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Tuesday, July 30, 2013

Peavy traded to Red Sox

The White Sox agreed to a trade Tuesday night that would send Jake Peavy to the Boston Red Sox.

The trade, which is pending the review of Peavy’s medical reports, is part of a three-way deal that includes the Detroit Tigers.

The White Sox are set to receive at least outfielder Avisail Garcia from Detroit in the trade. Boston infielder Jose Iglesias also is reportedly involved in the deal, though where he would land is still unclear.

Peavy was held out of Tuesday night’s start so the White Sox didn’t hurt his value prior to Wednesday’s 3 p.m. CT trade deadline.

Thanks to Butch.

Repoz Posted: July 30, 2013 at 11:14 PM | 163 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox, white sox

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   101. TJ Posted: July 31, 2013 at 09:55 AM (#4508823)
SMITTY!!!!!! Quit typing so fast!
   102. ASmitty Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:01 AM (#4508830)
SMITTY!!!!!! Quit typing so fast!


This is possibly the funniest thing ever written. I type with exactly two fingers and with my eyes so locked on the keys that I need to edit every post about five times. I produce about 12 words per minute. I started this post yesterday.
   103. J. Sosa Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:03 AM (#4508836)
I tend to over value prospects/young players. A lot. As a Red Sox fan who was slightly miffed rather than upset that Iglesias was part of the deal that probably means it was a good deal for Boston.

I'm not sold on the Red Sox FO but from a major league team building perspective given the monetary resources available after the Dodger Dump and the type of minor league depth they have behind Iglesias this was probably smart.

Now if they could only fix 3b...
   104. fran Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:05 AM (#4508838)
Why aren't the Tigers included as one of the subjects of this thread?

Hasn't Iglesias been playing 3rd base? I know he's best at short but I wondered if he would also be seen as somebody who could be put in for defense later in games, or substitute for Miguel if Miguel needs time off. Miguel is still hurting.

I don't think the Tigers want Martinez' bat out of the lineup. (especially if Peralta will be gone.)

Did other teams make trades based on expectations of suspensions? Or is it the case that if Melky Cabrera & Bartolo Colon won't get suspended then Jhonny is the most important guy expected to go?
   105. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:12 AM (#4508844)
j sosa

it's a certainty that if aramis Ramirez were not injured the brewers would have taken a reasonable deal

but alas, that is a moot point now
   106. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:13 AM (#4508845)
Did other teams make trades based on expectations of suspensions?


Supposedly, the pending suspension for Nelson Cruz is part of the reason the Rangers are looking for another bat.
   107. Dan Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:15 AM (#4508850)
Not that it fixes 3B, but Cherington might think it does: I'm fully expecting a Michael Young trade before the day is out. The team is calling up Holt, meanwhile Bogaerts and Middlebrooks are both still in AAA...
   108. Dale Sams Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:26 AM (#4508858)
SO

Instead of

Bogaerts (impossible to be worse than WMB and probably would be better than Drew)
Iggy

Workman
Lackey
Dempster
Lester
Doubront

They go with

Young
Drew

Peavy
Lackey
Dempster
Lester
Doubront

   109. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:27 AM (#4508861)
The way people are describing Iglesias, it sounds like Brendan Ryan, more than Andrelton Simmons, is a good comparable? At the very least, he's a good example of the ceiling of an all-defence shortstop, and his value depends pretty strongly on his fielding. bWAR has him between 4.5 WAR and 2.1 WAR from 2009-2012 (the years he averaged over 120 games a year) and has him with 0.6 WAR this year as his Rfield has come down from its otherworldly heights of 28 to 7. fWAR (and UZR, ostensibly) is less bullish, with 2.8 WAR and 1.3 WAR in those years (and -0.6 WAR this year), with very, very good fielding numbers of around 13 in those years. So whether you think Ryan is above-average or below-average depends on the exact value you peg on his glove which, in both cases, is tremendous. Basically, if you want to be an above-average regular at shortstop without the ability to hit, you have to be a really, really, really good fielder (which is not news at all).
   110. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:30 AM (#4508865)
The way people are describing Iglesias, it sounds like Brendan Ryan, more than Andrelton Simmons, is a good comparable?


Yup. The name I've had in my head all along is Jack Wilson but Ryan makes just as much sense.
   111. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:31 AM (#4508866)
Not that it fixes 3B, but Cherington might think it does: I'm fully expecting a Michael Young trade before the day is out. The team is calling up Holt, meanwhile Bogaerts and Middlebrooks are both still in AAA...

