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Tuesday, April 18, 2017

Pirates OF Starling Marte gets 80-game ban after positive PED test

Pittsburgh Pirates outfielder Starling Marte has been suspended 80 games by Major League Baseball after testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance, it was announced Tuesday.

“The Pittsburgh Pirates fully support MLB’s Joint Drug Agreement, including the very tough penalties for violations of its prohibitions,” Pirates president Frank Coonelly said in a statement. “We are disappointed that Starling put himself, his teammates and the organization in this position. We will continue to fight for the division title with the men who are here and will look forward to getting Starling back after the All-Star break.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:01 PM | 97 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: ped, pirates, sterling marte

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   1. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:05 PM (#5437420)
Meadows to RF and McCutchen back to CF?
   2. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:07 PM (#5437423)
It's unlikely, of course, but what happens if he gets elected to start the All-Star Game?
   3. There are no words... (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:11 PM (#5437428)
Whoa.
   4. JimMusComp likes Billy Eppler.... Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:13 PM (#5437432)
Yikes....

That's not so good...
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:15 PM (#5437435)
He was busted for Nandrolone, reportedly what Roger Clemens was injected with by Brian McNamee.
   6. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:17 PM (#5437440)
Does Frazier shift to the OF? Harrison is also pretty versatile, though he seems entrenched as an infielder.

Between Kang and this, the Pirates have had some pretty crappy luck.
   7. Russ Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:18 PM (#5437441)
Jesus ####### christ.
   8. Khrushin it bro Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5437444)
Whoa that is Startling!
   9. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:20 PM (#5437445)
This is a shame, all the more so for its having come immediately AFTER the Bucs swept the Cubs.

(I kid. This is disappointing; Marte's one of my favorite non-Cubs to watch play.)
   10. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:23 PM (#5437447)
We haven't had one of these for awhile (in terms of a starting MLB player going out). This was a shocker.
   11. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:24 PM (#5437448)
The Pirates just can't win.
   12. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:26 PM (#5437450)
We will continue to fight for the division title with the men who are here and will look forward to getting Starling back after the All-Star break.


Not that they were very likely to succeed in this fight even with Marte, but if the Pirates make the postseason, Marte is ineligible, correct? Or did I dream that change in the system?
   13. Brian Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:27 PM (#5437452)
Let the Austin Meadows era begin!
   14. DCA Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:28 PM (#5437457)
Meadows hasn't exactly mastered AAA yet. Daniel Ortiz is an AAA vet who could maybe be a 5th OF. He's probably the first one to get a shot if they pull from the minors.

I think we see Frazier/Harrison in the OF and more Gosselin/Hanson in the IF, so a 5th OF who can play a credible CF would probably make sense.
   15. PreservedFish Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:34 PM (#5437466)
Wow.
   16. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:35 PM (#5437468)
Not that they were very likely to succeed in this fight even with Marte, but if the Pirates make the postseason, Marte is ineligible, correct? Or did I dream that change in the system?

Yes, my understanding is that he'd be ineligible for the post-season roster under the current CBA.
   17. Captain Supporter Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5437474)
"Neglect and lack of knowledge have led me to this mistake with the high price to pay of being away from the field that I enjoy and love so much. With much embarrassment and helplessness, I ask for forgiveness for unintentionally disrespecting so many people who have trusted in my work and have supported me so much. I promise to learn the lesson that this ordeal has left me. God bless you."


Well let's see. He 'neglected' to do what he had to do to cover up his taking steroids. He had a 'lack of knowledge' about Nandrolone, a hard core steroid with no current medical use. It was a 'mistake' to get caught. He is 'helpless' because he has to accept responsibility for his illegal act. Something was 'unintentional' (getting caught, I guess, because certainly injecting Nandrolone into his ass was not unintentional). And apparently getting caught for something he chose to do is an 'ordeal'.

