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Wednesday, August 29, 2012

Pedro Alvarez smacks two long homers as Pirates whip Cardinals, 9-0

Alvarez crushed a 469-foot home run in the sixth, clearing the seats in center and bouncing to the Riverwalk on the shores of the Allegheny River, the longest home run by a Pirate in the history of the 11-year-old ballpark.

“The ball looked like it was going to hit the bridge,” manager Clint Hurdle said. “That’s four hundred and I don’t know how many—that’s a whole bunch of feet.”

The game was also notable for this collision at the plate, between Josh Harrison and Yadier Molina:

Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:16 PM | 48 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: game recaps, general, pittsburgh pirates, st. louis cardinals

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   1. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4221490)
Yadier is worth every penny of that contract. That is a tough sob.
   2. Balkroth Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4221510)
There's a bunch of rage in cardinals sites and boards about the hit. I personally didn't really mind the HPC, but I do think Harriso putting his shoulder into yadi's head was excessive,but I think some of that is from Molina ducking down more. Also seems to be a wave of support on getting Home plate collisions banned or at least the rules changed some in cardinals circles.

Also, geez Alvarez is Crushing the cardinals this season to a .389/.459/.778 line in 54 AB.
   3. SoSH U at work Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4221533)
There's a bunch of rage in cardinals sites and boards about the hit. I personally didn't really mind the HPC, but I do think Harriso putting his shoulder into yadi's head was excessive,but I think some of that is from Molina ducking down more. Also seems to be a wave of support on getting Home plate collisions banned or at least the rules changed some in cardinals circles.


While I've been on the ban the home plate collision train for a long time, as long as MLB continues to allow the foolishness, then I don't see any legitimate reasons for complaining about Harrison's hit.
   4. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4221539)
Cant really complain about it molina was blocking the whole plate. From the picture it looks like he at least tried to go to the side of it.
   5. Charlie O Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4221545)
So long as catchers are allowed to block the plate rather than apply a tag as it would be done at second or third base, we're going to have these collisions. I think the game would be better off without them and without the take-out slides at second base. Leave that football mentality on the gridiron.
   6. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4221553)
I do think Harriso putting his shoulder into yadi's head was excessive


It's important to remember that Harrison's really short. Listed at 5'8", and even that might be a stretch. He doesn't have to bend down all that far for his shoulder to end up at a catcher's head level.

I was at the game last night, ten rows back from home plate, and it was a real "Oh, ####!" moment. Props to Molina for holding onto the ball, because it was a hell of a smash-up.
   7. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4221561)
Yadier Molina is probably my least favorite player in baseball.

That said, he wasn't really blocking the plate so much as coming into the baseline to make the catch. I don't know what else you want to do with that type of play.
   8. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4221576)
ssr:

that is why catchers use the swipe tag. yes he came up the line a tad to get the throw but he could have done that without being directly in front of the plate.

the risk is that the runner can evade the tage.

molina wanted to take that option away and ka-boom.

molina is a well known jibber-jabber, crybaby who takes offense and picks fights periodically. i hope he is ok but as a fan one struggles to have that much sympathy for someone who if given the opportunity would have planted harrison in the face and then slammed the ball to the ground as a celebration afterward.
   9. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4221582)
on those cardinal boards was there any discussion of the beaning of harrison at his next at bat?
   10. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4221588)
That home run was a shot of mammoth proportions. I need to track down all those comments from not-all-that-long-ago wondering when the Pirates were going to heave him over the side of the ship.
   11. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4221589)
I watched much of this game and I think it was a "clean" collision, as far as the practice is usually executed. Molina was blocking the entire plate, and was in Harrison's way.

Harrison, at least from the television broadcast, seemed very gentlemanly and concerned for Molina. I noticed he was the only Pirate in the dugout who applauded (at least the only Pirate in camera view) when Molina went off the field.

Pedro Alvarez has a 123 OPS+ and leads NL 3B in HR. I am a bit surprised he hit that huge bomb in the 6th inning. SSS and all that, but he's slugged .362 in night games this year. The first HR was hit at dusk, so I don't know where that falls for these purposes.
   12. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:21 PM (#4221590)
So long as catchers are allowed to block the plate rather than apply a tag as it would be done at second or third base, we're going to have these collisions. I think the game would be better off without them and without the take-out slides at second base. Leave that football mentality on the gridiron.


