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Friday, February 01, 2013

Pink News: Curt Schilling: ‘Why the hell should being gay matter in professional sport?’

“Shilling”...nice touch.

Curt Shilling, a former pitcher with a career in baseball spanning 20-years, said in a series of tweets, that he did not understand why there was such an issue in professional sports with players coming out.

He also said that he had played alongside gay players, and that it did not matter, and that their performance on the pitch was the important issue.

Mr Shilling said: “I’ve never understood this ‘issue’ with gay players? Who cares? I know I played with some, their sexual orientation never had much to …To do with how they hit with RISP, or pitched in late and close situations, why the hell would what they do in the bedroom ever matter?”

Repoz Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:19 PM | 2051 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: business

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   1. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:25 PM (#4360085)
It's like he's taunting and testing my knee-jerk-disagreement reflex.
   2. SoSH U at work Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:28 PM (#4360087)
I hope he used "the pitch," when Shilling was speaking to the Pink News writer.
   3. BDC Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:39 PM (#4360104)
Dang, Schilling is becoming the Barry Goldwater of baseball.
   4. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4360114)
For all those who don't want to be on Curt's side on an issue just becalm yourself with the knowledge that like the steroid issue this is an issue Curt never talked about during his playing days.
   5. Esoteric Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:52 PM (#4360122)
For all those who don't want to be on Curt's side on an issue just becalm yourself with the knowledge that like the steroid issue this is an issue Curt never talked about during his playing days.
Um...and? Was he supposed to?

I don't understand why people have trouble accepting that there are both good and bad qualities to a number of people. Curt Schilling included.
   6. Blubaldo Jimenez (OMJ) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:54 PM (#4360124)
Well he certainly handled this better than Jered "I like the gays if they hit like Babe Ruth" Weaver.
   7. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:54 PM (#4360125)
WTF. Why is he being so sensible all of a sudden?
   8. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: February 01, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4360128)
Funny bit from TFA:

Curt Shilling’s Major League career spanned from 1988-2007, reports AOL.
   9. Gonfalon B. Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4360137)
Curt Schilling is vast, he is without bottom, he contains all opinions, all rightness, all wrongness, he is all that is and all that will never be.
   10. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:04 PM (#4360138)
Um...and? Was he supposed to?

I don't understand why people have trouble accepting that there are both good and bad qualities to a number of people. Curt Schilling included.


Who is having trouble understanding that? And yes for someone who routinely advocates this or that and is extremely opinionated he should have said something during his playing days. Speaking out afterwards makes one a moral coward at best.
   11. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:08 PM (#4360144)
He also said that he had played alongside gay players, and that it did not matter


I'm assuming this quote means "At the time I knew certain guys were gay" and not "I played with 250 teammates and 3% of the population is gay so I must have played with 7 or 8 gay guys".

Having said that, it seems like there are probably a lot of ballplayers that know who is gay among their current or former teammates. Is the time right for some sort of group press conference? I mean, what if these players (EXAMPLE ONLY, NO INSINUATION): Tom Goodwin, Mickey Hatcher, Dave Winfield, Kevin Appier, Mike Schmidt, Jeff Fassero, and Bobby Ayala held a press conference and issued a statement like:

"We are gay, we were gay while we were playing. Some people knew, some didn't. It didn't seem to cause us any trouble. There were 2-3 gay players in every clubhouse and there are 2-3 gay players in every clubhouse today. Get over it."

I wonder if someone could gather up enough people to pull this off. Probably not Schilling, but still. It would certainly require less courage than one person announcing it.
   12. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:16 PM (#4360159)
Not buying Dave Winfield. Everybody else I could see. Especially Mickey Hatcher.
   13. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4360160)
Who is having trouble understanding that? And yes for someone who routinely advocates this or that and is extremely opinionated he should have said something during his playing days. Speaking out afterwards makes one a moral coward at best.


Gods, I hate Curt Schilling as much as the next red blooded American, but this is just completely, terribly wrong.

Teammate: "I'm gay, and I'm not going to hide that from my teammates just to fit in, but I'd prefer that it not be a public aspect of my identity as a player."

Schilling: "MY TEAMMATE X IS GAY!"

No, no, no, no, no.

This is an issue where Schilling is on the side of the angels.
   14. tfbg9 Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:19 PM (#4360162)
Well he certainly handled this better than Jered "I like the gays if they hit like Babe Ruth" Weaver.


Otherwise known as the "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer Syndrome" or the "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner Syndrome".
   15. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4360165)
Gods, I hate Curt Schilling as much as the next red blooded American, but this is just completely, terribly wrong.

Teammate: "I'm gay, and I'm not going to hide that from my teammates just to fit in, but I'd prefer that it not be a public aspect of my identity as a player."

Schilling: "MY TEAMMATE X IS GAY!"

No, no, no, no, no.

This is an issue where Schilling is on the side of the angels.


