Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Sunday, June 08, 2014

Perry: Manny Machado appears to throw bat at A’s, needs to grow up

Let’s just say that Orioles third baseman Manny Machado hasn’t covered himself in glory this weekend. What happened Sunday traces back at least to Friday night, when Machado—for reasons sufficient unto himself—took robust exception to what looked like a fairly routine tag from Athletics third baseman Josh Donaldson. In the interim, both Donaldson and Machado have been buzzed a couple of times (which, let it be said, is also stupid given how silly the initial casus belli was).

So during Sunday’s game (OAK 11, BAL 1) Machado did this moments after being pitched far inside—albeit below the waist—by Fernando Abad ...

That was almost certainly intentional, and, as such, it’s pretty damnable. The Orioles broadcasters surmised that Machado was trying to helicopter his bat toward the mound, based on his lingering glare. Yet he missed. He could’ve hit an umpire or Alberto Callaspo at third, whirled the bat into the dugout or even into the stands. You can’t do that. You can’t do that because it’s stupid and dangerous. It would seem that this needs to be explained to Mr. Machado.

Thanks to Butch.

Repoz Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:00 PM | 197 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: oakland, orioles

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 
   1. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:27 PM (#4721472)
50-Game suspension for taking lessons from Delmon Young? Machado was CLEARLY trying to hurt someone today.....
   2. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:29 PM (#4721473)
50 games sounds right to me.

I expect he'll get about 10.
   3. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:30 PM (#4721474)
That is "clearly" throwing the bat on purpose? Wow. I thought Braves/Brewer fans had the biggest persecution complex in baseball.
   4. dr. scott Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:30 PM (#4721475)
So I thought he was trying to throw the bat at Donaldson, forgetting that he was DH today, as no Oriole got close to third base today at that point.
   5. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4721478)
cfb - Look at the replay, he "swings" AFTER the pitch was already by him. No persecution complex, and obviously the umps felt it was intentional as well. Even the broadcast on the MLB.tv replay, who are NOT the A's broadcasters, feel the same.

ETA - Also, in looking at past instances of batters losing the bat on a swing, you'll notice each one of them is surprised and watches where the bat goes.....not so much with Machado on that play....it's awfully hard to believe it was an honest accident.
   6. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:36 PM (#4721480)
Yeah I think that's clearly intentional. Wonder how many games he'll get.
   7. Xander Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:39 PM (#4721483)
He also suspiciously hit Derek Norris with his backswing twice today. Norris left the game after the second time. Neither time did Machado apologize and after Norris left the game he Machado cracked a wry smile.
   8. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:39 PM (#4721484)
cfb - Look at the replay, he "swings" AFTER the pitch was already by him. No persecution complex, and obviously the umps felt it was intentional as well. Even the broadcast on the MLB.tv replay, who are NOT the A's broadcasters, feel the same


More I see it, yes more I see the intention in both the pitch to try and hit him and the thrown bat in defense at another attempt to bean him in this series.
   9. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:41 PM (#4721485)
Really? That's defensible to you? OK....what have you to say about Donaldson being HBP after merely tagging a guy out on his way to 3B?

You can't posssibly be serious.....
   10. Dale Sams Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:42 PM (#4721486)
Let's be honest. A helicoptering bat thrown in some half assed attempt to look like a swing is about a kabillion times less likely to hurt someone than a 92 MPH fastball on the wrist, elbow, ribs or head.

Not that I'm condoning Machado's actions at all. 10 games.
   11. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:43 PM (#4721487)
Really? That's defensible to you? OK....what have you to say about Donaldson being HBP in after merely tagging a guy out on his way to 3B?


Nope, not defensible. Tone must have been wrong. He threw the bat in defense of another attempt to be beaned again. It's not a defensible action in the slightest, but at least acknowledge that the pitch was another bean ball in this particular battle. To pretend it's just an inside pitch, is as silly as me pretending that him throwing the bat was an accident.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:45 PM (#4721488)
Let's be honest. A helicoptering bat thrown in some half assed attempt to look like a swing is about a kabillion times less likely to hurt someone than a 92 MPH fastball on the wrist, elbow, ribs or head.

Not that I'm condoning Machado's actions at all. 10 games.


Concur. He should get no more and no less of a suspension than a pitcher who beans someone intentionally. What's the going rate for that?
   13. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:46 PM (#4721489)
I never even made any comment about the attempt at a HBP. Not once. You brought that up. I think Abad should've been tossed too. I also think Chen should've been tossed on Friday. So, I don't know where you think I was defending the pitch as accidental, but, ok.

Again, what about the HBP on Friday? I call bullshit.
   14. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:47 PM (#4721490)
Concur. He should get no more and no less of a suspension than a pitcher who beans someone intentionally. What's the going rate for that?


Six/Seven games...only because it makes them miss one start. A reliever usually gets a little less than that. I imagine an everyday player should get about 3.
   15. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:47 PM (#4721492)
The 50-games thing was a joke, because of Delmon Young. I don't even think he should really get 50.
   16. dr. scott Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:47 PM (#4721493)
both Abad and Machado were thrown out which was the correct decision. Not sure about the suspension... two balls thrown at Machado should be nearly as bad as one bat fling wildly towards none really.... bat flings are far more rare and unacceptable though, so it would not surprise me if only Machado get suspended. Its rare for a pitcher to get suspended for not hitting anyone.