Seconded. Maybe the increasing alarm about C.T.E. among football players will spill over into baseball. Eliminating collisions at the plate doesn't even require a rules change, really, just an attitude shift.
   13. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4221593)
vlad/dock

are they moving alvarez to first base?
   14. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:42 PM (#4221626)
are they moving alvarez to first base?


Not until/unless they have to. The team still believes that Alvarez can handle 3B and as long as they believe that he will not move.

-- MWE
   15. phredbird Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4221631)
i don't think either player really did anything wrong. maybe yadi should have tried the swipe instead of taking the hit, but one doesn't get a lot of time to consider options when its a close call. tough play.
   16. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4221641)
It's worth noting that that was an amazing throw.
   17. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4221650)
Agreed that neither player was in the wrong. It's the culture around catcher/runner interaction that's messed up.
   18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4221655)
on those cardinal boards was there any discussion of the beaning of harrison at his next at bat?


I will say that I thought it was chickenshit of Westbrook to throw at Harrison's knee, rather than his back or butt. Particularly since Westbrook got pulled from the game before he was due to hit again.

are they moving alvarez to first base?


Concur w/ Mike.
   19. Balkroth Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4221659)
It's important to remember that Harrison's really short. Listed at 5'8", and even that might be a stretch. He doesn't have to bend down all that far for his shoulder to end up at a catcher's head level.


I had forgotten that also, he's a pretty small guy, and echoing what was said above, he did seem generally concerned and releaved when molina walked off, and it never really looked overly intentional to me. It wasn't something like the Posey play where the runner went out of his way to hit him.
on those cardinal boards was there any discussion of the beaning of harrison at his next at bat?

Oh yea. They ranged from most people saying he needs to be hit to just expecting it I guess. Then after it was done there was a fair number of complaints about it, although it seemed like many of those were because it was a slider to the thigh (I guess they wanted the back? I dunno, I'm not big on the retaliation thing, but it doesn't really bother me one way or the other besides it's a free baserunner). I know from checking out the Brewcrew and redsreporter stuff that Molina is pretty hated among those fans.
   20. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4221675)
balkroth

i couldn't understand your last sentence

as to molina he is a wonderful catcher but as a player he is a punk. he gripes about everything, he is super sensitive and takes offense at nothing and if given the chance to rough someone up at the plate he would do it in a heartbeat. anyone who watches nl central baseall knows these things.
   21. Balkroth Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4221685)
Sorry about that, I think I had like 3 ideas I scrambled together into one disjunct one, but I'll blame the sleeping pills on that one.

I definitely see where he complains about everything when things occur that he doesn't agree with and how that is annoying and usually hypocritical of him. I just think it seems there is a lot more anger towards him from the Reds and Brewers fans than the Pirates and Astros (Cubs fans are generally in the same with first group, and I guess they dislike him more than other Cardinals).

I do admit that I forget about some of the in game stuff he does that irks people, or says to reporters, as the fan blinders come on for me.
   22. Perry Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4221686)
as to molina he is a wonderful catcher but as a player he is a punk. he gripes about everything, he is super sensitive and takes offense at nothing and if given the chance to rough someone up at the plate he would do it in a heartbeat. anyone who watches nl central baseall knows these things.


FWIW, he's quoted in the Post-Dispatch today as saying he has no problem with what Harrison did, that it was a "clean play," and "that's part of baseball." So I guess he doesn't gripe at everything.
   23. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4221696)
What the hell was Chris Carpenter's problem? I saw a clip this morning of him yelling at someone from the dugout, but I'm not sure what the context was.
   24. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:46 PM (#4221704)
i hope he is ok but as a fan one struggles to have that much sympathy for someone who if given the opportunity would have planted harrison in the face and then slammed the ball to the ground as a celebration afterward.


And he'd be lauded as a hero by a media all too eager to christen him as the new Johnny Bench.
   25. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:46 PM (#4221705)
What the hell was Chris Carpenter's problem? I saw a clip this morning of him yelling at someone from the dugout, but I'm not sure what the context was.


He was just being Chris Carpenter.
   26. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:48 PM (#4221708)
He was just being Chris Carpenter.


Ah. Doucheraging.
   27. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4221717)
post 22

having followed molina his entire career i am comfortable with my assessment.

frankly, he was likely still concussed and not himself

that last remark is a joke
   28. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: August 29, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4221741)
What the hell was Chris Carpenter's problem?


He is Chris Carpenter. Yapping and starting #### with other teams is what he does.

