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Thursday, November 15, 2018

Pirates acquire three players in trade with Tribe

Pittsburgh sent outfielder Jordan Luplow and infielder Max Moroff to Cleveland in exchange for utility infielder Erik Gonzalez and Minor League pitchers Tahnaj Thomas and Dante Mendoza, both 19-year-old right-handers. The 27-year-old Gonzalez could be part of the Pirates’ Opening Day roster, given their uncertainty at shortstop and second base.

Jim Furtado Posted: November 15, 2018 at 06:43 AM | 25 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: indians, pirates

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   1. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5787760)
I'm not trying to start a political discussion here, but if I am not mistaken, Cleveland is gradually moving away from the use of "Indians" in their logo, uniform, marketing, etc., with the expectation that they will eventually change their team name. Is this accurate?

Whether or not this is accurate, there is obviously heightened awareness and changes in cultural norms that is putting pressure on Cleveland and a handful of other sports franchises to deal with this subject (Washington's NFL team, for example). Should sports journalists be using "Tribe" in their headlines like this?

I've spent a lot of time in Kansas City,and there seems to be relatively little demand to change the Chiefs' name. When I've asked why, the answer is usually 1) the logo is not offensive (look at some of Cleveland's past logos...some of them are stunningly offensive); and 2) "Chiefs" is not a pejorative term like "Redskins" pretty obviously is.
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 10:43 AM (#5787772)
I'm not trying to start a political discussion here, but if I am not mistaken, Cleveland is gradually moving away from the use of "Indians" in their logo, uniform, marketing, etc., with the expectation that they will eventually change their team name. Is this accurate?

I don't think so. They want to retire Chief Wahoo as their logo, but I've heard nothing about getting rid of Indians, or Braves for that matter.

IMHO, there's absolutely no reason to get rid of Indians as a team name. It's the preferred name for most tribes; the Smithsonian museum is "The Museum of the American Indian", because that's what the tribes want.

Naming your team after a group is not an insult to that group, unless you use a pejorative term.
   3. SoSH U at work Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5787792)
Naming your team after a group is not an insult to that group, unless you use a pejorative term.


I wouldn't go that far. I don't think sports teams should be named after unconnected groups of existing people (Spartans, sure. Fighting Irish, sure. Kiryas Joel Jews, fine. Mobile Jews, not so much).

I'm not sure these names have to be changed, if they're more benign than Redskins. But I suspect no future team is going to name themselves Indians.
   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5787798)
I wouldn't go that far. I don't think sports teams should be named after unconnected groups of existing people (Spartans, sure. Fighting Irish, sure. Kiryas Joel Jews, fine. Mobile Jews, not so much).

If you name your team after some group, you must feel some connection. Either direct (e.g. Celtics, Dartmouth Indians) or wanting to emulate some trait of the group (Spartans, Vikings, Braves).

I don't think there's an existing name that falls into the "Mobile Jews" category.
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5787811)
I don't think there's an existing name that falls into the "Mobile Jews" category.


I think Cleveland Indians is kinda close. Then again, I don't like ascribing traits to a group of living people.

But here's a question: Do you have see any future team (pro, college, or even high school) naming themselves any variant on Indians?
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5787818)
But here's a question: Do you have see any future team (pro, college, or even high school) naming themselves any variant on Indians?

I could see it if there was a reasonable connection. I think we're near "peak over-sensitivity". People are going to have to re-learn that getting offended is part of life.
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5787821)
I could see it if there was a reasonable connection.


Other than some college teams, most have never had any connection.

People are going to have to re-learn that getting offended is part of life.


That is the most important lesson.
   8. stig-tossled, hornswoggled gef the typing mongoose Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5787823)
"Mobile Jews"


"Mobile Phones" is preferred.
   9. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5787825)
I’ve long liked Jordan Luplow as a Power Spike candidate—the guy who will come out of nowhere and launch 40 dongs. Perhaps Cleveland felt the same way!
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5787827)
Other than some college teams, most have never had any connection.

The Indians have the Louis Sockalexis connection (first American Indian to play in MLB). The Blackhawks are named after Chief Black Hawk who was from the Illinois area. The Vikings are a reference to the large Scandanavian population in Minnesota.
   11. SoSH U at work Posted: November 15, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5787839)
The Indians have the Louis Sockalexis connection (first American Indian to play in MLB). The Blackhawks are named after Chief Black Hawk who was from the Illinois area.


I'm sorry. I didn't mean simply naming them after a Native American* and pretending that's a real connection.

* To the extent either team's name really is named after those specific Native Americans.
   12. RoyalFlush Posted: November 15, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5787850)
The Chiefs really don't have a Native American context to the origin of their name. It was the nickname of the Mayor (Bartle) of KC when they were able to get Hunt to move the Texans to KC. They chose that and just branded it as Native American-ish.

   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5787854)
I'm sorry. I didn't mean simply naming them after a Native American* and pretending that's a real connection.