Edit... the fact that the bat ended up nearly hitting the umpire though may cause Machado to go down though...
   17. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:52 PM (#4721495)
To pretend it's just an inside pitch, is as silly as me pretending that him throwing the bat was an accident.


Agreed. And since nobody here is defending the pitches, that just leaves the latter part of the sentence.....
   18. Dale Sams Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:52 PM (#4721496)
Isn't this the kind of thing a commissioner or..whatever Torre is..for? Publicly, Torre should come right out and say this #### is going to stop, and he should say the same thing before the Rays and Sox play again too.

I really hate playing anything close to 'think of the children', but a public ### for tatfest like the A's/ Orioles-Sox/Rays thing is not really something you want people to think of as acceptable.

####, I'd tell Ortiz and Price to publicly apologize to each other and donate to a charity or face a suspension, and if the PA wants to look stupid defending what they (and the A's and Orioles) do...let them.
   19. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:53 PM (#4721497)
both Abad and Machado were thrown out which was the correct decision. Not sure about the suspension... two balls thrown at Machado should be nearly as bad as one bat fling wildly towards none really.... bat flings are far more rare and unacceptable though, so it would not surprise me if only Machado get suspended. Its rare for a pitcher to get suspended for not hitting anyone.


The problem is the precedent that will be set if the suspension is too short. Logically speaking it should be roughly a 3 game suspension in line with what a starting pitcher gets for the same crime. But realistically speaking as a deterrent from future crimes you have to give him a 7+ game suspension. It wouldn't be a fair suspension based upon the past, but it would be notice to everyone that you can't do what Machado did.
   20. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4721500)
machado merits a suspension

and cfb, persecution complex regarding brewer fans? you show me a single example on this board and i will listen
   21. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 08, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4721501)
machado merits a suspension

and cfb, persecution complex regarding brewer fans? you show me a single example on this board and i will listen
   22. Dale Sams Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4721503)
The whole "Intent to hurt" is asinine anyway.

"I'm mad at you so I'm going to break a rib" That's ****ing stupid. You want to let tem know you're mad? Throw at their feet. Make em dance. Throw inside and move them back. Hit them with a curveball. Don't break someone's damn wrist. And if you're so mad that you're going to throw a ball as fast as you can at someone's face, you need to seek help.
   23. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4721504)
The fact that this weak bat-toss is so obviously intentional is kind of funny/sad in its hangdog passive aggression. I love how the 3rd baseman (not Donaldson, looks like it's Callaspo) just sort of throws his arms up in disbelief. Machado should be suspended for knocking Norris out of the game, not for this. Agree that Abad should have been thrown out for throwing at him.

Machado seems like a punk; has he always been this way? His idol is apparently A-Rod.
   24. Howie Menckel Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:12 PM (#4721508)

I thought the Donaldson tag was a little odd, no? not douchey and didn't merit the Machado response, but it was - clumsy? I'm not shocked that someone wasn't thrilled with it, though Machado made too much of a deal out of it obviously.

The Machado bat toss today was Clemens-esque, lol. Was that Melvin leading the charge of the A's brigade out of the dugout? I get it, but not sure that's the perfect comportment, either.

and yeah, Machado still seems like a punk.
   25. DKDC Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:12 PM (#4721509)
I'm not sure what is going on with Machado this last few days. He has always seemed to me to be a happy, friendly, normal likable guy, and now he is acting like a total prima donna and dragging his team into fights for no reason. I'm not sure if he's just a 21 year old having a really bad week, or if he's showing his true colors now that he's facing some adversity for the first time in his career.

I would support a long suspension for this. 25 games? But I've always supported long suspensions for beanballs too, and they always get a slap on the wrist.

I hope Machado gets a long break, but only if it's the start of stricter punishments across the board for players who instigate these dangerous and embarrassing sideshows.

As if giving away Fridays game and Ubaldo Jinenez's start today wasn't embarrassing enough...
   26. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4721510)
Howie - FWIW, it was Jaso leading the charge.
   27. DKDC Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:23 PM (#4721512)
Like most Orioles fans, I turned this game off long before any of this stuff happened, so I'm just watching the replays now, but how does someone hit a catcher on the backswing intentionally?

Just goes to show how quickly Machado has ruined his reputation, he can't even spit out sunflower seeds shells without worrying about who might be in that direction and will take offense.
   28. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:24 PM (#4721513)
Donaldson's tag was not clumsy. You have to make sure you tag the guy.
   29. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:30 PM (#4721517)
This is all on Buck Showalter, the self-proclaimed defender of the right way to play the game. When Machado flipped out for NOTHING on Friday night he should have pulled him from the game and told him to grow up. Instead he has his pitcher throw at the A's BEST player for NOTHING. And they hit him on the forearm. What if they had broken his wrist or hand for the crime of TAGGING SOMEONE OUT. Instead, Mr. Baseball Showalter enables Machado's crybaby antics and this is what you get. Look, I have nothing against the Orioles, in fact I'm fairly fond of them as a non-Yankee/Red Sox faction of the AL East, but while Showalter manages that team I hope they sink to the bottom of the standings and stick there.
   30. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:33 PM (#4721518)
ETA - Also, in looking at past instances of batters losing the bat on a swing, you'll notice each one of them is surprised and watches where the bat goes.....not so much with Machado on that play....it's awfully hard to believe it was an honest accident.