I'm on Harvey's side for the most part re: Molina, but his response is good here. That's a clean play. He chose to block the plate. He paid for that choice. The fact that Cards fans are enraged is a function of them being Cards fans.
   29. cardsfanboy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 07:18 PM (#4221771)
I'm on Harvey's side for the most part re: Molina, but his response is good here. That's a clean play. He chose to block the plate. He paid for that choice. The fact that Cards fans are enraged is a function of them being Cards fans.


I would say it's a function of a subset of fans who all groups have, but who people like Harvey like to make into a bigger group than they really are. Molina himself has stated it was a clean play. Anyone who has a brain(other words, not a republican) can tell it was a clean play. I agree that it's a play that needs to be outlawed, from the catcher side of the equation, they shouldn't have the right to block the plate at all. This isn't football or hockey. Heck I think a strict reading of the rules, it could be argued that blocking is illegal(it could also be argued that it is legal also)

All the players from competing divisions thinks the other teams are the punks. Nobody complains more about stupid #### than the Reds and their announcers, and the Brewers think every single minor complaint made about them is a national issue, instead of just a passing remark. Bunch of overly sensitive ####### if you ask me.
   30. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: August 29, 2012 at 07:29 PM (#4221776)
All the players from competing divisions thinks the other teams are the punks.


From my limited experience, it does seem that all of the players in the NL Central are punks. Except the Cubs, who just suck. And the Astros, who seem to be made up exclusively of laid of steelworkers and out of work cattle rustlers.
   31. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 29, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4221779)
Bunch of overly sensitive ####### if you ask me.


This was from a Tony LaRussa fan.
   32. cardsfanboy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 07:36 PM (#4221782)

From my limited experience, it does seem that all of the players in the NL Central are punks. Except the Cubs, who just suck. And the Astros, who seem to be made up exclusively of laid of steelworkers and out of work cattle rustlers.


They used to have Zambrano,Soto and Dempster, plenty of punks there.
   33. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: August 29, 2012 at 07:37 PM (#4221783)
It's worth noting that that was an amazing throw.

Accurate yes, but if you look closely, Molina actually picks that up on the short hop, very impressive piece of fielding.

Totally clean play, unlike the Posey collision.
   34. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:00 PM (#4221794)
never said it wasn't a legitimate play by both parties.

said that molina invited the contact and could have avoided using a swipe tag. he didn't. he paid the price.

i also wrote he is a wonderful player and that i hope he is ok

if you want to personalize this by taking the republican shot at least get the facts straight.


   35. cardsfanboy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:09 PM (#4221796)
Wasn't personalizing it, didn't know you were a republican. The republican shot is just because I believe most republicans don't have the ability to grasp facts or simple logic.(global warming deniers, evolution deniers, marriage is historically not about selling your daughter off into slavery...and that money trickles down...silly beliefs that go contrary to facts, evidence and logic.) I wasn't pointing any of my comments at anyone in particular as I don't pay attention to anyone's comments beyond the thread they are commented in.

Every group of fans is going to get upset immediately after a play like that and it will take a little while to get a better grasp of what really happened. Reevaluating your initial reaction is part of being a fan. It's the silly people that think that others hold onto these petty grudges that is funny.


I'm not sure how you can think I aimed my comment at you. You were talking about cardinal fans calling the play bad, and my point is that they would have to be idiots to think that. It was more of an agreement than anything. My mention of you was simply that you focus on the subset of fans and think that they are a majority or even a large amount. They are a minute amount and it could be where you are hanging out that you getting exposed to idiots.
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:11 PM (#4221797)
Alvarez is still killing the Cardinals.
   37. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:16 PM (#4221802)
cfb

if it's a minor contingent they are all over st. louis

but i have said my piece and reiterate that i hope molina is going to be ok long-term

these collisions can have lingering effects. boo, hiss on that
   38. cardsfanboy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:25 PM (#4221805)
if it's a minor contingent they are all over st. louis


That is weird, I live in St Louis and don't usually find people thinking what you claim they do. Only person I have found here that thought Prince Fielder and his celebrations was an example of a punk, was a White Sox fan that lives in St Louis. A large portion, if not the majority of the fans in St Louis, do not like TLR in anyway and agree with you 100% about him, it's nearly impossible to find anyone to defend him except on a message board.

