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I don't understand why people have trouble accepting that there are both good and bad qualities to a number of people. Curt Schilling included.
I don't understand why people have trouble accepting that there are both good and bad qualities to a number of people. Curt Schilling included.
Who is having trouble understanding that? And yes for someone who routinely advocates this or that and is extremely opinionated he should have said something during his playing days. Speaking out afterwards makes one a moral coward at best.
I'm assuming this quote means "At the time I knew certain guys were gay" and not "I played with 250 teammates and 3% of the population is gay so I must have played with 7 or 8 gay guys".
Having said that, it seems like there are probably a lot of ballplayers that know who is gay among their current or former teammates. Is the time right for some sort of group press conference? I mean, what if these players (EXAMPLE ONLY, NO INSINUATION): Tom Goodwin, Mickey Hatcher, Dave Winfield, Kevin Appier, Mike Schmidt, Jeff Fassero, and Bobby Ayala held a press conference and issued a statement like:
"We are gay, we were gay while we were playing. Some people knew, some didn't. It didn't seem to cause us any trouble. There were 2-3 gay players in every clubhouse and there are 2-3 gay players in every clubhouse today. Get over it."
I wonder if someone could gather up enough people to pull this off. Probably not Schilling, but still. It would certainly require less courage than one person announcing it.
Gods, I hate Curt Schilling as much as the next red blooded American, but this is just completely, terribly wrong.
Teammate: "I'm gay, and I'm not going to hide that from my teammates just to fit in, but I'd prefer that it not be a public aspect of my identity as a player."
Schilling: "MY TEAMMATE X IS GAY!"
No, no, no, no, no.
This is an issue where Schilling is on the side of the angels.
Otherwise known as the "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer Syndrome" or the "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner Syndrome".
Teammate: "I'm gay, and I'm not going to hide that from my teammates just to fit in, but I'd prefer that it not be a public aspect of my identity as a player."
Schilling: "MY TEAMMATE X IS GAY!"
No, no, no, no, no.
This is an issue where Schilling is on the side of the angels.
By not speaking out, didn't he enable discrimination?
If memory serves, Schilling took pretty much a "Republicans buy sneakers, too" (*) attitute toward the issues of the day as a player.
(*) Michael Jordan's famous line when refusing to endorse a candidate in the 1990 North Carolina Senate race between Harvey Gantt, Af-Am, and Jesse Helms, the most unreconstructed racist in American public life.
What was he supposed to say? "I have gay teammates, but I'm totally not going to tell you who?" There seems to be an undercurrent here that Schilling is wrong for not outing his semi-closeted teammate publicly. That is categorically wrong.
Teammate: "I'm gay, and I'm not going to hide that from my teammates just to fit in, but I'd prefer that it not be a public aspect of my identity as a player."
Schilling: "MY TEAMMATE X IS GAY!"
No, no, no, no, no.
This is an issue where Schilling is on the side of the angels.
Except that isn't the only option. Schilling didn't have to out anybody during his playing days but he most certainly could have addressed the issue, he chose not to do that. He also has now chosen to speak out about it and he has also chosen to reveal that he has played alongside gay teammates who apparently still wish it to be kept a secret since nobody has come out from Curt's playing days. Yet here he is opening the door to the kind of stuff you wish him not to do.
That there are almost certainly gays in MLB clubhouses and he supports their civil and human rights?
This is childish.
Also fundamentally wrong. Curt Schilling's ass is *huge.*
Which is what he just said. When was he supposed to say this prior to now? In 1996, back before even Andrew Sullivan was prepping the world for gay rights as we currently conceive them?
No, pretty much the opposite.
Oh, absolutely.
You'd think with more 24 hour news coverage, people's views on certain issues would diversify. I feel like they've narrowed into one bipolar spectrum, with large exceptions, of course.
Schilling is participating in a major political conversation about sports and sports culture in America. This conversation was not being had during his playing years. I find it absurd to hold the fact that he wasn't some sort of change agent against him. The conversation is being had now. He's on the side of the good guys. Keep him away from the tax coffers of Rhode Island and let it be.
Yes in 1996. Or in 2004 or in 2002 or 2005 or 2006 or 2007. But it is good to see Curt Schilling take a stand on things in baseball once he no longer works in baseball.
This conversation was not being had during his playing years.
Hogcock. Unlike Moneyball Bean really did write his book, it came out during Schilling's career and was talked about quite a bit.
Does anyone recall Schilling taking a stand on anything clubhouse or baseball related during his playing days?
Of course. Anyone can say somthing when it isn't controversial. It's not exactly Ali speaking out against Vietnam and the draft, now, is it?
Ok, first, we start a gay league...
I had a gay roommate in college for two years and remember the fear and dread in his face when he told us just before sophomore year room draw. We hugged him, told him it didn't matter as we knew him as a friend and as a fellow student and we moved on. The topic never came up again.
