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Tuesday, May 28, 2019

Pedroia ‘not sure’ he can play again

Dustin Pedroia may never play professional baseball again.

The Boston Red Sox announced Pedroia was being transferred to the 60-day injured list Monday because of a setback with his surgically repaired left knee. In the afternoon, the veteran second baseman held a press conference where he said his status as a baseball player was unclear.

“I’m not sure,” he replied when asked if he thought he could play again, according to WEEI’s Rob Bradford. He added, “I’m at a point right now where I need some time. That’s what my status is.”

“My knee will never heal,” Pedroia explained further, according to MassLive’s Chris Cotillo. “We’re taking the time right now to find out if I can play again.”

Rather depressing as a way for it to all end.

 

QLE Posted: May 28, 2019 at 05:31 AM | 69 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dustin pedroia

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   1. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 07:48 AM (#5846067)
This sucks. He hasn't really been Dustin Pedroia since 2016, of course, but I had held out hope he'd be able to come back, at least in limited fashion. Tip of the cap to a quote machine and one of my favorite Red Sox players of the past decade-plus.
   2. My name is RMc and I feel extremely affected Posted: May 28, 2019 at 07:49 AM (#5846068)
Pedroia's HOF case is better than I thought: 51 WAR, 4 ASG, MVP, ROY, 3 rings. But ain't nobody making the Hall with only 1,805 hits and 140 HR...in Fenway, no less.
   3. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:00 AM (#5846069)
He's essentially 19th in career value at a position with 20 in the Hall. He likely gets some intangible credit from the voters for leadership, but I agree he falls short. He's a guy who wouldn't be a travesty either way. Pretty much defines the borderline at second base.
   4. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:36 AM (#5846071)
His knee seems to be at the point where he should be focused on making sure he can walk when he's 60, not getting back on a baseball field. I'm sure the team have already assumed that he won't be a significant piece in the future. You'd assume that he spends the rest of the year on the DL, and eventually there's a "non-retirement retirement" announcement that is compatible with the requirements of the team's insurance policy.
   5. Rally Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:43 AM (#5846073)
He's essentially 19th in career value at a position with 20 in the Hall. He likely gets some intangible credit from the voters for leadership, but I agree he falls short. He's a guy who wouldn't be a travesty either way. Pretty much defines the borderline at second base.


I got 18th by my PI search - career WAR for players who played at least 75% of their games at 2B. Among those not already in the HOF though, he's only 8th. Ahead of him are Grich and Whitaker, who have clearly better credentials. Randolph and Kent, who are probably better. Utley is not yet eligible, Kinsler is still active, and Cano will be kept out for roid reasons.

Among the HOF 2B, he's better than 6 of the 16 who meet my search criteria. Virtually tied with Bobby Doerr as the top Red Sox 2B.
   6. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:43 AM (#5846074)
I've got friends in New England saying thing yesterday on social media like, "Well, better get my travel plans ready for Cooperstown in 2025". I love the Red Sox, and I love Pedroia, but the idea that he is an obvious Hall of Famer is pretty far-fetched. In fact, I think the idea that he is a Hall of Famer is pretty tough to see.

After 2016, an excellent year for him, he was 32, had almost 1700 hits, .301 career average with some walks and power, and it was reasonable to assume that he'd play five more years (through his contract), get 150 hits a year, and end up close to 2500 hits with multiple championships, five or six ASGs, some gold gloves, an MVP and ROY, strong intangibles helping his narrative...yeah, that's a Hall of Famer, especially for a middle infielder. A resume that would be, IMO, sort of a poor man's Barry Larkin, but with more rings and a lower peak.

But now? I think you've got to give an awful lot for the intangibles to make the argument. Regardless, he is one of the those players who will never have to buy a beer at a bar in New England, and can probably be the next Johnny Pesky if that's what he wants to do.