Define "real connection". Sockalexis really was a player for the Cleveland Spiders, really was likely the first Indian in MLB, he really died tragically, and they really did change their name to Indians.
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: November 15, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5787868)
Define "real connection".


To Native American people. Tribal teams name themselves Indians, for obvious reasons. Colleges like Florida State have called themselves Seminoles because the tribe lives in the state and the school has an ongoing connection with the tribe. Those are real connections. Naming your team the Indians because one time that Indian guy played in the city* isn't in the same ballpark.

Notre Dame Fighting Irish works because it's the most prominent Catholic university in the country, and most Irish Catholic kids grow up rooting for them/wanting to go there.**


* And, of course, the extent to which the Indians name derives from Sockalexis is not exactly settled.

** Except me, of course. My dad never forgave Ara for playing for the tie.
   15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5787874)
To Native American people. Tribal teams name themselves Indians, for obvious reasons. Colleges like Florida State have called themselves Seminoles because the tribe lives in the state and the school has an ongoing connection with the tribe. Those are real connections. Naming your team the Indians because one time that Indian guy played in the city* isn't in the same ballpark.

Well the Dartmouth Indians certainly had a real connection (starting as a school for Indians) but they caved anyway.

And it wasn't just any Indian guy, he was the first. If the Dodgers had somehow changed their name to reflect their pioneering with Jackie Robinson and other great Negro League stars (Campanella, Newcombe) would that be problematic? Say, they changed to the "Black Bombers".
   16. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: November 15, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5787907)
The Blackhawks are named after Chief Black Hawk who was from the Illinois area.
To be pedantic, the Blackhawks are named after the infantry division nicknamed the "Black Hawk Division" in which the original owner served during WWI. The military unit was named for the chief. (It's also a weird name for a military unit -- named for a guy who opposed the US in 1812 and in his eponymous war, which he brought on through miscalculation, naivete, and terrible intelligence. He has no signal military victories and pretty much lost the wars you'd expect him to lose in about the time you'd expect it to take. He has a cool name, I'll give you that, but that's not a good reason to name your infantry division after him.)
   17. SoSH U at work Posted: November 15, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5787919)
Well the Dartmouth Indians certainly had a real connection (starting as a school for Indians) but they caved anyway.


You can't possibly believe that's a reasonable argument about anything.

And it wasn't just any Indian guy, he was the first. If the Dodgers had somehow changed their name to reflect their pioneering with Jackie Robinson and other great Negro League stars (Campanella, Newcombe) would that be problematic? Say, they changed to the "Black Bombers".


But the club wasn't named Indians to honor the first Native American who bravely broke that barrier. Nor did the club follow up with employing many more Native Americans. So, no, it's not really like the Black Bombers at all.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5787945)
You can't possibly believe that's a reasonable argument about anything.

That Dartmouth had a damn good reason to be called the "Indians"? I think that's a very reasonable argument.

But the club wasn't named Indians to honor the first Native American who bravely broke that barrier. Nor did the club follow up with employing many more Native Americans. So, no, it's not really like the Black Bombers at all.

The club was very likely named in honor of a popular player who broke a barrier and died tragically at 43. I don't see any way that's not a real connection. And again, naming your organization after a group is almost always a compliment to that group, not a slur.
   19. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: November 15, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5787951)
I don't think there's an existing name that falls into the "Mobile Jews" category.


Pretty insensitive with that whole diaspora thing, I'd say.
   20. Yonder Alonso in misguided trousers (cardinal) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 01:46 PM (#5787956)
Couldn't they just go back to Spiders? Or does that 134-loss season still loom too large in the city's memory?*


(*I know, different franchise. But still.)
   21. SoSH U at work Posted: November 15, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5787999)
That Dartmouth had a damn good reason to be called the "Indians"? I think that's a very reasonable argument.


Let me explain.

That Dartmouth, which had a legitimate connection to Indians, still decided to drop the name is not a reasonable argument for a team without a strong connection to Indians keeping it, which is what we were discussing.
   22. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 15, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5788222)
Couldn't they just go back to Spiders?


Or the Naps?
   23. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5788400)
For me “Indians” and “Braves” and “Chiefs” are fine. “Redskins” is most assuredly not nor is Chief Wahoo or the continued Tomahawk Chop at Brave games.
   24. A triple short of the cycle Posted: November 16, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5788465)
When I was in college I wondered if UConn Huskies was supposed to be a pun (on Yukon), but I never bothered to find out.
Team nicknames are best when they sound cool and are not offensive - and make a connection to the team, City, and/or sport.
Baltimore Ravens has to be one of the best. Great animal, Edgar Allen Poe tie-in.
Pittsburgh Steelers. New Orleans Jazz. Utah Jazz - not so much.
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: November 16, 2018 at 02:11 PM (#5788514)
Team nicknames are best when they sound cool and are not offensive -


Agreed. Of the recent baseball nicknames, I really like Diamondbacks. Yes, it's a little long, but it's a) unique, b) connected to the area and, as a bonus, c) has a baseball term tucked in.

Then they ruined it by abbreviating it Dbacks.

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