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Tuesday, February 12, 2013

Perry: Braves pass on ‘screaming Indian’ hat logo

The reality is that in 2013 this is what is known as “a smart business decision.”

Quelle surprise.

spike Posted: February 12, 2013 at 11:14 AM | 222 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves

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   101. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4368695)
Nobody worries about Southerners being offended by a team called the Yankees.


The hats and gear makes future targeting simpler and easier.
   102. Lassus Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4368697)
Re-posting for the flip for being dead on.
100. JuanGone..except1game Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:01 PM (#4368692)

Well they need a joke and the only safe target is a white male.

This is so silly that it shouldn't even require a response. You moan about a couple instances of white males getting targeted as a joke, while dismissing the millions of images of white males as the good father, or the businessman, or the leader of the meeting, and so on and so forth. There have been billions (probably trillions) of dollars in advertising over the years with white men as every positive stereotype and your so concerned with playing the victim that you can't even recognize that. Who saves the damsel in distress in tv/movies? Who plays the financial advisor? Who plays the good father on the sitcom? This is the equivalent of Derek Jeter complaining about the one time they made a negative story about his gift baskets and his giant house.
   103. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:07 PM (#4368699)
Who plays the good father on the sitcom?


Phil Dunphy is the best dad in TV history.
   104. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:10 PM (#4368702)
I'm a 40 year old white male. The idea that I'm mistreated in some way by the media or society as a whole is laughable.
   105. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:13 PM (#4368704)
The idea that naming your basketball team "Bullets" is going to cause one more round of even a cap pistol to be fired somewhere in Landover or Columbia Heights is just so ridiculous it's almost beyond parody.

This is nothing close to what Yearrgh or I said, however, or why we don't think the renaming is similarly ridiculous.


You wrote "It's more of a constant reminder people were getting their asses shot and killed on a regular basis in the area...". Admittedly that's not the same thing as claiming a cause-and-effect link between the name and the tragedies, but if there's no such link, then you have to wonder why Pollen made such a big public show of the switch.

Yearrgh called it "a matter of taste and class", but that sort of aesthetic judgment, besides being well, judgmental, also fails to establish any connection between the longstanding nickname and the tragedies it's apparently being connected to. You can assert a purely symbolic connection as a reason for the change, but IMO it amounted to (pardon the expression) overkill on a comical level. It wasn't as if the Bullets were staging mock gunfights during halftime, but from the solemnity of Pollen's statement, one might have thought that something like that was at issue.
   106. Ron J2 Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:14 PM (#4368708)
#25 Yeah, the Trail of Tears is particularly difficult to categorize. At best it was an irresponsible (in the sense of not caring about the cost in lives) ethnic cleansing. Basically what the Turks claim happened with the Armenians.

The numbers were of course larger in the Armenian genocide, but the casualty rate seem comparable. I'm comfortable calling the Armenian event "genocide". Not totally clear about the Trail of Tears.

   107. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4368712)
Nobody worries about Southerners being offended by a team called the Yankees.


I always sort of assumed that the term was derisive and was then adopted by the "Yankees" as a point of semi-perverse pride so I am not sure why southerners should be offended (other than perhaps as a reminder they are losers who lost the War of Northern Aggression, and if they don't watch themselves we might just aggress again - "The North Shall Agress Again" is a cry I have heard many times).
   108. PreservedFish Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4368713)
I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me -- no matter how dumb my suggestions are.
   109. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4368716)
I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me -- no matter how dumb my suggestions are.


We have been meaning to talk to you about that. Honestly we are not really listening, just sort of nodding our head.
   110. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:27 PM (#4368721)
I'm a 40 year old white male. The idea that I'm mistreated in some way by the media or society as a whole is laughable.


Whether you feel mistreated or not is not the issue, since nobody cares, since you're a white male.

The point is that (straight) white males are a safe target. And they are. Nobody worries about whether something will be offensive to the straight white male. Do you dispute this?

In contrast, many people worry about offending minorities, or women, or homosexuals.
   111. Flynn Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM (#4368728)
I'm with Louis CK... I'm a white male, you can't even hurt my feelings.

Honky? Come on.

   112. Ron J2 Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4368734)
#84 About the way I see it. I'm aware that only a tiny fraction of the group being stereotyped found it offensive. I'd just generally prefer not to offend them.
   113. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:40 PM (#4368736)
The point is that (straight) white males are a safe target. And they are. Nobody worries about whether something will be offensive to the straight white male.


Not true. Lassus is, as best I can ascertain, a straight white male, and you can't piss on pregnant immigrant lesbian while you're forcing her into an abortion clinic without offending that guy.
   114. Tilden Katz Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4368743)
I'm a white male, age 18 to 49. Everyone listens to me -- no matter how dumb my suggestions are.


Dammit you beat me to it! I can at least provide the video
   115. Mike A Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4368745)
It does annoy me that one of the only groups it's OK to make fun of is the poor white Southerner. Instead of trying to educate and help, the intelligentsia would rather jump on those redneck stereotypes.

