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Sunday, December 30, 2012

Perry: Torii Hunter: Having gay teammate would be ‘difficult’

Kevin Baxter of the Los Angeles Times has written an insightful piece on the life of the gay athlete in professional sports. As part of his reporting, Baxter sought out comments from a number of straight athletes on the subject, and here’s how he summarized his conversation with veteran Tigers outfielder Torii Hunter:

  Like in the New England Patriots’ locker room. Earlier this season linebacker Brandon Spikes sent out a tweet claiming to be homophobic “just like I’m arachnophobic. I have nothing against homosexuals or spiders but I’d still scream if I found one in my bathtub.”

  Spikes later said he was joking. But former Angels outfielder Torii Hunter, among baseball’s most thoughtful and intelligent players, isn’t kidding when he says an “out” teammate could divide a team.

  “For me, as a Christian … I will be uncomfortable because in all my teachings and all my learning, biblically, it’s not right,” he says. “It will be difficult and uncomfortable.”

Hunter is of course entitled to his personal beliefs (although one wonders whether he is similarly affronted by, say, shellfish and neatly maintained beards, which are also forbidden by the holiness code of Leviticus), and when he talks about potential problems within the clubhouse, he may well be correct.

Thanks to Carlos.

Repoz Posted: December 30, 2012 at 06:19 PM | 335 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Transmission Posted: December 30, 2012 at 06:31 PM (#4334737)
As an atheist, I would find it difficult and uncomfortable to have Torii Hunter in a clubhouse.

Or, Torii and the rest of the faithful could just stop qualifying statements of personal belief with "As an X...." and own their prejudices, instead of excusing it as a built-in part of the faith.
   2. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 30, 2012 at 06:37 PM (#4334739)
Something I've passed along here before: A veteran player said, in an interview I read a few years ago, he had played with gays and with evangelicals - and the latter were, by far, more disruptive to clubhouse chemistry.
   3. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: December 30, 2012 at 06:42 PM (#4334743)
Even Slingblade knew that Vaughan wasn't being sent to Hades.
   4. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: December 30, 2012 at 06:49 PM (#4334750)
Like in the New England Patriots’ locker room. Earlier this season linebacker Brandon Spikes sent out a tweet claiming to be homophobic “just like I’m arachnophobic. I have nothing against homosexuals or spiders but I’d still scream if I found one in my bathtub.”


"Scream"?

I dunno, Spikes. That sounds pretty gay to me.

I also wonder at the source of 'homophobia' for a guy who tweets about imagining gay men in his bathtub.

Even Slingblade knew that Vaughan wasn't being sent to Hades.


Talk about a guy with a weird career ...
   5. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: December 30, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4334755)
Never mind
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:07 PM (#4334760)
Torii and the rest of the faithful could just stop qualifying statements of personal belief with "As an X...." and own their prejudices, instead of excusing it as a built-in part of the faith.


I've never been able to put my finger on it, but that comment right there sums it up for me. Christians all the time are able to overcome their beliefs to do actions that are unchristianlike(I doubt that there are many Christians in pro sports who didn't have premarital sex) Why is this particular issue so much more unchristiany than other things? Isn't core christian principles to love your fellow man? That we are all sinners? That God is the only one to judge?

I have no problem with people of faith, but to use that faith to perform actions that goes contrary to the fundamental principles of that faith, is somewhat problematic.
   7. Gonfalon B. Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:13 PM (#4334761)
Love thy fellow man. But be a sport and give a reacharound.
   8. vivaelpujols Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:14 PM (#4334762)
What a ####### moron. I could see it being difficult because of the amount of time spent in the locker rooms (I'm not exactly sure what goes on in a locker room, but if Major League is accurate, there is some nudity), but really anyone still clinging to the idea that being gay is "not right" on a moral level is just dumb.
   9. JJ1986 Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4334764)
'People see ballplayers out there, and the perception is that they're straight. They're not us. They're impostors. Even people I know come up and say: 'Hey, what orientation is Mike Piazza? Is he straight?' I say, 'Come on, he's gay.'
   10. Howie Menckel Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4334774)

"Hunter is of course entitled to his personal beliefs (although one wonders whether he is similarly affronted by, say, shellfish and neatly maintained beards, which are also forbidden by the holiness code of Leviticus),"

that add-in by the blogger is quite the invitation to a constructive conversation
#notreallyatall



   11. Walt Davis Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:36 PM (#4334778)
If I found a Christian in my bathtub I might scream ... since I don't currently have a bathtub. Where'd it come from? Did they bring it with them? Did they hook it up to the plumbing?
   12. Jittery McFrog Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:44 PM (#4334783)
If I found a Christian in my bathtub I might scream ... since I don't currently have a bathtub. Where'd it come from?