Honestly, the first openly gay player in the Majors will most likely have it a lot worse with the fans than in the clubhouse. Chances are he'll be accepted in the clubhouse pretty well. Sure, there will be some other players who won't like it, but they'll mostly be kept quiet by peer pressure, I would guess.
But fans? Especially opposing fans? They're going to be shouting every homophobic slur in the book at the guy, every single game.
Good lord. Do you equally damn every Negro League player who was not Jackie Robinson? I mean, they weren't historical agents of culture-shifting change, so they're clearly asshats and worth of scorn.
The slow advance of gay rights has made huge strides in the last ten years. The rights movement is now creeping into one of the final bastions of throwback dissent - the alpha male, testosterone driven world of professional sports. Many athletes today are still throw back troglodytes on the subject; see Robert Fick or the San Francisco 49ers. Curt Schilling is coming down as a very famous, near HOF caliber athlete on the side of good and right. And you want to hack his shins because he didn't do something a decade back, and be an activist during his playing days?
With those sort of absurd standards you're going to find very few friends of your cause, man. Good ####### lord.
Otherwise, he really would have no way of knowing how gays hit with runners in scoring position.
But teh spending!!!
Not buying Dave Winfield. Everybody else I could see. Especially Mickey Hatcher.
A great failing of the internet (or more likely, of my ability to negotiate the internet) is that it has not horked up a fabulous photo of Dave Winfield grimacing following a called strike three. His spine is arched backwards, his head is thrown back, his eyes are closed, and he's using both hands to grip his baseball bat, the knob resting against his crotch, at the absolutely perfect lewd angle from his groin. In the real context of the game, it was frustration; but on a purely visual basis, it looks like the definition of ecstasy.
Which still doesn't make it a signifier of "gayness," but I still wanna see that photo again.
Nah. Most people have had civility drilled into them by now. Even if they don't support gay rights they can be civil about it. There will be some bad apples. Security will remove them.
They've gotten pretty good at it. About 10 years ago I remember some A-hole in Camden yards shouting such slurs near the opposing team's bullpen. Yelling at both the relievers and any fan who looked at him funny. He was allowed to continue, don't think security would have done much unless fists came out.
These days, it doesn't happen. You act like that, you may or may not get a warning. Then you get thrown out. I can't speak for every ballpark but I don't think a gay player on the opposing team would have to worry about any more boos in Baltimore than his teammates get.
Come to think about it, they will probably be treated much better than Yunel Escobar. After the suspension last year he was singled out for boos.
I feel like you haven't been to too many ballgames. Once the college-age morons get drunk, civility seems to be more of an abstract, theoretical ideal than a description of actual behavior.
Well, sometimes people know what the right thing to do is but just don't have the courage at the time to act on it. Hopefully, they come around later or get another opportunity to prove themselves and handle things better. It's part of being human. Sometimes we screw up and sometimes we get a shot at redemption. Reminds me of the whole Chris Evert-Martina Navratilova thing. In recent years Evert has admitted that BITD she should have used her celeb status to publicly support Navratilova when Martina came out. Martina lost a lot of endorsement opportunities after she came out; Chris has stated that she was afraid to stand up and be counted as a Martina supporter at the time for fear of being branded right along with Martina.
Kind of like HOF voters and Bert Blyleven. Sometimes it just takes time for people to see the light.
Well...some people will come around...eventually. Some other people, however, are just a**es and aren't ever going to change their minds. The sad thing is there doesn't seem to be any end to the supply of a**es.
Sources at BTF are now reporting that Mickey Hatcher is gay.
The slow advance of gay rights has made huge strides in the last ten years. The rights movement is now creeping into one of the final bastions of throwback dissent - the alpha male, testosterone driven world of professional sports. Many athletes today are still throw back troglodytes on the subject; see Robert Fick or the San Francisco 49ers. Curt Schilling is coming down as a very famous, near HOF caliber athlete on the side of good and right. And you want to hack his shins because he didn't do something a decade back, and be an activist during his playing days?
With those sort of absurd standards you're going to find very few friends of your cause, man. Good ####### lord.
I have no idea why you are taking such an extreme stance on this issue as well as trying to force other people's view into extreme stances. Curt Schilling for almost his entire playing career went along to get along. Then as soon as he no longer has to face his teammates, fellow union members, fans, execs, owners, or press on a daily basis he comes out with his opinions on a variety of baseball issues. That does show a certain level of cowardice on his part. I don't really care what his opinion is on something and what he was commenting on wasn't what I was addressing in my comments. I'm merely noting that Schilling wasn't a strong enough person to voice his opinion when he would actually have to face the music.
Or get naked with a bunch of other dudes. Just saying. If I were in a women's locker room I would be looking at them, even if I were pretending not to.