One piece of nonsense after another. I don't know much about Marte as a man but this statement does not in any way speak well for his character.
   18. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:37 PM (#5437476)
That's the end of this suit.
   19. madvillain Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:38 PM (#5437478)
Well, isn't this a "fun" PED:

hen used in a testosterone and/or dianabol cycle, deca really adds weight to the cycle without much more stress on the system. Deca does not add additional side-effects when used with other steroids, but it should never be used alone. Standalone use of nandrolone comes with its very own set of nasty side-effects, the most infamous of them all is the dreaded “Deca Dick”, where the affected user is unable to get or sustain an erection. This is due to the fact that without the stronger testosterone metabolites like dihydrotestosterone (DHT), the softer and much weaker metabolites from deca will flood your receptors, not leaving room for stronger androgens. Not only are deca’s weaker metabolites an issue when there is an absence of stronger androngens, but nandrolone itself can, and will, attach to progesterone receptors. This causes side effects that only affect the user in the absence of supraphysiological amounts of stronger androgens.

The best way to explain deca durabolin is that it's basically a progesterone-like hormone that builds muscle mass, strength and, to a lesser degree, helps repair joints. It should not give you any bad side effects when used with stronger androgens that will mask and counteract possible problems from nandrolone. If ever used by itself, the bad side-effects from nandrolone will crush your libido, sexual desire, cause bloating and gynecomastia (##### tits).



So, I'm taking it he was also using other 'roids.
   20. Khrushin it bro Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:56 PM (#5437494)
But will it cause bacne?
   21. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 18, 2017 at 03:59 PM (#5437501)
One piece of nonsense after another. I don't know much about Marte as a man but this statement does not in any way speak well for his character.

I agree that the "poor me" statements and/or vague, evasive non-apologies that the players always release after getting busted are pretty grating. If I were an agent, I think I'd tell my client not to. "It's like, you remember that time you banged the Hooters waitress in Atlanta, right? And your wife got mad? You remember how she didn't care why you banged the Hooters waitress, or that you only banged the Hooters waitress that one time, or that you were really embarrassed because she found out you banged the Hooters waitress? Now why was that - do you remember? Exactly. Because you knew damn well you weren't supposed to bang the Hooters waitress. Make sense?"
   22. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:07 PM (#5437508)
I sort of agree with #21, but they have to release some sort of statement. Generic mumble is about as good as it is going to get. Put another way be mad at the crime not the feeble apology.
   23. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:13 PM (#5437511)
Meh, I'd take PEDs if it got me to the majors, let alone reaching Marte's level. I would feel bad about getting caught and letting down the team.
   24. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5437513)
That explains all those homers he's been hitting the last few years.
   25. Captain Supporter Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:15 PM (#5437514)
It would be better to simply issue a short statement saying that you accept responsbility for your actions and that you apologize to your teammates and the fans. It will certainly go over better than nonsense which just begs to be ridiculed.
   26. Baseballs Most Beloved Figure Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:16 PM (#5437515)
I sort of agree with #21, but they have to release some sort of statement.
How about a simple, "I apologize for letting down my teammates, the organization and the fans." End of statement.
   27. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:18 PM (#5437516)
Most players, whether doing PEDs or getting some on the side, do so without getting caught. That's the shame for guys like Marte, and it's very real. You've lost the respect of your peers and you won't get it back.
   28. BrianBrianson Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:21 PM (#5437520)
You're all nuts. Issue a press release saying "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't competin'" and rake in all the heel fans.
   29. Jose is El Absurd Bronson Y Pollo Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:25 PM (#5437521)
He acknowledged his mistake and apologized. Not sure what people want him to do.
   30. PreservedFish Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:29 PM (#5437525)
Well Jose, he made it sound like he didn't know that he was cheating. Can't fault anyone for being skeptical about that.
   31. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5437526)

You're all nuts. Issue a press release saying "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't competin'" and rake in all the heel fans.


That would be awesome. And probably better for his rep, tbh.
   32. Brian C Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:35 PM (#5437527)
Well Jose, he made it sound like he didn't know that he was cheating. Can't fault anyone for being skeptical about that.

Eh, we don't know what happened. It could very well be a case of neglect - someone gives you a "supplement", you trust them ... oops. Willful neglect, to be sure, but then we all know that most people - athletes or otherwise - can't really tell their ass from their elbow when it comes to what they're putting in their bodies.
   33. RJ in TO Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:36 PM (#5437528)
He acknowledged his mistake and apologized. Not sure what people want him to do.
Not do PEDs or, if he's going to do PEDs, not get caught doing PEDs.
   34. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:37 PM (#5437529)

He acknowledged his mistake and apologized. Not sure what people want him to do.