This. It'd be a ##### move in any respect, but Machado didn't give potential defenders anything to work with by looking so nonchalant after the bat went flying out of his hands. And while I think a fastball intentionally thrown at a batter is one of those tired old school things that needs to go away, Machado's antics could have potentially put a spectator at risk. Abad was likely his intended target and his missed pretty badly by almost taking out the third baseman and umpire. A bit more off the mark and that baby is in the stands.
   31. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4721519)
Showalter enables Machado's crybaby antics and this is what you get. Look, I have nothing against the Orioles, in fact I'm fairly fond of them as a non-Yankee/Red Sox faction of the AL East, but while Showalter manages that team I hope they sink to the bottom of the standings and stick there.


Blasphemy. It is baseball treason to wish for anyone other than the Yankees to finish last.
   32. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4721520)
Blasphemy. It is baseball treason to wish for anyone other than the Yankees to finish last.

#### that. I've never been so pissed off about a baseball game before. He hit Norris in the head on purpose with a ####### bat and then smirked about it. I am usually anti-beanball but in this case I wish Abad had just walked up to home plate and punched him in his douchey smirky face. #### Showalter. #### Machado. And #### the Orioles while those two are associated with the team.
   33. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4721521)
how does someone hit a catcher on the backswing intentionally?


Uh...by hitting the catcher on the backswing intentionally?
   34. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:39 PM (#4721522)
I'm not sure what is going on with Machado this last few days. He has always seemed to me to be a happy, friendly, normal likable guy, and now he is acting like a total prima donna and dragging his team into fights for no reason. I'm not sure if he's just a 21 year old having a really bad week, or if he's showing his true colors now that he's facing some adversity for the first time in his career.


That was my reaction too. He's generally my favorite players in the game but this was unacceptable. I still don't get what he was so upset about the other night. Donaldson tagged him the way you're taught to. Don't be gentle and let the ump think you missed the tag.

Even acknowledging that the beanball is as or close to as dangerous it is for better or worse an accepted part of the game. Ten games was my initial reaction and I'll stay with that. I suspect that it will be between 5-10 games.

And man I would love to have seen the hysteria if Puig had done this.
   35. Danny Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:41 PM (#4721523)
This is all on Buck Showalter, the self-proclaimed defender of the right way to play the game.

If you ask Buck, this was all the fault of Bob Melvin lacking guts and making an irresponsible decision that put Machado's career in danger. Also, this was a good experience for Machado, who handled it better than Donaldson.
"I think that probably had something to do with two days ago," he said. "Off-balance, after the tag put him in harm's way with the knee. I don't know if they took any exception to Manny accidentally tipping their catcher's (helmet). I don't know. You've got to ask them. I just know that it's real easy to get caught in the emotion of something as a manager to make a decision that takes a lot more guts sometimes to say no instead of being there responsible for something that someone loses their career over. I've tried with the years, think a little bit before you shoot from the hip.

"I thought Manny responded very well in that game and had some very good at-bats in this series compared to some other people who might have been involved in altercations. I thought Manny handled it better than someone with some experience did. It was also a good experience for him to have. He cares. It's a learning experience for all of us."
   36. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:43 PM (#4721524)
And man I would love to have seen the hysteria if Puig had done this.


Or the lack of hysteria if it was Jeter. Or even people defending it, saying it's part of the game and how batters have to take actions into their own hand when beanball wars start.
   37. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:44 PM (#4721526)
Lost in all this is the fact that the A's scored 11 runs with a lineup employing three catchers. This team is amazing.
   38. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:45 PM (#4721527)
Buck Showalter is an epic asshole. Fuck that fucking turd.
   39. DKDC Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:51 PM (#4721530)
Of course Buck knows that Machado has acted like a big baby, but he's getting paid to manage the Orioles. Every manager sides with his boys in these silly pissing matches, even when they are in the wrong. That's part of the job.

What he says privately to Machado is what really matters, but of course we have no idea if he's doing the right things there.

Getting pissed off at Buck because he's doing his job is almost as bizarre as thinking Manny was intentionally trying to hit the A's catcher in the head with his backswing.
   40. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:55 PM (#4721532)
Getting pissed off at Buck because hes doing his job is almost as bizarre as thinking Manny was intentionally trying to hit the As catcher with his backswing.

You are ####### wrong. You can got a dozen games, longer even, without seeing a catcher get hit on a backswing. You certainly don't see it twice in an at bat. And you don't see MLB players laugh about it when they do it hard enough to knock a catcher out of the game. You are in some serious denial.
   41. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: June 08, 2014 at 07:57 PM (#4721534)
Getting pissed off at Buck because hes doing his job is almost as bizarre as thinking Manny was intentionally trying to hit the As catcher with his backswing.

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that the backswings were intentional. This happens quite rarely, but twice today. And the smirking about it, and not apologizing like every other hitter who hits the catcher like that does.