I'm no fan of Curt Schilling's politics for the most part, but I find this unfair. When was Schilling ever previously asked about gay rights and equality, to the point where he felt compelled to offer a public opinion? (Maybe it has come up before; who knows.) He wasn't a closet sharia-law advocate trying to get on the local school board; he was a ballplayer. His take on gay rights (or any other issue, really) isn't any more meaningful or valuable than yours or mine.
How about after sharing a locker room for a week? A month? 6 months? 3 years?
Schilling would be a top.
I'm no fan of Curt Schilling's politics for the most part, but I find this unfair. When was Schilling ever previously asked about gay rights and equality, to the point where he felt compelled to offer a public opinion? (Maybe it has come up before; who knows.) He wasn't a closet sharia-law advocate trying to get on the local school board; he was a ballplayer. His take on gay rights (or any other issue, really) isn't any more meaningful or valuable than yours or mine
Why wouldn't he have gotten asked? It's been a major issue in baseball for over a decade and he was one of the stars of the game. If his opinion hasn't been reported publicly before now it is in all probability because he did not give his opinion publicly.
Quick trip to Craigslist can fix that.
Can you demonstrate that he was, in fact, asked? Because if not, this whole thing seems silly.
So if women have access to men's locker rooms during shower time, why don't men have access to womens'?
He didn't need to be asked anything to get a public audience for virtually anything he wanted to talk about.
Has it been a "major issue" in baseball? Every now and then there's a two-day story on the issue, I suppose, and we hear about Billy Bean or Glenn Burke (RIP) sometimes, but it's hardly been a dominating issue at the level of, say, steroids or the Hall of Fame or Derek Jeter's contracts.
It's been a major issue in society at large, of course, with the big story being how dramatically the national sentiment has moved in favor of gay equality -- and perhaps Schilling is one of those people who's seen the light in recent years. I wouldn't chide him for not speaking out before -- unless he was asked about it and hid under the bed.
AFAIK, because no one has access to women's lockerrooms. If female reporters were allowed into women's lockerrooms, so too would their male counterparts. But female sports teams and leagues determined that the lockerrooms would be off limits to reporters, and thus everyone is kept out.
MLB, the NFL, NBA and NHL could make the same determination, but for various reasons have determined it's not a fight they want to engage in. Thus, everyone's allowed in.
There's nothing unfair about either of these.
Really, is that your final answer? And you've written that with a straight face?
The same group of naked women? Every day?
I think its crazy that reporters have access to men's lockerrooms. Why is that? Don't most teams have a media room?
I can't wait to take my wife out on Valentine's Day to a nice intimate night at the YMCA locker room.
WTF does that mean? There's absolutely nothing wrong here. Sports teams and leagues set the rules governing access. As long as the rules governing access are equal to both male and female reporters covering that sport, then there's nothing to complain about. The rules aren't based on who gets to be seen naked, but that the working conditions are the same for everyone covering that particular event.
I don't think pro golf or tennis writers get inside the men's lockerrooms at those tournaments. And I know all major college basketball teams don't allow reporters inside the lockerrooms. Are they somehow in violation of something?
How about you and the guys going to a YWCA locker room?
At my health and exercise club, there are separate dress out and locker facilities for men and women. The shower/whirlpool/steam/sauna are separate for men and women. Why is that? Is that justifiable is this new unisex/genderless world?
Yes it is silly to assume that this was the first time Curt Schilling was ever asked this question.
It isn't about just reporters and athletes, though.
Um, yeah,. I dated and lived with the same woman for over 6 years and never passed on an opportunity to see her naked.
I think its crazy that reporters have access to men's lockerrooms. Why is that? Don't most teams have a media room?
Because non-playing writers got something out of being in the same room as their Greek and Roman god-heroes.
"I am a Republican, and thus totally evil and stuff. However, hating me makes Primates feel good about themselves, so there's that."
OK, so you actually have no idea.
It's not remotely silly to assume this. And since you want to condemn him for not responding sooner, the burden's on you to demonstrate that he was, in fact, asked.
This would apply if Len Dykstra or Darren Daulton had come out while playing, but they didn't, so it doesn't. I think it's amusing that the same crowd that felt free to demonize Torii Hunter for being out of touch with "societal norms" is castigating Curt Schilling for going with those same norms. If anyone reading this was alive in 1996, where the f**k were you in supporting the gay people in your life? I hope you all were walking around with PDA to support them even though it might have meant that some people might think that you were *gasp* gay. I was also amused at how quickly Barack Obama was accepted by liberals after his poll and fundraising-driven metamorphosis....er evolution. I guess for liberals the rule is "if you're a liberal you can be as bigoted as you want, but if you're a Republican you're scum even when you say something we supposedly agree with although we only started agreeing with it when it suited us". Do I have that right?
