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Monday, January 15, 2018

Pirates, Giants agree to McCutchen trade

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Jim Furtado Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:11 PM | 95 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: andrew mccutchen, giants, pirates, trade

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   1. Spahn Insane Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:20 PM (#5606806)
Huh. Between this and the Longoria trade, the Giants apparently fancy themselves contenders. Color me skeptical.
   2. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:21 PM (#5606807)
This makes me sad. Andrew McCutchen should have finished his career as a Pirate.
   3. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5606815)
A good friend of mine grew up in Pittsburgh. We talked about going there for a weekend and seeing a game or games at PNC, among other things. We didn't get around to doing it last year...I have a feeling tickets are not going to be a challenge this year.
   4. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5606822)
If TFA is accurate --

No Chris Shaw (with Bell, the Pirates probably not interested anyway) but probably worse, no Beede.... with Arroyo gone in the Longoria deal, there's just not much left I'd be especially interested in. Bryan Reynolds maybe?
   5. Russ Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:40 PM (#5606827)
I am done. Cutch, in the face of long odds, surpassed Barry Bonds and Jason Kendall as my favorite Pirate. My son finally became a baseball fan at age 8 last year, in no small part due to Cutch and Cole. I am not going to encourage him to get over it. I will save my money from the MLB season pass and convince him to double down on hockey and football.

I won’t let him spend 20 years like I did following this team. Bob Nutting can get ######.
   6. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5606830)
MLBTR Sez:

3:22pm: Right-hander Kyle Crick is part of the return for McCutchen, tweets Pavlovic. The 25-year-old was the 49th overall pick in the 2011 draft and ranked among baseball’s top 100 prospects from 2013-15, per various reports. While Crick’s rise through the minors was slowed by control issues, he had a strong year in 2017 after converting to the bullpen on a full-time basis.

In 29 1/3 innings of relief in Triple-A, he posted a 2.76 ERA with 12.0 K/9, 4.0 BB/9 and a 44.3 percent ground-ball rate. That strong run led to Crick’s big league debut with the Giants; in 32 1/3 innings in the Majors, he logged a 3.06 ERA with 7.8 K/9, 4.7 BB/9 and a 37.9 percent ground-ball rate. Crick’s 95.5 mph average fastball velocity and 11 percent swinging-strike rate both pointed to the potential for his big league strikeout rate to catch up to the more impressive level he flashed in Triple-A.


Yikes. He can't be the main piece they're getting back, can he?
   7. asinwreck Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5606831)
If he has to relocate, he went from one great home park to another.
   8. McCoy Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5606833)
Re 3 I was thinking the same thing. Back in my DC days I could have probably got a mega bus ticket for a dollar, a great seat for under 20 bucks and a room for the night for something like 30 bucks. Can’t do that anymore, alas, Atlanta is not really a great bus epicenter.
   9. DL from MN Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5606837)
Man. I'd definitely pick another team before I abandoned baseball for football.
   10. A triple short of the cycle Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5606846)
I'll guess Heliot Ramos is in the trade. The Pirates like toolsy outfielders right?
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5606847)
Man. I'd definitely pick another team before I abandoned baseball for football.

Exactly. Russ, it's not baseball's fault that ownership in Pittsburgh sucks (although I'm sure YR will stop by to tell us how this is all part of the Budshovik regime's plot against the Yankees). Do you really want your son to grow up to be a Football Guy?
   12. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5606848)
If Crick is the big return, ouch.

Yeah, he was once a fairly well thought of prospect - but it's been a good 3-4 years since that. He still hasn't learned to throw strikes, his K rate has actually dropped from interesting to meh, and he's 25.

People can say Cutch - even with the bounceback last year - isn't really all that good anymore, but he's still worth the ~14 mil... and hell, for the Pirates at least - he's probably worth it just to keep PNC from turning into a ghost town. He'd probably also be worth the comp pick and I think the Pirates would have been better served with a ~35ish supplemental pick than Crick.
   13. JJ1986 Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:55 PM (#5606850)
An hour and a half seems like a really long time not to hear which players are heading back. I feel like reporters get most trades within minutes of the initial report.

edit: Bob Nightengale tweeted that it's one mid-range prospect plus Crick. If he's right, that's not much.
   14. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:56 PM (#5606851)
I'll guess Heliot Ramos is in the trade. The Pirates like toolsy outfielders right?


They'd need to PTBNL him though, ala the Trea Turner thing... or did the new CBA get rid of that 1 year provision?
   15. JJ1986 Posted: January 15, 2018 at 04:57 PM (#5606852)
I think the rule is six months or end of the season now. They got rid of it because of Turner.
   16. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 15, 2018 at 05:07 PM (#5606866)
I think the rule is six months or end of the season now. They got rid of it because of Turner.


