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Wednesday, October 05, 2011

Petti: Dear ESPN, A.J. Burnett Was Not “Good” Last Night

Just because I can’t take another pro-A.J. caller on Francesspool…

First, Burnett gave up four hits and walked four batters in 5 2/3 innings. That means he finished the game with a 1.50 walks plus hits per inning pitched last night. His seasonal WHIP? 1.43. So he actually allowed more baserunners per inning than during his regular season, which most would characterize as far from “good”.

Second, Burnett’s K/BB ratio was .75, and out of his 81 pitches, 49 went for strikes (a strike-to-ball ratio of only 1.5). So not only did Burnett provide free passes at an unacceptable rate through 5+ innings, he couldn’t make up for it through strikeouts. If he had been pitching that well, I would have expected a better K/BB ratio and more than three K’s through 5+ innings.

Third, Burnett benefited from a ridiculously low BABIP against last night. The Tigers only batted .190 on balls in play during Burnett’s time on the mound. During the regular seasons, Burnett had a BABIP against on ground balls of .238. Last night? The Tigers went 0-10 on ground balls.

...Add all this together and it’s really hard to say that Burnett, on balance, was “good” last night. The only way you do this is by focusing on the runs against.

And if you are doing that, you can’t really be considered the ‘worldwide leader in sports’.

Repoz Posted: October 05, 2011 at 06:04 PM | 75 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: tigers, yankees

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   1. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: October 05, 2011 at 06:37 PM (#3952508)
Man, thie WHIP argument is really stupid when you're talking about a 5.2 inning sample. And especially when one of the talks was intentional. Take that BB out and his WHIP drops to 1.23 or something like that. So, yeah, smarmy condescending saber dude looks pretty dumb himself using a WHIP argument for a 5 inning sample.
   2. Cowboy Popup Posted: October 05, 2011 at 06:42 PM (#3952517)
Burnett gave up one run in 5 and 2/3s innings in an elimination game. That is a good performance by him (and the defense of course). Everything else is semantics.
   3. Shock Posted: October 05, 2011 at 06:42 PM (#3952518)
I think you can make the argument that Burnett pitched lousy without coming across as a sabr-dork. That's the real secret to good baseball writing from "our side," imo.
   4. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 05, 2011 at 06:42 PM (#3952519)
Most of this analysis is pretty ridiculous - citing a BABIP for a single game is silly. Nevertheless, it seemed obvious to me that Burnett was far more lucky than good last night. I say this for two reasons:

Burnett allowed four walks, two singles, a double and a homer in 5 2/3 innings, yet escaped allowing only one run. My back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that by basic runs created, that ought to be about 2.5 runs, not one.

On all four of the Tigers' hits off Burnett, the batter just smoked the ball. There wasn't a cheapie among them. Plus there were at least three other very hard-hit balls that could easily have been hits: Don Kelly's fly ball in the first, Ramon Santiago's one-hop scorcher that turned into a 4-6-3 DP, and Cabrera's line shot at Jeter's head. They could very well have had twice as many hits off Burnett.
   5. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 05, 2011 at 06:48 PM (#3952525)
So Verlander was crap on Monday, Burnett was crap on Tuesday, are we setting the bar at "8 shutout innings" at this point? Like any other number BABIP is going to be useful in the large scale, in a small sample it is close to meaningless. I didn't see the game last night but the idea that a starting pitcher could have true .190 BABIP "stuff" in a given start seems reasonable to me. Some days guys have it, some days they don't. Over 162 games or 30 starts or whatever that is going to even out.

Like I said, I didn't see the game so maybe AJ was getting a lot of "at 'em" balls. Simply presenting the BABIP data, some poorly interpreted WHIP information and a not especially horrible strike rate does not convince me that he wasn't good.
   6. Best Regards, L.M. Posted: October 05, 2011 at 07:02 PM (#3952541)
Burnett was absolutely terrible in the first inning, but he was just fine the rest of the way.