I hope they don't trade for Young. Apparently he told PHI that he will only agree to be traded to Texas.

Bogaerts is not yet on the 40 man, which may be a reason they haven't called him up yet.
   112. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:33 AM (#4508870)
I agree as well, Arjun.
   113. ASmitty Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:39 AM (#4508884)
Like I said earlier, my gut reaction is to be sad Garcia is gone, but I'm trying to console myself with the fact that, since he's taken over in Detroit, pretty much every prospect Dombrowski has traded has gone bust-o. Jurrjens is probably the only guy who provided a lot of value.
   114. J. Sosa Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:41 AM (#4508887)
Harvey's, I think you are right, that would potentially have been a good fit. I think the Sox may have been willing to do it.

Dan, Michael Young huh? Not sure how I feel about that. I guess the plan is to try and contend while not burning any of the elite prospects in a trade. I think I'm probably ok with that. I guess they may figure Young is what he is and its a hedge against younger guys not being ready. If they eat the money I would hope it wouldn't take more than a bag of baseballs to get him.
   115. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:42 AM (#4508890)
The Red Sox FO just loves the three-team deal. I think they've done more 3X deals than I've ever seen.
   116. tfbg9 Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:51 AM (#4508900)
We all watch this game because we all love it. There's some entertainment value in a guy like Iglesias...a fair ammount. More so than
I think you'd get from a typical "Bulldog Starter", although YMMV, and nothing is more entertaining than winning the game. The fact that
Peavy doesn't walk people up's his EV for me a tad, I guess.
   117. The District Attorney Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4508901)
SMITTY!!!!!! Quit typing so fast!
Oh, and don't you hate posts?
   118. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:56 AM (#4508903)
Can somebody explain Iglesias' contract situation. I thought he got a MLB contract so he would have two seasons left before FA, but bb-ref has him as an FA in 2019. He is out of options, right?

The three prospects from the Red Sox seem like good lottery tickets. Young with some good numbers even if not highly thought of.

   119. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 10:58 AM (#4508905)
Iglesias is 23 and doesn't have to do much at the plate to contribute in a positive fashion. he will be playing for a manager and organization that will let him do his thing without nagging on what he doesn't do.


Eureka! You're a genius, Harveys! That's the comp I keep reaching for but couldn't quite grasp--Iglesias is the new Rafael Belliard.

Can somebody explain Iglesias' contract situation. I thought he got a MLB contract so he would have two seasons left before FA, but bb-ref has him as an FA in 2019. He is out of options, right?


Arbitration and FA eligibility depends on major league service time, not 40-man roster service time.
   120. JJ1986 Posted: July 31, 2013 at 11:02 AM (#4508907)
Arbitration and FA eligibility depends on major league service time, not 40-man roster service time.


Some foreign professionals get early FA in their contracts. Cespedes did. I would trust b-r about Iglesias, though.
   121. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 31, 2013 at 11:07 AM (#4508914)
I read the whole thread, and didn't see this point: Iglesias might be a better offensive fit in Tiger Stadium than in any other AL ballpark.
   122. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 11:11 AM (#4508920)
I hope they don't trade for Young. Apparently he told PHI that he will only agree to be traded to Texas.


That report was later retracted. The general consensus is that he'd be willing to accept a trade to Boston.
   123. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 11:19 AM (#4508929)
I read the whole thread, and didn't see this point: Iglesias might be a better offensive fit in Tiger Stadium than in any other AL ballpark.


Even if that's true, what's that worth to Iglesias? 25 points of OPS? So he'll OPS .565 instead of .540? Iglesias' bat is a good fit for a Sally League park.

The Belliard comp looks pretty much perfect to me. Tremendous, tremendous glove, good enough that Belliard stayed in the majors for 17 years, but was never quite a regular because he hit like a pitcher and managers were usually trying to get some extra pop in their lineups. Seems likely Iglesias is headed for a similar career. But for now he's a good option to plug the Tigers' shortstop hole until someone that can play shortstop and OPS+ at least 70 comes along.
   124. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: July 31, 2013 at 11:22 AM (#4508934)

That report was later retracted. The general consensus is that he'd be willing to accept a trade to Boston.