No, he didn't acknowledge it, unless you actually believe that he "made a mistake" and didn't know he was taking a banned substance. People want him to accept responsibility for deliberately violating the rules, or at least not to pretend otherwise.
   35. BrianBrianson Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:41 PM (#5437535)
"Made a mistake" doesn't imply "It was an accident" - it also means "Made a bad judgement". "It was a mistake to take the highway" doesn't mean you ended up on the highway by accident.
   36. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5437539)
"Made a mistake" doesn't imply "It was an accident" - it also means "Made a bad judgement". "It was a mistake to take the highway" doesn't mean you ended up on the highway by accident.

Eh, I dunno. To me, "made a mistake" (even in the active voice rather than "mistakes were made") implies some level of non-culpability, in the sense that there was some missing or incorrect information at the time the decision was made, such that it was possible at the time to think that the decision might have been OK. Here, the only missing information is whether or not a player is going to get caught. There's no possibility, ethically speaking,* that the decision to take steroids could turn out to be the right one. That's not a "mistake," that's entirely deliberate. The euphemistic use of "made a mistake" in place of "I tried to do something unethical and/or illegal and got caught" is of course by no means limited to PEDs or sports.

*Ethical relative to baseball as a whole, anyway - leaving aside any ethical considerations with respect to the particular player's situation.
   37. Baldrick Posted: April 18, 2017 at 04:56 PM (#5437547)
Focusing on the meaning of 'mistake' kind of feels like missing the point.

Neglect. Lack of knowledge. Unintentionally disrespecting.

Those are all words that mean: I didn't know I was doing anything wrong!
   38. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:04 PM (#5437551)
*Ethical relative to baseball as a whole, anyway - leaving aside any ethical considerations with respect to the particular player's situation.


Aye, there's the rub. Do we really think players who don't get caught are by and large clean? How do younget to the majors in thr firat place? There was a recent thread bemoaning the fact black players don't have the finances to make the majors. How much more so is that for a Dominican? And as you say, you don't know his circumstances. It's not unrelated that people want some soul-baring apology as well.

He ###### up, no question. What more do we need to know or explain?
   39. Lars6788 Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:08 PM (#5437553)
I would appreciate it if the apology was some combination of actually being believable, coming from Marte himself - none of these big words used in a statement obviously put out by his agent - though I would relax, it's not that big of a deal since it's standard for any athlete who does this sort of thing.
   40. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:11 PM (#5437559)
Don't forget ESL.
   41. bfan Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:16 PM (#5437564)
I think the focus people are giving on the phrase making a mistake is healthy and important, if you believe words matter. I think making a wrong turn is a mistake; I think calling a conscious effort to cheat by engaging in an act that you know to be wrong is much, much more than a mistake, and when we dismiss things like this as a mistake, we far too often run the risk of relapse and re-engagement of the banned behavior, because of the trivializing of the offense. The first step to recovery and rehabilitation is admitting the role of your own free will in the incident. To be clear here, I am all for forgiveness and moving forward when he has served the agreed upon punishment, so I do not come at this as someone who wants to bring ruin to this player. But goodness gracious, have the courage to step up and embrace your bad acts. In the end, you will be better for it.
   42. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5437565)
Eh, we don't know what happened. It could very well be a case of neglect - someone gives you a "supplement", you trust them ... oops. Willful neglect, to be sure, but then we all know that most people - athletes or otherwise - can't really tell their ass from their elbow when it comes to what they're putting in their bodies.


Wikipedia indicates it is not effective when taken orally and must be injected into muscle. It's not used medically. It doesn't seem like some supplement you might get in a bad batch of a muscle shake. Other than team trainers with painkillers, are there other commonly injected legal drugs that a player would use? If not, neglect seems highly unlikely.
   43. BrianBrianson Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:17 PM (#5437567)
Make a mistake means with the benefit of hindsight, you wouldn't make the same choices again. It doesn't make you less culpable for what happened, except that supposedly you're a wiser person now who wouldn't do it again, so you're no longer carrying culpability for it happening again.

There's no possibility, ethically speaking,* that the decision to take steroids could turn out to be the right one.


This is also nuts. If a baseball play can cheat and get away with it, he (or she) should. They're there to win. If you get caught - there's a set penalty, so really, it's essentially within the rules anyhow.
   44. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:18 PM (#5437568)
Those are all words that mean: I didn't know I was doing anything wrong!
"I didn't know steroids could be so difficult."