His MO is generally to be good for a few innings, then lose it very suddenly when his mechanics get out of whack (as they are prone to do with a guy with Burnett's build). I think he may have been about to lose it in the 6th last night, but Girardi got him out of there right away.
   7. Howie Menckel Posted: October 05, 2011 at 07:03 PM (#3952543)
I wonder if this 29-second Mike Francesca "Al Albuerque" malaprop deserves its own thread.

http://www.twitvid.com/E7LEX

all sorts of awesome...
   8. Best Regards, L.M. Posted: October 05, 2011 at 07:16 PM (#3952553)
Mother of God.
   9. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 05, 2011 at 07:23 PM (#3952562)
Yeah, but Francesca was less wrong than Al's mom.
   10. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: October 05, 2011 at 07:41 PM (#3952579)
Add all this together and it’s really hard to say that Burnett, on balance, was “good” last night. The only way you do this is by focusing on the runs against.


I hate it when the scoreboard focuses on runs. Why do they even keep track of that?
   11. Shock Posted: October 05, 2011 at 07:42 PM (#3952581)
   12. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: October 05, 2011 at 07:46 PM (#3952587)
Follow-up


It seems like Francesa's job should be some combination of knowledge of sports and ability to communicate. Maybe he just has great tits.
   13. JC in DC Posted: October 05, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3952598)
as they are prone to do with a guy with Burnett's build


Larry: Can you say more about this? I've not heard this before (at least about guys with Burnett's build). What does it mean?
   14. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 05, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#3952604)
Burnett gave up one run in 5 and 2/3s innings in an elimination game. That is a good performance by him (and the defense of course). Everything else is semantics.

He was good enough to win, and that's the only ####### thing that matters. Of course he was lucky in the first inning, but that's part of the game.

-----------------------------------------------------

I hate it when the scoreboard focuses on runs. Why do they even keep track of that?

"Just to irritate Ray" would be my guess. What they really should do is to award the win to the "best" team.
   15. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2011 at 08:02 PM (#3952606)
I love how he pretends that he knew the pitcher as "Alberto Jose Alburquerque" and only didn't know he went by "Al."
   16. Shock Posted: October 05, 2011 at 08:06 PM (#3952610)

I love how he pretends that he knew the pitcher as "Alberto Jose Alburquerque" and only didn't know he went by "Al."


Yes, that was hilarious. I know Pujols as Albert Pujols, but if someone decided to call him Al Pujols I think I'd know who they were talking about. "Twitvid" seems an apropos place for videos of this buffoon.
   17. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: October 05, 2011 at 08:23 PM (#3952624)
Yes, that was hilarious. I know Pujols as Albert Pujols, but if someone decided to call him Al Pujols I think I'd know who they were talking about.


He probably hung up on somebody for talking about pooholes in 2001.
   18. AROM Posted: October 05, 2011 at 08:24 PM (#3952626)
I'm down with "no harm, no foul", so I won't say AJ had a bad start. But good? He can thank Curtis Granderson for bailing him out. And Derek Jeter, who believe it or not made some very nice plays last night. Jeter made plays on two balls that were hit further away from SS than the two Russell Martin hits pasta-diving Peralta.
   19. MM1f Posted: October 05, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#3952631)
I'm down with "no harm, no foul", so I won't say AJ had a bad start. But good? He can thank Curtis Granderson for bailing him out. And Derek Jeter, who believe it or not made some very nice plays last night. Jeter made plays on two balls that were hit further away from SS than the two Russell Martin hits pasta-diving Peralta.

I think when you call that start good it's obvious that part of that means "good for Burnett." If CC or Verlander had a start like that the reaction wouldn't be "good start," it'd be something like "He wasn't sharp tonight but he battled through it and got the job done." Or something like that.
   20. Best Regards, L.M. Posted: October 05, 2011 at 08:58 PM (#3952655)
Larry: Can you say more about this? I've not heard this before (at least about guys with Burnett's build). What does it mean?
Long arms and long legs, so there's a lot more movement in his throwing motion, making it a bit harder to maintain good mechanics.
   21. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: October 05, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#3952662)
I'm going to go with:

Was it objectively good?