Be that as it may, I'm glad the Braves decided to ditch this idea. As a long-time Braves fan, there was a time I didn't get the uproar over the mascot/logo/Chief Nocahoma (I remember the protests outside the stadium in 1991). But I've since read some articles/studies on the negative influence of stereotypes on Native American youth, and that was enough to sway me to the other side. Might as well err on the side of caution, and though the mascot is a part of history, it can stay retired.

And offensive or not, the tomahawk chop has overstayed its welcome. At the least, save it for the playoffs.
   116. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:53 PM (#4368746)
I always sort of assumed that the term was derisive and was then adopted by the "Yankees" as a point of semi-perverse pride so I am not sure why southerners should be offended (other than perhaps as a reminder they are losers who lost the War of Northern Aggression, and if they don't watch themselves we might just aggress again - "The North Shall Agress Again" is a cry I have heard many times).

"Yankees" first referred to the pre-revolutionary war epithet used by the Brits, that was directed against the colonists, primarily the northern ones. Sometime around 1913 or 1914 the baseball team began being called "Yankees" in the press simply because it was easier to fit "Yankees" (or "Yanks") rather than "Highlanders" into a newspaper headline. The name was created by the Highlanders' traveling secretary and a writer for the New York Journal, and its origin had nothing to do with the Civil War.
   117. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:54 PM (#4368747)
It does annoy me that one of the only groups it's OK to make fun of is the poor white Southerner. Instead of trying to educate and help, the intelligentsia would rather jump on those redneck stereotypes.

Then I guess you might not favor my longstanding suggestion to change the Redskins name to the Rednecks.
   118. Lassus Posted: February 13, 2013 at 12:54 PM (#4368748)
Not true. Lassus is, as best I can ascertain, a straight white male, and you can't piss on pregnant immigrant lesbian while you're forcing her into an abortion clinic without offending that guy.

You're quite the delicate flower if you think you can detect anywhere where I was recently offended. Irritated, judgmental, and dismissive is something different.
   119. spike Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:00 PM (#4368753)
It does annoy me that one of the only groups it's OK to make fun of is the poor white Southerner.

Because it's primarily done by and for poor white Southerners - Foxworthy, Grizzard, Cable Guy et al perpetuate the stereotypes to the group itself, and are handsomely paid by them to do so. The group itself goes out of their way to hew to the images and take great pride of ownership of them.
   120. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:03 PM (#4368759)
The name was created by the Highlanders' traveling secretary and a writer for the New York Journal, and its origin had nothing to do with the Civil War.

Isn't that what most offensive nicknames and traditions generally say? Hey, we did it because of X not Y. see the Cleveland Indians for proof of this.
   121. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:06 PM (#4368762)
Yearrgh called it "a matter of taste and class", but that sort of aesthetic judgment, besides being well, judgmental, also fails to establish any connection between the longstanding nickname and the tragedies it's apparently being connected to. You can assert a purely symbolic connection as a reason for the change, but IMO it amounted to (pardon the expression) overkill on a comical level.


Would renaming a high school team in Newtown, CT from the "Bushmasters" (i.e. the snake) to the "Wizards" be overkill?
   122. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4368768)
It does annoy me that one of the only groups it's OK to make fun of is the poor white Southerner. Instead of trying to educate and help, the intelligentsia would rather jump on those redneck stereotypes.


The funny but not really part is that people seem to conflate poor white trash with "privileged white men" as if the two classes have ever intermingled.
   123. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4368769)
Yes.
   124. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:10 PM (#4368770)
The name was created by the Highlanders' traveling secretary and a writer for the New York Journal, and its origin had nothing to do with the Civil War.

Isn't that what most offensive nicknames and traditions generally say? Hey, we did it because of X not Y. see the Cleveland Indians for proof of this.


Well, Mr. John Wilkes Booth VIII, if you choose to be offended by something as patriotically symbolic as this, be my guest.
   125. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4368773)
It does annoy me that one of the only groups it's OK to make fun of is the poor white Southerner. Instead of trying to educate and help, the intelligentsia would rather jump on those redneck stereotypes.

Then I guess you might not favor my longstanding suggestion to change the Redskins name to the Rednecks.


I'm all for a team of Rednecks, but I wouldn't waste that opportunity in Washington DC of all places.
   126. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4368775)
Would renaming a high school team in Newtown, CT from the "Bushmasters" (i.e. the snake) to the "Wizards" be overkill?

Find me an actual example like that and I'll agree with the point you're straining to make.
   127. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4368779)
Find me an actual example like that and I'll agree with the point you're straining to make.


Stanford.
   128. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4368780)
I'm all for a team of Rednecks, but I wouldn't waste that opportunity in Washington DC of all places.

Are you kidding? Hell, they wouldn't even have to change the cadence of their glorious marching song.
   129. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:18 PM (#4368781)
I'm all for a team of Rednecks, but I wouldn't waste that opportunity in Washington DC of all places.


Would have been better than the "Titans."
   130. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4368782)
Find me an actual example like that and I'll agree with the point you're straining to make.

Stanford.