Ah, OK.... good. It's stupid to have a rule so blatantly ignored if MLB is going to just let it be blatantly ignored.
   17. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 15, 2018 at 05:12 PM (#5606871)
I'm seeing Bryan Reynolds named as the prospect.

That's... still not exactly a great return.
   18. JRVJ Posted: January 15, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5606876)
Pittsburgh is picking 10, 33, 49 and 84 in this year's draft.

And I would bet that in 2019, they will pick at least 5 slots higher.
   19. Steve Treder Posted: January 15, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5606879)
As a Giants' fan, yeah baby.
   20. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 15, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5606890)
As a Giants' fan, yeah baby.


Shouldn't that be something HUMM! baby? I mean, if you're pinning your hopes on yesteryear :-)



   21. Steve Treder Posted: January 15, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5606899)
:-)
   22. Hank Gillette Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5606909)
This makes me sad. Andrew McCutchen should have finished his career as a Pirate.


I don’t think that was ever going to happen, unless McCutchen’s precipitous decline continued to the point that no other team was interested in signing him. That would have been sad too.

I hope the change of venue has a positive effect on his career.
   23. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5606914)
The precipitous decline seems to have halted, as his OPS went up almost a hundred points from 2016 to 2017. Still the third-lowest WAR of his career (2.5 WAR) since he isn't great at CF defense anymore.
   24. PreservedFish Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5606915)
Similar to the Longoria trade, I just don't get it. If the return is so lame, why take a dump on your customers like this?

Cutch is not overpaid and his transformation from elite centerfielder to decent corner outfielder would seem to help keep him affordable in the near future.
   25. A triple short of the cycle Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5606916)
When I moved to North Beach in 1993 there was a billboard at Columbus and Broadway - it was decked out as a Giants ad and said "Humm Baby!" in huge letters.
   26. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:32 PM (#5606918)
My son finally became a baseball fan at age 8 last year, in no small part due to Cutch and Cole. I will save my money from the MLB season pass and convince him to double down on hockey and football.


(a) Is that even legal?

(b) You should have your child taken away.
   27. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5606921)
(c) Detectives believe alcohol was involved.
   28. spycake Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5606922)
He'd probably also be worth the comp pick and I think the Pirates would have been better served with a ~35ish supplemental pick than Crick.


The comp pick system changed in the new CBA too. Cutch would have to sign for $50 mil to net the Pirates a pick after the first round, otherwise it is after the 2nd round (and after the competitive balance rounds). And either way, the Pirates would have to extend an ~$18 mil qualifying offer and Cutch would have to reject it.
   29. Batman Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:44 PM (#5606923)
(d) Option J

(No. Not really an option.)
   30. PreservedFish Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:53 PM (#5606927)
The Pirates are paying $10M each to Cervelli and Harrison, in addition to $5M to several scrubs like Jordy Mercer and Daniel Hudson and Sean Rodriguez. Can anyone explain why you trade McCutchen and not some combination of these losers?
   31. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5606928)
Russ, it's not baseball's fault that ownership in Pittsburgh sucks (although I'm sure YR will stop by to tell us how this is all part of the Budshovik regime's plot against the Yankees).


It’s more of a happy side effect. That endless torrent of unearned free money means ownerships have decoupled profits from on-field performance. If the team plays well, great! If the team plays poorly, great! Either way you aren’t going to be stuck wearing last year’s Rolex like a common hobo. So you end up like Loria’s Marlins, the model franchise that had one of the highest-paid front offices in all of baseball while crying poor and dismissing their fanbase at every opportunity.
   32. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:09 PM (#5606932)
Maybe (probably?) I shouldn't open this can o'worms, but I'm curious: I'll concede that revenue sharing raises the moral hazard that you mention. But what is your preferred solution? Just letting the Yankees/Dodgers/Red Sox etc. have revenues (and payrolls) that are however exponentially greater than the smaller-market teams without sharing any? And if so - even setting aside the principles that flow from the fact that two teams have to show up to have any games to generate revenue in the first place - as a practical matter, how do you propose to have a functional league?

Apologies if I've missed threads where this has been discussed ad nauseam - I've seen a lot of your tilting at this particular windmill, but I don't think I've seen anything w/r/t the above.
   33. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5606936)
Maybe (probably?) I shouldn't open this can o'worms, but I'm curious: I'll concede that revenue sharing raises the moral hazard that you mention. But what is your preferred solution?

Require all shared revenue to be spent on MLB payroll. i.e. if a team, let's call them the Marlins, gets $70M per year from central revenue, MLBAM, and revenue sharing, they must maintain a $70M payroll, or their non-earned revenue is reduced dollar for dollar by the shortfall.