The toilet, transubstantiated.
   13. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: December 30, 2012 at 08:22 PM (#4334804)
But, Torii, how do you feel about playing with the 7-10 adulterers who are almost certainly in your clubhouse?
   14. AROM Posted: December 30, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4334806)
"I've never been able to put my finger on it, but that comment right there sums it up for me. Christians all the time are able to overcome their beliefs to do actions that are unchristianlike(I doubt that there are many Christians in pro sports who didn't have premarital sex) Why is this particular issue so much more unchristiany than other things? Isn't core christian principles to love your fellow man? That we are all sinners? That God is the only one to judge? "

Torii is 37 years old and has college age children.
   15. cardsfanboy Posted: December 30, 2012 at 08:33 PM (#4334811)
Torii is 37 years old and has college age children.


Ok?

I wasn't directing my comment towards Torii specifically, but to people who are Christians and seem to focus on one minor comment in their religion as it's the most important part of their religion, while accepting other actions by other people with no problem. As post 13 points out, what is the fundamental difference between adulterers and homosexuals as far as Christianity is concerned?

Was Torii pure when he got married? Is he married? Doesn't he have 4 kids by 4 different mothers? Not sure that he is the poster boy for Christian behavior, nor should he be pulling out Christian values when he talks.
   16. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: December 30, 2012 at 08:46 PM (#4334821)
that add-in by the blogger is quite the invitation to a constructive conversation
#notreallyatall

There can be no constructive conversation on the matter. One side is completely bigoted and wrong. Pretending there are valid arguments for their position to have constructive conversation about just enables them, and allows them to propagate that viewpoint. Shaming them repeatedly, so they realize that those views have no place in a modern society, and future generations grow up knowing it is wrong, is about as constructive as you can get.
   17. fra paolo Posted: December 30, 2012 at 08:49 PM (#4334825)
As post 13 points out, what is the fundamental difference between adulterers and homosexuals as far as Christianity is concerned?

Well, I won't pretend to be an acknowledged theologian, but I don't think there is any.

There is, however, a difference between someone sneaking around guiltily being gay in the hope of not being found out, and an adulterer proclaiming their adulterous lifestyle as something wholly acceptable as a 'lifestyle choice'. The latter is much more deserving of being shunned.

EDIT: I ought to point out the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' clause here. Shunning is probably not the way to handle it.
   18. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: December 30, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4334829)
I really hope Miguel Cabrera is gay.
   19. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: December 30, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4334832)
Is there any other sport in which patting a guy from the other team on the bottom for "doing something good" is accepted behavior, outside of baseball? I'd say the safer assumption is that nearly every MLB player has at least some homosexual tendencies, either natural or learned.
   20. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:04 PM (#4334837)
Torii's been a d-bag in a smiling press-friendly dumbass's clothing his whole career.
   21. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4334838)
I'd say the safer assumption is that nearly every MLB player has at least some homosexual tendencies, either natural or learned.

Hey, ballplayers work hard and they play hard.
   22. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:07 PM (#4334840)
Is there any other sport in which patting a guy from the other team on the bottom for "doing something good" is accepted behavior, outside of baseball? I'd say the safer assumption is that nearly every MLB player has at least some homosexual tendencies, either natural or learned.


It happens in football too.
   23. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:18 PM (#4334846)
Like in the New England Patriots’ locker room. Earlier this season linebacker Brandon Spikes sent out a tweet claiming to be homophobic “just like I’m arachnophobic. I have nothing against homosexuals or spiders but I’d still scream if I found one in my bathtub.”


There is nothing wrong with this. Who wouldn't be scared to find a stranger in their bathtub?
   24. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4334848)
Without actually hearing the comments, the tenor and the voice of the delivery, I will not condemn Hunter outside of saying, "yeah, it might be difficult, Torii. It's more difficult for a gay man to live a closeted lifestyle, so suck it up and love they ####### neighbor, Chist-man."
   25. Squash Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4334852)
that add-in by the blogger is quite the invitation to a constructive conversation

What's the difference really in the examples the author cites? There aren't many qualifications in Leviticus - you're either holy or you're not. The point is, we qualify constantly what is good or not and what is moral or not and we do it primarily based on what's good for us. Being anti-gay as a matter of morality is easy morality - it costs a straight person nothing to be anti-gay, whereas it costs the gay person everything. You the straight person don't have to change - you're righteous just as you are. It's all those other people who have to change to become righteous and moral just like you.
   26. still hunting for a halo-red october (in Delphi) Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4334865)
Well, between this and whining about Arte's "betrayal," Torii is making his departure from the Angels much more palatable for me...
   27. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:48 PM (#4334872)
I think in the next 5 years we're going to see an active professional athlete in one of the four North American leagues (MLB/NFL/NBA/NHL) announce himself as homosexual.
I also believe that as soon as one person does, it'll open up the flood gates and many more will in the next 5 years after that.