By not speaking out, didn't he enable discrimination?

If memory serves, Schilling took pretty much a "Republicans buy sneakers, too" (*) attitute toward the issues of the day as a player.

(*) Michael Jordan's famous line when refusing to endorse a candidate in the 1990 North Carolina Senate race between Harvey Gantt, Af-Am, and Jesse Helms, the most unreconstructed racist in American public life.
   16. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4360167)
By not speaking out, didn't he enable discrimination?


What was he supposed to say? "I have gay teammates, but I'm totally not going to tell you who?" There seems to be an undercurrent here that Schilling is wrong for not outing his semi-closeted teammate publicly. That is categorically wrong.
   17. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:25 PM (#4360169)
It's also functionally incorrect to assume that Schilling's anecdote about playing with gay teammates necessarily happened at the major league level.
   18. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4360170)
Gods, I hate Curt Schilling as much as the next red blooded American, but this is just completely, terribly wrong.

Teammate: "I'm gay, and I'm not going to hide that from my teammates just to fit in, but I'd prefer that it not be a public aspect of my identity as a player."

Schilling: "MY TEAMMATE X IS GAY!"

No, no, no, no, no.

This is an issue where Schilling is on the side of the angels.


Except that isn't the only option. Schilling didn't have to out anybody during his playing days but he most certainly could have addressed the issue, he chose not to do that. He also has now chosen to speak out about it and he has also chosen to reveal that he has played alongside gay teammates who apparently still wish it to be kept a secret since nobody has come out from Curt's playing days. Yet here he is opening the door to the kind of stuff you wish him not to do.
   19. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:28 PM (#4360171)
What was he supposed to say?

That there are almost certainly gays in MLB clubhouses and he supports their civil and human rights?
   20. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4360173)
For all those who don't want to be on Curt's side on an issue


This is childish.

   21. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4360175)
Curt Schilling is vast, he is without bottom


Also fundamentally wrong. Curt Schilling's ass is *huge.*
   22. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4360176)
That there are almost certainly gays in MLB clubhouses and he supports their civil and human rights?


Which is what he just said. When was he supposed to say this prior to now? In 1996, back before even Andrew Sullivan was prepping the world for gay rights as we currently conceive them?
   23. Esoteric Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4360177)
This is childish.
And it basically describes what our politics has been reduced to in recent years.
   24. Danny Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4360179)
If memory serves, Schilling took pretty much a "Republicans buy sneakers, too" (*) attitute toward the issues of the day as a player.

(*) Michael Jordan's famous line when refusing to endorse a candidate in the 1990 North Carolina Senate race between Harvey Gantt, Af-Am, and Jesse Helms, the most unreconstructed racist in American public life.

No, pretty much the opposite.
   25. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:36 PM (#4360181)
And it basically describes what our politics has been reduced to in recent years.


Oh, absolutely.

You'd think with more 24 hour news coverage, people's views on certain issues would diversify. I feel like they've narrowed into one bipolar spectrum, with large exceptions, of course.
   26. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:36 PM (#4360182)
Schilling didn't have to out anybody during his playing days but he most certainly could have addressed the issue, he chose not to do that. He also has now chosen to speak out about it and he has also chosen to reveal that he has played alongside gay teammates who apparently still wish it to be kept a secret since nobody has come out from Curt's playing days. Yet here he is opening the door to the kind of stuff you wish him not to do.


Schilling is participating in a major political conversation about sports and sports culture in America. This conversation was not being had during his playing years. I find it absurd to hold the fact that he wasn't some sort of change agent against him. The conversation is being had now. He's on the side of the good guys. Keep him away from the tax coffers of Rhode Island and let it be.
   27. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4360184)
Which is what he just said. When was he supposed to say this prior to now? In 1996, back before even Andrew Sullivan was prepping the world for gay rights as we currently conceive them?

Yes in 1996. Or in 2004 or in 2002 or 2005 or 2006 or 2007. But it is good to see Curt Schilling take a stand on things in baseball once he no longer works in baseball.

This conversation was not being had during his playing years.

Hogcock. Unlike Moneyball Bean really did write his book, it came out during Schilling's career and was talked about quite a bit.

Does anyone recall Schilling taking a stand on anything clubhouse or baseball related during his playing days?
   28. Lassus Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4360188)
I'm as strict as anyone on this issue, and this is a good thing from Schilling.
   29. dr. scott Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:51 PM (#4360206)
What we need is a Gay Jackie Robinson... maybe we can enlist Mike Trout.
   30. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4360208)
Which is what he just said. When was he supposed to say this prior to now? In 1996, back before even Andrew Sullivan was prepping the world for gay rights as we currently conceive them?