The purpose of shared revenue is to allow small market teams to compete, not to let their owners pocket profits while running out a crappy team.
   34. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5606939)
Isn't that more likely just to lead to bad/mediocre teams throwing dumb contracts at a few mediocre veterans because they have to, than to make a difference in teams being more competitive more often?
   35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5606941)
Isn't that more likely just to lead to bad/mediocre teams throwing dumb contracts at a few mediocre veterans because they have to, than to make a difference in teams being more competitive more often?

If you have to spend the money, why wouldn't you try to spend it as efficiently as possible?
   36. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5606942)
Saw on Twitter that this moves SF within $1M of the luxury tax. At $14.750M, Cutch will be the 7th highest paid player - and that excludes Sandoval, who's paid by the Bosox!

Buster Posey $22,177,778
Johnny Cueto $21,000,000
Mark Melancon $20,000,000
Jeff Samardzija $19,800,000
Pablo Sandoval $18,600,000
Hunter Pence $18,500,000
Brandon Belt $17,200,000
Brandon Crawford $15,200,000
   37. JJ1986 Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:28 PM (#5606943)
Mark Melancon $20,000,000
My god.
   38. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:28 PM (#5606945)
It’s more of a happy side effect. That endless torrent of unearned free money means ownerships have decoupled profits from on-field performance. If the team plays well, great! If the team plays poorly, great! Either way you aren’t going to be stuck wearing last year’s Rolex like a common hobo. So you end up like Loria’s Marlins, the model franchise that had one of the highest-paid front offices in all of baseball while crying poor and dismissing their fanbase at every opportunity.


Not one use of "Budshovism." Who are you, & what have you done with YR?
   39. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:28 PM (#5606946)
If you have to spend the money, why wouldn't you try to spend it as efficiently as possible?

You would try, but you would still be constrained by the players that want to play for you. It would probably go some ways toward preventing a Stanton type situation, where they trade away a player they developed and signed to a big $ contract, but those situations aren't that common.
   40. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:30 PM (#5606947)
If you have to spend the money, why wouldn't you try to spend it as efficiently as possible?
You assume the best way to spend the money is on MLB talent, when it might be better to spend it in other ways - better MiLB facilities (or even salaries), better Central American academies, etc.
   41. TDF didn't lie, he just didn't remember Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:34 PM (#5606948)
It would probably go some ways toward preventing a Stanton type situation, where they trade away a player they developed and signed to a big $ contract, but those situations aren't that common.
Probably not. The "Stanton situation" was unique - Loria crafted that contract with the express intent of making it too expensive for a team with Miami's revenues after the 3rd year.

Salary floors never work the way they're sold; you always end up with crappy vets getting overpaid so a bad team is within the rules.
   42. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:42 PM (#5606955)
According to Rosenthal, the Pirates are kicking in $2.5M to help cover McCutchen's contract.

Giants: Crick, Reynolds, $500k in international bonus budget
Pirates: McCutchen, $2.5M

Hard to believe that this was the best that the Pirates could do, although quite happy as a Giants fan. Crick and Reynolds both have potential, but a lot is going to have to break right for them to have significant MLB careers. Keeping Ramos this off-season was quite an accomplishment considering that they added two former All Stars via separate trades.
   43. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:47 PM (#5606959)
This trade is... really dumbfounding. Even just one year of McCutchen has to be worth more than THAT, doesn't it?
   44. Khrushin it bro Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5606962)
Seems similar to the return for JD Martinez at the trade deadline last year.
   45. -- Posted: January 15, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5606966)
Impossible not to like and root for Cutch, but the thought of him patrolling that centerfield is ... is ... is ... well, it's not promising. In fact, I don't think it's actually going to happen.
   46. Posada Posse Posted: January 15, 2018 at 08:10 PM (#5606973)
My impression from looking at last year's stats was that the Giants needed a good DEFENSIVE centerfielder more than anything else (Span had a terrible year according to the metrics). This doesn't help them in that regard. Thumbs down for the Giants IMO (although admittedly they didn't give up that much in return).
   47. Walt Davis Posted: January 15, 2018 at 08:12 PM (#5606977)
The Pirates are paying $10M each to Cervelli and Harrison, in addition to $5M to several scrubs like Jordy Mercer and Daniel Hudson and Sean Rodriguez. Can anyone explain why you trade McCutchen and not some combination of these losers?

Worse, Mercer could have been non-tendered this offseason. The other guys at least are multi-year deals signed when the Bucs were trying to compete. That said, I think they think this is a "rebuild" more than a "salary dump." In a rebuild scenario, there's no harm in keeping Mercer at that price; if you were just trying to minimize payroll, then he'd have been non-tendered. Not to deny they seem to be doing a crappy job on the rebuild part.