I don't know that any apology would satisfy some people. He's accepting his punishment, and assuming he won't do it again, what else can be reasonably expected of him? It's done.
   45. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:24 PM (#5437578)
I don't know that any apology would satisfy some people.

I think this sort of statement:

How about a simple, "I apologize for letting down my teammates, the organization and the fans." End of statement.


Would satisfy pretty much everyone.
   46. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:26 PM (#5437582)
That didn't work for Jason Giambi, so I don't see how it'd work for Marte.
   47. Rob_Wood Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:26 PM (#5437583)
I know I have watched too many episodes of Law and Order, but does MLB attempt to determine where the PEDs came from, who helped him get them, who administered them, was the Pirates organization in any way involved, etc.? Or are they prohibited from such an inquiry and bound solely by the tests?
   48. Brian C Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:28 PM (#5437584)
I think the focus people are giving on the phrase making a mistake is healthy and important, if you believe words matter.

What if you don't believe words matter? Indeed, I can hardly imagine how someone would think Marte's words really do matter here. Even if he put out a statement that said exactly what his detractors are asking for, it wouldn't mean anything. For all you would know, he might at the gym shooting up more steroids the very minute it was released.

Words are for suckers. There is nothing that is "healthy" about spending more time analyzing statements like this than it takes to read them in the first place.
   49. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:29 PM (#5437585)
It wouldn't satisfy a lot of people, no, but I would count myself in the group that would be fairly satisfied with a terse "I apologize to my teammates and Pirates fans" but am repulsed by the over-engineered PR firm "I'm sorry I got caught" non-apology Marte and almost everyone else who's ever been busted for steroids actually produced.

I can't imagine teaching my son anything but, "Son, when you get caught doing something you know damn well is wrong, either own it and apologize, own it and don't apologize, or just keep your mouth shut. Don't be phony."

Now if he'd done this:

You're all nuts. Issue a press release saying "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't competin'" and rake in all the heel fans.


then I wouldn't be typing these words right now, I'd be ordering a Starling Marte jersey.
   50. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:29 PM (#5437586)

He was busted for Nandrolone, reportedly what Roger Clemens was injected with by Brian McNamee.


Also what you call it when a wood elf is off by himself.
   51. Bote Man Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:33 PM (#5437593)
I'm 80% certain that during the Pirates game last night one of the commenters remarked how Marté looked so much beefier this season. The other 20% is that he was remarking about Polanco, but I'm going with Marté because it fits the narrative today.
   52. bfan Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:37 PM (#5437599)
What if you don't believe words matter?


Then I would call you a visual learner.
   53. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:44 PM (#5437605)
The first step to recovery and rehabilitation is admitting the role of your own free will in the incident. To be clear here, I am all for forgiveness and moving forward when he has served the agreed upon punishment, so I do not come at this as someone who wants to bring ruin to this player.


Not to get too far off in the weeds, but I'm struck that despite the decline of organized Christianity, it lives on so strongly within the culture as a whole.

Then again, you don't throw off a centries-long heritage of Puritanism just like that.*

*bfan may be an practicing Christain
   54. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:46 PM (#5437607)
This is also nuts. If a baseball play can cheat and get away with it, he (or she) should. They're there to win. If you get caught - there's a set penalty, so really, it's essentially within the rules anyhow.

You have a very different definition of "ethical" than I (and many others) do, it would seem.
   55. bfan Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:50 PM (#5437611)
There is a lot of virtue and good in the values and teachings, even if you do not buy into the trappings through which they are currently conveyed. I sincerely hope that a lot of people today carry these beliefs with them, whether they worship in an organized religion or not.

Seriously, I have so much more respect for someone who admits and embraces their actions that cause harm than those who would cleverly wordsmith their way around them, which leaves one to wonder whether they really do believe they have done something wrong (other than getting caught).
   56. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:51 PM (#5437612)
"Made a mistake" doesn't imply "It was an accident" - it also means "Made a bad judgement". "It was a mistake to take the highway" doesn't mean you ended up on the highway by accident.

If he had only said "I made a mistake", people would not be as critical. But "lack of knowledge" means he's claiming he didn't know he was breaking the rules. There's really no other way to interpret it. And that's what people here aren't buying.

That didn't work for Jason Giambi, so I don't see how it'd work for Marte.