Of course. Anyone can say somthing when it isn't controversial. It's not exactly Ali speaking out against Vietnam and the draft, now, is it?
   31. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:57 PM (#4360215)
What we need is a Gay Jackie Robinson


Ok, first, we start a gay league...
   32. Bob Tufts Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4360228)
With the amount of open homophobia that existed in the 70's, 80's and beyond, I could not see any way that someone would come out at that time and if they did, they would ask their closest friends to whom they confided their status to respect their privacy and not disclose the fact.

I had a gay roommate in college for two years and remember the fear and dread in his face when he told us just before sophomore year room draw. We hugged him, told him it didn't matter as we knew him as a friend and as a fellow student and we moved on. The topic never came up again.
   33. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:13 PM (#4360238)
Good for Schilling. So he's not a saint or trailblazer on the issue, but at least he's not doing that "I don't think they should come out for THEIR own benefit, not because it bothers me" kind of passive-aggressive BS.
   34. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4360241)
What we need is a Gay Jackie Robinson

Honestly, the first openly gay player in the Majors will most likely have it a lot worse with the fans than in the clubhouse. Chances are he'll be accepted in the clubhouse pretty well. Sure, there will be some other players who won't like it, but they'll mostly be kept quiet by peer pressure, I would guess.

But fans? Especially opposing fans? They're going to be shouting every homophobic slur in the book at the guy, every single game.
   35. winnipegwhip Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4360248)
I once worked with someone who was gay. I had more of a problem in that he was a Braves fan - a lifestyle choice I can't condone.
   36. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4360253)
Yes in 1996. Or in 2004 or in 2002 or 2005 or 2006 or 2007. But it is good to see Curt Schilling take a stand on things in baseball once he no longer works in baseball.


Good lord. Do you equally damn every Negro League player who was not Jackie Robinson? I mean, they weren't historical agents of culture-shifting change, so they're clearly asshats and worth of scorn.

The slow advance of gay rights has made huge strides in the last ten years. The rights movement is now creeping into one of the final bastions of throwback dissent - the alpha male, testosterone driven world of professional sports. Many athletes today are still throw back troglodytes on the subject; see Robert Fick or the San Francisco 49ers. Curt Schilling is coming down as a very famous, near HOF caliber athlete on the side of good and right. And you want to hack his shins because he didn't do something a decade back, and be an activist during his playing days?

With those sort of absurd standards you're going to find very few friends of your cause, man. Good ####### lord.
   37. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4360255)

I'm assuming this quote means "At the time I knew certain guys were gay" and not "I played with 250 teammates and 3% of the population is gay so I must have played with 7 or 8 gay guys".


Otherwise, he really would have no way of knowing how gays hit with runners in scoring position.
   38. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4360256)
I don't know why the hell it should matter, Curt. Why are you asking me? Why don't you ask the jackasses in the political party that you support who make bigotry a part of their official national party platform why it matters?
   39. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4360262)
Fact of the matter is, this may not have been Schilling's opinion 10 years ago - a lot of people have individually come around on this stuff. All of this could easily be "upon reflection" rather than "this was my view at the time."
   40. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4360263)
I don't know why the hell it should matter, Curt. Why are you asking me? Why don't you ask the jackasses in the political party that you support who make bigotry a part of their official national party platform why it matters?


But teh spending!!!
   41. Gonfalon B. Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4360266)
Having said that, it seems like there are probably a lot of ballplayers that know who is gay among their current or former teammates. Is the time right for some sort of group press conference? I mean, what if these players (EXAMPLE ONLY, NO INSINUATION): Tom Goodwin, Mickey Hatcher, Dave Winfield, Kevin Appier, Mike Schmidt, Jeff Fassero, and Bobby Ayala held a press conference and issued a statement like: "We are gay, we were gay while we were playing. Some people knew, some didn't. It didn't seem to cause us any trouble. There were 2-3 gay players in every clubhouse and there are 2-3 gay players in every clubhouse today. Get over it."

Not buying Dave Winfield. Everybody else I could see. Especially Mickey Hatcher.


A great failing of the internet (or more likely, of my ability to negotiate the internet) is that it has not horked up a fabulous photo of Dave Winfield grimacing following a called strike three. His spine is arched backwards, his head is thrown back, his eyes are closed, and he's using both hands to grip his baseball bat, the knob resting against his crotch, at the absolutely perfect lewd angle from his groin. In the real context of the game, it was frustration; but on a purely visual basis, it looks like the definition of ecstasy.

Which still doesn't make it a signifier of "gayness," but I still wanna see that photo again.
   42. AROM Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4360268)
But fans? Especially opposing fans? They're going to be shouting every homophobic slur in the book at the guy, every single game.


Nah. Most people have had civility drilled into them by now. Even if they don't support gay rights they can be civil about it. There will be some bad apples. Security will remove them.

They've gotten pretty good at it. About 10 years ago I remember some A-hole in Camden yards shouting such slurs near the opposing team's bullpen. Yelling at both the relievers and any fan who looked at him funny. He was allowed to continue, don't think security would have done much unless fists came out.