The relievers they've picked up have very live arms -- makes you wonder if they think that is the path to mid-market success.

My god.

Not that it really makes things much better, but Melancon was signed for 4/$62. I'm not sure where that $20 M figure is coming from but, according to Cots, it's wrong. (Note Cots isn't specific about when the $8 M deferred from the $20 M (!) signing bonus is paid but even if it's all paid this year, that's just $18.) Similarly but more accurately, Shark was signed for 5/$90 but is being paid $21 M in 2018 but, for lux tax purpsoes, he'll be priced at $18. Hunter Pence at 5/$90 might not have been the brightest idea (7 WAR so far with a year to go so not a major disaster either).

Note, Melancon can opt out after this year. Giants owe 2/$28 if he stays. Last year he wasn't very good but, as a closer, a repeat of anything from 2013-16 will probably get him more than 2/$28.


   48. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: January 15, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5606979)
   49. Steve Treder Posted: January 15, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5606983)
My impression from looking at last year's stats was that the Giants needed a good DEFENSIVE centerfielder more than anything else (Span had a terrible year according to the metrics). This doesn't help them in that regard. Thumbs down for the Giants IMO (although admittedly they didn't give up that much in return).

According to my eyes, Span had every bit as terrible a year as the metrics suggests.

The Giants' problems were multiple: yes, they needed (and still need) a good defensive center fielder. But they also needed power, and they needed a third baseman, and they needed corner outfielders. Longoria and McCutchen fill holes that badly needed filling.
   50. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 08:22 PM (#5606984)
McCutchen's bat bounced back last year, but he's not really a center fielder anymore. The Giants gave up very little, but I hope they don't expect to play him out there all the time.
   51. Tin Angel Posted: January 15, 2018 at 08:53 PM (#5606995)
My impression from looking at last year's stats was that the Giants needed a good DEFENSIVE centerfielder more than anything else (Span had a terrible year according to the metrics). This doesn't help them in that regard. Thumbs down for the Giants IMO (although admittedly they didn't give up that much in return).


They are going to play him in left.
   52. Internet Commenter Posted: January 15, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5606998)
Maybe (probably?) I shouldn't open this can o'worms, but I'm curious: I'll concede that revenue sharing raises the moral hazard that you mention. But what is your preferred solution? Just letting the Yankees/Dodgers/Red Sox etc. have revenues (and payrolls) that are however exponentially greater than the smaller-market teams without sharing any? And if so - even setting aside the principles that flow from the fact that two teams have to show up to have any games to generate revenue in the first place - as a practical matter, how do you propose to have a functional league?

This depends on your goal for the functional league. I think the current system is calibrated to maximize league revenues by prioritizing the competitiveness of the largest markets. Personally, I'd prefer to see a league where the playing field was as structurally even as possible. I imagine that would require a salary cap, more aggressive revenue extraction from the biggest markets for redistribution, and a strict set of regulations to ensure that money can only be applied to certain baseball expenses. In order to make that fair to the players, they should receive a fixed percentage of league revenue. If a team tried to pull a Loria, the players signed for trivial amounts would receive a huge windfall of revenue sharing after the season was concluded and the numbers were final. Tanking should also be outlawed in the rules. It impacts the integrity of the game and should carry lifetime bans for executives and owners that engage in it.
   53. Sunday silence Posted: January 15, 2018 at 09:36 PM (#5607005)
from the stats I recall, Pence is really bad in RF and it seems to me McCutheon can no longer play CF. Wasnt he the worst Of'er in the league in 2016?or was it 2017? Going from memory so...
   54. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5607008)
Personally, I'd prefer to see a league where the playing field was as structurally even as possible. I imagine that would require a salary cap, more aggressive revenue extraction from the biggest markets for redistribution, and a strict set of regulations to ensure that money can only be applied to certain baseball expenses


Let’s eschew your tired old Marxist approach and try to think creatively instead. Here are some options:

1) Instead of individual franchises, every team is owned by MLB Inc. Corporate executives determine which players are assigned to which franchise based on their preferred outcomes for that team.

2) Instead of a salary cap, institute a talent cap. A team is only allowed to have a maximum of 3 players with 4+ WAR. At the end of the season, teams with more than 3 players posting 4+ WAR can protect only one of them - the rest get put into a lottery with the worst teams picking players from that pool.

3) Similarly, Instead of a salary cap, institute a success cap. The team with the best record each year, and the team that wins the World Series each year, have to put all 40 man roster players still under team control in a lottery, with the worst teams again selecting from that pool. A team can lose a maximum of, oh, let’s say 3 players in any one year.