You mean the Jason Giambi who managed to stick around in the majors until age 43, despite being below replacement level for 4 of those last 5 seasons? The Giambi who has been considered for managerial and coaching jobs? I'd say it worked all right for him.

Besides, Marte's apology didn't fail because it didn't make everyone immediately forgive his transgressions - that's not how apologies work. The apology failed because, in its apparent lack of honesty, it actually makes the situation worse. He's being suspended for what is fundamentally an act of dishonesty, and rather than rebuilding people's trust in him, his first statement makes him seem even less trustworthy.
   57. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:51 PM (#5437613)
I don't know that any apology would satisfy some people.

The reason people are pushing back, is primarily because this is a standard non-apology. Worse actually, because he is trying to paint himself as the real victim, who went through an ordeal and has had to pay a high price! Helpless even! Humiliated and embarrassed for unintentional mistakes! He never knew!
   58. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: April 18, 2017 at 05:51 PM (#5437614)
I know I have watched too many episodes of Law and Order, but does MLB attempt to determine where the PEDs came from, who helped him get them, who administered them, was the Pirates organization in any way involved, etc.? Or are they prohibited from such an inquiry and bound solely by the tests?

MLB certainly did this with BALCO. I have no idea whether they routinely investigate a positive test result in order to try to uncover some sort of conspiracy.

Unless they're willing to reduce a suspension in exchange for information (which I'm not sure that they could actually do, under the current CBA), I have no idea why a player would cooperate with MLB in its effort to identify his supplier.
   59. bfan Posted: April 18, 2017 at 06:02 PM (#5437625)
I have no idea why a player would cooperate with MLB in its effort to identify his supplier.


Well, unless the supplier is going to kill him for blabbing, why not identify the supplier? Isn't that the right thing for him to do? Ultimately, it is just information; MLB still has the burden to show there was wrong-doing or a criminal act by the supplier.
   60. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 06:06 PM (#5437630)
those who would cleverly wordsmith their way around them,


Again, the elephant in the room is that Enlgish is Marte's second language. Did you catch Yadier Molina's interview Sunday night in place of the baseball game? Didn't speak a word of Englush that I caught.

There's a cultural disconnect here that espn won't explore beyond stereotypes. A lot of mlb players are barely like you and me.
   61. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 06:11 PM (#5437633)
There is a lot of virtue and good in the values and teachings, even if you do not buy into the trappings through which they are currently conveyed. I sincerely hope that a lot of people today carry these beliefs with them, whether they worship in an organized religion or not.


People are born to them. What I'm pressing is that cultures aren't a matter of picking and choosing... except as part of our own consumer culture.
   62. Omineca Greg Posted: April 18, 2017 at 06:12 PM (#5437634)
The reason people are pushing back, is primarily because this is a standard non-apology


Yeah, if he's going to go the non-apology route, he has to put in some effort. If I were his agent, I'd dress him in a leather jacket and 60s Polaroid Cool Rays. And then I'd hire a Welsh avant-garde violist to accompany him when he sings this song at the press conference...

I don't know just where I'm going
But I'm gonna try for the big contract, if I can
'Cause it makes me feel like I'm a man
When I put a spike into my vein
And I tell you things aren't quite the same

When I'm rushing on my run
And I feel just like Canseco's son
And I guess that I just don't know
And I guess that I just don't know

I have made a big decision
I'm gonna try to improve my muscle mass
'Cause when the blood begins to flow
When it shoots up the dropper's neck
When my testicles are shrinking up

You can't help me now, you guys
And all you sweet girls with all your sweet talk
My libido's gone out for a walk
And I guess I just don't know
And I guess that I just don't know

I wish that I was born a thousand years ago
I wish that I'd sailed the darkened seas
On a great big clipper ship
Going from this land here to that
I'd put on a Pirate's suit and cap

Away from the MLB
Where a man cannot be free
Of all the evils of this town
And of himself and those around
Oh, and I guess that I just don't know
Oh, and I guess that I just don't know

Nandrolone, be the death of me
Nandrolone, it's my wife and it's my life
Because a mainline into my vein
Leads to a center in my head
And then I'm better off than dead

Because when the steroid begins to flow
I really don't care anymore
About all the Jim-Jims in this town
And all the commissioners making crazy sounds
And everybody putting everybody else down
And my man tits growing up in mounds

'Cause when the steroid begins to flow
And I really don't care anymore
Ah, when that Nandrolone is in my blood
And that blood is in my head
Then thank God that I'm as good as dead
And thank your God that I'm not aware
And thank God that I just don't care
And I guess I just don't know
Oh, and I guess I just don't know


Ah, that's kind of weak. Maybe I'd need to call in The Exploding Plastic Inevitable to make it more interesting.