   7. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:56 AM (#5846077)
I could see arguing his case for the HoF using a Kirby Puckett comparison. They're similar in BBRef WAR/WAA (51.7/51.1 WAR for Pedroia/Puckett, 29.2/25.7 WAA) and both have two rings. Puckett's case relied on the idea that without an act of God (they eye condition) then he gets his 3000 hits and makes the Hall cleanly. You could sort of spin the knee injury the same way.

(To be clear, I'm not advocating this approach, only suggesting that at least a couple of voters will likely take it.)
   8. DL from MN Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:30 AM (#5846083)
Among the HOF 2B, he's better than 6 of the 16 who meet my search criteria. Virtually tied with Bobby Doerr as the top Red Sox 2B.


Always be careful doing a straight WAR comparison across eras. Doerr played in 154 game seasons (should get an automatic 5% bonus) and missed his age 27 season due to military service. I think Doerr wins that comparison.
   9. My name is RMc and I feel extremely affected Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:32 AM (#5846086)
Incredibly, the glaucoma probably got Puckett into the HOF. Not only did he garner sympathy votes, but he got in just before the, ahem, revelations about his personal life.
   10. Davo Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5846087)
He went 2 for 20 in the 6 games he played this year....which dropped his official career batting average from .300 to .299.

That would be a really sad way to lose a milestone.
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:40 AM (#5846088)
I got 18th by my PI search - career WAR for players who played at least 75% of their games at 2B. Among those not already in the HOF though, he's only 8th. Ahead of him are Grich and Whitaker, who have clearly better credentials. Randolph and Kent, who are probably better. Utley is not yet eligible, Kinsler is still active, and Cano will be kept out for roid reasons.

Randolph is much better. 66 WAR/36 WAA vs. 52/29. Kent is a good comparison, though.
   12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:47 AM (#5846096)
I can't see Doerr as rating over Pedroia. Their career WAR are in a virtual dead heat, and Pedroia's 3 best years topped any of Doerr's. And then there's the MVP.

And it's not as if Doerr suffered from military service. In fact he likely benefited from it, since he only missed one year (1945), and his best year (1944) and one of his other best years (1943) were ones where MLB consisted almost exclusively of teenagers, greybeards and 4-Fs. I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the HoF, but he wasn't better than Pedroia.

EDIT: That's not to say that Pedroia deserves the HoF over Grich, Whitaker or Randolph. But their omission constitutes a separate scandal.
   13. SoSH U at work Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:48 AM (#5846097)
Randolph is much better. 66 WAR/36 WAA vs. 52/29. Kent is a good comparison, though.


He's much better by career. But Pedroia's peak was considerably better.
   14. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:51 AM (#5846098)
His knee seems to be at the point where he should be focused on making sure he can walk when he's 60


Assuming he doesn't have an injury that's out of the ordinary, he'll be fine. What was once considered "the worst case scenario", knee replacement, ain't so bad any more. People walk out of the hospital the day of the surgery, with little or no pain.
   15. Zonk Will Have the Chicken Kiev Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5846104)
I could see arguing his case for the HoF using a Kirby Puckett comparison. They're similar in BBRef WAR/WAA (51.7/51.1 WAR for Pedroia/Puckett, 29.2/25.7 WAA) and both have two rings. Puckett's case relied on the idea that without an act of God (they eye condition) then he gets his 3000 hits and makes the Hall cleanly. You could sort of spin the knee injury the same way.


It is a bit odd.... if the knee had required amputation or something, he'd probably sail in.

IDK... I'm not a Red Sox fan or even particularly a Pedroia fan (though, it's hard not to like those sparkplug sorts), but I am a big hall guy who hands out various special credits like candy. Depends how crowded the ballot is, but I can see myself advocating for him.
   16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5846105)

He's much better by career. But Pedroia's peak was considerably better.