If we take the question on its face, isn't the answer a combination of:
1. All male players.
2. Locker rooms.
3. The silly machoism that exists in the way athletes are taught, how they should interact with their teammates, how they are portrayed to the public, how the media/fans/public see them.
4. The silly way sports are presented and covered and taught and coached, as tests of manliness and will and character and toughness, with notions of protecting one's teammates, and the idea that these are not athletic competitions but are actually battles in a war. (Thus, the terms "warrior" and the like, complete with winners and losers and chokers and clutch players.)
These are portrayed as contests of manliness. So there is no room in that construct for gay players. The media covers these as battles between Men, the coaches and managers preach that to their players, the players buy in... and then everyone acts dumbfounded at the idea that gay players might not feel welcome.
Bottom line: Until the culture is changed, the problem of gay players not feeling welcome will persist.
If Schilling had come out in 1996 in favor of gay rights, McCoy's response would instead be "look at him, stealing the spotlight, trying to inflate his reputation by being all activist. What a turd."
Yeah, guy's obviously a bigot.
"Locker rooms" in current ballparks are basically media rooms. They contain an open area and "lockers" for each player (more just demarcated areas where one can hang clothes than true lockers). Reporters can stand around and/or find the players they want to talk to. But there are all kinds of areas behind the scenes that are not open to the media. It is possible for a player who doesn't want to talk (and isn't expected to that night) to get dressed totally away from the media and leave the stadium without ever going to the "locker room."
Well, he's not wrong.
If you feel that way, then you might want to stop posting 5-10 times in every Schilling thread defending whatever he said this week. I agree with you that in this particular case that Schilling should not be taking any crap, however. I am completely with Schilling on this issue, and I actually find some aspects of Schilling's persona admirable.
And what I meant was that even with a dedicated OTP thread drawing thousands of posts a month, Repoz is still finding stuff like this. I sometimes muse about the ultimate Repoz thread:
"Obama, A-Rod, Malkmus all use taser on Schilling at Gay Gun Owners teachers' union meeting held in Catholic Church while watching Star Wars movies after testing positive for hGH"
and as for schilling
i think he did the right thing BACK THEN not saying anything about having a gay teammate - seeing especially as how the media would go crazy trying to find out WHO and that guy might could still be playing and not want to be outed.
i think it is GREAT that he's saying - i played with gay guys and it wasn't a problem then and not a problem now. what is the big deal?
i'm just sorry he didn't say - some people just need to grow the eff up. and it is great to hear that BITGOD guys on a team knew who the gay guys were/are and it wasn't a problem .i can think of a few guys i bet were gay that curt played with. played BASEBALL with.
as for male reporters in a females' locker room - let's put it this way. if we were twice the size and twice as strong as males, it wouldn't be a problem. most of us are frightened if we're naked and strange males are staring at us. as for looking at a bunch of naked males, well, if it was after the game all i can say is DISGUSTING!!!!! and stinky!!!!! before the game? well, there really IS such a thing as too much penis...
Part of the problem is the stereotype that gay men aren't "manly."
If I only had a nickel for every time I've heard that.
Oh, God, if I only had a nickel. Just one nickel.
Drat, I'm just going to have to live with that burden.
Burden's on me? What a delightful place this is.
In 1996 I was stuck in a small hatchback out in the boonies of Massachusetts with an overweight gay man who had severe flatulence while it was pouring freezing rain to the point where we had to suffer all these problems overnight while a flash flood hit us. Oh and since he was my next door neighbor in the dorm I got to listen to him break his bed one night as he was ####### his partner and help him and his partner extract themselves from that tangled mess. So I think I can safely say I did a lot in support of gay people back in 1996.
I think you need to find a sense of humor.
Yeah, guy's obviously a bigot.
Who is accusing him of that? What team was Curt on in 2011?
My wife said the same thing after going to the Folsom Street Fair (feel free to Google... NSFW).
Also, I think its great Curt feels strongly enough about this issue to talk about it multiple times. I can also see why he dint talk about it as a player for multiple reasons... its hard to be an activist for a very controvesial subject as a player... very few have tried sucessfully.
Found it.
How much money would Jordan need to have, to speak out, I wonder?
People are, by and large, moral cowards. I'm not excusing Schilling (and I'm not going to look into the issue enough to know whether he needs excusing), but he would be no different in this than the great mass of people.
You were somehow going to say, 'Heh, you so ugly on BTF we trick people into looking at your face, then whoop it up'?
A good part of the discrepancy is definitional, or as I like to call it, the "How much dick did you suck" question. Exclusive homosexuality is a different bar to hurdle than the various landmarks on the bisexuality curve.
Something like that. I can honestly say though, that Albright looks exactly like she does in her photos unlike many female celebs.
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