No.

Was it objectively good enough?

Absolutely.
   22. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 05, 2011 at 09:13 PM (#3952671)
I'm down with "no harm, no foul", so I won't say AJ had a bad start. But good? He can thank Curtis Granderson for bailing him out.

I know everybody's rich on MLB teams nowadays, but Burnett providing a six-pack of Granderson's beverage of choice would be a nice gesture here.
I miss Mark Fidrych.
   23. AROM Posted: October 06, 2011 at 02:22 AM (#3953001)
Granderson's first inning catch was a bit of a misjudgment and recovery. Made it look tougher than it should have. But his 6th inning catch was the kind of thing seen in Angels in the Oufield. Spectacular and hard to believe.
   24. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 02:23 AM (#3953002)
I'm down with "no harm, no foul", so I won't say AJ had a bad start. But good? He can thank Curtis Granderson for bailing him out. And Derek Jeter, who believe it or not made some very nice plays last night. Jeter made plays on two balls that were hit further away from SS than the two Russell Martin hits pasta-diving Peralta.


I don't think AJ pitched a "great" game -- 3 walks and some hard hit balls -- but he did catch some breaks for a change and made it through.

I thought he would do ok because his two main weaknesses are home runs and walks, and aside from Cabrera and maybe Avila (who Leyland stunningly bats 8th), the Tigers aren't very good at those things.

Worth noting that the Granderson catch was, in my view, a severe misread by Granderson that he happened to recover from. (Even if Mike Francesa, unbelievably, thought the catch was so good that he had to say it was worse than the Agee catches. You think?) Yes, the ball was smacked, but the Grandy Man shouldn't have had any trouble with the play.

Girardi... my god can he learn how to manage. Why does he love giving the other team baserunners? Why does he love giving away outs with sac bunting? It's really comical how bad he is at this.
   25. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:37 AM (#3953081)
"Just to irritate Ray" would be my guess. What they really should do is to award the win to the "best" team.


Andy: Do you think we can tell who the best team is from a 7 game playoff series?
   26. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:58 AM (#3953113)
"Just to irritate Ray" would be my guess. What they really should do is to award the win to the "best" team.

Andy: Do you think we can tell who the best team is from a 7 game playoff series?


Of course not, but the question itself is 100% inconsequential. Do you doubt for a second that anyone associated in any way with the 2001 Mariners would gladly switch those 116 regular season wins for that Diamondbacks' World Series trophy?
   27. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 02:56 PM (#3953370)
Of course not, but the question itself is 100% inconsequential. Do you doubt for a second that anyone associated in any way with the 2001 Mariners would gladly switch those 116 regular season wins for that Diamondbacks' World Series trophy?


So you concede my point, and then try to change the subject. The question itself is 100% consequential to me. I enjoy the playoffs but I don't take any special meaning from them. The fact that the playoffs do not determine the best team is the reason why.
   28. Lassus Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:05 PM (#3953381)
I'm disappointed Ray hasn't shown up in the Steve Jobs thread.
   29. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:06 PM (#3953385)
Andy: Do you think we can tell who the best team is from a 7 game playoff series?

Of course not, but the question itself is 100% inconsequential. Do you doubt for a second that anyone associated in any way with the 2001 Mariners would gladly switch those 116 regular season wins for that Diamondbacks' World Series trophy?

So you concede my point, and then try to change the subject.


"Concede" it? I was never arguing against it in the first place.

The question itself is 100% consequential to me. I enjoy the playoffs but I don't take any special meaning from them. The fact that the playoffs do not determine the best team is the reason why.