Well poop. Not a Young fan. If he comes here I hope it's for a Pitcher's Pal and about $100K.
   125. Dale Sams Posted: July 31, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4508952)
Iglesias is *23*

And a run saved is a run scored.
   126. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 11:43 AM (#4508964)
Iglesias is *23*


And Belliard made his ML debut when he was 20.
   127. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:01 PM (#4508989)
And a run saved is a run scored.


And a run not scored is the same as one scored past a diving Jeter.
   128. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:04 PM (#4508994)
#127, we were having a perfectly non-Jeterian thread and you had to go there.
   129. Cooper Nielson Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4509000)
Like I said earlier, my gut reaction is to be sad Garcia is gone, but I'm trying to console myself with the fact that, since he's taken over in Detroit, pretty much every prospect Dombrowski has traded has gone bust-o. Jurrjens is probably the only guy who provided a lot of value.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I like Avisail, but Dombrowski's record in trading prospects (with the Tigers) has been pretty good. Jurrjens had some good years, Matt Joyce has been decent, and Jacob Turner might turn out to be an OK #2-3 starter.

But none of the prospects have really come back to haunt them. Most of them have flopped and/or settled in as unexciting role players — Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, Humberto Sanchez, Gorkys Hernandez, Scott Sizemore, Wilkin Ramirez, Chance Ruffin, etc. (Ramon Santiago flopped and then came back to be a role player for the Tigers.)
   130. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:13 PM (#4509006)
When I was a little kid I used to say "Rafael Belliard, he's a smelliard" when he came up to the plate. I thought I was quite the cunning quipster.
   131. Sonic Youk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4509012)
Random thought... This and the Garza trade really highlight how bad Sheilds for Myers was
   132. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:33 PM (#4509038)
The Belliard comp looks pretty much perfect to me.


Somewhere between Belliard and Brendan Ryan, Rayn awas actually amuch beter hitter than Belliard (which tells you all you need to know about Belliard's bat)
   133. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4509044)
Somewhere between Belliard and Brendan Ryan, Rayn awas actually amuch beter hitter than Belliard (which tells you all you need to know about Belliard's bat)

Rey Ordonez?
   134. ASmitty Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4509046)
Belliard is on Detroit's coaching staff, so that has to factor into the comps in some way that I don't understand.
   135. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4509058)
Jim Leyland always loved Belliard. I remember reading a claim many years ago that Leyland cried when Belliard signed with the Braves.
   136. The kids disappeared, now Der-K has too much candy Posted: July 31, 2013 at 12:52 PM (#4509061)
Some foreign professionals get early FA in their contracts. Cespedes did.

It's fairly rare, outside of guys coming from Japan. I'm pretty sure Iglesias did not get this.
   137. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4509079)
Rey Ordonez?


Seems reasonable, but believe it or not Rey showed a bit more XBH pop than Iglesias in the minors


Iglesias minors: .257/.307/.314
Ordonez: .257/.290/.344
Brendan Ryan: .292/.340/.384
Brian Bocock: .228/.300/.313
Belliard: .253/.290/.301
Gregorius: .267/.319/.375
Ruben Tejada: .271/.340/.354

Minor league numbers are not destiny obviously, players can improve, etc., but it looks like Iglesias will have to improve significantly to reach Ryan as a hitter,who knows, given his June, maybe he has, or maybe he just had a hot month
   138. I am Ted F'ing Williams Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4509089)
Find it hard to believe the White Sox couldn't have just traded Alexei Ramirez for Garcia, the Tigers seem desperate.

Then they could have moved Peavy for something a more than 1 decent 20 year old. Peavy may have about 50 more starts in him, but the Red Sox got that for cheap as Peavy's salary commitments seem in line for what he provides (about #2 starter). Seems like Hahn panicked instead of waiting for the Winter Meetings to move Peavy for developing players.
   139. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4509090)
Somewhere between Belliard and Brendan Ryan, Ryan was actually a much better hitter than Belliard (which tells you all you need to know about Belliard's bat)


Iglesias has as many career home runs as Belliard had, in 2200 fewer PAs. Belliard is the most punchless hitter I've ever seen.

   140. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4509106)
More:
John MacDonald:
.260/.321/.327

Adam Everett: .259/.346/.368

Jack Wilson: .312/.369/.440

Ronny Cedeno: .274/.326/.391

beating a very dead horse, but Iglesias is gonna have to have a GREAT glove (not good) and he's going to have have had to improved substantially and atypically as a hitter if he's gonna have a career as anything other than defensive sub
   141. SandyRiver Posted: July 31, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4509137)
The Belliard comp looks pretty much perfect to me. Tremendous, tremendous glove, good enough that Belliard stayed in the majors for 17 years, but was never quite a regular because he hit like a pitcher and managers were usually trying to get some extra pop in their lineups. Seems likely Iglesias is headed for a similar career. But for now he's a good option to plug the Tigers' shortstop hole until someone that can play shortstop and OPS+ at least 70 comes along.