4) Each franchise puts $10 million in a pool at the beginning of the season. At the end of the season, one owner from each of the ten worst franchises will get to plead their case for why they need the money more than anyone else to a live audience of baseball fans during the World Series. The wining loser as determined by fan vote would get 50% of the jackpot to improve their team. A runner-up gets 25%, and the remaining 25% goes to pay for free parking for a year for the worst franchise in order to encourage fan enthusiasm.

I could keep going, the possibilities are so varied and more sophisticated than the transparent “free money for me forever and also for my daughter Wendy” approach favored by the slow-witted Budshoviks whose sole creative focus is trying to deprive players of money.
   55. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: January 15, 2018 at 09:45 PM (#5607011)
1) Instead of individual franchises, every team is owned by MLB Inc. Corporate executives determine which players are assigned to which franchise based on their preferred outcomes for that team.


This is not quite the WWE, but it's damn close.

Dissatisfied as I am with baseball right now, that would certainly be the end of me paying any attention to it--and for once, I don't think I'd be alone.
   56. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 15, 2018 at 09:46 PM (#5607012)
Wasnt he the worst Of'er in the league in 2016?or was it 2017?

No, that was Span. McCutchen's only below average, not historically terrible.
   57. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5607014)
1) Instead of individual franchises, every team is owned by MLB Inc. Corporate executives determine which players are assigned to which franchise based on their preferred outcomes for that team.

This is not quite the WWE, but it's damn close


It isn’t much different than creating new rules to hamstring one specific team, and then let their primary competitor run an investigation into that team’s PED use (and their own, wink wink). The WWE used to do their own PED monitoring too, it was helpful to keep the right people on top and keep the troublemakers from getting too mouthy.
   58. The Duke Posted: January 15, 2018 at 10:04 PM (#5607017)
We in St. Louis are belly-aching about the team only spending 140 million this year on payroll. The pirates are now down to 80 and their team isn’t awful. I’m concerned that the major leagues have done a good job of capping salaries but a terrible job of making teams spend money. The league is now quickly becoming haves and have nots and that can’t be good for the sport - it could be a phase but I don’t think so
   59. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 15, 2018 at 10:10 PM (#5607023)
Require all shared revenue to be spent on MLB payroll. i.e. if a team, let's call them the Marlins, gets $70M per year from central revenue, MLBAM, and revenue sharing, they must maintain a $70M payroll, or their non-earned revenue is reduced dollar for dollar by the shortfall.

The purpose of shared revenue is to allow small market teams to compete, not to let their owners pocket profits while running out a crappy team.


I hate the idea of a hard salary floor.

I could get behind an inverse luxury cap applied to a team that falls below a certain salary threshold, but just cut a check to the MLBPA... and if the MLBPA wants ideas on how to spend it, I'd suggest just spreading the kitty among the apprentice pool (i.e., minor leaguers).
   60. Walt Davis Posted: January 15, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5607026)
What YR wants is the dissolution of MLB as we know it. The Yanks, Dodger, Cubs, Red Sox, Phils, Giants, Angels and one of Mets, Angels, Toronto, Houston, Texas would form their own league where each team could spend as much as it wants, attracting the 200 best players in baseball. OK, if the Mets are involved, probably no more than the 180 best players in baseball.

However, playing 7 other rich teams all the time could create a losing record. Instead, you'd play the other 7 rich teams about 12 times a year then schedule 78 "out of conference" games against AAA-quality teams from Tampa, Milwaukee, etc., with all 78 games taking place at Yankee Stadium (and Wrigley Field, etc.).

At the end of the year, you have a conference tournament featuring all 8 teams. Then you take the conference champ, the revenue champ and the next 2 best teams from the 7 plus a couple of the second division franchises and have another tournament with the conference champ and the revenue champ (if they aren't the same) getting a first-round bye.

Then you give the Yanks a 3 games to zero edge in their first round series with the 4 (if necessary) remaining games played in Yankee Stadium.

Then, if the Yanks somehow overcome all of these disadvantages to make it to the finals, you give them a 3 games to zero edge in that series too with as many games as necessary scheduled for Yankee Stadium until they win a 4th at which point they are declared champs.
   61. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 15, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5607029)
Someone sounds bitter. Someone named Walt. Walt Davis. Bitter Walt Davis. That guy.
   62. Walt Davis Posted: January 15, 2018 at 11:23 PM (#5607057)
Bitter? Huh? My Cubs are right there in the rich guys division. That set-up would be fine with me.