More power to you in your 30 year War Against The Windmills, and all hail the Pythagorean God of Truly Meaningful Metrics.
   30. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:09 PM (#3953389)
Andy, I'm at a loss to understand your point.
   31. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:20 PM (#3953403)
Andy, I'm at a loss to understand your point.

The only point is that nobody but you cares who the "best" team is, as opposed to caring who wins the World Series. YMMV and all that.
   32. Russ Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:26 PM (#3953410)
I think the author also misses the point that Burnett performed well relative to the extremely low expectations that many had for him, given his previous postseason performances.
   33. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:35 PM (#3953420)
The only point is that nobody but you cares who the "best" team is, as opposed to caring who wins the World Series.


You can't possibly know that, but regardless, what do _you_ take from a World Series championship, if not that the team that won was necessarily better? Do you think the players who won had special character? I'm asking seriously. To me, the World Series is fun because it's fun to see two teams competing at a high level for one prize. But I'm not sure what special significance you want me to take from the outcome. What special significance do _you_ take from the outcome? Are we really not on the same page here?
   34. CrosbyBird Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:43 PM (#3953424)
So you concede my point, and then try to change the subject. The question itself is 100% consequential to me. I enjoy the playoffs but I don't take any special meaning from them. The fact that the playoffs do not determine the best team is the reason why.

The regular season doesn't determine the best team either, for a number of reasons. Do you not take any special meaning from the regular season either?
   35. JJ1986 Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:49 PM (#3953428)
The only point is that nobody but you cares who the "best" team is, as opposed to caring who wins the World Series.


I care about both. The 1995 Indians and 2001 Mariners are notable teams in the scheme of things, only slightly less because they didn't win.
   36. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 03:55 PM (#3953438)
Ray, it should mean something to you that every single player that ever speaks to the media puts winning a WS at the top of the list of the most important events in their career. Players play to win a WS, not to produce the best WAR or win the most regular season games. If you want to analyze the living bejeezus out of the sport that's fine, but here in the real world people like winners, and you should be able to understand that.

Do men buy their fiance a diamond ring because it looks nice and sparkly and makes her feel special, or because it rates a 10 on the Moh's hardness scale? Do people enjoy looking at a painting by one of the old masters because it is beautiful and captivating or because it took 3,478,534 brush strokes and used 784 optically discernible paint colours? Jesus Christ.
   37. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 04:16 PM (#3953457)
The regular season doesn't determine the best team either, for a number of reasons. Do you not take any special meaning from the regular season either?


The regular season is longer, and so a division title, while still not being determinative of the best team, is (*) more meaningful than winning a tournament.

(*) Or used to be, anyway. The wildcard has queered this, to the point where teams don't care if they win the division as long as they're in the postseason anyway. The entire game now (the teams, the players, the fanbases, the media) are overly obsessed with winning a meaningless postseason tournament. I get that I'm in the minority on this, but I don't see why that matters.
   38. CrosbyBird Posted: October 06, 2011 at 04:51 PM (#3953494)
The regular season is longer, and so a division title, while still not being determinative of the best team, is (*) more meaningful than winning a tournament.

That's a different argument.

The real problem is that we start off the conversation without having an agreed upon definition of "best." To say "the best team is the one with the most wins over 162 games because a 162-game season is the most accurate measure of team quality" is somewhat circular, don't you think?

Team A wins 95 regular-season games, and Team B wins 90. Team A didn't have any major injuries all season, and Team B lost three starters for at least a month each, but they're all back at full strength now. Team B also traded at the deadline for the best player in the league, replacing one of their weakest positions, while Team A didn't make any trades. Would you really argue that Team A is the better team?

Over a full season, a difference of 5-10 games is not in itself a great measure of team quality. Obviously a 100-win team is better than an 80-win team, of course, but an 88-win team may well be better than a 98-win team for a number of reasons (league quality, unbalanced schedule, or even just having a few series against another team or two at the wrong time).
   39. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:10 PM (#3953511)
The only point is that nobody but you cares who the "best" team is, as opposed to caring who wins the World Series.