Belliard's career OPS is .530, OPS+ of 46, best season with more than rwo PA had OPS+ of 61. Looking at Iglesias' numbers thus far, he'd need to maintain OPS of about .580 to have OPS+ of 46. Pretty low floor. OPS about .640 would put him near the OPS+ of 70.
   142. The Mighty Quintana Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:18 PM (#4509197)
So if the Red Sox don't acquire Young, are we looking at Holt/Snyder straight platoon? Or is it going to be Boegarts? I don't mind either solution over what we had (an A+ glove SS wasted at 3B, without the bat to fit the position)
   143. Sonic Youk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:40 PM (#4509244)
My guess is they'll give Middlebrooks another shot for a month, and then see where things stand at roster expansion time. The fact that calling up WMB wasn't their immediate move is weird and a bit scary, though.
   144. villageidiom Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4509253)
SO

Instead of

Bogaerts (impossible to be worse than WMB and probably would be better than Drew)
Iggy

Workman
Lackey
Dempster
Lester
Doubront

They go with

Young
If you have to invent data to prove your point, your point is crap.
   145. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4509272)
The fact that calling up WMB wasn't their immediate move is weird and a bit scary, though.


NOT his initials.
   146. Nasty Nate Posted: July 31, 2013 at 02:59 PM (#4509286)
NOT his initials.


You're right, should be WMM:

Wily Mo Middlebrooks
   147. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:00 PM (#4509289)
Wily Mo Brooks?
   148. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4509296)
Middlebrooks' initials should be DFA.
   149. bigglou115 Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4509366)
It's fairly rare, outside of guys coming from Japan. I'm pretty sure Iglesias did not get this.


Iggy got a MLB deal, so that runs for the length of the contract, but the team still gets 6 years of control.
   150. Dale Sams Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:34 PM (#4509379)
If you have to invent data to prove your point, your point is crap


Bullshit. The Rosenbergs were guilty, as was OJ.

And a run not scored is the same as one scored past a diving Jeter.


Negative's are illusions. They don't really exist.

j/k, my meds are kicking in.
   151. Dale Sams Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4509386)
but Iglesias is gonna have to have a GREAT glove (not good) and he's going to have have had to improved substantially and atypically as a hitter if he's gonna have a career as anything other than defensive sub


A. Simmons leads all SS's with 4.0 Bwar....his line is lower than what ZIPS has for Iggy moving forward this year.

IOW, I disagree.
   152. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4509403)
A. Simmons leads all SS's with 4.0 Bwar....his line is lower than what ZIPS has for Iggy moving forward this year.

Simmonds has a 82 wRC+ right now. Iglesias ZiPs ROS is 76.

Simmonds is also +28 fielding in 103 G in that B-Ref WAR.
   153. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 31, 2013 at 03:45 PM (#4509410)
Rey Ordonez?

The Iglesias love does remind me of the misplaced regard for Ordonez. Iglesias would have to hit more than the projections suggest is likely to have any real long-term value, so this seems like a good move for Boston. Of course, if Iglesias somehow hits for the Tigers, the dissenters will have a decade or more to remind everyone how prescient they were. Win-Win.
   154. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 31, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4509447)
A. Simmons leads all SS's with 4.0 Bwar....his line is lower than what ZIPS has for Iggy moving forward this year.

IOW, I disagree.


1: BREF has Simmons with +47 fielding runs in 151 games
which would utterly shatter the all time single season mark of +35 (per BBREF) (In fact his +28 in 2/3 pf a year this year is already #8 all time, per BBREF).

So fine, if Iglesias is the best fielding SS of all time, then he can be a very good regular even with a replacement level bat.

2: Simmons has an OPS+ of 79, Iglesia's minor league career suggests a guy who will hit around 50, actually reaching his revised ZiPS projection would indeed mean that he has substantially and atypically improved upon his minor league numbers.

