what they would have said if the Red Sox had traded Will Middlebrooks during his brief moment in the sun last year.

Has there been any articles written about HOW Jose Iglesias has become an OK hitter? Even in AA and AAA, he was always the worst hitter in the lineup. Last year they called him up and he played a few weeks and his OPS was .391, and that was not a surprise. True, his BAbip was .137, but that was higher than his batting average. Now his BAbip is incredibly high, but that's not the only contributor to his good stats. What's going on here?
   82. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:47 AM (#4508761)
I think Boston gave up the third-best player in this deal, and I don't understand all the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments on their side of the aisle. Speculating about what Iglesias would do if he turned into a decent hitter is likely to be about as productive as speculating about what would happen if he turned into a dirigible and floated away.


What I've seen from Iglesias is a guy who will hit enough to carry the glove. In return the Sox get a pitcher that I have very little confidence is going to make a meaningful impact. Ten starts is not a lot of time to make a huge difference.

There is also an emotional impact to this. Iglesias is just as much fun to watch play as any player the Sox have. He is unbelievable defensively and I feel cheated out of the chance to watch him play shortstop on a daily basis.
   83. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:50 AM (#4508765)
peavy buchholz lackey lester is one helluva playoff rotation. Of course it might not matter if they have to play the one off.
   84. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:52 AM (#4508766)

Has there been any articles written about HOW Jose Iglesias has become an OK hitter?


Uh, duh.
   85. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:55 AM (#4508770)
jose

if the brewers had not picked up don Sutton for September 1982 Milwaukee doesn't win the division. Sutton was the only brewer starter worth a d8mn that month.

just saying

edit: well him and mike caldwell
   86. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 08:57 AM (#4508772)
What's going on here?

Maybe he's seeing the ball better in MLB parks vs the minor league parks.

Pedroia hit well in the minors, so maybe it isn't a good comp, but he sucked when the called him up in September of '06. I thought he was overmatched. I'm not suggesting that Iglesias is anywhere near as good a hitter as Pedroia, but I will suggest that he may be benefiting from playing in better conditions. And that maybe as he matures he's becoming a better hitter. Would it be the first time that a player made a great leap in ability?
   87. Dan Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:03 AM (#4508776)
The Red Sox were ridiculously overaggressive in promoting Iglesias through the minors. It seems plausible that he's finally catching up in development to the level he's at. Not fancying myself a scout or anything, but Iglesias's swing this year looks completely different, and while he isn't extremely fleet of foot, he gets out of the box very quickly for a RHH. Like Jeter does, he's always going to turn a lot of his dribblers and swinging bunts into infield singles. Obviously that doesn't mean he'll get infield hits at the rate he was doing in April-June, but it should help him get on base enough to make his glove an asset as an everyday SS. And unlike in the past, he's actually been hitting line drives to the OF gaps with authority this season.
   88. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:09 AM (#4508781)
And there's plenty of bad pitching in the league to allow him to continue to do that...like last night.

That play where he tried to stretch the hit off the wall was pretty funny. I was watching with the sound off (wife was sleeping), and it looked like a Keystone Cops routine.

For those who missed it, the throw beat him by a lot, but the fielder had to stretch for it and was lying prone, and Iglesias tried to slide around him, but slid past the bag, missing it, so he headed back to first and was put out after a rundown where he tried to avoid the tag, again, by spinning out of the way.
   89. ASmitty Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:11 AM (#4508782)
Garcia is the sort of prospect you hate for your favorite team to trade away. His upside is enormous. On the flip-side, basically every one of his tools needs refining. I'll miss the guy, and I wish he wasn't traded within the division.
   90. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4508783)
1/3 of Iglesias' hits this year were of the INF variety.

His BABIP is .376

His minor league numbers are absolutely DREADFUL, at every level.

He's crashed HARD at the major league level with the stick after a start far out of line with every other number he's put up in his career.

He's an exceptional defensive SS, that is not to be denied. I was and remain extremely skeptical that he'll ever hit worth a damn.

And for those higher on Iglesias than I am, it's probably worth noting that Peavy is signed through 2014, so he won't be a rental.
   91. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:15 AM (#4508785)
Pedroia hit well in the minors, so maybe it isn't a good comp, but he sucked when the called him up in September of '06. I thought he was overmatched. I'm not suggesting that Iglesias is anywhere near as good a hitter as Pedroia, but I will suggest that he may be benefiting from playing in better conditions. And that maybe as he matures he's becoming a better hitter. Would it be the first time that a player made a great leap in ability?