These days, it doesn't happen. You act like that, you may or may not get a warning. Then you get thrown out. I can't speak for every ballpark but I don't think a gay player on the opposing team would have to worry about any more boos in Baltimore than his teammates get.

Come to think about it, they will probably be treated much better than Yunel Escobar. After the suspension last year he was singled out for boos.
   43. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4360288)
But fans? Especially opposing fans? They're going to be shouting every homophobic slur in the book at the guy, every single game.

Nah. Most people have had civility drilled into them by now.

I feel like you haven't been to too many ballgames. Once the college-age morons get drunk, civility seems to be more of an abstract, theoretical ideal than a description of actual behavior.
   44. Tripon Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4360291)
Does Curt Shilling advocate the Red Sox' pink hats?
   45. Moeball Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4360299)
Curt Schilling is coming down as a very famous, near HOF caliber athlete on the side of good and right. And you want to hack his shins because he didn't do something a decade back, and be an activist during his playing days?


Well, sometimes people know what the right thing to do is but just don't have the courage at the time to act on it. Hopefully, they come around later or get another opportunity to prove themselves and handle things better. It's part of being human. Sometimes we screw up and sometimes we get a shot at redemption. Reminds me of the whole Chris Evert-Martina Navratilova thing. In recent years Evert has admitted that BITD she should have used her celeb status to publicly support Navratilova when Martina came out. Martina lost a lot of endorsement opportunities after she came out; Chris has stated that she was afraid to stand up and be counted as a Martina supporter at the time for fear of being branded right along with Martina.

Fact of the matter is, this may not have been Schilling's opinion 10 years ago - a lot of people have individually come around on this stuff. All of this could easily be "upon reflection" rather than "this was my view at the time."


Kind of like HOF voters and Bert Blyleven. Sometimes it just takes time for people to see the light.

Nah. Most people have had civility drilled into them by now. Even if they don't support gay rights they can be civil about it. There will be some bad apples. Security will remove them.


Well...some people will come around...eventually. Some other people, however, are just a**es and aren't ever going to change their minds. The sad thing is there doesn't seem to be any end to the supply of a**es.





   46. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4360300)

Having said that, it seems like there are probably a lot of ballplayers that know who is gay among their current or former teammates. Is the time right for some sort of group press conference? I mean, what if these players (EXAMPLE ONLY, NO INSINUATION): Tom Goodwin, Mickey Hatcher, Dave Winfield, Kevin Appier, Mike Schmidt, Jeff Fassero, and Bobby Ayala held a press conference and issued a statement like:


Sources at BTF are now reporting that Mickey Hatcher is gay.
   47. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4360301)
Good lord. Do you equally damn every Negro League player who was not Jackie Robinson? I mean, they weren't historical agents of culture-shifting change, so they're clearly asshats and worth of scorn.

The slow advance of gay rights has made huge strides in the last ten years. The rights movement is now creeping into one of the final bastions of throwback dissent - the alpha male, testosterone driven world of professional sports. Many athletes today are still throw back troglodytes on the subject; see Robert Fick or the San Francisco 49ers. Curt Schilling is coming down as a very famous, near HOF caliber athlete on the side of good and right. And you want to hack his shins because he didn't do something a decade back, and be an activist during his playing days?

With those sort of absurd standards you're going to find very few friends of your cause, man. Good ####### lord.


I have no idea why you are taking such an extreme stance on this issue as well as trying to force other people's view into extreme stances. Curt Schilling for almost his entire playing career went along to get along. Then as soon as he no longer has to face his teammates, fellow union members, fans, execs, owners, or press on a daily basis he comes out with his opinions on a variety of baseball issues. That does show a certain level of cowardice on his part. I don't really care what his opinion is on something and what he was commenting on wasn't what I was addressing in my comments. I'm merely noting that Schilling wasn't a strong enough person to voice his opinion when he would actually have to face the music.
   48. Arbitol Dijaler Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4360311)
Then as soon as he no longer has to face his teammates, fellow union members, fans, execs, owners, or press on a daily basis


Or get naked with a bunch of other dudes. Just saying. If I were in a women's locker room I would be looking at them, even if I were pretending not to.
   49. Tony S Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:15 PM (#4360314)
I'm merely noting that Schilling wasn't a strong enough person to voice his opinion when he would actually have to face the music.


I'm no fan of Curt Schilling's politics for the most part, but I find this unfair. When was Schilling ever previously asked about gay rights and equality, to the point where he felt compelled to offer a public opinion? (Maybe it has come up before; who knows.) He wasn't a closet sharia-law advocate trying to get on the local school board; he was a ballplayer. His take on gay rights (or any other issue, really) isn't any more meaningful or valuable than yours or mine.

   50. Poulanc Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4360320)
Or get naked with a bunch of other dudes. Just saying. If I were in a women's locker room I would be looking at them, even if I were pretending not to.