Being a great fielder and a borderline/replacement level hitter means he could have Mark Belanger's career- or Adam Everett's


I'm not knocking his glove, however, he is a guy who has over a 1000 professional at bats that say he hits like a pitcher, and aside from that he's had this bizarre 1.5 month stretch where he inexplicably put up a BABIP near .500,
ZiPS projects him to hit .273/.318/.330 the rest of the way, my money is on the under.
   155. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 31, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4509454)
ZiPS projects him to hit .273/.318/.330 the rest of the way, my money is on the under.

Concur.
   156. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 31, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4509494)
The average of Iglesias' pre-season projections (from Fangraphs) was .245/.280/.299 which works out to a 58 OPS+

If his true talent level is now 80 that would indeed indicate substantial (and atypical) improvement.

Right now, after 317 PAs his MLB OPS+ is 88 (114 this year)

If you want to add his minor league numbers and MLB numbers, you get roughly a 65-67 MLB OPS+ in 1500 PAs,

Belanger/Everett territory.
   157. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 31, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4509508)
Meanwhile Kennedy and Norris were traded for a lot less than Iglesias or Garcia.
   158. Morton's Fork Posted: July 31, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4509547)
FOR THIS SEASON: In terms of cost, from Boston's POV, looking at (projected August + September) versus (July actuals): Holt/Snyder at 3B and Drew at SS (with WMB and Bogaerts as depth) easily rates to outperform their July combinations that included Iglesius. It is arguable, then, that Boston is not sacrificing much if anything by trading Iggy. What they gain in Peavey is a SP who has excellent value, especially if Buchholz is done. Red Sox are significantly improving their chances of winning the WS this season. That's a big win for the Red Sox.

FOR THE FUTURE: Bogaerts > Iglesius at SS, and the Sox have plenty of good left-side IF prospects (e.g. WMB, Cecchini, Marrero), so Sox are dealing from depth. Sox control Peavey next season (14.5 M$) and for 2015 if they choose to make a QO. Even if Iglesius eventually turns into a hitter, he may turn out to have been relatively redundant among WMB and Bogaerts and the minor leaguers. That also feels like a big win for the Red Sox.

I'm not saying that this was a bad deal for Chicago (it wasn't) or for Detroit (I don't know, but it was at least perfectly defensible) but it's a super deal for Boston.

I'm ignoring the three minor leaguers Boston sent to the White Sox. Any of the three of them might turn out to be quite valuable, but none of them, at this point, rate that sort of consideration. I'm also ignoring Boston's gain of Chicago's RP Villareal, a RH RP who beats RHB and therefore perfectly fits a Red Sox need this season. He's currently on the DL.

Ben Cherington ain't getting his daps. This is a (another, with respect to the Big Nicky Punto Trade plus all of the offseason pickups) transaction that provides limited downside (Iggy turns out to be a really good hitter) and measurable-plus-potential upside (Peavey doesn't get injured in the next 3 months plus Peavey doesn't get injured in the next 18 months).
   159. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: July 31, 2013 at 06:42 PM (#4509637)
In the Iglesias pool, put me down for Rey Sanchez. 69 OPS+ spread over 5000+ PAs. Maybe that's a little high, but I'm hopeful.
   160. Sonic Youk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:17 PM (#4509653)
ZiPS projects him to hit .273/.318/.330 the rest of the way, my money is on the under


this is basically his career line, in 300 ABs. Hes also 23. His minor league stats suck, but its not like he'd be the only player who made large strides after making the majors.
   161. madvillain Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:28 PM (#4509660)
but its not like he'd be the only player who made large strides after making the majors


I think people would be more inclined towards this POV if some of his peripherals were better (iso, isoD, walk %, etc) but it's really just an absurdly BABIP rate that's driving his slash line and once that falls back to normal there goes any offensive value.

I kinda fail to see how he's anything better than a rich man's Brendan Ryan, there is value in that, but not more than 1-3 WAR a season, at best.
   162. Sonic Youk Posted: July 31, 2013 at 07:58 PM (#4509681)
I think people would be more inclined towards this POV if some of his peripherals were better (iso, isoD, walk %, etc) but it's really just an absurdly BABIP rate that's driving his slash line and once that falls back to normal there goes any offensive value.


I'm talking about his career line, which is propped up by a fairly normal looking .328 BABIP
   163. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 01, 2013 at 07:40 PM (#4510677)
68? You're very generous. I accept. Name the terms (and, let me say, without any bitterness, that I haven't collected on my Wily Mo bets made here some years ago...not that you were involved in that...just saying).



Email heading your way.

Try bivens_joe@yahoo.com

BTF email doesn't seem to work too well, for me.
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