If I had to guess, it'll first be a hockey player, and it'll be on a Canadian team (probably the Maple Leafs).
I think the last league to have a gay player come out (or be "out" before being drafted) will be the NBA.
   28. Bhaakon Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:51 PM (#4334875)
"yeah, it might be difficult, Torii. It's more difficult for a gay man to live a closeted lifestyle, so suck it up and love they ####### neighbor, Chist-man."


Is this really true? I mean, sure, if you live in a place full of people who don't care, but if there are enough jackasses around...
   29. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 30, 2012 at 09:58 PM (#4334879)
hate the sin. love the sinner.

though i don't regard being homos8xual as being a sin.

scr8wing around on your wife, yes.

or your girlfriend. or your boyfriend if that's your thing

keep a promise already
   30. Gamingboy Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:04 PM (#4334882)
I think it's safe to say that, in general, the reception of the first openly gay male athlete in the Big 3 will depend heavily on how good he is. If it's a perennial All-Star, even the most prejudiced would be able to put aside their "difficulty" so long as the player is helping the team.

But if it was a bench player who was perpetually having to fight for a roster spot every spring? That's an entirely different story.
   31. Perro(s) Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:05 PM (#4334885)
Open homosexuality is an affront to Christian culture, if not theology. It's a pagan practice and its acceptance is one more nail in the traditional coffin. Hunter's not coming out of left field, here, but undoubtedly expressing common Christian sentiment. I've certainly heard it from many sources.
   32. JJ1986 Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:10 PM (#4334888)
If it's a perennial All-Star, even the most prejudiced would be able to put aside their "difficulty" so long as the player is helping the team.


I think if it were A-Rod or LeBron James or someone else equally despised then he might catch a lot more ####.
   33. The District Attorney Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:17 PM (#4334892)
Torii's been a d-bag in a smiling press-friendly dumbass's clothing his whole career.
I tend to agree.
   34. Swedish Chef Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4334904)
I think if it were A-Rod or LeBron James or someone else equally despised then he might catch a lot more ####.

Well, coming out would be one surefire way for A-Rod to get good publicity for once.
   35. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4334905)
I think the last league to have a gay player come out (or be "out" before being drafted) will be the NBA.

Was Jon Amaechi out when he was playing, or not until after?

(Or am I just imagining that he's even gay?....)
   36. Gamingboy Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4334907)

I think if it were A-Rod or LeBron James or someone else equally despised then he might catch a lot more ####.


Okay, that's true. But what if it was somebody like Mike Trout or Kevin Durant?

(Note: I am not saying that Mike Trout or Kevin Durant are gay. Not like I'd have a problem with that.)
   37. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:38 PM (#4334908)
Well, coming out would be one surefire way for A-Rod to get good publicity for once.


AROD, if you're reading this, and you're gay, STAY IN THE CLOSET. Not for your sake, but for the sake of all the other gay folks on the planet. Because we really don't need to give Ralph Reed and company the "centaur" angle, Chief.
   38. Comic Strip Person Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4334910)
I'm not a theologian either, but I am a pastor. Getting Christians to think clearly about sexuality (all sexuality) is really difficult work. And since most of what passes for "public theology" from Christians is a lousy representation of historic biblical teaching on sexuality, talking to non-Christians about sexuality is pretty difficult, too.
I think Torii should keep in mind that every person in his locker room does and says things that make God "uncomfortable", including Torii Hunter. And yet, God loves those people anyway, and points them toward a way of life that will result in peace and wholeness. If Torii focuses on following that example, everything will work out in God's timing.
And, I think Christians, including Torii Hunter, should get used to not being in the majority, and accept that this ultimately leads to greater discomfort than sharing a locker room with other millionaires who do things you find distasteful.
   39. Gamingboy Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:42 PM (#4334912)
On the inverse of the claim that the NBA will be the last league to have an out player, I'm going to guess that the NFL will be the first. Simply because the shorter careers, slightly larger amount of teams, and larger rosters mean there are far more candidates who'd have an opportunity to do so.
   40. Gonfalon B. Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:43 PM (#4334913)
And as I looked along the sand, I saw that sometimes there were two sets of footprints side by side, but at other times there was only one. And I realized that the single set of footprints coincided with some of the most painful and uncomfortable moments of my life. So I said, "Why did you abandon me during the times when I was laid low?" In a soft voice came the answer: "Those were the times I was banging the shit out of you. Sorry about the sand and grit, beach sex is way overrated."
   41. Joe Kehoskie Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:44 PM (#4334915)
I also believe that as soon as one person does, it'll open up the flood gates and many more will in the next 5 years after that.

