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Wednesday, October 31, 2007

Pete Rose No Longer Dreams of Being in Baseball’s Hall of Fame

Pete Rose has now become that old rumpled guy at the two-dollar window…that smells like an earthy mixture of Eau de Hamper and a full-thickness mucosal prolapse air-freshener.

Rose was annoyed that the Cleveland Indians had let the Red Sox off the ropes in the American League playoffs. “What disturbed me more than the fact that Cleveland blew a 3-to-1 lead, was how bad the games were played,” he said. “Guys dropping pop-ups, guys calling pop-ups, misplayed balls, baserunning errors. When you’re in the playoffs playing for the championship of the National or American leagues, you’re suppose to play like elite teams, and they didn’t. “

And what was behind it? Here’s Rose’s take: “I just don’t think they take time to learn how to play the game nowadays. There are so many teams, guys don’t spend much time in the minor leagues. Usually in the minor leagues you have to learn how to play the game of baseball if you weren’t fortunate to have a great high school or college coach to teach you the fundamentals.

“Back when I was in the minor leagues, we had minor league roving instructors who worked on every phase of the game. In other words, what I’m saying is you can’t have on-the-job training in the big leagues. People wont tolerate it because they’re paying too much money for tickets to watch you play.”

Repoz Posted: October 31, 2007 at 07:44 PM | 41 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: hall of fame, history, reds

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1. PepTech Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:13 PM (#2601824)

Everything he says that doesn't pertain to the HOF makes perfect sense to me.

In fact, even his take on the HOF stuff seems sane, except this:

"I admitted everything I did 14 months before the book came out to Bud Selig, the commissioner of baseball. It's strange that it took so long. It was like taking this 800-pound gorilla off my shoulder. In all those years, I had no idea who to tell. I decided I had to tell the one person who was running baseball."

All those years later, it FINALLY occurred to him the commissioner would be the guy to tell?

2. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:17 PM (#2601829)

How long did Pete Rose spend in the minors? He was only twenty-two when he was called up.

3. Brandon in MO (Yunitility Infielder) Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:29 PM (#2601839)

I think Rose may have spent like 4 years, maybe.

Keep in mind that a larger chunk of players weren't coming out of college in those days.

4. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:32 PM (#2601843)

Three seasons. Hit .277 at Geneva at age 19, .331 at Tampa at age 20, and hit .330 with 9 HR 71 RBI in Macon at age 21.

5. Van Lingle Mungo Jerry Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:33 PM (#2601844)

Pete Rose No Longer Dreams of Being in Baseball’s Hall of Fame.

Yes, but does he dream of electric sheep?

6. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:34 PM (#2601845)

Three seasons. Hit .277 at Geneva at age 19, .331 at Tampa at age 20, and hit .330 with 9 HR 71 RBI in Macon at age 21.

That doesn't seem like much, if any, more minor-league experience than what most players experience today.

7. Biscuit_pants Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:38 PM (#2601848)

That doesn't seem like much, if any, more minor-league experience than what most players experience today.

No, it doesn't but I did find his comment about the roving instructors interesting, if they are not doing that today then what are they doing instead?

8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:38 PM (#2601849)

That doesn't seem like much, if any, more minor-league experience than what most players experience today.

It was better back then okay? Bob Costas and Bob Feller told me so.

No, it doesn't but I did find his comment about the roving instructors interesting, if they are not doing that today then what are they doing instead?

I'm almost positive they still have minor league roving instructors.

9. plim Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:40 PM (#2601851)

2. The Jerry Royster Experience Posted: October 31, 2007 at 04:17 PM (#2601829)

How long did Pete Rose spend in the minors? He was only twenty-two when he was called up.

the cube knows all...
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/Pete-Rose-1.shtml

he spent 3 "years" in the minors, but he did play 2 full years: 130g/484ab (fsl) and 139g/540ab (sally) after a cup of tea in the nypl (85g/321ab)

EDIT: bah...forgot to hit submit...got beaten out by AG#1Fan

10. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:42 PM (#2601852)

I'm almost positive they still have minor league roving instructors.

I know they do. I don't know if every team has them, but many organizations do.

11. Bob Dernier Cri

Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:43 PM (#2601854)

Young prospects never spend (or ever spent) much time in the minor leagues, but what Rose may be trying to say is that there used to be a lot more veterans in the minors, guys on their way back down through the ranks. The Crash Davis phenomenon. You learned from your elders and betters. That may be nostalgic banana oil, but it may have a toehold on reality. The minors tend to be stocked nowadays with prospects who are let go as soon as it's clear they're not moving up. They are no longer a place where one has a career.

12. Kiko Sakata

Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:44 PM (#2601856)

Rose was annoyed that the Cleveland Indians had let the Red Sox off the ropes in the American League playoffs.

Am I the only person whose first thought on reading this was, "I wonder how much money he lost on the Indians?"

13. Sparkles Peterson Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:47 PM (#2601858)

The Crash Davis phenomenon. You learned from your elders and betters. That may be nostalgic banana oil, but it may have a toehold on reality. The minors tend to be stocked nowadays with prospects who are let go as soon as it's clear they're not moving up. They are no longer a place where one has a career.