It's better, but not considerably better. Pedroia's 6 year peak is 35 WAR. Randolph's best 6 consecutive is 30. And then Randolph had a bunch of other 4 WAR seasons later in his career.
   17. Walt Davis Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:04 AM (#5846106)
In terms of HoF, I won't be surprised if a future VC puts him in. And sure, based on Puckett, it's possible the BBWAA will do it. He'd probably be facing a fairly empty ballot. But being all-peak, it really should be an outstanding peak and, even by WAR7 (conveniently available), he's just 16th. Among fairly recent 2Bs, he's essentially tied with Biggio and Alomar but both added a few thousand more PAs and lots of WAR. Compared with, say, Grich, Sandberg, Utley, Carew, Cano, his 42 WAR7 isn't that impressive. (It's not unimpressive but if that's all you got ...)

Outstanding career but as long as Whitaker, Grich, Randolph and probably Utley are stuck on the HoVG team, Pedroia should have a lot of work to do.
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:21 AM (#5846109)
It's better, but not considerably better. Pedroia's 6 year peak is 35 WAR. Randolph's best 6 consecutive is 30. And then Randolph had a bunch of other 4 WAR seasons later in his career.


Of course he threw in some other 4 WAR seasons. That's how he ended up with 14 more WAR than a guy who was better than him by rate. But Pedroia at his best was considerably better (he has 78 percent of the WAR in 72 percent of the PAs, and that isn't a byproduct of a longer decline from Willie). If you go non-consecutive six best seasons, it represents about half of the career difference (37.7 to 31.0). I don't know how that's not considerably better.

Bottom line: if you're a peak-heavy guy, Pedroia's a better candidate. If you prefer career, Willie's better.

I wouldn't put either in (though I'd put Randolph in first, since I've never been a peak fetishist).

   19. Hot Wheeling American Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:24 AM (#5846111)
Hasn't come up yet because different positions, but HOF Case of Dustin Pedroia v. David Wright? Hadn't really thought through Wright's votes, but I guess he'll clear 5%? Though probably not much more. Trying to give Pedroia some benefit of the doubt given my Mets-fan bias, but they seem like very similar cases.
   20. SoSH U at work Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:30 AM (#5846113)
Hasn't come up yet because different positions, but HOF Case of Dustin Pedroia v. David Wright?


They have very similar Hall of Merit cases. I think the other stuff (MVP, ROY, two-time WS winner), that Hall voters have historically tended to like pushes Pedroia higher. Wright gets him in A-S appearances, however.
   21. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 11:21 AM (#5846129)
The obvious recent comp for Pedroia is David Wright. Both played parts of 14 seasons with one team; Wright was a much better hitter but a worse fielder at an easier position in the easier league. Both were on a HOF track before injuries.

DWright: 1585 G / 6872 PA / 50.4 WAR / 29.9 WAA
Pedroia: 1512 G / 6777 PA / 51.7 WAR / 29.2 WAA

Top 10 seasons by WAR

DWright: 8.3 / 7.1 / 6.9 / 5.9 / 4.8 / 4.1 / 3.2 / 2.8 / 2.2 / 2.2
Pedroia: 8.0 / 6.9 / 6.3 / 5.8 / 5.6 / 5.1 / 4.7 / 3.9 / 3.2 / 2.0

It's better, but not considerably better. Pedroia's 6 year peak is 35 WAR. Randolph's best 6 consecutive is 30. And then Randolph had a bunch of other 4 WAR seasons later in his career.

Yep, Randolph had 66 WAR in about 17 seasons, while Pedroia had 52 in about 11 seasons.

   22. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 11:22 AM (#5846130)
Coke to #19. Should have read the whole thread before posting.
   23. PreservedFish Posted: May 28, 2019 at 11:29 AM (#5846134)
Coke to #19. Should have read the whole thread before posting.

I just presumed that it took you at least 57 minutes to prepare that comment.
   24. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 28, 2019 at 11:49 AM (#5846139)
So, Dustin...still totally cool with Machado, and the Utley Rule is just for p*ssies?
   25. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5846140)

I just presumed that it took you at least 57 minutes to prepare that comment.