I'm not sure about the "flood gates" part. It seems like someone would have been outed by now if there were more than a very small number of closeted gays in the Big Four sports.
   42. Der-K: Hipster doofus Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:46 PM (#4334916)
29 - exactly.
35 - amaechi was not out during his career. Probably best that he wasn't that trailblazer - unpopular dude who was regarded as soft.
38 - what sect/denomination?
   43. J.R. Wolf Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:47 PM (#4334917)
Tolerance includes tolerating the ALL of the political, religious and lifestyle views and viewpoints of others, not just those of atheists, agnosticists and Leftists. Being intolerant of Christians and conservatives is intolerance on a level that is every bit as bad as them being intolerant of homosexuals.

I'm a tolerant political moderate, and some of you people need to be constantly aware that when you are being intolerant of people who are intolerant of homosexuals you are - no kidding - being every bit as intolerant and self-righteous as they are.

People have the right to choose to be what they want and to hold whatever opinions they choose to hold, no matter whether they are Left, Right or centrist or if they are atheists, agnostics, or believers. And that specifically includes the right to be intolerant in ways that you don't approve of.

   44. Perro(s) Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:48 PM (#4334919)
#38 -- thanks. I'm more interested in hearing the practicing Christian perspective than bbtf heathens teaching theology.

   45. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:52 PM (#4334923)
There can be no constructive conversation on the matter. One side is completely bigoted and wrong.


"I know you are, but what am I?" :-)

This is such a counterproductive starting point for any dialogue. "You are a bigot. Nice to meet you."

Pretending there are valid arguments for their position to have constructive conversation about just enables them, and allows them to propagate that viewpoint. Shaming them repeatedly, so they realize that those views have no place in a modern society, and future generations grow up knowing it is wrong, is about as constructive as you can get.


I have gay friends that like I very much like and respect. I also believe, as a Catholic, that homosexual behavior is a sin against God. We're all sinners, and I certainly have my hands full with my own weaknesses. That's my top priority rather than judging other people. Christians would do well to remember that homosexuality is a sin rather than the sin of all sins. So, while I may be "completely bigoted and wrong" in your view, I am also sympathetic toward homosexuals for how they are scapegoated.

I would never treat a gay person differently than anyone else. We all deserve respect and dignity. Torii Hunter doesn't speak for all Christians, and I hope you'll also rethink the wisdom of "shaming" people.





   46. Eddo Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:53 PM (#4334925)
I'm a tolerant political moderate, and some of you people need to be constantly aware that when you are being intolerant of people who are intolerant of homosexuals you are - no kidding - being every bit as intolerant and self-righteous as they are.

Obligatory XKCD response.
   47. Eddo Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4334926)
That's my top priority rather than judging other people. Christians would do well to remember that homosexuality is a sin rather than the sin of all sins. So, while I may be "completely bigoted and wrong" in your view, I am also sympathetic toward homosexuals for how they are scapegoated.

This is a really good way to put it. Homosexuality is a sin in most (all?) Christian denominations. The right way to gain tolerance is not to fight that - Christian dogma and beliefs are unlikely to change.

It's to remind those who are intolerant that homosexuals are just like any other sinners - which includes everyone on the planet - and go from there.
   48. Perro(s) Posted: December 30, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4334934)
Takes a lot of time to push away the nonsense. Take my compassion, push it as far as it goes. My interest level's dropping, my interest level is dropping. I've heard all I want to, I don't want to hear any more.
   49. Answer Guy Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:08 PM (#4334939)
Like in the New England Patriots’ locker room. Earlier this season linebacker Brandon Spikes sent out a tweet claiming to be homophobic “just like I’m arachnophobic. I have nothing against homosexuals or spiders but I’d still scream if I found one in my bathtub.”


I promise not to sneak into Brandon Spikes' bathtub.
   50. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4334940)
Christians would do well to remember that homosexuality is a sin rather than the sin of all sins.


Well, technically *being gay* is not a sin. Acting on your homosexual desires is. At least that's more or less official dogma these days. It's not a sin to exist as a gay person. It's a sin to have "objectively disordered" sex. Which encompasses all gay sex.
   51. Perro(s) Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:16 PM (#4334941)
I promise not to sneak into Brandon Spikes' bathtub.


There's probably already a girl in there anyway. Perhaps alive.
   52. bookbook Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:23 PM (#4334943)
Major league baseball has easily maintained it's tolerance of convicted wife-beaters, as managers and players. That the players get their knickers in a knot over the moral failings of Gay people is beyond laughable.