How about after sharing a locker room for a week? A month? 6 months? 3 years?
   51. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4360327)
Curt Schilling is vast, he is without bottom


Schilling would be a top.
   52. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4360328)
I've been looking at naked women for over 20 years and I've yet to get tired of seeing them naked.
   53. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4360329)
I'm about as liberal as they come, but back in the 90s, when I was a young man, I doubt I would have been all that progressive on gay rights. I'd cut Schilling a bit of slack. The guy by all accounts didn't discriminate against known teammates that were gay, and later in life gives support to the coming out of a gay athlete. Geez, that's more progressive than like 99% of professional athletes.
   54. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4360330)

I'm no fan of Curt Schilling's politics for the most part, but I find this unfair. When was Schilling ever previously asked about gay rights and equality, to the point where he felt compelled to offer a public opinion? (Maybe it has come up before; who knows.) He wasn't a closet sharia-law advocate trying to get on the local school board; he was a ballplayer. His take on gay rights (or any other issue, really) isn't any more meaningful or valuable than yours or mine


Why wouldn't he have gotten asked? It's been a major issue in baseball for over a decade and he was one of the stars of the game. If his opinion hasn't been reported publicly before now it is in all probability because he did not give his opinion publicly.
   55. spike Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4360332)
Curt Schilling is vast, he is without bottom

Quick trip to Craigslist can fix that.
   56. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:33 PM (#4360333)
Why wouldn't he have gotten asked?

Can you demonstrate that he was, in fact, asked? Because if not, this whole thing seems silly.
   57. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4360338)
If I were in a women's locker room I would be looking at them, even if I were pretending not to.

So if women have access to men's locker rooms during shower time, why don't men have access to womens'?

   58. The District Attorney Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4360340)
WTF. Why is he being so sensible all of a sudden?
Massachusetts Senate opening?
   59. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:39 PM (#4360342)
What athlete the prominence of Schilling during his playing days has to be asked a question before his opinion gets reported?

He didn't need to be asked anything to get a public audience for virtually anything he wanted to talk about.
   60. Tony S Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:39 PM (#4360343)
It's been a major issue in baseball for over a decade


Has it been a "major issue" in baseball? Every now and then there's a two-day story on the issue, I suppose, and we hear about Billy Bean or Glenn Burke (RIP) sometimes, but it's hardly been a dominating issue at the level of, say, steroids or the Hall of Fame or Derek Jeter's contracts.

It's been a major issue in society at large, of course, with the big story being how dramatically the national sentiment has moved in favor of gay equality -- and perhaps Schilling is one of those people who's seen the light in recent years. I wouldn't chide him for not speaking out before -- unless he was asked about it and hid under the bed.
   61. Morty Causa Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:41 PM (#4360345)
Does it matter that homosexuals get to be in intimate circumstances with their favored sex while with heterosexuals we try to keep them separate?
   62. SoSH U at work Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:43 PM (#4360346)
So if women have access to men's locker rooms during shower time, why don't men have access to womens'?


AFAIK, because no one has access to women's lockerrooms. If female reporters were allowed into women's lockerrooms, so too would their male counterparts. But female sports teams and leagues determined that the lockerrooms would be off limits to reporters, and thus everyone is kept out.

MLB, the NFL, NBA and NHL could make the same determination, but for various reasons have determined it's not a fight they want to engage in. Thus, everyone's allowed in.

There's nothing unfair about either of these.
   63. Morty Causa Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:44 PM (#4360348)
62:

Really, is that your final answer? And you've written that with a straight face?
   64. Poulanc Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:44 PM (#4360349)
I've been looking at naked women for over 20 years and I've yet to get tired of seeing them naked.


The same group of naked women? Every day?
   65. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4360350)


So if women have access to men's locker rooms during shower time, why don't men have access to womens'?


I think its crazy that reporters have access to men's lockerrooms. Why is that? Don't most teams have a media room?


Does it matter that homosexuals get to be in intimate circumstances with their favored sex while with heterosexuals we try to keep them separate?


I can't wait to take my wife out on Valentine's Day to a nice intimate night at the YMCA locker room.
   66. SoSH U at work Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:49 PM (#4360352)
Really, is that your final answer?


WTF does that mean? There's absolutely nothing wrong here. Sports teams and leagues set the rules governing access. As long as the rules governing access are equal to both male and female reporters covering that sport, then there's nothing to complain about. The rules aren't based on who gets to be seen naked, but that the working conditions are the same for everyone covering that particular event.

I don't think pro golf or tennis writers get inside the men's lockerrooms at those tournaments. And I know all major college basketball teams don't allow reporters inside the lockerrooms. Are they somehow in violation of something?

   67. Morty Causa Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:52 PM (#4360355)
I can't wait to take my wife out on Valentine's Day to a nice intimate night at the YMCA locker room.


How about you and the guys going to a YWCA locker room?