We were talking about bullets, not Indians, but since you insist....
   131. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:23 PM (#4368785)
We were talking about bullets, not Indians


Sorry, I thought the general conversation was about institutions that changed their mascot/name from something that killed a lot of people to something that didn't.
   132. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:23 PM (#4368786)
You can't have a team of Rednecks and not have "Dixie" as the official song.
   133. Lassus Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:31 PM (#4368792)
Sorry, I thought the general conversation was about institutions that changed their mascot/name from something that killed a lot of people to something that didn't.

In the case of the Bullets, I'd go with "is currently" and "will tomorrow".
   134. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4368797)
Yearrgh called it "a matter of taste and class", but that sort of aesthetic judgment, besides being well, judgmental, also fails to establish any connection between the longstanding nickname and the tragedies it's apparently being connected to. You can assert a purely symbolic connection as a reason for the change, but IMO it amounted to (pardon the expression) overkill on a comical level.

What a dumb comment. No one is claiming any real "connection" between the name and the shootings and it's hardly a gotcha to point out that the connection is "purely symbolic." Thanks captain obvious. But Abe Pollin and many others thought the name was in bad taste and that absolutely no one would be harmed by changing it.
   135. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4368799)

In the case of the Bullets, I'd go with "is currently" and "will tomorrow".


Wizards are going to kill a bunch of people tomorrow?
   136. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4368800)
In the case of the Bullets, I'd go with "is currently" and "will tomorrow"


You're more likely to die tomorrow by tree attack, or because of the color red, than you are by wizard attack. I'm pretty sure of that.
   137. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:42 PM (#4368802)
To act as if this is a real scourge that needs to be stomped out to protect the fragile Native American community...far more racist.

The reason (mostly liberal) people want the "scorge" stomped out isn't to protect the fragile Native American community, it's to protect the fragile, riddled with guilt psyche of (mostly liberal) Whitey.
   138. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4368805)
Except that I'm not aware of a single NA group -- made up of, you know, people who actually are of that ancestry -- that are anything but opposed to logos like this.

How about the Seminole tribe, which signed off on Florida State University using the name, as well as the white guy dressed in red face and feathers who rides in on a white stallion and plants a fiery arrow at midfield before every game?

We've been through this with the NCAA names. If Whitey's bribes were big enough, they could obtain tribal sign-off. In several cases, delivered.
   139. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4368810)
Since this seems to be 1) a Braves related thread and 2) a thread where we can randomly throw out potentially offensive thoughts for our amusement, I'll note that yesterday the AJC posted a photo stream from the first day of spring training, wherein they mixed up the captioning and called BJ Justin, and Justin BJ. They did get Jason Heyward correctly identified, though, so it was a total "they all look the same to me" situation, I suppose.
   140. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:47 PM (#4368811)
How about the Seminole tribe, which signed off on Florida State University using the name, as well as the white guy dressed in red face and feathers who rides in on a white stallion and plants a fiery arrow at midfield before every game?


I'm pretty sure that for a long time in the 1990s, the foam tomahawks passed out at Braves games were manufactured by the Cherokee Nation in NC.
   141. Lassus Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4368813)
You're more likely to die tomorrow by tree attack, or because of the color red, than you are by wizard attack. I'm pretty sure of that.

"from something that killed a lot of people"
   142. Nasty Nate Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4368814)
"they all look the same to me"


I think it's fair to give them a complete pass on this suspicion when the people in question are literally brothers.
   143. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4368815)
I think it's fair to give them a complete pass on this suspicion when the people in question are literally brothers.


Except they look *nothing* alike.
   144. Shredder Posted: February 13, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4368819)
You're more likely to die tomorrow by tree attack, or because of the color red, than you are by wizard attack. I'm pretty sure of that.
You're probably right, but just in case, I try to 'BEHOLD!' as often as possible. May only work on bearded wizards though.
   145. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4368828)
You're probably right, but just in case, I try to 'BEHOLD!' as often as possible. May only work on bearded wizards though.


Definitely not on ents.
   146. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:05 PM (#4368829)
Who saves the damsel in distress in tv/movies?

Shaft?

   147. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:13 PM (#4368834)
This is so silly that it shouldn't even require a response. You moan about a couple instances of white males getting targeted as a joke, while dismissing the millions of images of white males as the good father, or the businessman, or the leader of the meeting, and so on and so forth.

Well, no. Sadly you missed the point. Make fun of white males all you want. I don't care, we'll be fine.


The reason (mostly liberal) people want the "scorge" stomped out isn't to protect the fragile Native American community, it's to protect the fragile, riddled with guilt psyche of (mostly liberal) Whitey.


Sort of. The Native American largely don't give a #### and aren't affected one way or the other. It's pretty much just Whitey who thinks they need to be protected. Whether that's because of guilt or that Whitey thinks they need to protect an 'oppressed' community varies by the individual.

I'll note that yesterday the AJC posted a photo stream from the first day of spring training, wherein they mixed up the captioning and called BJ Justin, and Justin BJ

This is probably going to happen a lot. There was one season of USC basketball where they had three set of twins on the team. One of George Raveling main recruiting strategies in those days was to get a player who might normally be above USC's level by also offering his twin. For the media and the announcers it was pretty much a nightmare scenario.

   148. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:17 PM (#4368839)
But Abe Pollin and many others thought the name was in bad taste and that absolutely no one would be harmed by changing it.