I haven't talked to anyone about the Molina play,so I can't say for sure about the mood on the play (I was out of town until today) but none of my facebook friends commented on it, and usually there is several who would comment on something like that if they thought it was a dirty play.
   39. Pujols Shot Ya Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:30 PM (#4221807)
That was a very nice pick. To do that cleanly, while moving into the line of fire to get creamed, is quite the combination of skill and hard-nosiness.

And I agree, heavens these guys are going to mess themselves up. The video I saw with Mr. Matheny running out to check on him was an immediate reminder.
   40. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4221808)
he's slugged .362 in night games this year


.315/.397/.738 day
.214/.291/.362 night

Night blindness?
   41. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:37 PM (#4221812)
alvarez is still figuring out things. weird splits are likely

this is just my sense of things
   42. zonk Posted: August 29, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4221832)
The catcher has a face mask, chest protector, and shin guards. I know the catcher is taking the hit, but still - it's the catcher, not the baserunner, whose behavior you need to change.

I'm no expert on catching, but I was forced behind the plate one summer when our regular catcher tore up his knee in our first pony league game of the year. We didn't really have a 'backup' catcher - I'm convinced I got the job solely because I was the 2nd pudgiest guy on the team. It took me exactly one game to figure out that you can use those tools of ignorance for more than just foul tips. It took me just two games to figure out it was also perfectly 'legal'. I never did learn how to call a good game, frame pitches, or even make a decent throw to 2nd, but blocking the plate was easy.

Perhaps my view on this would have changed if I had ever been Fosse'ed...
   43. KT's Pot Arb Posted: August 29, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4221897)
Wasn't personalizing it, didn't know you were a republican. The republican shot is just because I believe most republicans don't have the ability to grasp facts or simple logic.(global warming deniers, evolution deniers, marriage is historically not about selling your daughter off into slavery...and that money trickles down...silly beliefs that go contrary to facts, evidence and logic.)


Sort of like believing in burying the country in debt is stimulative, that having the government allocate resources to politically favored companies boosts the economy, that high tax rates and dumb regulations don't affect incentives, that comparative advantage doesn't work and free trade is bad, that creating strong labor monopolies raises middle class incomes by trickling down benefits from the privileged union members, that digging and refilling holes in the desert grows the economy ( my favorite Krugmanism), that government control of medical care will somehow be more efficient (cannily pushed through after democratic mandates jacked health insurance costs through the roof), and that the government should provide free abortion on demand..

Anyone who strongly identifies themselves with a specific party, Democrat or Republican, isn't likely a deep thinker. All party policies are formed to benefit the most important supporters of the party, and factual evidence to the contrary is attacked and ridiculed by both parties. The democratic party is the sole reason keynsiasm is still around despite its failures during the great depression, stagflation, and now with the stimulus fiasco, it's the "intellectual" support for large government programs that, for one example, are needed to keep unions relevant as their private sector presence declines.
   44. KT's Pot Arb Posted: August 29, 2012 at 11:02 PM (#4221904)
Oh, and I forgot that murder can be eliminated by making the preferred murder weapons illegal.
   45. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 29, 2012 at 11:06 PM (#4221909)
kt

i don't know how you deem it appropriate to state that anyone who has political beliefs is a stupid person

and don't come back with some bs 'explanation'. i can read. not a deep thinker my wrinkled backside

there will be no political debate here because i am on record as loathing those threads in this forum



   46. The District Attorney Posted: August 29, 2012 at 11:53 PM (#4221957)
And also, of course, there is a different thread where it's supposed to go.
   47. PerroX Posted: August 30, 2012 at 12:05 AM (#4221961)
I watched the clips from last night, Alvarez made a nice stop at third. If he's not good there, I'd still let him settle in. Both of the homers were real shots, especially the last one. Wow.
   48. Jim Kaat on a hot Gene Roof Posted: August 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM (#4221973)
Is there really that much bad blood between Brewers/Pirates fans and Cards fans? I mean, apparently so, but it surprises me. I haven't seen it from the Cards side of the issue; not saying it's not there, but, for instance, during the NLCS last year the threads seemed pretty clean here and everywhere else I looked -- especially compared to, say, 2006. Of course the subhumans who follow the Cubs hate us Cardinals fans (because they hate excellence) and we hate them because all decent people should and do, and because of the Cueto/Phillips/TLR thing I can see how there is acrimony among Reds fans and Cards fans. But the Pirates and Brewers, really?

Bernie says Alvarez kills the Cards bc our pitchers throw him meatballs down the middle every time. I haven't been able to catch many PIT/STL games but surely it's not that simple?

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