At my health and exercise club, there are separate dress out and locker facilities for men and women. The shower/whirlpool/steam/sauna are separate for men and women. Why is that? Is that justifiable is this new unisex/genderless world?
   68. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4360356)
Can you demonstrate that he was, in fact, asked? Because if not, this whole thing seems silly.

Yes it is silly to assume that this was the first time Curt Schilling was ever asked this question.
   69. Morty Causa Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:54 PM (#4360360)
I think its crazy that reporters have access to men's lockerrooms. Why is that? Don't most teams have a media room?


It isn't about just reporters and athletes, though.
   70. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 05:55 PM (#4360363)
The same group of naked women? Every day?

Um, yeah,. I dated and lived with the same woman for over 6 years and never passed on an opportunity to see her naked.
   71. Lassus Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:02 PM (#4360367)
Vassar had unisex dorm bathrooms/showers (single stall) at least as early as 1986, maybe earlier.


I think its crazy that reporters have access to men's lockerrooms. Why is that? Don't most teams have a media room?

Because non-playing writers got something out of being in the same room as their Greek and Roman god-heroes.
   72. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:05 PM (#4360371)
What was he supposed to say?

"I am a Republican, and thus totally evil and stuff. However, hating me makes Primates feel good about themselves, so there's that."
   73. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:08 PM (#4360373)
Yes it is silly to assume that this was the first time Curt Schilling was ever asked this question.

OK, so you actually have no idea.

It's not remotely silly to assume this. And since you want to condemn him for not responding sooner, the burden's on you to demonstrate that he was, in fact, asked.
   74. Tom (and his broom) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:11 PM (#4360375)
About him being asked about this as a player...my impression is that there is/was an unwritten that baseball beat reporters don't ask about any aspect of a players sex life. Beat reporters in baseball are so close to the team they would be as aware of things as schilling, but if they ever crossed that line they would never interview a player again.

   75. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:22 PM (#4360382)
Well, sometimes people know what the right thing to do is but just don't have the courage at the time to act on it. Hopefully, they come around later or get another opportunity to prove themselves and handle things better. It's part of being human. Sometimes we screw up and sometimes we get a shot at redemption. Reminds me of the whole Chris Evert-Martina Navratilova thing. In recent years Evert has admitted that BITD she should have used her celeb status to publicly support Navratilova when Martina came out. Martina lost a lot of endorsement opportunities after she came out; Chris has stated that she was afraid to stand up and be counted as a Martina supporter at the time for fear of being branded right along with Martina.

This would apply if Len Dykstra or Darren Daulton had come out while playing, but they didn't, so it doesn't. I think it's amusing that the same crowd that felt free to demonize Torii Hunter for being out of touch with "societal norms" is castigating Curt Schilling for going with those same norms. If anyone reading this was alive in 1996, where the f**k were you in supporting the gay people in your life? I hope you all were walking around with PDA to support them even though it might have meant that some people might think that you were *gasp* gay. I was also amused at how quickly Barack Obama was accepted by liberals after his poll and fundraising-driven metamorphosis....er evolution. I guess for liberals the rule is "if you're a liberal you can be as bigoted as you want, but if you're a Republican you're scum even when you say something we supposedly agree with although we only started agreeing with it when it suited us". Do I have that right?
   76. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:42 PM (#4360387)
Mr Shilling said: “I’ve never understood this ‘issue’ with gay players? Who cares? I know I played with some, their sexual orientation never had much to …To do with how they hit with RISP, or pitched in late and close situations, why the hell would what they do in the bedroom ever matter?”


If we take the question on its face, isn't the answer a combination of:

1. All male players.

2. Locker rooms.

3. The silly machoism that exists in the way athletes are taught, how they should interact with their teammates, how they are portrayed to the public, how the media/fans/public see them.

4. The silly way sports are presented and covered and taught and coached, as tests of manliness and will and character and toughness, with notions of protecting one's teammates, and the idea that these are not athletic competitions but are actually battles in a war. (Thus, the terms "warrior" and the like, complete with winners and losers and chokers and clutch players.)

These are portrayed as contests of manliness. So there is no room in that construct for gay players. The media covers these as battles between Men, the coaches and managers preach that to their players, the players buy in... and then everyone acts dumbfounded at the idea that gay players might not feel welcome.

Bottom line: Until the culture is changed, the problem of gay players not feeling welcome will persist.
   77. Esoteric Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:46 PM (#4360389)
This would apply if Len Dykstra or Darren Daulton had come out while playing, but they didn't, so it doesn't. I think it's amusing that the same crowd that felt free to demonize Torii Hunter for being out of touch with "societal norms" is castigating Curt Schilling for going with those same norms.
You have to understand: McCoy explicitly stated at the beginning of this thread that his reaction isn't dictated by reason, but rather by a reflexive need to never come down on the same side as Curt Schilling. For whatever reason, he has designated him as "100% pure villain" and no matter what kind of mental calisthenics are required to paint a statement or action of his in a bad light, he's going to perform them.