And he was wrong. People have a strong affinity with the symbols and names of their favorite sports club(s). It's bizarre that a bunch of sports fans would value the harm in radically changing those symbols and names at "zero."

In point of fact it isn't zero (or anything close), and no one in this conversation truly believes it's zero.
   149. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4368841)
This is probably going to happen a lot. There was one season of USC basketball where they had three set of twins on the team. One of George Raveling main recruiting strategies in those days was to get a player who might normally be above USC's level by also offering his twin. For the media and the announcers it was pretty much a nightmare scenario.


I am personally rooting for an elimination of all of the OFs names, so that Joe Simpson has to say things like "and the play is made in shallow right center by one of the Outfielders of Color."
   150. phredbird Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4368842)
so?

the commercials depicting white males as incompetent halfwits are easily 90% plus created, written and filmed by white males. they are in control of their cultural stereotypes.


Yeah. That's why I blame slavery in the US largely on the black Africans who sold their own into slavery.


not the same thing and you know it.

the point i'm making is that the 'dumb white male' stereotype, or 'dumb dad' if you will, is not being put forward by african americans or asians in a paternalistic situation. the roots of the offensive mascot problem are in a time when those ethnic identities were appropriated with impunity by white males. personally, i find that embarassing and if i had my way i would certainly not want to call a football team 'redskins' if i was in charge of naming it -- don't care what the native americans think from some poll. polls aren't where i get my moral bearings. i support changing those names. am i going to charge up a hill and die to do it? naw, there are more important things to worry about. but i don't root for washington or atlanta, and part of my distaste for those teams is the unrecondite, overly defensive attitude of the fans who have no real reason to oppose a name change. it's a simple thing to do and won't cause the universe to collapse or time to run backwards. stanford did it, and AFAICT it hasn't hurt the institution. but you know, those brie-eating chardonnay-sucking cali sissies aren't really red blooded sports fans are they?

by the way, who did the africans sell the slaves to? was it ... white males who could have maybe found other ways to get labor for their farms if they had the guts or foresight or whatever it takes to do the right thing?
   151. TDF, situational idiot Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:26 PM (#4368847)
Changing the hat is a small, simple gesture that (1) doesn't hurt anyone but (2) shows you're actually paying attention to someone other than yourself.

I have no right to decide what offends you. If that makes me PC, then I so be it.


Yet the people crying for it to be changed don't have pay attention anyone other than themselves? How about everybody just worry about themselves and those close to them? Don't like the hat then don't buy it or watch the Braves. Problem solved.
Either you didn't read the bolded point, or you really don't care about anyone other than yourself.
   152. SoSH U at work Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4368849)
point of fact it isn't zero (or anything close), and no one in this conversation truly believes it's zero.


I'd guess that in the long term, it is pretty close to zero. I suspect the vast majority of the "I won't ever root for (new name) again" are mostly full of ####.

Edit: Fixed.
   153. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:28 PM (#4368850)
i don't root for washington or atlanta, and part of my distaste for those teams is the unrecondite, overly defensive attitude of the fans who have no real reason to oppose a name change. it's a simple thing to do and won't cause the universe to collapse or time to run backwards.

Yeah, somehow this has become a winning argument. It has led to a small group of people who are offended by everything to be able to demand, and most times get, anything and everything changed. This is not actually a desirable outcome.
   154. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4368852)
Either you didn't read the bolded point, or you really don't care about anyone other than yourself.

Except that isn't true. White people want to change the hat because of the attention they're paying to themselves, and the attention they want paid to themselves. Moreover, if they were actually paying attention to the real sentiments of real Native Americans, they'd realize, as all the polls show, that Native Americans don't particularly care about these symbols. As always, modern liberals tend to bond more closely with what their imagination tells them about minority groups than with the actual people who comprise those groups.

The most "offensive" of any of these symbols (by far, really) is the aforementioned "Seminole" on white stallion. It's still around because the Seminoles didn't care that it's still around. When that goes away, the conversation might start to make a little more sense.
   155. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4368854)
Who plays the good father on the sitcom?

Oh, and my gold standard will always be Carl Winslow. And sure, his youngest ended up doing porn but, hey, nobody's perfect.

The most "offensive" of any of these symbols (by far, really) is the aforementioned "Seminole" on white stallion.

This kills me. Of course my alma matter, USC, also has a guy on a horse come and stab the field. The idea that a Trojan, you know if they still existed, would be offended by this is bewildering. What is the offense? The statement is essentially "We used to kick some ass in our day". This is a message that is holding back their kids?
   156. Shredder Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4368855)
In point of fact it isn't zero (or anything close), and no one in this conversation truly believes it's zero.
Well, I think defining "zero" in this case as "absolutely not one single individual on the planet" is a bit aggressive. More likely, the damage done (if any) was imperceptible, and likely net zero. Did anyone stop rooting for Washington because they renamed the team? Maybe certain individuals, but doubtful it was noticeable.

Or what SoSH said.
   157. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:37 PM (#4368858)
i don't root for washington or atlanta, and part of my distaste for those teams is the unrecondite, overly defensive attitude of the fans who have no real reason to oppose a name change.