Hah...well what really happened was I read the article, went to a meeting for 45 minutes, then came back and wrote the post without reloading the thread.
   26. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 12:07 PM (#5846153)
Regardless, he is one of the those players who will never have to buy a beer at a bar in New England,


I know this is a saying that's been around for a while, but do people actually do this anymore? Buy a beer for someone that probably made more money in one season than you did in your life? Because they were good at sports?

ETA: I have seen a few athletes at bars, and they just seemed like they wanted to enjoy a drink like a non-famous person.
   27. Rally Posted: May 28, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5846155)
Pedroia vs. Doerr: If this is it, both played their last full season at age 33. Dustin a handful of games at 34-35. Both were still good players at 33. Did Doerr also have an injury or just decided to walk away?
   28. Rally Posted: May 28, 2019 at 12:18 PM (#5846161)
Yup, Bobby hurt his back near the end of the 51 season and retired rather than risk hurting it further.
   29. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 28, 2019 at 12:23 PM (#5846163)
Speaking of Randolph, he hasn't managed since leaving the Mets, where his record was pretty good. Any indications of why?
   30. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 12:50 PM (#5846173)
I know this is a saying that's been around for a while, but do people actually do this anymore? Buy a beer for someone that probably made more money in one season than you did in your life? Because they were good at sports?


I've never run into a famous athlete in a bar, but I'd rather have the story of the time I bought Dustin Pedroia a beer than the $10 in my bank account. I suspect I'm not alone there.
   31. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 28, 2019 at 01:02 PM (#5846177)
The point is that it gives the beer-buyer an excuse to hang around talking to the famous athlete.
   32. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 28, 2019 at 01:27 PM (#5846184)
Its like buying a drink for a lady. It is an excuse to interrupt their life.
   33. Zonk Will Have the Chicken Kiev Posted: May 28, 2019 at 01:28 PM (#5846186)
A buddy and I once sent a round of shots over to Rod Beck and a couple biker friends of his.... but they returned the favor and even invited us over to their table, where we drank on the Shooter's tab for the rest of the evening. Well, technically, this was a 4 AM bar at 1:30 AM, so let's say 'rest of the early morning'. Nice guy... We even offered to leave the tip (untold to him, for the sole purpose of taking the credit slip - which did have his name printed on it - and bragging about how we ran up a $200 bar tab with the Shooter with documentary evidence to prove it), but he would have none of it.
   34. SoSH U at work Posted: May 28, 2019 at 01:44 PM (#5846191)

The point is that it gives the beer-buyer an excuse to hang around talking to the famous athlete.


In that case, he wouldn't need to have done the great thing for the hometown nine that typically prompts these comments, as it did above: ("he'll never have to buy a beer in xxxtown again").

   35. PreservedFish Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:10 PM (#5846197)
In that case, he wouldn't need to have done the great thing for the hometown nine that typically prompts these comments, as it did above: ("he'll never have to buy a beer in xxxtown again").


Jeeze you guys are all acting like damn robots here.

There's at least two elements, the honest gratitude element and the "hang with a famous athlete" element. I would never buy Alex Rodriguez a beer because he's never done a damn thing for me, even if I'd get a kick out of chatting with him, but I'd buy a beer for players that I actually had affection for.
   36. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:45 PM (#5846207)
Wright and Pedroia are two of my favorite players of the last couple decades. I'd love for them to get some HOF consideration, but I don't think either will make it.

I'd buy either of them a beer if I saw them in a bar, but I wouldn't buy Wright any liquid of feces.
   37. Lassus Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:48 PM (#5846209)
a worse fielder at an easier position in the easier league.

I've never thought of 3B as an easier position than 2B, but that's probably on me.