You can't possibly know that, but regardless, what do _you_ take from a World Series championship, if not that the team that won was necessarily better?


I take from it that they're now the World Champions. That's more than enough either to satisfy me or disgust me.

Do you think the players who won had special character? I'm asking seriously. \

Depends. If they're wearing uniforms like this, then of course---it's a given. But other than that, nah.

To me, the World Series is fun because it's fun to see two teams competing at a high level for one prize. But I'm not sure what special significance you want me to take from the outcome. What special significance do _you_ take from the outcome?

The fact that the Yankees either won or lost or weren't in it. Or as a backup, at least the AL team won. Beyond that, there's no significance other than vicarious bragging rights and a touch or two of schadenfreude in special occasions---but then, what else DO you need?

Are we really not on the same page here?

Not if (somehow) determining the "best" team matters more to you than determining the World's Champion.

-----------------------------------------

Do men buy their fiance a diamond ring because it looks nice and sparkly and makes her feel special, or because it rates a 10 on the Moh's hardness scale?

Depends on the man, and even more, it depends on the woman.
   40. Eddo Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:13 PM (#3953518)
You can't possibly know that, but regardless, what do _you_ take from a World Series championship, if not that the team that won was necessarily better? Do you think the players who won had special character? I'm asking seriously. To me, the World Series is fun because it's fun to see two teams competing at a high level for one prize. But I'm not sure what special significance you want me to take from the outcome. What special significance do _you_ take from the outcome? Are we really not on the same page here?

It's sports. There is nothing significant to take from any outcome, besides satisfaction that your team won a game, series, division, etc.
   41. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:16 PM (#3953526)
The wildcard has queered this, to the point where teams don't care if they win the division as long as they're in the postseason anyway. The entire game now (the teams, the players, the fanbases, the media) are overly obsessed with winning a meaningless postseason tournament.


Winning the World Series is about being the "Champion." I don't care about my team being the best, I want them to win the championship. That is the goal of any athletic endeavor. I sincerely doubt that any player in baseball would rather win a division/pennant than win the World Series and I bet that would be true for the last 108 years. To call the World Series a "meaningless postseason tournament" is just a complete lack of recognition of the goal of every player in baseball.

Depends. If they're wearing uniforms like this, then of course


Not sure it was intentional but I like that you used a picture of that team from 2004.
   42. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:27 PM (#3953547)
To call the World Series a "meaningless postseason tournament" is just a complete lack of recognition of the goal of every player in baseball.


I call ########. Players are worried about their careers and their contracts first. They want to perform well individually. Secondary to that is winning the World Series.
   43. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:28 PM (#3953548)
Not sure it was intentional but I like that you used a picture of that team from 2004.

Yeah, but it was taken after game 2. They had to burn the uniforms after game 7.
   44. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:38 PM (#3953561)
Jesus, are there still people in 2011 who think that it's necessary to play the games to figure out the best team?
   45. Blastin Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:40 PM (#3953567)
I call ########. Players are worried about their careers and their contracts first. They want to perform well individually. Secondary to that is winning the World Series.


Maybe before establishing themselves and/or after winning several.

But for the vast majority of the league, you think they're running and leaping on each other when they hit their 40th hr of the year (unless it's number 763)?

No. They want to win.
   46. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:47 PM (#3953578)
Not sure it was intentional but I like that you used a picture of that team from 2004.


What makes it 2004? The patch?
   47. Nasty Nate Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:56 PM (#3953591)
The entire game now (the teams, the players, the fanbases, the media) are overly obsessed with winning a meaningless postseason tournament.


If everyone is obsessed with it, it is therefore not meaningless.

Similarly, until all you guys stop obessing over the writers' awards, I can't claim that the MVP is meaningless.
   48. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:56 PM (#3953593)
What makes it 2004? The patch?