Fans of teams support teams they're emotionally attached to. If the Braves changed their names (which would be pretty silly, considering that 'Braves' isn't offensive, though the screaming/laughing Indian head image might be) the fans would follow along. If they don't, the fans will tell fans of other teams to #### off when they lecture us about propriety and concern for others. It's hard to take seriously lectures of that type from fans of northeastern teams who until very recently required armed police presences in their bleacher sections.
   158. Rusty Priske Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:42 PM (#4368862)
This was a good decisions by the team.

Now if they could convince fans to stop doing that bloody 'chop' then they would a let better positioned to defend the team name.


Nothing could defend Cleveland.


(And ABSOLUTELY nothing could defend the Washington Redskins)
   159. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4368867)
No one is claiming any real "connection" between the name and the shootings and it's hardly a gotcha to point out that the connection is "purely symbolic." Thanks captain obvious. But Abe Pollin and many others thought the name was in bad taste and that absolutely no one would be harmed by changing it.

And nobody would be harmed if he'd kept the Bullets name, either. If you'd taken a poll of Bullets fans at the time, they likely would've voted overwhelmingly against the change, which was widely mocked.

Look, it was Pollin's team and he had a perfect right to his own interpretation of "good taste." Most Bullets fans would have found this particular example of "good taste" a strange thing to have concentrated his imagination on.
   160. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4368868)

The reason (mostly liberal) people want the "scorge" stomped out isn't to protect the fragile Native American community, it's to protect the fragile, riddled with guilt psyche of (mostly liberal) Whitey.


And suggesting "You know 'x' is kind of offensive" <> 'want the "scorge" stomped out' and says nothing about anyone being riddled with guilt. Some of us think "Redskins" and so on is offensive based on how we percieve the terms, history, and so on. I have not exactly lost any sleep over it or anything, but I am pretty sure I am allowed to express those feelings.
   161. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4368872)
Either you didn't read the bolded point, or you really don't care about anyone other than yourself.

For the most part I don't and neither does anyone else. But I'll say it again. If changing names show you are thinking about others what does that say about people who want it changed. Doesn't that show they aren't thinking about the people who don't want it changed.
   162. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:51 PM (#4368873)
This kills me. Of course my alma matter, USC, also has a guy on a horse come and stab the field. The idea that a Trojan, you know if they still existed, would be offended by this is bewildering. What is the offense? The statement is essentially "We used to kick some ass in our day". This is a message that is holding back their kids?


And the history of the US regarding Native Americans and that of the US regarding Trojans (non-condom division) is so similar that your analogy is spot on.

That would be sarcasm, by the way.
   163. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 02:53 PM (#4368876)
And nobody would be harmed if he'd kept the Bullets name, either. If you'd taken a poll of Bullets fans at the time, they likely would've voted overwhelmingly against the change, which was widely mocked.


Hell, the Nashville NHL team is named after a freaking military drone! It's like double-plus bullets squared.
   164. Shredder Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4368879)
The reason (mostly liberal) people want the "scorge" stomped out isn't to protect the fragile Native American community, it's to protect the fragile, riddled with guilt psyche of (mostly liberal) Whitey.
I didn't feel the least bit guilty about enjoying the Chief during half time shows at Illinois football and basketball games. But some people, many of them Native American, found it offensive. I don't share that background, so I can't really stand in their shoes. But again, if you can do something that some people legitimately find offensive, and something that nobody legitimately finds offensive, I don't think it's a particularly difficult decision to make.

That said, I was at Illinois when this was reaching its apex, and I recall listening to the testimony of people on both sides of the argument, and I do think both sides went a bit overboard. I recall a Native American student saying that she felt very uncomfortable the entire time on campus, which struck me as a bit over-dramatic. It's not as if students were walking around wearing headdresses. But ultimately, getting rid of the Chief was a pretty small gesture to have to make.
   165. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4368880)
I recall a Native American student saying that she felt very uncomfortable the entire time on campus, which struck me as a bit over-dramatic.


Why would this person attend the University of Illinois then?
   166. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4368881)
And the history of the US regarding Native Americans

Sorry to disappoint you, but changing the name of the Washington Redskins isn't going to change that history one iota. What's done is done and Whitey's guilt at what's done isn't payback for what Whitey did. It's, frankly, embarrassing to see people think that it is.
   167. TDF, situational idiot Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:06 PM (#4368883)
If changing names show you are thinking about others what does that say about people who want it changed.
The Braves are a business; it's in their best interest to avoid offending current and potential customers.

What I want isn't here or there - I'm surprised these images of "savages" are still used (or worse, the cartoon Cleveland uses), but as a Caucasian I can't really be "offended". I can choose to patronize their business or not (because if a business doesn't care about some of their customers, why would I think they care about me?), but that's about the extent of it.

But if even one Native American is offended, it's in the business interest of the Braves to address the logo somehow. They have chosen how, and that should be the end of it.
   168. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4368884)
People find killing animals for food offensive. Should colleges ban animal products so as to not offend some people? Afterall, nowadays it costs relatively little in time and money to go meatless. But that isn't going because we really like meat and we think those vegans are silly. It's amazing how little we'll bend when we actually care about the subject.
   169. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:08 PM (#4368885)
The reason (mostly liberal) people want the "scorge" stomped out isn't to protect the fragile Native American community, it's to protect the fragile, riddled with guilt psyche of (mostly liberal) Whitey.