"Bitter" is complaining at least three times a day that the Yanks' mostly unearned financial advantage is slightly curtailed such that they usually out-spend the other rich teams by only $30 M a year instead of $100 M a year. "Disingenuous" is pretending to care about players' salaries.
   63. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 15, 2018 at 11:31 PM (#5607058)
YR- so, does 54 mean you don't have an answer for my question in 32?
   64. PreservedFish Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:30 AM (#5607068)
You punched him right in his shtick.
   65. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 07:25 AM (#5607083)
Bitter? Huh? My Cubs are right there in the rich guys division


Wait...so you had this supposedly enormous structural advantage that demands massive redistribution...and yet you still couldn’t win anything in a century? How could this be?

Bitter" is complaining at least three times a day that the Yanks' mostly unearned financial advantage is slightly curtailed such that they usually out-spend the other rich teams by only $30 M a year instead of $100 M a year.


“Mostly unearned” because the exact same structural advantages turned the Cubs into a team synonymous with fans getting drunk by the 5th inning winning ballgames? How much time have you spent bemoaning the unfairness of it all, those mean old Mets dominating the game with their mostly unearned advantages?

"Disingenuous" is pretending to care about players' salaries.


Dishonest is...you. The players have only a few years to cash in but you and your bitter, sad-sack loser ilk have gleefully endorse one salary-suppressing scam after the other for 20 years because you were duped into thinking it would be an additional hinderance to popular, successful teams like the New York Yankees. “The Yankees paid a player a market rate” is a crime against baseball to your type but “every single amateur player will have to sacrifice potentially their only payday” is an afterthought. You cheered for a system that the league now administers in secret because the actual numbers became an embarrassment. It’s transparently dishonest rubes like you that empower hucksters like Jeff Loria, to the detriment of players, fans, and baseball at large, but that’s fine as long as you get to feel like you’re screwing The Yankees. Disingenuous indeed.
   66. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: January 16, 2018 at 07:25 AM (#5607084)
My son finally became a baseball fan at age 8 last year, in no small part due to Cutch and Cole. I will save my money from the MLB season pass and convince him to double down on hockey and football.


(a) Is that even legal?

(b) You should have your child taken away.


Oh, man...you only missed the hat trick by not hearing that Alfonso Soriano was available to replace Cutch.
   67. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 07:29 AM (#5607086)
YR- so, does 54 mean you don't have an answer for my question in 32?


Que? Didn’t I offer 4 answers in #54? I have more of course, because I’m a solutions-oriented kinda guy, but explain to me why you appear to have totally ignored my answers and accuse me of not doing something I clearly did.
   68. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 16, 2018 at 08:15 AM (#5607096)
OK, if the Mets are involved, probably no more than the 180 best players in baseball.


Hey, why is it that the Mets are always the butt of everyone's jokes, huh? Whatsat about, huh?

Oh, right. They're the Mets. Never mind.
   69. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 16, 2018 at 08:35 AM (#5607102)
Maybe (probably?) I shouldn't open this can o'worms

Yeah, turns out I was right in the first place. Duly noted.
   70. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 08:51 AM (#5607106)
The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out
The worms play pinochle on your snout

I guess 4 discrete answers aren't enough. "When I ask you for an alternative I demand no less than ten!"
   71. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 16, 2018 at 09:01 AM (#5607117)
Yes, you've answered my question. Thanks.
   72. Random Transaction Generator Posted: January 16, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5607134)
That video in #48 is gut-wrenching when you think how they must feel right now.
   73. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 09:33 AM (#5607136)
#54 is ridiculous and worse, stupid. YR is insane on this topic and it is best to pat his head and let him know what a good boy he is, while the rest of the world acknowledges the reality of the situation.

Oh yeah - Good boy YR. Good boy.
   74. Nasty Nate Posted: January 16, 2018 at 10:03 AM (#5607148)
I shouldn't open this can o'worms
can o' troll
   75. Rally Posted: January 16, 2018 at 10:07 AM (#5607153)
Then you give the Yanks a 3 games to zero edge in their first round series with the 4 (if necessary) remaining games played in Yankee Stadium.


Still not enough if they have to play Boston. Maybe spot them a 12 run lead and eject the first 5 Sox hitters who so much as look at you the wrong way after a called strike?
   76. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: January 16, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5607258)
How the hell do a thread about a trade between the Giants and Pirates turn into a pissing match between a Cubs and Yankees fan, with some bellyaching with respect to the Mets as well.
   77. Endless Trash Posted: January 16, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5607261)
This is tragic. Baseball is in rough shape right now.
   78. Zonk's Timely Epoch Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5607262)
How the hell do a thread about a trade between the Giants and Pirates turn into a pissing match between a Cubs and Yankees fan, with some bellyaching with respect to the Mets as well.


Because with the Evil Empire again on the rise, it is critical that all true baseball fans support the game's last, best hope in preventing them from again covering the landscape in a shroud of darkness.