There's no point in bringing up Pedroia. Pedroia DESTROYED the ball in the minor leagues. Iglesias' OPS overall in the minors was 622

No comparison at all. There's a difference between seeing a guy slump when initially reaching the majors (Pedroia) and seeing a guy who's never done anything in the minors have a clearly unsustainable hot streak at the beginning of his major league career (Iglesias). I have every expectation that his recent slump is in fact pretty close to his expected major league offensive form going forward. He has a looooooong history of being a terrible hitter at every level.
   92. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:16 AM (#4508786)
Thank Christ he's the Tigers' problem now.
   93. The District Attorney Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:18 AM (#4508789)
I'm sure it's more fun to root for a player who is +20 on defense and -40 on offense than a guy who is -10 on both. He makes all these amazing plays, and you don't expect him to hit anyway!

Still, it's the same value, and even from a "fun" perspective, it gets old once you realize the guy is hurting you overall and that ain't gonna change. I had to deal with Rey Ordonez, I heard this whole story.
   94. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:21 AM (#4508793)
68? You're very generous. I accept. Name the terms (and, let me say, without any bitterness, that I haven't collected on my Wily Mo bets made here some years ago...not that you were involved in that...just saying).


Email heading your way.
   95. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:25 AM (#4508798)
Last year they called him up and he played a few weeks and his OPS was .391, and that was not a surprise. True, his BAbip was .137, but that was higher than his batting average. Now his BAbip is incredibly high, but that's not the only contributor to his good stats. What's going on here?


Sample sizes. His career MLB line in about 300 PA is .280/.333/.356 with a .328 BABIP all good for 1.8 WAR. That's a pretty hideous SLG but I think is a generally sustainable performance. I'd guess over time the average dips and the ISO goes up. As Dan said I think he's just developing.
   96. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:25 AM (#4508799)
Thank Christ he's the Tigers' problem now.

The Tigers are a good fit for him. Their lineup can cover for his bat and Peralta's about to get a 50 game vacation, so he'll play and feel like part of the team, which was apparently an issue for him when he got sent down earlier this year, normal for a young player.

I certainly don't wish him any ill will. He's going to a good club that can use him right about now.
   97. ASmitty Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:35 AM (#4508805)
The Tigers are a good fit for him.


Yup. Even without the suspension, the Tigers were unlikely to re-sign Peralta after this year, and they've had absolutely nothing in the system at SS for years. Iglesias gives them a decent option with upside for this year and next year. Garcia is obviously the better hitting prospect, but the Tigers have one young fixture in the outfield already, and are hoping that Castellanos becomes another fixture sooner rather than later.

Defensively, the Tigers now have a stark contract between the middle of the field and the corners. Avila and Infante are plus defenders, and Iglesias and Jackson are Gold Glove types. Meanwhile, the corners are manned by Cabrera, Fielder, Dirks/Tuiassasopo, and the defensive corpse of Torii Hunter.
   98. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:36 AM (#4508807)
And for those higher on Iglesias than I am, it's probably worth noting that Peavy is signed through 2014, so he won't be a rental.


Peavy is owed $14.5 mil next year, and has a $15 mil player option for 2015 based on playing time, which may not be achievable, but he has an outside shot. I'm not sure he would get much better than that if he were a free agent after this season. IOW, him being signed for next year isn't all that.
   99. TJ Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:54 AM (#4508821)
Maybe this is one of those trades that helps all three teams since A) the floor for all three primary players isn't that low, and B) the ceiling for all three is fairly high (with each having a big IF attached):

Peavy- IF he stays healthy, he's a very good SP. Even if he doesn't, he should be healthy often enough to help Boston this year and at least parts of next...

Garcia- IF he can smooth out his tools, he's a quality starting outfielder. Even if he can't, he should be a good #4 OF at least...

Iglesias- IF he can get his OBP just a little north of .300, he's one of the better SS in the league. Even if he can't, his glove will always play well enough to help a team that can score like Detroit.

As far as it goes for my beloved Detroit Tigers, I like the trade. Peralta is looking at a 50 game suspension and is a free agent at the end of the year. Detroit can't afford to keep him, since Scherzer, Fister, and Jackson are all due big bumps in salary (not to mention Miggy's contract is coming up soon). Iglesias gives Detroit a cost-controlled SS for a few years (granted, not a real cheaply controlled one) that will save a few million to put toward the other guys. His defense is truly needed for the step-and-a-dive-or-less infield of Detroit, and there is no SS prospect in the upper minors. Here's hoping Garcia thrives in Chicago- he played hard and had some big moments for the club last year...
   100. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:54 AM (#4508822)
Peavy is owed $14.5 mil next year, and has a $15 mil player option for 2015 based on playing time, which may not be achievable, but he has an outside shot. I'm not sure he would get much better than that if he were a free agent after this season. IOW, him being signed for next year isn't all that.

Over the past season and a half, Peavy has 300IP of 3.67 ERA, 119 ERA+, in front of a questionable defense. 6.3 WAR. Somebody is taking a shot at that if he's a FA.
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