And this is why liberals don't mind if straight white males are dumped upon.
   170. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:08 PM (#4368886)
Sorry to disappoint you, but changing the name of the Washington Redskins isn't going to change that history one iota. What's done is done and Whitey's guilt at what's done isn't payback for what Whitey did. It's, frankly, embarrassing to see people think that it is.


What? That is not what I was saying at all. What I was saying is that the term in question needs to be evaluated in the context of history.

Redskins and Trojan should both be evaluated in the terms of the US and its history towards them. This is why nearly no one in the known universe cares about Trojans as a mascot and why the Native American terms get more scrutiny from all sides.

Who said anything even sort of like change the name will make anyone feel better about or change history?
   171. JuanGone..except1game Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:09 PM (#4368887)
Why would this person attend the University of Illinois then?


In-state tuition rates at the best state college in Illinois. Not everybody can afford to have the parents send them to Harvard.
   172. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:10 PM (#4368890)
But if even one Native American is offended, it's in the business interest of the Braves to address the logo somehow. They have chosen how, and that should be the end of it.

No it isn't. It's absurd to think that a huge corporation selling products to millions of people have to address a lone offended person.
   173. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4368892)
In-state tuition rates at the best state college in Illinois. Not everybody can afford to have the parents send them to Harvard.

So you make a choice. Which is what we all do in life. It isn't like the U of I snuck their mascot into campus life one day.
   174. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4368895)
People find killing animals for food offensive. Should colleges ban animal products so as to not offend some people? Afterall, nowadays it costs relatively little in time and money to go meatless. But that isn't going because we really like meat and we think those vegans are silly. It's amazing how little we'll bend when we actually care about the subject.


Well colleges can do that. I think it is a terrible analogy for many many reasons, but colleges can change their nickname, mascot, or cafeteria menu, sure. And I get to have an opinion (and so do you) about it.

And this is why liberals don't mind if straight white males are dumped upon.


As always Ray looks into the soul of the Liberal. Quite the seer our Ray. It is spooky how well he can so completely and accurately capture the essense of an argument, and then throw it away to post some random thought that bubbled up from some fever swamp somewhere.
   175. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:14 PM (#4368896)
So you make a choice. Which is what we all do in life. It isn't like the U of I snuck their mascot into campus life one day.


And their choice was to go, feel uncomfortable, and then mention that in a hearing. Or are you suggesting that once they decide to go they don't get to feel uncomfortable or to speak out about it? I guess you think choice only goes so far.
   176. TDF, situational idiot Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:14 PM (#4368897)
But if even one Native American is offended, it's in the business interest of the Braves to address the logo somehow. They have chosen how, and that should be the end of it.

No it isn't. It's absurd to think that a huge corporation selling products to millions of people have to address a lone offended person.
Uh, no, it's not. Huge corporations address the issues of single customers every day - it's where the term "customer service" comes from and is a very good way for a small company to become a huge corporation.
   177. Srul Itza Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4368903)
I will start caring about what that Chicago/Baltimore/Capital/Washington Packers/Zephyrs/Bullets/Wizards call themselves when they become relevant again. Seriously, it's tough to remember some times that they are even still in the league.
   178. JuanGone..except1game Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4368904)
So you make a choice. Which is what we all do in life. It isn't like the U of I snuck their mascot into campus life one day.


Seriously!! She made a choice. She complained about some of the things that came with that choice. How is this different than every other being on this planet. Hell, this whole board (including myself) is made up of fans of teams (CLE) that mostly ##### about their teams that they CHOOSE. You can not like that she's complaining about the mascot or that it makes her uncomfortable, but if your objecting to her voicing that complaint, that just makes no sense.

Edit: Coke to Bitter Mouse for saying it in fewer words.
   179. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4368905)

And their choice was to go, feel uncomfortable, and then mention that in a hearing. Or are you suggesting that once they decide to go they don't get to feel uncomfortable or to speak out about it? I guess you think choice only goes so far.


Speak out about it? Sure. Change it? Only if the majority want it so. Alas, that does not happen nowadays. A handful of people make noise and a carrot is throw at them to appease them.
   180. TDF, situational idiot Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4368906)
People find killing animals for food offensive. Should colleges ban animal products so as to not offend some people? Afterall, nowadays it costs relatively little in time and money to go meatless. But that isn't going because we really like meat and we think those vegans are silly. It's amazing how little we'll bend when we actually care about the subject.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's very easy to eat healthy, meatless meals at almost every college in the country these days directly to address the wants and needs of vegetarian and vegan students.

   181. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4368910)
Uh, no, it's not. Huge corporations address the issues of single customers every day - it's where the term "customer service" comes from and is a very good way for a small company to become a huge corporation.

Customer service is a company's division that basically tells the customer to go eff themselves. Sometimes in a polite way and sometimes in a not so polite way. If you truly think that some company cares about what some lone nutjob thinks about their product then I've got some cancer free cigarettes to sell to you.