The link itself. I'm assuming it's 2004;

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/photo/photogallery/springtraining_2004/0329j/01.jpg

Wasn't that the year the Yanks opened in Japan? I think that patch would be from that series.
   49. Blastin Posted: October 06, 2011 at 05:57 PM (#3953595)
Yes, and looking at the background that's a pretty Japanese-dome-lookin' stadium.
   50. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 06:04 PM (#3953610)
The link itself. I'm assuming it's 2004;


Never mind me, I'll be in the corner with my dunce hat on.
   51. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 06, 2011 at 06:41 PM (#3953660)
I think it's sad that everyone is obsessed with a goal achievement of which doesn't mean what they think it means. "World Champion" is not synonymous with "best team," but I think the players and media think it is. If they didn't think it was, why would they attach such importance to it?
   52. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 06:47 PM (#3953671)
If everyone is obsessed with it, it is therefore not meaningless.


People (players, fans, media) think it means something that it doesn't. That's the problem.

Instead of enjoying something for what it is, they bizarrely think it is something that it isn't.
   53. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 06, 2011 at 06:51 PM (#3953677)
Precisely.
   54. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 06, 2011 at 06:54 PM (#3953682)
"World Champion" is not synonymous with "best team," but I think the players and media think it is.


The purpose of just about every competitor in every sporting competition is to win. Convincing yourself and others that you have the best team is not satisfying at all if you don't win. I think the Phillies are the best team in baseball right now, and will continue to think so even if they lose in the postseason. The Phillies themselves may very well think that way, too. I doubt that will be of very much comfort to them if they lose to the Cardinals tomorrow.

No one wants to win the championship so that people will declare them "the best team." People try to assemble the best team so that they can win the championship.
   55. Nasty Nate Posted: October 06, 2011 at 06:59 PM (#3953690)
I think #51 and #52 are a little condesceding and arrogant.

No one wants to win the championship so that people will declare them "the best team." People try to assemble the best team so that they can win the championship.


exactly
   56. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:01 PM (#3953693)
"World Champion" is not synonymous with "best team," but I think the players and media think it is.

Maybe my SF-Giants-fan friends are just unusually rational people - though given that they're my friends, maybe not - but last year to a one they all seemed pretty clear on the difference between "best team in baseball" and "World Series champion." The Giants weren't the best team in baseball... but they won the World Series! And they all seemed pretty happy about that.
   57. Eddo Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:05 PM (#3953698)
No one wants to win the championship so that people will declare them "the best team." People try to assemble the best team so that they can win the championship.

Well put.
   58. Lassus Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:06 PM (#3953701)
Forget it.
   59. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:10 PM (#3953705)
I think #51 and #52 are a little condesceding and arrogant.


#51 and #52 merely describe reality.
   60. Nasty Nate Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:14 PM (#3953709)
#51 and #52 merely describe reality.


everyone's so stupid that they don't understand that an otherwise inferior team can get hot and win a tournament? That is incorrect and arrogant. It seems like you, and not everyone else, is having trouble picking up the subleties of postseason/playoffs/championships.
   61. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:20 PM (#3953716)
everyone's so stupid that they don't understand that an otherwise inferior team can get hot and win a tournament?


People think that WS winners have better character than the other teams. People think players choke in the playoffs. That's why they ascribe a heightened meaning to it. People don't understand what they're seeing.
   62. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:25 PM (#3953723)
I'm beginning to think that Ray would enjoy watching a computer spit out the results of a Diamond Mind simulation more than attending a WS game. Honest question Ray - do you have Asperger's Syndrome? If you did it would certainly go a long way in explaining your mindset about certain things.
   63. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:36 PM (#3953731)
People think that WS winners have better character than the other teams. People think players choke in the playoffs. That's why they ascribe a heightened meaning to it. People don't understand what they're seeing.