And of course, how dare anyone be intolerant of intolerance? White slave holders were merely doing what they felt was the most moral thing possible in caring for, and beating to death, members of "inferior" races.
   53. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:25 PM (#4334944)
The gay thing isn't the top commandment or even in the top 10. It really should be relagated to shellfish level obscurity but yet it's all anyone wants to talk about. I guess dudes ####### other dudes just can't be left unaddressed. My pastor brings it up at least twice a month. Shellfish, not as much.
   54. Perro(s) Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4334946)
Raw oysters are disgusting, yet delicious.
   55. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4334952)
Homosexuality is a sin in most (all?) Christian denominations. The right way to gain tolerance is not to fight that - Christian dogma and beliefs are unlikely to change.
First, most mainline protestant denominations do not consider gay sex inherently sinful. This fact tends to get lost in discussions of sexuality and Christianity, because evangelical protestants and conservative Catholics dominate the conversation. Lutherans and Episcopals and Congregationalists and a variety of other Christian groups are now accepting of homosexuality and gay folks (we'll have gay marriage as official policy in the Lutheran and Episcopal churches soon), and the Presbyterians and Methodists are on their way. Christian dogma on homosexuality is in fact not unlikely to change - it is changing now, as we speak.

I can't believe someone actually went with the "you don't tolerate my bigotry. that makes you a bigot, too." I guess it is the best argument they've got.
   56. Eddo Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:38 PM (#4334953)
Thanks for the clarification on various denominations, MCoA. And I really hope I didn't come across as going with the "your intolerance of my bigotry makes you a bigot" defense. I don't feel that way at all.
   57. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:39 PM (#4334954)
"I know you are, but what am I?" :-)

This is such a counterproductive starting point for any dialogue. "You are a bigot. Nice to meet you."

You missed the point, which is there is no way to have a constructive dialogue, and here is why:
Christians would do well to remember that homosexuality is a sin

You think people having the audacity to exist is some sort of affront. You might as well claim that being black is a sin. It is a point of view, that people should be ashamed of, and the best way to achieve that is by shaming people who hold it.
   58. jdunster55 Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4334959)
I think the same portion of the Bible from which prohibitions on homosex also say you're supposed to keep kosher, Torii. If you eat shellfish, you're just as bad me. I think poly-cotton blends are also considered a no-no.

And I also promise to stay away from Brandon Spikes' bathtub. Unless he invites me there. Because he wants to scream. Or moan. Who knows?
   59. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4334960)
Thanks for the clarification on various denominations, MCoA. And I really hope I didn't come across as going with the "your intolerance of my bigotry makes you a bigot" defense. I don't feel that way at all.
Oh, no, I was unclear. Those were two entirely separate thoughts.

I do think it's important to note that Christian theology and social practice is moving steadily (in some cases more quickly than others) toward a proper embrance of gay men and women. I could recommend books.

But that is entirely separate from the idiotic line spouted by JR Wolf.
Christians would do well to remember that homosexuality is a sin rather than the sin of all sins.
And following on to that, Christians would do well to remember that homosexuality is not a sin. There are tons of books making this clear argument, one of my favorites, because it's also a cracking good history, is Mark Jordan, The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology. Patrick Cheng, Radical Love is a good general introduction to queer theology.
   60. 'Spos Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:53 PM (#4334964)
Most MLB uniforms are a mixture of fabrics, right?
   61. vivaelpujols Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:56 PM (#4334966)
I can't believe someone actually went with the "you don't tolerate my bigotry. that makes you a bigot, too."


Yes, the backlash there is always fascinating.
   62. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 30, 2012 at 11:58 PM (#4334967)
Most MLB uniforms are a mixture of fabrics, right?


Except the Braves' new batting practice hats. Those are made of 100% live injun skin.
   63. Perro(s) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:02 AM (#4334969)
And I also promise to stay away from Brandon Spikes' bathtub. Unless he invites me there. Because he wants to scream. Or moan. Who knows?

Put my money in your meter baby so it won't run down
You caught me in the squeeze play on the cheesy side of town
Throw me a dime, throw me a line...
I hear you moan, I hear you moan, I hear you moan...
   64. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:13 AM (#4334979)
Except the Braves' new batting practice hats. Those are made of 100% live injun skin.



Brilliant.
   65. jdunster55 Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4334980)
It's a sin to have "objectively disordered" sex. Which encompasses all gay sex.


If it's not objectively disordered, it's probably not much fun.
   66. smileyy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:15 AM (#4334983)
My intolerance isn't voluntary. There's a tiny monkey inseparably grafted on my back that continuously hurls racial slurs on my behalf.
   67. J.R. Wolf Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:18 AM (#4334987)
@Eddo: that was both intolerant and insulting. Congratulations on a twofer.

Intolerance is intolerance. Hate gays? Intolerance. Hate people who hate gays? Intolerance at the same level. (Exception: declaring up front that people who don't tolerate gays are "bigoted and wrong" actually makes the declarer even less tolerant than the opposition.)

People have the right to believe as they wish and you thought control bigots out there need to learn the very toleration that you think that your opponents are so lacking in.
   68. Eddo Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:24 AM (#4334992)
Intolerance is intolerance. Hate gays? Intolerance. Hate people who hate gays? Intolerance at the same level.