I can live with Buck not killing him in the press, but to take jabs at Melvin after Chen headhunted Donaldson twice on Friday is beyond the pale.
   42. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:01 PM (#4721537)
I can't wait for the O's trip to Oakland. Can't wait.
   43. Xander Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:07 PM (#4721538)
There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that the backswings were intentional. This happens quite rarely, but twice today. And the smirking about it, and not apologizing like every other hitter who hits the catcher like that does.
Machado retroactively lost the benefit of the doubt with the backswings after he intentionally threw the bat.
   44. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:14 PM (#4721544)
Video of the second backswing that hit Norris.

And for those who hadn't seen it (like me), video of the tag that infuriated Machado and Chen's head-hunting on Donaldson. From just these videos, the Orioles look pretty terrible here. Hard to tell whether the back-swing was intentional, but in context it definitely might have been.
   45. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:22 PM (#4721550)
I can't wait for the O's trip to Oakland. Can't wait.

And the A's will be commemorating the '89 team that weekend. The old school blood will be pumping through the veins.
   46. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:24 PM (#4721551)
For a second I entertained the idea of making sure to have tickets near third base. Then I realized those would put me about a quarter-mile away.
   47. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:28 PM (#4721554)
And for those who hadn't seen it (like me), video of the tag that infuriated Machado


That is what infuriated him? Seriously? Kid has a problem.

Chen's head-hunting on Donaldson.


That is some weak ass headhunting if people believe it was intentional, then more power to them, but it was some weak ass effort if so. (not saying it wasn't intentionally inside, but there is a difference between coming inside to send a message and headhunting)
   48. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:29 PM (#4721555)
Ticket sales from Hayward have probably skyrocketed for that series.
   49. Xander Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:34 PM (#4721558)
That is some weak ass headhunting if people believe it was intentional, then more power to them, but it was some weak ass effort if so.
Donaldson has been hit in about 1% of his PA's in his career. Chen has hit three batters over the last two seasons. In the plate appearance following an incident Donaldson had with an Oriole player, Chen throws up and in with one pitch and hits him with the next. It was pretty obvious that Chen was throwing at him.
   50. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:38 PM (#4721560)
It is so frustrating that the A's have to be mixed up in this bullshit when they did nothing wrong. Donaldson did nothing wrong. He get plunked anyway and the A's don't retaliate and Machado still has to escalate it. Grr. Have I mentioned that Showalter and go #### himself?
   51. Baldrick Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:49 PM (#4721564)
What a ridiculous little baby. I hope he grows up. A lot. Because he's been a fun player to watch. But there's no way in hell I'm going to root for him if he's acting like this.

And seconded on Shooty's comments re: Showalter. WTF is going on with the Orioles?
   52. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:50 PM (#4721566)
Donaldson has been hit in about 1% of his PA's in his career. Chen has hit three batters over the last two seasons. In the plate appearance following an incident Donaldson had with an Oriole player, Chen throws up and in with one pitch and hits him with the next. It was pretty obvious that Chen was throwing at him.


It's pretty obvious he was pitching inside, there is a massive difference between that and headhunting or hitting intentionally. That is my problem, people act like backing a guy off the plate is equivalent to headhunting, those are completely different things. Bob Gibson would back people off the plate all the time, he wasn't a headhunter, Drysdale or Pedro were headhunters, in that their preferred methods of sending a message was to bean the guy. Just for the record. Which of those three pitchers has the reputation as the fierce competitor that you don't want to screw with? (if you say anything other than Gibson, you haven't been paying attention to baseball history)

I'm not saying that Chen didn't come inside on purpose, I just don't think this is the risky type of pitching that people generally associate with "headhunting".
   53. Dale Sams Posted: June 08, 2014 at 08:57 PM (#4721573)
Blasphemy. It is baseball treason to wish for anyone other than the Yankees to finish last.

#### that.


Agreed. The Yankees haven't done anything to piss me off in forever. It usually takes their fans to even get me to raise an eyebrow. "Greatest rivalry in sports"? More like England and France. I think they'd be the most likely team for the Sox to trade with these days in the AL East.
   54. dave h Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:04 PM (#4721576)
I'm not saying that Chen didn't come inside on purpose, I just don't think this is the risky type of pitching that people generally associate with "headhunting".



Except that he did hit him. If you're going to send a message by pitching inside, fine, but when you actually hit someone you're responsible. He should have been tossed and he should be suspended. Machado should be gone for a while - as stupid as beaning someone is, it's not going to injure an umpire or spectator. It is also exacerbated by the backswings.
   55. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:14 PM (#4721580)
He should have been tossed and he should be suspended.


Agreed there. I'm mostly going after the usage of the word head hunting, more than I'm talking about penalties.

Machado should be gone for a while - as stupid as beaning someone is, it's not going to injure an umpire or spectator. It is also exacerbated by the backswings.


I haven't seen the backswings yet, but those sound massively worse crime than the bat throw. There is almost no chance that a bat thrown on the field, like he did has a chance of actually injuring someone, but the backswing arguably has a higher chance of a serious injury, than even a hit by pitch. So I'm fine with compounding those penalties into one penalty and going big.
   56. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:22 PM (#4721583)
It's pretty obvious he was pitching inside, there is a massive difference between that and headhunting or hitting intentionally.