A few things that people don't understand in Rayworld:

---Championships don't matter

---Global warming is a hoax

---"It's over. It's always been over" only means "unless it's not"

---Progressive taxation is akin to stealing

---Choking is a myth

---Everyone who doesn't buy into Ray's premises is either "illogical" or "dishonest", and that there are no allowable starting points of a discussion other than Ray's
   64. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:39 PM (#3953735)

People think that WS winners have better character than the other teams. People think players choke in the playoffs. That's why they ascribe a heightened meaning to it. People don't understand what they're seeing.


I don't think anyone here is arguing any of those things. I think Andy made a comment but I'm pretty sure it was tongue-in-cheek and that's about the only one.
   65. Nasty Nate Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:40 PM (#3953739)
I don't think anyone here is arguing any of those things. I think Andy made a comment but I'm pretty sure it was tongue-in-cheek and that's about the only one.


I think he's talking about everyone in the general public, not here.
   66. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3953766)
I think [Ray]'s talking about everyone in the general public, not here.

Which kind of explains why he usually seems like he's mostly talking to himself. Hell, on this thread, even Nieporent isn't covering his back, which has got to be one of the rarer non-barking dog phenomena of all time when it comes to BTF.
   67. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 07:59 PM (#3953769)
I think he's talking about everyone in the general public, not here.


People in the general public, and people here who ascribe a heightened meaning to the playoffs beyond what it deserves because they don't understand what they are watching.
   68. CrosbyBird Posted: October 06, 2011 at 08:01 PM (#3953776)
People think that WS winners have better character than the other teams. People think players choke in the playoffs. That's why they ascribe a heightened meaning to it. People don't understand what they're seeing.

Human beings, in general, don't do well with cognitive dissonance. We expect the team with the trophy to be the best team; otherwise, it rubs against our concept of fairness. Even when we root for the scrappy underdog, the underlying belief is that they'll prove that they actually are the best team, and it's only not obvious because of circumstance. If Team A looks better than Team B on paper but loses, then we'll naturally look for reasons other than raw talent to explain the result.

It also is true that some teams actually do have better character, and some players actually do choke in high-pressure situations. It makes more than no sense at all to at least speculate that there is some relationship. We've seen closers that are remarkably less capable when they don't open an inning, or hitters that struggle when they aren't fielding a position. Clearly, the players aren't robots, and there's more than just their natural ability.

It is one thing to say that good chemistry isn't consistently correlated with winning or that we can't predict who will be a choker, but yet another to say that these things don't have any effect on performance. That said, I don't think very many sports fans legitimately believe that the best team wins every time, but just the team that was the best on that particular day.
   69. Nasty Nate Posted: October 06, 2011 at 08:01 PM (#3953778)
because they don't understand what they are watching.


that's the arrogant part

That said, I don't think very many sports fans legitimately believe that the best team wins every time, but just the team that was the best on that particular day.


I agree.
   70. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 06, 2011 at 08:12 PM (#3953791)
that's the arrogant part


I make no comment on whether my view is arrogant, because I find that inquiry utterly irrelevant. I'm merely saying that the state of affairs I've described is reality.
   71. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: October 06, 2011 at 08:22 PM (#3953806)
I make no comment on whether my view is arrogant, because I find that inquiry utterly irrelevant.

Almost as irrelevant as the question of whether the World Series winner is therefore the "best" team.
   72. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 06, 2011 at 08:42 PM (#3953829)
I don't acknowledge any winner until 1961. The 154-game "league championships" were just hollow exhibitions compared to the legitimate test of excellence.
   73. CrosbyBird Posted: October 07, 2011 at 04:38 AM (#3954810)
#72 wins the thread.
   74. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 07, 2011 at 04:48 AM (#3954820)
The idea of "best that day" is silly in itself. "Played best that day" maybe, although we've all seen games in which the team that played better lost because of chance events. But the same team is best today, yesterday, and tomorrow.
   75. Athletic Supporter gangnam style Posted: October 07, 2011 at 04:59 AM (#3954829)
#54 is exactly correct.

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