I disagree. The first is being intolerant of someone for being the way they are. The second is being intolerant of the way someone has chosen to act.

Is the second perfectly fine? No. The goal is to educate and help people become more tolerant. But just letting it go and saying, "you can feel however you want," is not the right way to go about it.
   69. McCoy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:26 AM (#4334993)
Being intolerant of Christians and conservatives is intolerance on a level that is every bit as bad as them being intolerant of homosexuals.

Sure but that isn't what is happening when people are unhappy with people like Torii when they say the things they say. It's a strawman argument.
   70. jdunster55 Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:27 AM (#4334994)
People have the right to believe as they wish and you thought control bigots out there need to learn the very toleration that you think that your opponents are so lacking in.


False equivalence. I can't stop you from believing what you want, however silly it may be, nor am I interested in doing so. But if you guys get your way, I get discriminated against. Possibly put in prison.
   71. Perro(s) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:27 AM (#4334995)
JR Wolf's best read in the voice of Eric Cartman.
   72. Perro(s) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4334996)
Tolerance isn't much of a virtue except in a drinking contest.
   73. vivaelpujols Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:43 AM (#4335011)
Exception: declaring up front that people who don't tolerate gays are "bigoted and wrong" actually makes the declarer even less tolerant than the opposition


Does this make sense? Don't think about it, just drink.
   74. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:44 AM (#4335012)
And following on to that, Christians would do well to remember that homosexuality is not a sin


Well of course it is, biblically. It great that some folks have found a novel way to move some books but it's not ambiguous language. The thing is that we all sin, biblically, thousands of times daily, homosexually isn't the unforgivable sin, and there is still a clear way for sinful man to be right with the Christian God.
   75. jdunster55 Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:46 AM (#4335013)
Put my money in your meter baby so it won't run down
You caught me in the squeeze play on the cheesy side of town
Throw me a dime, throw me a line...
I hear you moan, I hear you moan, I hear you moan...


You callin' me fat?!
   76. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:47 AM (#4335014)
Tolerance includes tolerating the ALL of the political, religious and lifestyle views and viewpoints of others, not just those of atheists, agnosticists and Leftists.


It may only be my particular reaction to this word. But "Tolerance", to me, says "I know the best way, and you choose not to think it with me. But I accept this."

There's a twinge of paternalism and self-righteousness to it.

   77. Walt Davis Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:59 AM (#4335022)
It's to remind those who are intolerant that homosexuals are just like any other sinners - which includes everyone on the planet - and go from there.

I'm sure you think this sounds perfectly reasonable.

The problem with this line of thinking is it requires me to accept your notion that homosexuality is a sin.

That is the very point I would be debating with you.

When you stop viewing gay people as sinners just for being gay and you stop lumping them in the same group as adulterers, theives, child-molesting priests, frauds and loan sharks, you'll have made a great deal of progress. We can go from there.
   78. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:01 AM (#4335023)
But if you guys get your way, I get discriminated against. Possibly put in prison.
Or in Uganda, killed.
   79. asinwreck Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:07 AM (#4335028)
Ben Chapman was uncomfortable sharing a baseball field with African Americans in 1947, but was forced to do so if he wanted to remain in baseball. One would hope Torii Hunter is familiar with that story, whether or not he gets the irony.
   80. base ball chick Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:08 AM (#4335029)
the reason that there are so many people freaking out over (male) homosexuals is that it's contagious. yes, that's right. you see, torii and his buddy spikes know that gay penises are magnetic and if you get next to one in the locker room, next thing you know, you are bending over to pick up the soap and liking it.

and you know how those athletes are always patting/rubbing each others butts - and doing other things too - just think about canseco/mcgwire in the bathroom stalls giving each other "injections" in the butt.

yes indeedy, those homosex guys are dangerous to baseball - put em in the locker room, and next thing you know, all them 3rd base players be stealin home, you feelin me here.

oh yeah - and the reason you ignore most of leviticus is because cotton/poly blends are comfy, genetically modified mixed breed seeds are the only ones you can buy, shellfish/bacon are delicious - however, buttsex is icky-poo.

oh yeah - if the rest of the conservatives were like harveys instead of like huckaster, this country wouldn't be so effed up
   81. Perro(s) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:17 AM (#4335035)
You callin' me fat?!


Tubby.
   82. bookbook Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:19 AM (#4335036)
Rabbi Hillel was right. All of religion boils down to the Golden Rule. The rest is just commentary. (I was raised Jewish, but am under the impression that Jesus essentially agreed, generations later?)
   83. jdunster55 Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:20 AM (#4335037)
the reason that there are so many people freaking out over (male) homosexuals is that it's contagious.


Sadly, it is not.