I do find this comment a bit odd, however, in that it implies playing 3B was somehow easier in the NL than in the AL. Is that what you actually mean?
   38. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:51 PM (#5846210)
#30/31 - that makes sense. I guess I figure I just wouldn't want to go up to someone and randomly give them a beer so they'd feel obligated to talk to me. Now, if the athlete was clearly in a partying mood, a la Mike Napoli famously hitting the town after 2013, then sure, I would jump into the action.
   39. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 28, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5846216)
Speaking of Randolph, he hasn't managed since leaving the Mets, where his record was pretty good. Any indications of why?


Famous late-season collapses? The fact that he NEVER looked like he was enjoying himself, and made it abundantly clear that he didn't want his players ever to look like they were having any fun? I'm hardly close to the action, but it always looked like he would not be somebody I'd want to have as my boss.

Willie was a great player, but man he was a total bring-down as manager.
   40. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 03:06 PM (#5846217)
I've never thought of 3B as an easier position than 2B, but that's probably on me.

I do find this comment a bit odd, however, in that it implies playing 3B was somehow easier in the NL than in the AL. Is THAT what you actually mean?


I was just looking at the various components of bWAR. Wright was a much better hitter relative to average (a 155 run advantage), they were about even in baserunning/GDP, and Pedroia was a better fielder relative to average at his position (a 110 run difference).

Pedroia makes up part of the difference by playing 2B which is typically deemed a more valuable position defensively (this is only worth 7 runs over the course of their careers).

And he played in the AL, which was deemed a tougher league by bWAR. All of the above numbers relate to how a player compared to the average player in his league. The AL was a tougher league, so the difference between average and replacement level was higher for Pedroia (a 23 run difference), which brings him closer to Wright.

Wright still has 16 more Runs Above Replacement, but that translates into slightly fewer WAR -- and honestly I haven't read the explanation in a while so I'm not sure how. They both played at the same time so I would assume it also has to do with league differences. But I'm not positive.
   41. Kiko Sakata Posted: May 28, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5846222)
I can't see Doerr as rating over Pedroia. Their career WAR are in a virtual dead heat, and Pedroia's 3 best years topped any of Doerr's. And then there's the MVP.

And it's not as if Doerr suffered from military service. In fact he likely benefited from it, since he only missed one year (1945), and his best year (1944) and one of his other best years (1943) were ones where MLB consisted almost exclusively of teenagers, greybeards and 4-Fs.


Granting your point that the quality of play was down considerably in 1943 and 1944, it's also worth pointing out that Doerr was inducted in September of 1944, missing the last 21 games of that season - which, as you note, was the best season of his career - due to military service in addition to the entire 1945 season.
   42. Captain Supporter Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:18 PM (#5846236)
I'd vote for him in a second, but my criteria would have more to do with fame than with WAR. Tough guy, money player, leader, did whatever need to be done to win, flair for the dramatic, presence, annoying in some ways. Sort of reminds me of someone on my team....
   43. Hot Wheeling American Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:29 PM (#5846239)
did whatever need to be done to win

Sort of reminds me of someone on my team....


Alex Rodriguez when he agreed to move off his position after being traded to your team?
   44. Walt Davis Posted: May 28, 2019 at 06:43 PM (#5846273)
Just realized that thanks to the two farewell games, Pedroia will (likely) debut on the same ballot as Ichiro who is also an interesting comp. CC has said this is his last year -- anybody else retiring this year?
   45. Greg Pope Posted: May 28, 2019 at 06:54 PM (#5846274)
What was once considered "the worst case scenario", knee replacement, ain't so bad any more. People walk out of the hospital the day of the surgery, with little or no pain.