You do some interesting dancing in this thread, CFB.....why? It seems fairly obvious to, oh, everyone, that the Orioles just kept making themselves look worse and worse as all of these events unfolded.

Firday: Donaldson made a normal tag on a kid that went apeshit for no good reason. Chen threw at Donaldson twice, finally hitting him the 2nd time.

Today: Machado, hit the catcher on his backswing TWICE, and clearly grinned on the one that knocked the catcher out of the game. Then, on two pitches thrown at him that NOBODY defended (BTW, is that headhunting or throwing inside?), threw his bat intentionally onto the field.

All that somehow got this response from you:

That is "clearly" throwing the bat on purpose? Wow. I thought Braves/Brewer fans had the biggest persecution complex in baseball.


That's just .....odd.

ETA - Just saw your #55. I'm going to guess your reaction was more to the post I made and the more you actually uncover facts about this situation, the more you are backing away from your original stance(s).....
   57. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:23 PM (#4721584)
I haven't seen the backswings yet, but those sound massively worse crime than the bat throw.


It's not like asking someone if they are ok or apologizing after hitting them on the head with a bat is some arcane unwritten rule. It's basic humanity. For Machado to never even turn towards Norris (who is currently sporting some kind of awesome rattail/mullet hybrid) and stand around smirking like an idiot is freaking sociopathic.
   58. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:24 PM (#4721585)
The Yankees haven't done anything to piss me off in forever. . . . I think they'd be the most likely team for the Sox to trade with these days in the AL East.

Alfonso Soriano may be available.
   59. Textbook Editor Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:31 PM (#4721586)
The fact that Machado shows absolutely zero concern for the C after the backswing (which apparently was the 2nd one of the AB that hit the C) tells me it was purposeful. Every time I've ever seen a guy hit the C with a backswing he's shown a great amount of concern for how the C is doing.

The reaction to the Donaldson tag was hysterical. Why wasn't he thrown out of the game for throwing his helmet--clearly in the direction of Donaldson? I've seen guys run out of games for a lot more half-hearted helmet tosses.
   60. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:39 PM (#4721588)
Two separate incidents of Machado using the bat as a weapon means that he should go down the river for a long time, for me.
   61. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:41 PM (#4721589)
Agreed there. I'm mostly going after the usage of the word head hunting, more than I'm talking about penalties.
If you agree that he was intentionally trying to hit him, then I don't know why you have a problem with the term head-hunting. Both pitches were shoulder-height or higher. If you're going to hit someone intentionally (which seems like a ridiculous over-reaction to Donaldson's tag) then you hit them below the waist.
   62. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 09:58 PM (#4721592)
If you agree that he was intentionally trying to hit him, then I don't know why you have a problem with the term head-hunting. Both pitches were shoulder-height or higher. If you're going to hit someone intentionally (which seems like a ridiculous over-reaction to Donaldson's tag) then you hit them below the waist.


I don't agree he was trying to hit him on purpose, I agree he was coming inside to send a message and if he got hit, then so be it. That is the difference between headhunting and message pitching. Headhunting is something criminals do. Message pitching is something team players do.

(as to whether he was right with the message pitch, it doesn't matter whether Donaldson did something wrong or not, the team perceived it as wrong)
   63. cardsfanboy Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:01 PM (#4721593)
Just saw your #55. I'm going to guess your reaction was more to the post I made and the more you actually uncover facts about this situation, the more you are backing away from your original stance(s).....


My reaction was to the post you made, in regards to the gif for this thread. I didn't have the information about the two catchers hits, so my viewpoint was that a simple thrown bat on a weak swing, on an obvious purpose pitch isn't "clearly trying to hurt someone."
   64. Xander Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:03 PM (#4721594)
(as to whether he was right with the message pitch, it doesn't matter whether Donaldson did something wrong or not, the team perceived it as wrong)
You're just talking nonsense, mate.
   65. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:04 PM (#4721595)
63 - Makes sense, thanks for the reply. Context makes all the difference, doesn't it? Goodluck with your "head-hunting" waltz there...
   66. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:18 PM (#4721597)
I agree he was coming inside to send a message and if he got hit, then so be it. That is the difference between headhunting and message pitching. Headhunting is something criminals do. Message pitching is something team players do.
If you're throwing a message pitch at a guy's head, you're head-hunting. Throw your message pitch lower if you don't want to be accused of head-hunting. Also, if you're not trying to hit the guy, why the f do you throw up and in again after you've already bent him back once?
   67. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:21 PM (#4721599)
Darkness: You've got it backwards. If you throw at a guys head twice, it's a purpose-pitch or sending a message. If you throw at a guy's legs twice, it's headhunting. It's SO obvious!
   68. Walt Davis Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:23 PM (#4721601)
I agree that the term "head-hunting" is over-used but I also think what Chen did was close enough that I won't give him the benefit of the doubt. Both pitches are about shoulder high with the one that hit him a bit behind him (which is where you throw when you really want to hit a guy).