Also, we've been showering with breeder dudes all thru high school and college and the minors, well, those of us who get there anyway. I'd say that we learn to keep our urges under control, but it's not even that, really. The gym shower is not really a sexualized situation. I realize that the adult film industry does not view it that way, but I also once delivered pizzas and the adult film industry doesn't portray that profession accurately either. Go figure.
   84. vivaelpujols Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:27 AM (#4335042)
Anyone else think it would be funny to see Prince Fielder getting banged by Miguel Cabrera?

"Is it in yet?"

"I dunno, I can't feel it, I think you need to spread apart the fat first. You know what, nevermind, lets just do it in the mouth. I haven't had a sausage in years".

That would really tear Tori up!
   85. SoSH U at work Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:29 AM (#4335044)
I think it's safe to say that, in general, the reception of the first openly gay male athlete in the Big 3 will depend heavily on how good he is. If it's a perennial All-Star, even the most prejudiced would be able to put aside their "difficulty" so long as the player is helping the team.

But if it was a bench player who was perpetually having to fight for a roster spot every spring? That's an entirely different story.


I don't think so. I suspect as long as the guy is a respected pro, not an AJ or Arod type, he'll be fine. When ballplayers are asked about having a gay teammate, they don't think of a specific guy as being gay, but as a hypothetical person whose only known characteristic is his homosexuality. It's much easier to think this hypothetical guy will be a problem.

But that won't be the case. The first openly gay player will be someone who has, presumably, already demonstrated himself as a ballplayer and teammate and hearty fellow, etc., and thus his sexual preference will be just a small part of him. And while it will obviously be news for a while, I doubt it will be much of an issue in most clubhouses.

   86. base ball chick Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:33 AM (#4335047)
83 - i don't guess i should make jokes about locker room sex, but then again, i'm a bad BAD grrrrl

so are you trying to tell me that when you delivered pizzas all these hot dudes didn't suddenly realize what they'd been missing and you were makin a delivery you didn't expect?
   87. robinred Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:34 AM (#4335049)
breeder dudes


Heh. My guess is that this expression is common, but being unhip and uncool, I had never heard it. Pretty funny.

I agree with most of what SoSH said, and as discussed before, I think it is likely that the first active player to come out, whatever the sport, will be a guy who is pretty damn good to great and therefore secure.
   88. E., Hinske Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:37 AM (#4335050)
The problem with this line of thinking is it requires me to accept your notion that homosexuality is a sin.

Walt -

I think that's more of a counter-argument towards people who think homosexuality is a sin. You don't need to accept that homosexuality is a sin to make the argument to those who do that we're all sinners, homosexual behaviour isn't some sort of special unforgivable sin (at least in Catholicism) and that they ought not to any more hung up on it than they are adulterers.
   89. smileyy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:38 AM (#4335051)

But that won't be the case. The first openly gay player will be someone who has, presumably, already demonstrated himself as a ballplayer and teammate and hearty fellow, etc., and thus his sexual preference will be just a small part of him. And while it will obviously be news for a while, I doubt it will be much of an issue in most clubhouses.


Not to mention who will have a substantial number of teammates who don't care about him being gay -- who *very actively* want it to be the non-issue it should be, where a guy like Torii turns out to be the disruptive divisive presence in the clubhouse.

Edit: "non-issue" isn't the right way to put it, because it will be a big deal. More that there will be teammates who will be all: "Hey, don't be an #######..."
   90. SoSH U at work Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:43 AM (#4335056)
Not to mention who will have a substantial number of teammates who don't care about him being gay -- who *very actively* want it to be the non-issue it should be, where a guy like Torii turns out to be the disruptive divisive presence in the clubhouse.


Morever, I suspect that a lot of the Torii types will change their views when this gay teammate is a guy they happen to like/respect.

   91. jdunster55 Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:46 AM (#4335058)
so are you trying to tell me that when you delivered pizzas all these hot dudes didn't suddenly realize what they'd been missing and you were makin a delivery you didn't expect?


Lonely housewives do not look like porn stars, whether or not they are horny.

I am guessing that the local gays were not ordering pizza delivery, or at least were not doing so as a means of obtaining sexual gratification.
   92. jdunster55 Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:52 AM (#4335066)
You don't need to accept that homosexuality is a sin to make the argument to those who do that we're all sinners, homosexual behaviour isn't some sort of special unforgivable sin (at least in Catholicism) and that they ought not to any more hung up on it than they are adulterers.