If Schilling had come out in 1996 in favor of gay rights, McCoy's response would instead be "look at him, stealing the spotlight, trying to inflate his reputation by being all activist. What a turd."
   78. Esoteric Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:52 PM (#4360392)
Oh, and speaking of which, here's Curt Schilling two years ago, in January 2011, standing up in support of sports reporter Steve Buckley, who had just come out as gay. Schilling calls into the show and tells Buckley "I'm proud of you, Steve," and then jokingly asks "hey, why am I always the last guy to know about any of this stuff?" Buckley points out that the first person to contact him after he went public with his sexual orientation, before anyone else, was Curt Schilling. Schilling then goes on to discuss and lament the oppressive anti-gay environment of most locker rooms, and that Buckley couldn't feel free to be open about who he was. He tells him to ignore the jerks in the locker room who act uncomfortable around him or attack him with anti-gay slurs if he writes something bad about them, and condemns "Bible-thumpers" who take their Christian values too far towards intolerance. This is two years ago.

Yeah, guy's obviously a bigot.
   79. BDC Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:53 PM (#4360393)
I think its crazy that reporters have access to men's lockerrooms. Why is that? Don't most teams have a media room?

"Locker rooms" in current ballparks are basically media rooms. They contain an open area and "lockers" for each player (more just demarcated areas where one can hang clothes than true lockers). Reporters can stand around and/or find the players they want to talk to. But there are all kinds of areas behind the scenes that are not open to the media. It is possible for a player who doesn't want to talk (and isn't expected to that night) to get dressed totally away from the media and leave the stadium without ever going to the "locker room."

   80. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:03 PM (#4360399)
If Schilling had come out in 1996 in favor of gay rights, McCoy's response would instead be "look at him, stealing the spotlight, trying to inflate his reputation by being all activist. What a turd."


Well, he's not wrong.
   81. robinred Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:04 PM (#4360403)
Repoz is a genius.
   82. Esoteric Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:06 PM (#4360405)
Repoz is a genius.
Another way of looking at is that Repoz keeps falling back on cheap crutches like Curt Schilling & politics posts.
   83. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4360408)
Curt did well and should be applauded.
   84. robinred Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:21 PM (#4360410)
Another way of looking at is that Repoz keeps falling back on cheap crutches like Curt Schilling & politics posts.


If you feel that way, then you might want to stop posting 5-10 times in every Schilling thread defending whatever he said this week. I agree with you that in this particular case that Schilling should not be taking any crap, however. I am completely with Schilling on this issue, and I actually find some aspects of Schilling's persona admirable.

And what I meant was that even with a dedicated OTP thread drawing thousands of posts a month, Repoz is still finding stuff like this. I sometimes muse about the ultimate Repoz thread:

"Obama, A-Rod, Malkmus all use taser on Schilling at Gay Gun Owners teachers' union meeting held in Catholic Church while watching Star Wars movies after testing positive for hGH"
   85. base ball chick Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:26 PM (#4360415)
repoz is indeed a genius. my life is more funner for having repoz in it to give me a daily laugh

and as for schilling
i think he did the right thing BACK THEN not saying anything about having a gay teammate - seeing especially as how the media would go crazy trying to find out WHO and that guy might could still be playing and not want to be outed.

i think it is GREAT that he's saying - i played with gay guys and it wasn't a problem then and not a problem now. what is the big deal?

i'm just sorry he didn't say - some people just need to grow the eff up. and it is great to hear that BITGOD guys on a team knew who the gay guys were/are and it wasn't a problem .i can think of a few guys i bet were gay that curt played with. played BASEBALL with.

as for male reporters in a females' locker room - let's put it this way. if we were twice the size and twice as strong as males, it wouldn't be a problem. most of us are frightened if we're naked and strange males are staring at us. as for looking at a bunch of naked males, well, if it was after the game all i can say is DISGUSTING!!!!! and stinky!!!!! before the game? well, there really IS such a thing as too much penis...
   86. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:28 PM (#4360416)
These are portrayed as contests of manliness. So there is no room in that construct for gay players.

Part of the problem is the stereotype that gay men aren't "manly."
   87. Gonfalon B. Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:34 PM (#4360419)
well, there really IS such a thing as too much penis...

If I only had a nickel for every time I've heard that.

Oh, God, if I only had a nickel. Just one nickel.
   88. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:51 PM (#4360431)
It's not remotely silly to assume this. And since you want to condemn him for not responding sooner, the burden's on you to demonstrate that he was, in fact, asked.

Drat, I'm just going to have to live with that burden.

Burden's on me? What a delightful place this is.
   89. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:57 PM (#4360433)
If anyone reading this was alive in 1996, where the f**k were you in supporting the gay people in your life? I hope you all were walking around with PDA to support them even though it might have meant that some people might think that you were *gasp* gay.