Clearly you have not been following the Cardinals' farm system in recent years.

14. Dewey, Steven Wright Wannabe and Soupuss Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:49 PM (#2601861)

what Rose may be trying to say is that there used to be a lot more veterans in the minors, guys on their way back down through the ranks. The Crash Davis phenomenon. You learned from your elders and betters.

There are still lots of guys like that. Now, they're clustered at AAA, so I don't know if they used to scatter minor-league vets in the lower levels, but just looking at the IL and PCL leaderboards for 2007, I see guys like Val Pascucci, Scott Seabol, Pete LaForest, Fernando Tatis, Abraham Nunez, and Ernie Young, and that's just at first glance.

15. Harveys Wallbangers

Posted: October 31, 2007 at 08:51 PM (#2601863)

Here’s Rose’s take: “I just don’t think they take time to learn how to play the game nowadays. There are so many teams, guys don’t spend much time in the minor leagues. Usually in the minor leagues you have to learn how to play the game of baseball if you weren’t fortunate to have a great high school or college coach to teach you the fundamentals.

“Back when I was in the minor leagues, we had minor league roving instructors who worked on every phase of the game. In other words, what I’m saying is you can’t have on-the-job training in the big leagues. People wont tolerate it because they’re paying too much money for tickets to watch you play.”

Classic "Old Ballplayers Never Die" stuff. You can read quotations like this from players dating back to 1920. Seriously.

Rose was in the minors because he wasn't considered "star" material. He battled while at the plate, he battled on the bases and he battled defense at second base. He fought and fought and fought until he won. Pete Rose is testimony to an adamant refusal to surrender. As a ballplayer he was the baseball version of the Siege of Leningrad. Rose would eat rats before failing on the field.

There have been a 1000, no probably several thousand, ballplayers with more baseball "talent" than Pete Rose.

16. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: October 31, 2007 at 09:01 PM (#2601867)

How long did Pete Rose spend in the minors?

Three years.

That doesn't seem like much, if any, more minor-league experience than what most players experience today.

Yeah, but you have to remember, he's an exception. He was a Hall of Fame player. Oh, wait . . . .

17. galaxieboi Posted: October 31, 2007 at 09:06 PM (#2601868)

Ha! Pete Rose bet me $50 he'd get in!

18. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 31, 2007 at 09:09 PM (#2601869)

"Am I the only person whose first thought on reading this was, 'I wonder how much money he lost on the Indians?'"

No, you aren't.

"I see guys like Val Pascucci..."

Pascucci really belongs on somebody's 25-man roster.

19. Bull Pain Posted: October 31, 2007 at 09:10 PM (#2601870)

Teams are still loaded with roving instructors. It keeps numerous ex-players employed.

20. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: October 31, 2007 at 09:57 PM (#2601892)

He's just trying to get a minor league job for Pete Jr.

21. RJ in TO Posted: October 31, 2007 at 10:37 PM (#2601913)

To the best of my knowledge, the majority of Pete Rose's income comes from the sale of his signature. As a general question, would his signature be worth more or less if he gets in to the Hall of Fame?

The reason that I ask is that it seems like Rose is only a story right now because he isn't in the hall, due to his gambling ban. If, for some reason, baseball voids the ban - either with respect to all baseball or just the hall - doesn't the entire basis of his self-marketing disappear? After all, then he becomes just another hall of famer, rather than "Pete Rose - should be in the Hall of Fame but banned from Baseball".

I'm honestly curious about this.

22. jwb Posted: October 31, 2007 at 11:01 PM (#2601936)

Bill James looked into to minor league career length about twenty years ago. It has been remarkably stable since WWII: 450 games, on average. It goes up during expansion years, as older more experienced minor leaguers who know how to play the game (but have lower ceilings) flood into MLB, but that washes out after a few seasons. If anything, he concluded that more top prospects are playing more minor league games than in the period from 1950-1970.

Also, more minor league players are coming from college programs, so they already have a few years of experience above high school as well as having made the adjustment to living somewhat on their own.

Some mention also has to be made of the baseball programs in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela, where kids are signed at age 16 and live, breathe, sleep, and play baseball for years before showing up in the organized minor leagues. The top prospects play in the winter leagues with and against MLB regulars while still of high school age.

23. Repoz

Posted: October 31, 2007 at 11:07 PM (#2601942)

Some mention also has to be made of the baseball programs in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela, where kids are signed at age 16 and live, breathe, sleep, and play baseball for years before showing up in the organized minor leagues.

Yeah...But they're not playing the game the right way!

24. Dag Nabbit apealing [sic] his own check swing Posted: October 31, 2007 at 11:11 PM (#2601945)

As a ballplayer he was the baseball version of the Siege of Leningrad. Rose would eat rats before failing on the field.