Small companies don't become huge corporations because they address one lone offended person.
   182. JuanGone..except1game Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4368911)
Speak out about it? Sure. Change it? Only if the majority want it so.


You should explain this to Senate and House Republicans.
   183. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4368913)
No it isn't. It's absurd to think that a huge corporation selling products to millions of people have to address a lone offended person.


The Braves made a decision to protect their Brand from negative press in the marketplace. That is all.
   184. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4368920)
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's very easy to eat healthy, meatless meals at almost every college in the country these days directly to address the wants and needs of vegetarian and vegan students.

But the mere presence of killed animal product is enough to offend some people. They aren't refusing to eat animal product because they don't like the taste of meat. They are offended by animal products because they don't like the fact that we're killing billions of animals. So giving them vegan options isn't the answer to the problem. Clearly colleges need to ban animal products entirely from their campuses.
   185. Shredder Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4368925)
People find killing animals for food offensive. Should colleges ban animal products so as to not offend some people? Afterall, nowadays it costs relatively little in time and money to go meatless. But that isn't going because we really like meat and we think those vegans are silly. It's amazing how little we'll bend when we actually care about the subject.
This is a kind of a dumb analogy. I would say that schools should definitely offer meatless options in their dining halls, but I honestly don't know of anyone who is so "offended" by the killing of animals for food that they refuse to even eat in the same establishments that offer dishes with meat. Though there are certainly vegan only restaurants, I would imagine that most of their patrons have in the past and will in the future eat at restaurants that also serve meat.

But no one is asking universities to ban athletics because certain schools have racially offensive mascots. People that advocate for getting rid racist mascots aren't asking for "my way or the highway". They're asking that schools find a mutually agreeable and feasible compromise. At Illinois, it was getting ridding of the Chief as a mascot/symbol.
Why would this person attend the University of Illinois then?
Presumably she didn't think the culture of "the Chief" would be as pervasive as she found it. Personally, I didn't find it very pervasive at all, especially if you didn't go to football or basketball games, which is why I think she was being a little over-dramatic. But of course, I probably wasn't as sensitive to that aspect as someone of Native American culture would be.
   186. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4368927)

Sorry to disappoint you, but changing the name of the Washington Redskins isn't going to change that history one iota. What's done is done


"The past isn't dead. It isn't even past."
   187. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:28 PM (#4368928)
As always Ray looks into the soul of the Liberal. Quite the seer our Ray. It is spooky how well he can so completely and accurately capture the essense of an argument, and then throw it away to post some random thought that bubbled up from some fever swamp somewhere.


Liberals pretend to be clueless about who they are. Story at 11.
   188. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4368929)
Why would this person attend the University of Illinois then?

The University of Illinois is all over the place when it comes to symbols and names. They maintain the nickname "Fighting Illini", and their licensing board approves certain images but not others. For example, this one is allowed, but not this one.

Of course once you get outside the realm of ethnic images, the reasoning becomes even more bizarre. Here are two images that have been repeatedly turned down for commercial reproduction by one of the two schools depicted on the cover, and I'll bet not a single person here can tell me which school turned us down, and the reason that was given to us, at least not on the first try.

1946 Yale vs Princeton (scroll down for the image)

1947 Cotton Bowl Penn State vs Texas
   189. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4368930)
I would say that schools should definitely offer meatless options in their dining halls, but I honestly don't know of anyone who is so "offended" by the killing of animals for food that they refuse to even eat in the same establishments that offer dishes with meat.

So that is the level we much reach? How about your example of a student who was simply "uncomfortable" with the Chief? Your conflating veganism with people who don't want animals killed for human benefit. While they aren't mutually exclusive they are still seperate issues.

But of course, I probably wasn't as sensitive to that aspect as someone of Native American culture would be.


Which you can probably say the same thing about your view on meat offenders.

They're asking that schools find a mutually agreeable and feasible compromise. At Illinois, it was getting ridding of the Chief as a mascot/symbol.

That was the compromise? Geez, what were they asking for originally to have that be the compromise? Hand over the entire school to a local Indian reservation?

   190. Shredder Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:30 PM (#4368932)
Well, in the time it took to post that, it would appear that McCoy has made it clear he's not interested in debate and is just trolling now.
That was the compromise? Geez, what were they asking for originally to have that be the compromise? Hand over the entire school to a local Indian reservation?
You're free to research it yourself. It's no use discussing this with you anymore.
   191. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4368935)
Smoking and cruelty to animals.
   192. McCoy Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4368936)
Well, in the time it took to post that, it would appear that McCoy has made it clear he's not interested in debate and is just trolling now.

What is this then?

I'm trolling because you confused veganism with animal cruelty? And again, how was getting what you wanted while the other side gave up what they wanted to keep a compromise?

You're free to research it yourself. It's no use discussing this with you anymore.

Yes. Because clearly someone as respected and as world renowned as Shredder declaring it a compromise means we should all take his word for it and ask no more further questions.
   193. phredbird Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4368951)
i don't root for washington or atlanta, and part of my distaste for those teams is the unrecondite, overly defensive attitude of the fans who have no real reason to oppose a name change. it's a simple thing to do and won't cause the universe to collapse or time to run backwards.