With knee replacement? My mother-in-law had it and she couldn't get up from a chair (or toilet) by herself for 3 weeks. Couldn't really walk at all for a week or so. Now, she was 80 and someone mentioned 60, but I can't imagine it's that much of a difference.
   46. Walt Davis Posted: May 28, 2019 at 07:09 PM (#5846276)
On 2B vs 3B, the Rpos differences are usually small enough that it's not really worth it to consider one a tougher position. CF also usually ends up around the same place. For 2B/3B it makes some sense -- in a lot of cases, both players would have begun at SS (in the minros, sometimes the majors) and the one with the arm but not the range for SS got shifted to 3B while the one with the range but not the arm got shifted to 2B. Meanwhile the guy who would have played 2B/SS if he didn't throw LH ends up in CF along with some of the guys with the range for 2B/SS who can't field grounders.

On the oddities of the WAR comparison of Wright-Pedroia ... the discrepancy is more in the RAA to WAA conversion. Wright had 306 RAA that converted to 29.9 WAA but Pedroia had 271 RAA that converted to 29.2 WAA. Then Pedroia picks up more Rrep as you noted due to league differences and those are converted at not quite 1 win per 10 so he overtakes Wright. Wright began three years earlier but even in the years they have in common, it seems that Pedroia gets a slightly better RAA to WAA conversion. I don't know why -- if anything with higher scoring in the AL, I'd think a run above average would be worth slightly less.

This is an example where I wish that, for players, we could move the league difference to the RAA side of the equation. Wright gets 50.4 WAR but 29.9 WAA compared with Pedroia's 51.7/29.2 even though Pedroia has a smidgen less playing time. The WAA difference is because Wright is being comped to the lesser league's average while WAR correctly (in the WAR universe) gives the edge to Pedroia. Given we want team WAA to correspond with team record, it makes sense to compare with league-specific average for teams but it doesn't make sense for comparing players (at least if you want to do WAA comparisons). But of course it's generally a trivial effect so not worth upsetting the WAR apple cart for ... but a Rlg field to the left of RAA on player pages would be one way to handle it (and it could be on the right or excluded from the team player value table if you wanted)
   47. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: May 28, 2019 at 07:37 PM (#5846282)
Sample size of one but the 65 year old in my building had both knees replaced and is now playing doubles tennis 3 days a week
   48. Howie Menckel Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:24 PM (#5846288)
Some famous people don't even carry money around.

A bunch of writers about 25 years ago used to play hockey at Madison Square Garden in the wee hours of the night. One semi-regular was Mike Myers, then at or near the peak of his SNL/Wayne's World fame. Everybody would chip in to pay for the ice time, but he didn't even have a wallet - much less cash.

But as noted above, they got to play hockey with Myers - which was cool by them (I mean, he's Canadian and everything).
   49. bunyon Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:44 PM (#5846296)
Surgery at 80 vs 60?

Enormous difference. Definitely don’t put that sort of thing off until you have other issues (being 80 is an issue).

My mom had it at 68, was not terribly fit and was on her feet in a day.
   50. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:15 PM (#5846303)
Speaking of Randolph, he hasn't managed since leaving the Mets, where his record was pretty good. Any indications of why?

-------------

Famous late-season collapses? The fact that he NEVER looked like he was enjoying himself, and made it abundantly clear that he didn't want his players ever to look like they were having any fun? I'm hardly close to the action, but it always looked like he would not be somebody I'd want to have as my boss.


The second collapse was under Jerry Manuel. Randolph wasn't a perfect manager, but he did a much better job than other guys who get recycled over and over. Reyes and Wright developed into stars on his watch. He had a .544 winning % in (almost) four seasons, compared to the Mets' .459 during the surrounding eight seasons. He was a first-time manager; who's to say he wouldn't have learned from some mistakes in a second opportunity. It's never made a lot of sense to me that he didn't get another job.
   51. DanG Posted: May 28, 2019 at 11:36 PM (#5846362)
Most WAR for Boston, played at least 250 games at 2B for the Red Sox:

Player         WARWAAOPSRfield   PA From   To   Age
Dustin Pedroia 51.7 29.2  113   97.0 6777 2006 2019 22
-35
Bobby Doerr    51.2 27.0  115   43.0 8028 1937 1951 19
-33
Billy Goodman  21.8  6.9  101   13.8 5065 1947 1957 21
-31
Pete Runnels   20.3 11.3  125   19.4 3004 1958 1962 30
-34
Jody Reed      14.3  4.3  101   
-1.6 3067 1987 1992 24-29
Hobe Ferris    12.6 
-2.4   83   68.0 3923 1901 1907 26-32
Mike Andrews   10.8  2.6  108  
-23.6 2466 1966 1970 22-26
Marty Barrett   9.3 
-2.3   87   -2.0 3816 1982 1990 24-32
Del Pratt       6.8  2.1  110   
-2.0 1248 1921 1922 33-34
Jerry Remy      6.5 
-3.2   81   -6.4 3118 1978 1984 25-31 
   52. Dr. Vaux Posted: May 28, 2019 at 11:52 PM (#5846366)
Randolph and Manuel both seem like managers who would have gotten at least one more opportunity if not for the analytics revolution in front offices. Over the past 10 years, teams have shifted to hiring younger managers who they think will be more pliable, if for no other reason than that they owe the front offices their jobs. Manny Acta is another who would have gotten more chances, and probably Brad Mills, and also the next manager of the Astros, whose name escapes me at the moment, and probably a bunch of other guys. And Buck Showalter would certainly be managing a team this year, as would Joe Girardi.
   53. base ball chick Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:00 AM (#5846368)
the next manager of the astros was bo porter
who was NOT pliable
ha a FIT along with the rest of the team when prospect mark appel, who, to be nice about it, was suited up and sent to "work out" with the major leaguers who, um, objected, and bo stood for them, not management, and he was gone

the FO doesn't like managers who do stuff loike stand up for their players against the FO when the FO is rongggggg
   54. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 29, 2019 at 04:17 AM (#5846381)
Puckett's case relied on the idea that without an act of God (they eye condition) then he gets his 3000 hits and makes the Hall cleanly. You could sort of spin the knee injury the same way.

In Pedroia's case, it was more of an act of Satan.
   55. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:19 PM (#5846503)
The second collapse was under Jerry Manuel


I'd forgotten, should've looked it up before butting in.

Speaking of buts: But the Mets were under .500 when Manuel replaced Randolph. Didn't look like they'd have a chance to collapse again.
   56. JL72 Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:13 PM (#5846534)
Puckett's case relied on the idea that without an act of God (they eye condition) then he gets his 3000 hits and makes the Hall cleanly. You could sort of spin the knee injury the same way.


Not sure that happens. Injuries related to playing, which Pedroia's knee damage clearly is, seem different than those that are unrelated to playing.
   57. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: May 29, 2019 at 04:35 PM (#5846603)
Now, she was 80 and someone mentioned 60, but I can't imagine it's that much of a difference.


Spoken like a very young man.
   58. Greg Pope Posted: May 30, 2019 at 09:57 AM (#5846742)
OK, so in looking it up, the recovery is faster than I thought. But I still think "People walk out of the hospital the day of the surgery, with little or no pain." is an exaggeration. To pick one site, WebMD says:

Day 2 you should be able to get to the bathroom with a little help.
Day 3-4 you may be able to get in and out of a chair without help and you may be able to use crutches or a walker
Week 2 take short walks, but use a cane, crutches, or walker
Weeks 3-6 "back in action"
   59. DL from MN Posted: May 30, 2019 at 11:15 AM (#5846779)
Both Pedroia and Doerr received MMP votes in 3 separate elections. Doerr has less defensive value than Pedroia though I'm not sure the standard deviation is the same in defensive statistics across eras so Doerr might be a better fielder than he is getting credit for. It took Doerr 35 years to get elected after his retirement so you can start planning on attending induction weekend for Pedroia in 2055.
   60. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: May 30, 2019 at 04:03 PM (#5846903)
But I still think "People walk out of the hospital the day of the surgery, with little or no pain." is an exaggeration.