That's especially impressive given that for Rose eating rats would be cannibalism. <rimshot>

25. Tim Stauffer, Trot Nixon's Coming (Dan Lee) Posted: October 31, 2007 at 11:25 PM (#2601952)

Pete Rose No Longer Dreams of Being in Baseball’s Hall of Fame

Excellent. Now I can dream of never having to hear about it ever again.

26. jwb Posted: October 31, 2007 at 11:50 PM (#2601969)

Pete Rose No Longer Dreams of Being in Baseball’s Hall of Fame

Excellent. Now I can dream of never having to hear about it ever again.

He didn't say that he was going to stop ######## about it for the other 16 hours a day. . .

27. T.J. Posted: October 31, 2007 at 11:50 PM (#2601970)

Classic "Old Ballplayers Never Die" stuff. You can read quotations like this from players dating back to 1920. Seriously.

I could have sworn these quotes started even before then. But after pulling out my copies of both the BJHBA and the NBJHBA the earliest one I could find was Iron Joe McGinnity in the 1924 Spalding Guide:

(T)he pitchers of the present time are not as good as they were in other days... McGinnity calls attention to the faults of the present-day pitchers and is depressed by the fact that so few of them possess a good curve or try to acquire one. He thinks this is due to the fact that so many pitchers "got by" in the past with a straight delivery because they pretended to have a spit-ball, or some other method of pitching that was out of the ordinary.

28. Greg Pope Posted: October 31, 2007 at 11:57 PM (#2601975)

Hmmm... I was just thinking about what could possibly take the BTF collective mind off of A-Rod, and lo and behold, a Pete Rose thread!

29. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 01, 2007 at 12:00 AM (#2601976)

Bill James, in the BJHBA, quotes Bill Joyce, an excellent third baseman of the 1890s, as condemning the attitudes of players in 1916:

"Base ball today is not what it should be. The players do not try to learn all the fine points of the game as in the days of old, but simply try to get by...

...The boys go out to the plate, take a slam at the ball, pray that they'll get a hit, and let it go at that. They are not fighting as in the days of old...

...In my days, the man who was responsible for having lost a game was told in a man's way by a lot of men what a rotten ball player he really was. It makes me weep to think of the men of the old days who played the game and the boys of today. It's positively a shame, and they are getting big money for it, too."

30. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 01, 2007 at 12:01 AM (#2601978)

Double post..oops!

31. T.J. Posted: November 01, 2007 at 12:12 AM (#2601987)

Thanks, vortex. There it is on page 107. I don't know how I missed it the first time.

32. Dan Evensen Posted: November 01, 2007 at 02:50 AM (#2602113)

You can find quotes similar to that from seasons before 1910 if you have a New York Times ProQuest subscription. Or if you have the magic gift to read faded-out (and poorly-scanned) Sporting News Text on Paper of Record from that time.

33. Hugh Jorgan Posted: November 01, 2007 at 03:03 AM (#2602118)

"Hmmm... I was just thinking about what could possibly take the BTF collective mind off of A-Rod, and lo and behold, a Pete Rose thread!"

The question is which team did Pete Rose take in the A-rod betting sweepstakes...

34. HowardMegdal

Posted: November 01, 2007 at 03:39 AM (#2602138)

I think it's sad that roving instructors are nearly extinct. A nomadic tribe, they once provided instruction to any minor league team that needed it, subsisting from a diet of outfield grass and fungoes.

In retrospect, their treaty with Branch Rickey was the crucial mistake.

35. Walt Davis Posted: November 01, 2007 at 04:50 AM (#2602163)

Ernie Young

I love that guy.

Trenidad Hubbard still around?

36. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 01, 2007 at 05:13 AM (#2602173)

...In my days, the man who was responsible for having lost a game was told in a man's way by a lot of men what a rotten ball player he really was.

He's right. The Yankees tried this with Arod and it failed miserably.

37. jwb Posted: November 01, 2007 at 05:55 AM (#2602194)

Trenidad Hubbard still around?

Sorry, Walt. It looks like the end of the trail for him was in Durham in 2005.

It looks like Curtis Pride is about done, too. One of my sisters was deaf, so I've always been rooting for him.

Did you hear the story about Hubbard's mother and one of the B-Pro guys? The guy was hurt pretty badly in a car accident and Hubbard's mother was one of his his nurses while he was convalescing. She saw the big stack of baseball books he had and asked if he had heard of his son and what he thought of his prospects. I think he said something on the order of, "He's not going to be a star but he should make good money for quite a few years." He also said she was a very good nurse. I think it was in a player comment from about five years ago. So not all snark all the time over there.

38. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: November 01, 2007 at 12:39 PM (#2602281)

Yes, but does he dream of electric sheep?

That, and 'roids.

39. Dan Szymborski

Posted: November 01, 2007 at 01:12 PM (#2602303)

Did Pride ever give cochlear implants a try?

40. Belfry Bob Posted: November 01, 2007 at 02:29 PM (#2602432)

Rose was annoyed that the Cleveland Indians had let the Red Sox off the ropes in the American League playoffs.

...and expressed his disgust with a wave of his newly-cast broken arm.

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Pete Rose No Longer Dreams of Being in Baseball’s Hall of Fame

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