Anybody not supporting, at minimum, generous lend-lease agreements to Wrigley will have only themselves to blame when we are all crushed under the jackboot of Yankeedom.
   79. jmurph Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5607274)
How the hell do a thread about a trade between the Giants and Pirates turn into a pissing match between a Cubs and Yankees fan, with some bellyaching with respect to the Mets as well.

This is about as "both sides do it!" as you're going to get in a baseball thread. Come on, man.
   80. DanG Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:30 PM (#5607289)
Is McCutchen the Pirate's best CF in franchise history?

Player           WARWAAOPSRfield   PA From   To
Max Carey        52.5 23.2  111   79.0 9654 1910 1926
Andrew McCutchen 40.0 22.4  136  
-71.0 5829 2009 2017
Tommy Leach      36.4 14.6  109   61.0 6646 1900 1918
Andy Van Slyke   30.9 16.8  124    5.9 4441 1987 1994
Al Oliver        27.1  9.8  119   
-3.2 5424 1968 1977
Lloyd Waner      24.1 
-0.2  100   22.0 7774 1927 1945
Ginger Beaumont  22.2  7.7  124   
-9.0 4452 1899 1906
Bill Virdon      18.2 
-3.8   89   48.0 5856 1956 1968
Matty Alou       16.7  5.8  115  
-39.1 3224 1966 1970
Jake Stenzel     15.1  8.5  147  
-17.0 1987 1892 1896 
   81. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5607298)
Is McCutchen the Pirate's best CF in franchise history?

Looks like the answer depends on how reliable you think fielding estimates from the early 20th century are. So, I'd say he probably is?
   82. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5607301)
#54 is ridiculous and worse, stupid.


Get a haircut, hippie. You Budshoviks bought the phony argument about "parity" hook, line, and sinker and when it turned into a massive money transfer to Bud's daughter and Jeff Loria you just shrug. If you want to prevent teams from being too successful for too long maybe promising endless streams of free money to owners in perpetuity while artificially suppressing player compensation isn't the best way to go about it.

No no no, let's not do anything so rash as to reconsider your suppositions. That would be madness.
   83. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: January 16, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5607346)
No no no, let's not do anything so rash as to reconsider your suppositions. That would be madness.


Good boy. Have a cookie.
   84. Walt Davis Posted: January 16, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5607535)
Wait...so you had this supposedly enormous structural advantage that demands massive redistribution...and yet you still couldn’t win anything in a century? How could this be?

Mostly a combination of cheapskate ownership, incompetent front offices and (in the last 40 years or so) a disconnect between attendance and performance.

That's why the Yanks have earned some of their financial advantage. But most of it comes from being the long-standing, traditional team in a metro market of 20 million people.

players have only a few years to cash in but you and your bitter, sad-sack loser ilk have gleefully endorse one salary-suppressing scam after the other for 20 years because you were duped into thinking it would be an additional hinderance to popular, successful teams like the New York Yankees.

Says a man who's clearly ignored my posts on the subject over the last 20 years.

I oppose the luxury tax, especially as currently implemented. The draft has been an effective method for increasing competitive balance (whether I like it or not) but I have never supported slot limits. I am always highly critical of how minor-leaguers are treated and how little they are paid. I support a huge increase in MLB minimum. I have been highly critical of the MLBPA of the last couple of rounds of negotiation, most especially for allowing the lux tax to become an effective salary cap, not raising league min salaries very much and for what appear to be declining revenue proportions going to player salaries. There's not a single instance where I have said I would rather have seen money end up in an owners' pocket than a player's. I have regularly raised the question of exactly what is MLB doing with all this money it raises through the lux tax and especially the international signing penalties.

Moreover I have speculated that the current agreement among owners has to eventually collapse because the big markets are eventually going to stop tolerating giving away so much money both through sharing, taxes and potentially reduced revenue from not being able to build the best teams that they want. Obviously the Yankees need other teams to play but they don't need 29 other teams to play and, at some stressful time when bsaeball's revenues are constrained, a reckoning may come. Of course as long as the Marlins can sell for $1.2 B, the Yankees and Cubs and Red Sox and Dodgers are not going to rock the boat.

Why I've even gone so far as to occasionally express support for your claim that the lux tax was a Yankees tax. (it is now a salary cap.)

But in your blindered world where you can't even enjoy the miracle that is Aaron Judge because you can't see past your anger that your team "can't" sign Yu Darvish without trading away wasted payroll, you can only read every post as a twisted attack on the Yanks and think that anybody who posts on topics outside your obsession is some sort of Budhovik out to oppress your disadvantaged, pinstriped boys.