A "professional" HBP hits the guy on the butt or thigh ... that's still not awesome, if it gets away it can catch the elbow. But it's clearly not thrown at the head. I'm kinda OK with Chen's first pitch -- unless they are real plate-divers, batters almost always get out of the way of that one. And that was sufficient to send the message. To put another one high and tight and even further inside is clearly out of line.

And seriously? I've tagged guys harder than that in rec league softball. And I love that Machado was more concerned with making sure he slammed his helmet to the ground than he was with maintaining his balance.

I mean I'm pretty lenient on guys acting like jerks in the heat of the moment and figuring it was just instinct or a bad day and he'll be back to being a normal human in 5 minutes. But that is about the most baby-ish thing I've ever seen on a baseball field. Machado looks a complete fool for getting upset and for his stupid temper taking precedence over maintaining his balance.

I liked the line about "now the bullpens come jogging in to get their exercise".

   69. Dale Sams Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:24 PM (#4721602)
Alfonso Soriano may be available.


Without even looking at his stats, I'd have to assume he's better than most of the Sox OFers.
   70. DKDC Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:28 PM (#4721604)
The fact that Machado shows absolutely zero concern for the C after the backswing (which apparently was the 2nd one of the AB that hit the C) tells me it was purposeful. Every time I've ever seen a guy hit the C with a backswing he's shown a great amount of concern for how the C is doing.


Another interpretation is that Manny was harboring a stupid grudge against the As, so he acted like an immature prick and purposely ignored Norris after he accidentally hit him with the loopy backswing he has always had.

Given that I've never heard of anyone intentionally hitting the catcher on a backswing at any level of baseball ever and I suspect it is very hard to do, I think that's a more convincing explanation.

Also, this "sociopathic grin/smirk" that keeps getting mentioned also makes me think people are seeing what they want to see. Machado's smile on the As broadcast happened 30 seconds after Norris was off the field, and was in response to a conversation he was having with Adam Jones (who was also on the field because he was on deck). So Adam Jones has to be pulled into the sociopath circle as well, if he was joking about bonking Norris intentionally.
   71. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:33 PM (#4721606)
Another interpretation is that Manny was harboring a stupid grudge against the As, so he acted like an immature prick and purposely ignored Norris after he accidentally hit him with the loopy backswing he has always had.


How is this a different interpretation?
   72. sardonic Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:44 PM (#4721615)
As an A's fan who watched the series, definitely feel like Machado acted petulantly and deserves some sort of suspension and more importantly some feedback and guidance from his veteran teammates and coaches. Not that it really matters what we do on the internet, but hopefully this can be an opportunity for a 21 year old kid to learn and grow.
   73. DKDC Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:48 PM (#4721616)
How is this a different interpretation?


Multiple posters (include the one I quoted) think Manny hit Norris intentionally. I don't.
   74. Bug Selig Posted: June 08, 2014 at 10:56 PM (#4721618)
As a Tiger fan, who doesn't have a dog in the fight, I'm not sure how the O's-defending still has any steam.

1. Donaldson did nothing. Machado wants to live in a world where the fielder should give up on a play WHILE he is actively trying to avoid the tag. 100% delusional red-ass. There is no other reasonable reaction than to wonder what the immature little prick has up his ass. None.
2. The only avenue to defend the follow-through nonsense to Norris is to try some variation of "Nobody is that big of an #######." Evidently, someone is. His comical attempt at acting like he doesn't even know contact was made is one of the most juvenile things I've ever seen. When your bat hits something, you know it. If it is an accident, you react, and basically without exception, you react with concern. More middle-school crap.
3. Buck has to support his guy to the press. No quarrel there, until he feels the need to suggest that after the O's took multiple shots at Donaldson - for nothing, mind you - it was somehow incumbent upon Melvin to take the high road. Because it is somehow in the best interest of the game to coddle Machado, or something.

The Orioles aren't good enough to hate, because there is an element of respect in hate. Something has to be worth hating, and they aren't - the Yankees are/were. Bonds was. But concluding that both Buck and Manny have some personal issues isn't much of a leap.
   75. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:17 PM (#4721622)
ETA - Also, in looking at past instances of batters losing the bat on a swing, you'll notice each one of them is surprised and watches where the bat goes.....not so much with Machado on that play....it's awfully hard to believe it was an honest accident.


I agree with this point, and thought it was intentional, but I have little sympathy for pitchers in this situation given that they intentionally throw small round objects 95 mph at hitters (such as what happened earlier in the AB). It's about time hitters threw the bat back at them. And hey, it should be just fine, just an unwritten situation of "letting players police themselves."
   76. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:20 PM (#4721623)
Machado seems like a punk; has he always been this way? His idol is apparently A-Rod.


? When has ARod ever behaved this way? Even after Dempster hit him for using steroids he never retaliated.
   77. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:21 PM (#4721624)
Donaldson's tag was not clumsy. You have to make sure you tag the guy.


Agreed, and Gary Thorne was calling it as if it were a routine tag before Machado got upset over it.
   78. Ray (RDP) Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:30 PM (#4721625)
Video of the second backswing that hit Norris.


One way to determine intent is to analyze whether Machado typically has these long follow throughs. I don't watch him enough to know.

And for those who hadn't seen it (like me), video of the tag that infuriated Machado and Chen's head-hunting on Donaldson. From just these videos, the Orioles look pretty terrible here.