A preacher who excoriates adulterers or gamblers is uncomfortably talking about a big chunk of his flock. A preacher who goes after homosexuals is maybe talking about a few relatives of his flock who likely don't go to his church.
   93. E., Hinske Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:05 AM (#4335070)
@jdunster55 - Sure, I don't disagree with that. Just because the pastor is keenly aware of who puts bread in his mouth doesn't mean that those of us who don't need to keep the congregation donating can't point out the incongruity.
   94. Erix Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:09 AM (#4335072)
#13 hit the nail on the head. I'm sure he's played with dozens of adulterers. That's one of the Ten freaking Commandments! He should be a lot more uncomfortable by that "as a Christian." What offends him as a bigot is his prerogative, just leave the church out of it.
   95. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:12 AM (#4335074)
When you stop viewing gay people as sinners just for being gay and you stop lumping them in the same group as adulterers, theives, child-molesting priests, frauds and loan sharks, you'll have made a great deal of progress. We can go from there

OK I have never viewed gay people as sinners just for being gay, and have never lumped them in with those other people. I have also made no progress since I have never thought differently. I still think that people can think whatever they like and I do not have the right to demonize them for disapproving of whatever they want to disapprove of. For example, I do not believe that polygamy is a sin, nor prostitution. I expect that there will be several posters here who think that they are. As far as I'm concerned you can all disapprove of whatever you like and I'm willing to tolerate you. OTOH I do believe that abortion is a sin. I expect that several posters who think it is not. If I am not extended the same tolerance for disapproving of something that you do not disapprove of you are, whether Walt likes it or not, just as bigoted as Torii Hunter. Further your brand of bigotry, wherein you believe you are somehow "superior" for being "tolerant" because you do not disapprove of something that I do disapprove of, irritates me far more than that of Torii Hunter, who is just saying what he thinks. He is not saying that he is a superior human being. You people are.
   96. Walt Davis Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:37 AM (#4335086)
Where did I say I am a superior human being?

I said homosexuality is not sinful.

I will also say that Jack Morris does not deserve to be a Hall of Famer.

I am not saying I am superior to those who disagree with me, I am saying, on these topics, that they are wrong, incorrect, misguided, what have you.

Now, you may disagree with me that the Who were better than the Beatles and I will not call you wrong. You might prefer Chinese food to Indian and I will not call you wrong.

But, in any of those cases, the notion that the best way for to engage someone is to grant the assumption that they are correct is a pointless non-starter. #88 is saying that I should engage people by pointing out their hypocrisy (this is questionable strategy but whatever). This is the approach that people are taking by noting that Hunter has probably played with many adulterers and should be as or more bothered by them than by any homosexuals he plays with. (For all we know Torii is very uncomfortable with the adulterers.)

Those positions are wrong. Those positions make the claim that homosexuality is a sin but that you should "love the sinner" or be more annoyed with adulterers. Those positions allow bigots to be comfortable in their bigotry.

Homosexuality is not a sin. There is NOTHING wrong with homosexuality. Not a single god-damned thing. The position of the Catholic Church (and many other religions and Christian sects) with regard to homosexuality is wrong. The position of many religions with regard to women is wrong. Major League Baseball was wrong to exclude black players. Slavery was wrong, Jim Crow was wrong, denying women the vote was wrong, monarchies and dictatorships are wrong. These are not hard questions.

That they are also often hypocritical in their castigation of some "sinners" and not others is just icing on the cake.
   97. Tilden Katz Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:38 AM (#4335087)
OK I have never viewed gay people as sinners just for being gay, and have never lumped them in with those other people. I have also made no progress since I have never thought differently. I still think that people can think whatever they like and I do not have the right to demonize them for disapproving of whatever they want to disapprove of. For example, I do not believe that polygamy is a sin, nor prostitution. I expect that there will be several posters here who think that they are. As far as I'm concerned you can all disapprove of whatever you like and I'm willing to tolerate you. OTOH I do believe that abortion is a sin. I expect that several posters who think it is not. If I am not extended the same tolerance for disapproving of something that you do not disapprove of you are, whether Walt likes it or not, just as bigoted as Torii Hunter. Further your brand of bigotry, wherein you believe you are somehow "superior" for being "tolerant" because you do not disapprove of something that I do disapprove of, irritates me far more than that of Torii Hunter, who is just saying what he thinks. He is not saying that he is a superior human being. You people are.


Was it inappropriate for the Civil Rights marchers to feel superior to the Bull Connors and George Wallaces of the world? There are still people in this country that are against interracial marriage, it it OK to criticize them? Is it "bigotry" to call those people out?

You have every right to demonize people for holding views you find to be abhorrent. There is no justifiable reason to be against homosexuality or gay sex.
   98. The District Attorney Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:38 AM (#4335088)
Torii Hunter, who is just saying what he thinks. He is not saying that he is a superior human being.
Sure he is. If "it's not right" to be gay, and he isn't gay, then he is superior to gays.
   99. smileyy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:44 AM (#4335093)
[95] (and others) seems to be making the moral relativist argument, where as [96] (and others) seems to be making a fundamental human rights argument.

FWIW, I'm in the "fundamental human rights" camp.
   100. Tilden Katz Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:46 AM (#4335094)
I wonder if Torii had said having a Jewish teammate or a Chinese teammate or a deaf teammate would be difficult he would be getting this same defense.
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