Yeah, somehow this has become a winning argument.


maybe its because its a good argument. in the case of a name change, it really isn't going to do anybody any harm. i find that pretty convincing as a recommendation.

and i meant to say about the braves and redskins i'm not that crazy about the PART of the fan base that gets overly defensive about this. i bet most people don't really have any problem with a name change. they used to happen all the time, btw. the yanks were the hilltoppers, the dodgers were the robins, superbas, whatever. i'm really not that emotionally invested in it, but i do think that if the braves, indians and redskins changed their names they'd be doing a good thing. i think that's plain as day.
   194. phredbird Posted: February 13, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4368953)
I'm a 40 year old white male. The idea that I'm mistreated in some way by the media or society as a whole is laughable.


QFT
   195. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 13, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4368976)
The University of Illinois is all over the place when it comes to symbols and names. They maintain the nickname "Fighting Illini", and their licensing board approves certain images but not others. For example, this one is allowed, but not this one.

Not to mention that the name of the state itself is Algonquin for "tribe of superior men." In what should be a surprise to no one, naming sports teams after Native Americana springs from precisely the same impulse that caused us to name hundreds of states, rivers, landmarks, and the like in the same way.

Should the state of Illinois change its name, too? How about Massachusetts or Kansas? And what should we call the Mississippi (*) River? So Whitey basically named land he took from the Indians after the Indians. That's far more indicative and resonant of condescending cultural imperialism than "Washington Redskins" or "Atlanta Braves" -- neither of which were taken from the Indians.

All of which is to further cement the notion that this issue reduces to a small faction of guilty whites solipsistically trying to implement some entirely empty gestures in a way that will change nothing and solve nothing, but will make them feel better.

(*) Derived from an Indian name meaning "Father of Waters."
   196. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4368979)
That was the compromise? Geez, what were they asking for originally to have that be the compromise? Hand over the entire school to a local Indian reservation?


Big Chief come from reservation. Say him want many buffalo, heap big wampum, many beads for squaw.
   197. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4368989)
brie-eating chardonnay-sucking cali sissies


What a pity that this is too long, really, to be a team name.
   198. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 13, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4368999)
Should the state of Illinois change its name, too?


I would assume they'd be a big fight between Illinois, Indiana, Nebraska and Kansas over who got the rights to "The University of Flat Boring Flyover Land."
   199. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 13, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4369010)
brie-eating chardonnay-sucking cali sissies


Or, the version used on Fraiser:

sherry-swelling, opera-loving, Armani-wearing elitist

The full exchange, since I know everyone is interested. Frasier is afraid to be honest with a colleague because she's black:

----------------------

Niles: For heaven's sake, Frasier, why don't you just talk to her?
Frasier: Well, it's a delicate situation, Niles. For God's sake, it's
not all that easy. I mean, she is new to the field, she's
sensitive, she's eager to please...
Martin: She's black!
Frasier: Dad, please!
Martin: Well, you know damn well that's what this whole thing's
about. I don't know what the big deal is, if she's talking
too much, just tell her to shut her big bazoo.
Frasier: Oh, really? How do you suggest I accomplish that without
sounding like a complete bigot?
Niles: Well, perhaps a little diplomacy is in order.
Frasier: Oh, are you saying I should just choose my words more
carefully, is that it?
Niles: Yep, exactly.
Frasier: [hot under the collar] Fine, fine, all right, Niles. Just
exactly how would that go?! Why don't you play me and I'll
be Mary.
Niles: All right. [calm] Er, Mary.
Frasier: [quick] Frasier!
Niles: I've been meaning to speak to you. You know, people listen
to the show for my expertise.
Frasier: Oh, so my opinion's not worth anything?
Niles: Well, I'm the one with the medical degree. Now I want you to
contribute, but only up to a point.
Frasier: So, you want me to stay in my place... Massa!
Niles: She's not going to say "Massa"...
Frasier: [throwing in stereotypical African-American woman speech and
gestures, including the neck rolling] What, am I getting too
uppity for you? You sherry-swelling, opera-loving, Armani-
wearing elitist! You have no idea how difficult it is for a
black woman in a white man's world!
Niles: Frasier...
Frasier: I don't think so! [breaking up] Look at me! This is
ridiculous. I have walked myself straight into a mine field!
Niles: Listen, Frasier. I know you're trying to be sensitive, but
you're not showing this woman any respect if you're not as
honest with her as you would be with someone else.
Martin: Right, this is your show. When she gets her own show she can
say whatever she wants.
Frasier: [realises] Wait a minute! You know what, dad, you may be
onto something there. Gosh, I don't know why I didn't think
of that myself. You know what, I'm just going to call Kenny
and tell him to give her her own show. They're looking for
a replacement for "Let's Go Camping With Dan & Jenny."
Martin: What happened to them?
Frasier: They don't know.



   200. base ball chick Posted: February 13, 2013 at 05:20 PM (#4369041)
188

ok andy, i looked and looked and looked and have not the FAINTEST idea bout the cotton bowl one - the first one - maybe because it's about Dogs fornicating with cats? or something???
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