Chen and all pitchers who do this should be suspended 50 games. I find it comical that the same people who get worked up about "workplace safety" in the steroids issue don't care that pitchers throw at hitters.

(Not sure what to make of Cardsfanboy's presentation in this thread. CFB, obviously Chen threw at him on purpose. Please with this.)
   79. theboyqueen Posted: June 08, 2014 at 11:41 PM (#4721631)
? When has ARod ever behaved this way? Even after Dempster hit him for using steroids he never retaliated.


No, his idol really IS ARod. Which is something I never knew about him. Maybe ARod needs to talk to him.
   80. theboyqueen Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:04 AM (#4721637)
I now realize that Abad got ejected after throwing a strike. How do the umpires spin that one?
   81. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:05 AM (#4721638)
Since I don't see enough of Machado to know how long his swing is normally, I went over to youtube and found a 2013 Manny Machado highlight file.

While I realize swings do change, I didn't see a single swing in the clip that showed anything as long as the two today that hit Norris. Mix that the lack of normal batter reaction when they do accidentally clip a catcher (which is at least a grimace by the batter in recognition of what he did) and I'm ready to call this idiot guilty.

Nothing less than 20 games should do. Ten for the bat toss and ten for hitting the catcher with a bat intentionally.
   82. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:13 AM (#4721639)
Buck Showalter is a loathsome, despicable little fuckweasel. Anyone who disagrees with that has no grasp of reality.
   83. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:15 AM (#4721640)
David Ortiz hits catchers on the follow through somewhat often. I have never seen him fail to immediately turn and apologize. I mean, he says something and I assume he's apologizing, for all I know he's saying "ha ha, got you good you piece of ####."
   84. jobu Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:19 AM (#4721642)
Machado needs to learn to throw his bat like a champion. Bert Campaneris knew how to get the job done.

   85. For the Turnstiles (andeux) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:21 AM (#4721643)
I am so sick of ######## like Machado, A-Rod and Albert Belle throwing their bats at the pitcher.
   86. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:55 AM (#4721650)
It's like Machado is the ####### that everybody thinks Bryce Harper is.
   87. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: June 09, 2014 at 12:58 AM (#4721652)
Or does this call for a "Manny being Manny" joke?
   88. DKDC Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:02 AM (#4721653)
While I realize swings do change, I didn't see a single swing in the clip that showed anything as long as the two today that hit Norris. Mix that the lack of normal batter reaction when they do accidentally clip a catcher (which is at least a grimace by the batter in recognition of what he did) and I'm ready to call this idiot guilty.


MLB's Multimedia Search is actually pretty good. Go there and type in Machado to search for more recent clips that are more relevant.

I'll pull a few that I think are relavent:

Here's one from two weeks ago. There's a very good replay of Machado's backswing, because it hits the catcher.

Here's a grand slam from a week ago where he again has a massive backswing.

Here's a home run from two days ago (but this was after the first incident with Donaldson, I think).

Here's Norris getting clipped by someone else on a backswing a few weeks ago.

I don't see a big difference between these and the backswing today, but I'm 100% certain others will disagree.

I will say that Manny doesn't have an exaggerated backswing every time, as he seems to have a contact swing and a power swing.
   89. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:09 AM (#4721654)
DKDC - Can you find any instance, ever, of a hitter hitting a catcher on a backswing in the head, either once or twice, and not even acknowledging it at all? I can understand how if it's not intentional, people still think of him as a dick. It's a dick move.

ETA - the in the head part...I'm talking about plays where the batter didn't get a hit, but remained in the box for the next pitch of the AB
   90. DKDC Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:12 AM (#4721655)
No, I don't recall ever seeing that before. I used the term "immature prick" up thread, but "dick move" works too.

All I'm saying is that I see very little evidence that Manny intentionally hit Norris and frankly I think the idea is pretty ridiculous on its face.

There's plenty of evidence that Manny acted like a dick all weekend.
   91. Poster Nutbag Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:14 AM (#4721657)
I can dig that. I'm still not sure it was intentional. I am sure it was classless
   92. Darkness and the howling fantods Posted: June 09, 2014 at 01:17 AM (#4721658)
All I'm saying is that I see very little evidence that Manny intentionally hit Norris.

There's plenty of evidence that he acted like a dick all weekend.
Yeah, the only reason to suspect it's intentional is that it happened twice in one at bat in a context where he was losing his ####. But I think your scenario is at least as plausible.
   93. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: June 09, 2014 at 02:55 AM (#4721664)
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can't see how anyone objective can come away with any other assessment that Machado is a huge p*$$y and a giant @$$hat. Both pitchers were just being good teammates, but both should probably get a small fine and/or suspension for intentionally throwing at a batter. But Donaldson did absolutely nothing wrong with the tag--this entire thing is 100% on Machado and hopefully he'll receive a fine and suspension worthy of his idiocy.
   94. if nature called, ladodger34 would listen Posted: June 09, 2014 at 03:46 AM (#4721667)
I'm going to go all fanboi right here, but I wonder how Mike Ferrin over at MLBN Radio will cover it tomorrow. That man lost his GD mind when Puig showed up late on opening day. I actually tweeted him and said "hey, the guy showed up late and you're acting like he pulled his junk out in right field" (I usually don't tweet folks, but I was waiting for my oldest to get out of kindergarten) and he didn't take too kindly to my comments.