But please do at least do us the favor of dropping the "it's about the players" schtick. You don't give a flying #### about players' salaries and everybody here knows it.
   85. zenbitz Posted: January 16, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5607636)
Huh. Between this and the Longoria trade, the Giants apparently fancy themselves contenders. Color me skeptical.


They don't really have much better options other than assuming they might as well try. What sort of rebuild is going to get them a new Posey / Bumgarner / Cueto / Crawford / Belt? They are not likely to get anything beyond salary relief in trade. May as well roll the dice.
   86. Hank Gillette Posted: January 16, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5607670)
This trade is... really dumbfounding. Even just one year of McCutchen has to be worth more than THAT, doesn't it?


Depends on which version of McCutchen you get. What if last year was a dead cat bounce?
   87. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: January 16, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5607675)
What sort of rebuild is going to get them a new Posey / Bumgarner / Cueto / Crawford / Belt? They are not likely to get anything beyond salary relief in trade. May as well roll the dice.


Agreed. You add Cutch and Longoria into the mix and hope you get 6-8 WAR out of the 2 combined and outside of 2B, most of the infield is set. I can't even name who played LF so I assume that's where Cutch is going to play and add a bit of value. Then need some innings eaters and of course it is 2018. Maybe missing out on 2016 has them ready to roll!
   88. Posada Posse Posted: January 16, 2018 at 08:52 PM (#5607733)
Cutch will be playing right field apparently.
   89. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 17, 2018 at 04:02 PM (#5608319)
The 2017 plan for LF was a Jarrett Parker/Mac Williamson platoon. The reality ended up being Parker, Gorkys Hernandez, Austin Slater, and Eduardo Nunez or Brandon Belt playing out of position. It was a horror show. Neither other OF position was much better.

This year Pence is moving to LF with Cutch playing RF. The incumbent in CF is Hernandez, who does not have a MLB quality bat. The Giants are choosing from a FA group including Jarrod Dyson, Jon Jay, Cameron Maybin, and maybe Austin Jackson, and are said to be most interested in Dyson. Some people think Steven Duggar can handle CF and might be ready as soon as later this year. I'm skeptical his D will hold up there. The best player they traded in the Cutch deal, Bryan Reynolds, was their next best internal bet at the position but almost certainly tops out as a tweener in the bigs.

Apologies if I've missed a more recent thread on this topic.
   90. Nasty Nate Posted: January 17, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5608333)
The incumbent in CF is Hernandez, who does not have a MLB quality bat. The Giants are choosing from a FA group including Jarrod Dyson, Jon Jay, Cameron Maybin, and maybe Austin Jackson, and are said to be most interested in Dyson.
Do they have interest in Lorenzo Cain?
   91. Lassus Posted: January 17, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5608340)
(a) Is that even legal?
(b) You should have your child taken away.
Oh, man...you only missed the hat trick by not hearing that Alfonso Soriano was available to replace Cutch.


Alfonso Soriano is available to replace the child that was taken away.
   92. Steve Treder Posted: January 17, 2018 at 05:21 PM (#5608382)
Do they have interest in Lorenzo Cain?

I've heard talk that they are, but I think he's going to cost more than they're willing to spend.
   93. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 17, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5608390)
My impression is that it's primarily the QO standing in their way with Cain - a 2nd, a 5th and $1m in international pool money is pretty punitive, and as a team loading up for a run before their window closes, the value of those future assets is especially high and they know it.

The talk all offseason has been more or less treating the luxury tax as a hard cap for them - they would be paying 50% tax as repeat offenders - but I think they might be willing to pay it for a guy like Cain, who could be legitimately framed as the 'final piece.' That's just my opinion though. Regardless, losing the picks would be a much harder pill to swallow for them.
   94. Sunday silence Posted: January 17, 2018 at 07:04 PM (#5608427)

I am done. Cutch, in the face of long odds, surpassed Barry Bonds and Jason Kendall as my favorite Pirate..


Im not sure why its taken you this long to come to this realization. The Pirates had a 3 yr (or more) window of oppurtunity to make some noise in the playoffs and they basically didnt make any late season moves to acquire anyone. They had a longer window than KCR and probably a whole lot of other teams who went onto win pennants and/or WS. I dont think anyone had a right to think they would be contending for a division/WC for that long.

I think I gave up after they let Melancon go, which by itself that move can be justified (like almost any move); but given their overall approach it was the last straw.
   95. Sunday silence Posted: January 17, 2018 at 08:03 PM (#5608454)
Plus it also seems obvious that they would have to rebuild at some point and I couldnt see the point in keeping Mccutch for this one last season. At least they got a couple prospects, they werent going to get anything if they waited for the Aug deadline.

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