You see, I'd be a good agent. A shitty agent would have him sing Captain Jack...

   63. Cargo Cultist Posted: April 18, 2017 at 06:16 PM (#5437637)
What a ##### statement. That statement makes things worse, not better.

Here:

"I did it. I'm sorry. I won't do it again." And then take your punishment like a man and never do it again.

Act like a man, not like a spoiled 12-year-old kid, damn it.
   64. X-Roid User Posted: April 18, 2017 at 06:29 PM (#5437644)
Well let's see. He 'neglected' to do what he had to do to cover up his taking steroids. He had a 'lack of knowledge' about Nandrolone, a hard core steroid with no current medical use. It was a 'mistake' to get caught. He is 'helpless' because he has to accept responsibility for his illegal act. Something was 'unintentional' (getting caught, I guess, because certainly injecting Nandrolone into his ass was not unintentional). And apparently getting caught for something he chose to do is an 'ordeal'.


A hard core steroid? LOL, deca is one of the mildest steroids there is. And it used medically... to treat anemia.

As far as steroids go, deca is an archaic drug. Not very powerful and stays in your system a looonngg time. Marte wins the gold medal for stupidity.
   65. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: April 18, 2017 at 06:45 PM (#5437652)
Well, unless the supplier is going to kill him for blabbing, why not identify the supplier? Isn't that the right thing for him to do? Ultimately, it is just information; MLB still has the burden to show there was wrong-doing or a criminal act by the supplier.

IANAL, but seems to me like it would just be downside with no upside if providing the information doesn't reduce the suspension. Providing information about a conspiracy to distribute drugs could implicate the player in a drug investigation by a law enforcement agency. Unless the player is getting immunity from prosecution (something MLB obviously can't grant), then I would imagine that every lawyer would strongly advise their client to not say anything as to where the drugs came from.

Unless MLB is planning to sue the drug supplier, they have no "burden to show... wrong-doing." It's the government's job to go after the supplier for criminal acts, not MLB's.

Finally, the threat of violence in retaliation for snitching against a drug supplier could very well be real.
   66. cardsfanboy Posted: April 18, 2017 at 07:08 PM (#5437661)
I'm upset, I campaigned hard for Marte for the All Star game last year, and was hoping he would go this year also.
   67. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: April 18, 2017 at 07:09 PM (#5437662)
It doesn't seem like some supplement you might get in a bad batch of a muscle shake.

Google "nandrolone contamination."
   68. You're a clown, RMc! I'm tired of it! Posted: April 18, 2017 at 07:14 PM (#5437663)
I don't know that any apology would satisfy some people.

This is why you rarely see true apologies in public life: apologizing only annoys your supporters, while your detractors are not impressed. That's why the United CEO didn't apologize right away, seeking to shift the blame to the passenger who was beaten worse than Verlander in Cleveland. (It was only after worldwide outrage and a billion-dollar loss in United's stock price that the CEO went hat-in-hand to the morning talk shows, begging for his job.)
   69. Brian C Posted: April 18, 2017 at 07:29 PM (#5437674)

Seriously, I have so much more respect for someone who admits and embraces their actions that cause harm than those who would cleverly wordsmith their way around them, which leaves one to wonder whether they really do believe they have done something wrong (other than getting caught).

Yeah but this is my question: why would you have more respect for someone who admits wrong? Some of the biggest pieces of #### I know are actually really good apologizers, because they know how easy it is to emotionally manipulate someone by seeming contrite.

The bottom line is, it's hard enough to know if someone is sincere or not in their apology when you're close to them personally. It's downright impossible to know if that someone is a public figure you've never met - and you're going off a PR statement, no less. At that point, you're just mind-reading about celebrity gossip. It has zero value; you're literally just as well off trying to gauge Marte's contrition by flipping a coin.
   70. PreservedFish Posted: April 18, 2017 at 07:39 PM (#5437684)
#62 - Starling in Furs - well done as always!
   71. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 18, 2017 at 09:48 PM (#5437787)
Not to get too far off in the weeds, but I'm struck that despite the decline of organized Christianity, it lives on so strongly within the culture as a whole.