In 1996 I was stuck in a small hatchback out in the boonies of Massachusetts with an overweight gay man who had severe flatulence while it was pouring freezing rain to the point where we had to suffer all these problems overnight while a flash flood hit us. Oh and since he was my next door neighbor in the dorm I got to listen to him break his bed one night as he was ####### his partner and help him and his partner extract themselves from that tangled mess. So I think I can safely say I did a lot in support of gay people back in 1996.
   90. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:59 PM (#4360439)
You have to understand: McCoy explicitly stated at the beginning of this thread that his reaction isn't dictated by reason, but rather by a reflexive need to never come down on the same side as Curt Schilling. For whatever reason, he has designated him as "100% pure villain" and no matter what kind of mental calisthenics are required to paint a statement or action of his in a bad light, he's going to perform them.

I think you need to find a sense of humor.

Yeah, guy's obviously a bigot.

Who is accusing him of that? What team was Curt on in 2011?
   91. dr. scott Posted: February 01, 2013 at 08:00 PM (#4360440)
well, there really IS such a thing as too much penis...


My wife said the same thing after going to the Folsom Street Fair (feel free to Google... NSFW).

Also, I think its great Curt feels strongly enough about this issue to talk about it multiple times. I can also see why he dint talk about it as a player for multiple reasons... its hard to be an activist for a very controvesial subject as a player... very few have tried sucessfully.
   92. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: February 01, 2013 at 08:01 PM (#4360441)
Esoteric's link in post 78 is actually a pretty good listen. I'm actually wondering why this wasn't talked about more two years ago.
   93. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: February 01, 2013 at 08:10 PM (#4360444)
Between Manti T'eo, Kwame Harris's arrest, Jered Weaver's comments and now Curt Schilling, we're seeing a very sudden tick in talking openly about accepting gay men playing sports. This is a good thing.
   94. flournoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 08:21 PM (#4360448)
a fabulous photo of Dave Winfield grimacing following a called strike three. His spine is arched backwards, his head is thrown back, his eyes are closed, and he's using both hands to grip his baseball bat, the knob resting against his crotch, at the absolutely perfect lewd angle from his groin. In the real context of the game, it was frustration; but on a purely visual basis, it looks like the definition of ecstasy.


Found it.
   95. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: February 01, 2013 at 09:43 PM (#4360473)
I'm assuming this quote means "At the time I knew certain guys were gay" and not "I played with 250 teammates and 3% of the population is gay so I must have played with 7 or 8 gay guys".
It has been interesting to watch that number fluctuate over the years as politics tussles with statistics. I remember when 10% was being touted, along with numbers like, 1 in 4 women in the U.S. are raped in their lifetimes.

If memory serves, Schilling took pretty much a "Republicans buy sneakers, too" (*) attitute toward the issues of the day as a player.

(*) Michael Jordan's famous line when refusing to endorse a candidate in the 1990 North Carolina Senate race between Harvey Gantt, Af-Am, and Jesse Helms, the most unreconstructed racist in American public life.

How much money would Jordan need to have, to speak out, I wonder?

Schilling didn't have to out anybody during his playing days but he most certainly could have addressed the issue, he chose not to do that.
People are, by and large, moral cowards. I'm not excusing Schilling (and I'm not going to look into the issue enough to know whether he needs excusing), but he would be no different in this than the great mass of people.
   96. puck Posted: February 01, 2013 at 09:46 PM (#4360475)
I just noticed the photo the NBC site used for this article. C'mon. (Note, despite the fact my link does not actually contain the name "albright" in the title, this is NAA.)
   97. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 09:55 PM (#4360480)
Last Saturday I actually encountered Albright and I was very tempted to strike up a conversation wither her about the meme that exists on BTF about her.
   98. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: February 01, 2013 at 10:21 PM (#4360487)
Does it matter that homosexuals get to be in intimate circumstances with their favored sex while with heterosexuals we try to keep them separate?
Matter? What's a reasonable alternative?

Last Saturday I actually encountered Albright and I was very tempted to strike up a conversation wither her about the meme that exists on BTF about her.
You were somehow going to say, 'Heh, you so ugly on BTF we trick people into looking at your face, then whoop it up'?
   99. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 10:23 PM (#4360489)
It has been interesting to watch that number fluctuate over the years as politics tussles with statistics. I remember when 10% was being touted, along with numbers like, 1 in 4 women in the U.S. are raped in their lifetimes.


A good part of the discrepancy is definitional, or as I like to call it, the "How much dick did you suck" question. Exclusive homosexuality is a different bar to hurdle than the various landmarks on the bisexuality curve.
   100. McCoy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 10:32 PM (#4360494)
You were somehow going to say, 'Heh, you so ugly on BTF we trick people into looking at your face, then whoop it up'?

Something like that. I can honestly say though, that Albright looks exactly like she does in her photos unlike many female celebs.
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