That site talks about older people who have the surgery. When younger people (aged 40 to 60) have it, it can be done on an outpatient basis. They give you painkillers, but they're not always needed. You start physical therapy almost instantly. I mean, there's discomfort, but nothing that you couldn't handle, with or without meds.

edit...unhappily, I've become a candidate for one. My info comes from discussions with the orthopedic surgeon, and people who have had the procedure (2). Both said they walked out of the hospital the day of the surgery with no assistance.
   61. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 30, 2019 at 04:07 PM (#5846908)
Day 2 you should be able to get to the bathroom with a little help.
Day 3-4 you may be able to get in and out of a chair without help and you may be able to use crutches or a walker
Hell, that sounds like a hangover after age 40.
   62. Nasty Nate Posted: May 30, 2019 at 04:16 PM (#5846913)
Speaking of getting old, the A's released Fernando Rodney. He was the last player in the bigs older than me (not counting Pujols, potentially).
   63. jmurph Posted: May 30, 2019 at 04:22 PM (#5846914)
When younger people (aged 40 to 60)

As a 39 year old, I deeply appreciate this phrasing.
   64. Bleed the Freak Posted: May 31, 2019 at 12:22 AM (#5847033)
12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:47 AM (#5846096)
I can't see Doerr as rating over Pedroia. Their career WAR are in a virtual dead heat, and Pedroia's 3 best years topped any of Doerr's. And then there's the MVP.

And it's not as if Doerr suffered from military service. In fact he likely benefited from it, since he only missed one year (1945), and his best year (1944) and one of his other best years (1943) were ones where MLB consisted almost exclusively of teenagers, greybeards and 4-Fs. I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the HoF, but he wasn't better than Pedroia.

EDIT: That's not to say that Pedroia deserves the HoF over Grich, Whitaker or Randolph. But their omission constitutes a separate scandal.


Doerr may have hidden baserunning value:
https://homemlb.wordpress.com/2017/02/24/special-backlog-election-results-welcome-home-bobby-doerr/

Kiko can weigh in, but his site has Doerr ahead of Pedroia in a landslide, and that's before WWII credit.
   65. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: May 31, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5847066)
As a 39 year old, I deeply appreciate this phrasing.


Turning 61 in August, so I'll be sliding that scale.
   66. Greg Pope Posted: May 31, 2019 at 10:18 AM (#5847073)
My info comes from discussions with the orthopedic surgeon, and people who have had the procedure (2). Both said they walked out of the hospital the day of the surgery with no assistance.

OK, I concede the point.
   67. JL72 Posted: May 31, 2019 at 10:23 AM (#5847074)
When younger people (aged 40 to 60) have it, it can be done on an outpatient basis. They give you painkillers, but they're not always needed.


I suspect a large part of that is that the pain that is experienced after surgery is often not much more than what was being experience before hand. As one anecdote, my BiL had both knees replaced at age 57 or so. He told me the pain was about the same before and after, just in different parts of the knee.
   68. Hank Gillette Posted: May 31, 2019 at 06:37 PM (#5847199)
I know this is a saying that's been around for a while, but do people actually do this anymore? Buy a beer for someone that probably made more money in one season than you did in your life?


It’s been over 30 years now, and rather than an athlete, it was actor Robert Conrad, but I saw him at a ski resort bar once, and he was not buying any of his own drinks. It’s a way of connecting with a celebrity, rather than trying to just walk up to them and saying hello. I don’t imagine all celebrities enjoy the attention, but Conrad seemed to be reveling it.
   69. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: June 04, 2019 at 06:37 PM (#5848450)
OK, I concede the point.


Too soon. I spoke with my friend, who had the surgery last year, last night. I said to him, "you told me it was an easy recovery, right?" He said that for about a week after it was the worst pain he'd ever been in. So, oops. (He's in his mid-50's)

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