I realize that I am about the most unbiased observer possible in this situation (I love me some Puig), but I will take an immature idiot that overthrows his cutoff man and flips his bat when he thinks he got all of the ball over a guy who throws his damned bat*.

* even while granting that it was chickenshit for the A's to throw at his knees.
   95. Curse of the Andino Posted: June 09, 2014 at 04:09 AM (#4721668)
Reserving judgement (O's fan, obviously), but Machado seemed like the heir to most-beloved-in-Baltimore, the way Cal or Brooks was. I'm not happy with him today, and it has that Roberto Alomar spitting-on-the-ump feel, though with a lot more risk of injury to others.

Will let others hash out Machado's backswing. That, to me, is far worse than his flying bat.

A's beat us fair and square in our house after a tough road trip (which may be part of the 21-year-old's frustrations). They are the class (and I do mean class) of the American League.
   96. chisoxcollector Posted: June 09, 2014 at 06:56 AM (#4721670)
David Ortiz hits catchers on the follow through somewhat often. I have never seen him fail to immediately turn and apologize. I mean, he says something and I assume he's apologizing, for all I know he's saying "ha ha, got you good you piece of ####."


I laughed.

Oh, and let me chime in as an impartial observer. Machado is a maniac and deserves a lengthy suspension. All of the hyperbolic things were ridiculously said about Carlos Quentin when he charged Greinke would actually be accurate here.
   97. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 09, 2014 at 07:22 AM (#4721671)
Just saw the video of the backswing. I don't think it's clearly intentional but DKDC calling it a dick move is 100% right. That's just basic decency to make sure the guy is ok.

I really like Machado but this puts a sour taste in my mouth and I haven't even brushed my teeth get this morning.
   98. Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio Posted: June 09, 2014 at 08:48 AM (#4721683)
His idol is apparently A-Rod.

Hopefully this behavior isn't the manifestation of the beginnings of 'roid rage.
   99. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 08:51 AM (#4721685)
I used to like Machado, but after all this bullshit, man, #### that guy.
   100. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: June 09, 2014 at 08:54 AM (#4721687)
He hit Norris on purpose, come on. Can ANYONE remember the same man hitting the catcher with his backswing--hard, I might add; it was no glancing blow--twice in the same game? Maybe all we have is circumstantial evidence, but it's one veritable mountain of circumstantial evidence.

I'm all for much more severe penalties for pitchers throwing at hitters--Chen should be gone for 25 or 30 games, that is, 5 or 6 starts--and I think there is hardly a punishment severe enough for attacking people with your bat, which Machado did more than once in the same game. It would not bother me a bit if he were invited to take the rest of 2014 off.

I think it's going to be about 10, though, because much more than that is probably going to invite a union grievance MLB won't want to bother about fighting.
Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
James Kannengieser
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: Politics, August 2014: DNC criticizes Christie’s economic record with baseball video
(4953 - 5:40pm, Aug 22)
Last: The Id of SugarBear Blanks

NewsblogDowney: Let Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame already
(57 - 5:35pm, Aug 22)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip

NewsblogA Look Inside Baseball's Ever-Evolving Stimulant Culture | Bleacher Report
(40 - 5:33pm, Aug 22)
Last: zenbitz

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 8-22-2014
(39 - 5:29pm, Aug 22)
Last: Batman

NewsblogPosnanski: The Royals might actually know what they are doing
(92 - 5:25pm, Aug 22)
Last: Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

NewsblogFG: Ben Revere and the Emptiest Batting Average Ever
(19 - 5:22pm, Aug 22)
Last: BDC

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread August, 2014
(512 - 5:21pm, Aug 22)
Last: PepTech

NewsblogPete Rose’s Reckless Gamble
(4 - 5:19pm, Aug 22)
Last: PepTech

NewsblogDRays Bay: Rays to Montreal? “Smart chronicler” says yes
(29 - 5:19pm, Aug 22)
Last: RMc's desperate, often sordid world

NewsblogMegdal: Humble shortstop Marty Marion should be in Hall contention
(65 - 5:09pm, Aug 22)
Last: Tubbs & Minnie Miñoso don't fear Sid Monge

NewsblogBrisbee: Rusney Castillo reminds us how screwed amateur players can be
(13 - 5:08pm, Aug 22)
Last: Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class

NewsblogCuban outfielder Rusney Castillo to sign with the Red Sox for $72 million
(53 - 4:58pm, Aug 22)
Last: Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class

NewsblogBoswell, WaPo: For streaking Washington Nationals, runs like this don’t come around very often
(14 - 4:48pm, Aug 22)
Last: Joey B.: posting for the kids of northeast Ohio

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - August 2014
(295 - 4:46pm, Aug 22)
Last: madvillain

NewsblogBA (Badler): Seven Reasons Why MLB’s New International Rules Are Backward
(5 - 4:43pm, Aug 22)
Last: DL from MN

Page rendered in 1.1217 seconds
52 querie(s) executed