Then again, you don't throw off a centries-long heritage of Puritanism just like that.*

*bfan may be an practicing Christain


There's such a thing as puritanism, but this ain't it.

Christian morality does not equal puritanism. And believing you shouldn't cheat, and if you get caught, you should apologize is not even Christian morality, it's basic golden-rule human nature.
   72. Cargo Cultist Posted: April 18, 2017 at 10:48 PM (#5437855)
Not cheating is basic, fundamental human ethics. If you cheat you are without integrity, untrustworthy, and despicable.

Religion has nothing to do it: it's ethics.
   73. Franco American Posted: April 18, 2017 at 11:04 PM (#5437866)
Nobody's questioning Marte cheated and is justly penalized. My comments were directed towards #41 -- they could have been spoken by a priest. There's nothing natural about free will, punishment, and foregiveness. Those are all passed down through our religious and cultural heritage.

Nature is about gaining any advantage at hand. Find me somebody apologizing before he gets caught and I'll say a prayer for him.
   74. Walt Davis Posted: April 18, 2017 at 11:32 PM (#5437885)
Marte's apology is just whatever his lawyer, union rep, PR person told him to say. If the PR/legal experts say the best option is a non-apology apology then a non-apology apology is what we're going to get out of anybody caught in this situation whether that's what the apologizer feels or not. If the PR/legal experts decide that "I did wrong, sorry, won't happen again" is the way to go, that's the apology we'll get out of everybody. If they decide 40 lashes of self-flagellation on ESPN is the way to go, that's what we'll see. The reason "the words don't matter" is that the purpose of the words is not to explain Marte's feelings/beliefs/future intentions and the words will be the same for Marte (regardless of how he feels) as they were for the last athlete caught (regardless of how he/she feels) and probably for the next one (regardless of how he/she feels). Or are you the sorts of folks who believe the actor is the character they play in the soap?

If you've got a problem with Marte's apology then you've got a "problem" with the PR hacks of the world for not doing a better job of assuaging your unjustified feelings of resentment toward Marte. That's fine, have your whinge if it makes you feel better. Besides, every time there's a positive test, the punishment has to get more severe to satisfy folks like you which I'm sure Manfred is considering as we speak.

On some of the technical questions ... in the older JDA, players had no right of appeal for a positive test (other than the B sample). I believe that was one small concession they got when it was last re-written. It's still nearly impossible to over-turn a positive test but if they can prove it was a tainted supplement or (somehow) that it got in their system through apparently legitimate means, then the penalty might be reduced or waived. There are also some protections to cover the case if Marte has had to give another sample between this one and when he was informed of the positive result.

On investigations of suppliers ... I think one poster confused Biogenesis with BALCO. It was the Feds that went after BALCO and later Bonds. MLB did engage in some shady investigation of Biogenesis in its pursuit of ARod but still, the state or Fed bust of Biogenesis came first.

Less technical ... among the reasons Marte wouldn't turn in his supplier are (a) it would likely be the equivalent of ratting out other baseball players or at least other athletes after the supplier named names (they pretty much all do when it comes to roids) ... and nobody likes a rat; and, (b) why would he trust his supplier not to name Marte as a conspirator. If Marte was involved in distribution/dealing, the MLB penalties are more severe along with legal ramifications. If it was a tainted supplement or if he believes he can prove that his personal trainer misled him about the supplements he was giving him, then he might have sufficient reason to share info with MLB. But MLB could still resort to "you're ultimately responsible for what goes in your body."
   75. Franco American Posted: April 19, 2017 at 12:09 AM (#5437909)
Right on all counts, Walt. But people want a morality play.
   76. The Duke Posted: April 19, 2017 at 12:35 AM (#5437916)
He can't admit it, right? He's got a big contract that the Pirates could likely void. If you want him to admit have the Pirates write him an addendum that they won't void the contract if he admits illicit use. If that's what people want then he needs to effectively be given immunity. They really should do this in every case in exchange for the name of the dealer and other known associates. Of course, there are legal concerns as well so no one will ever admit anything.
   77. Cargo Cultist Posted: April 19, 2017 at 01:35 AM (#5437932)
Nature is about gaining any advantage at hand.


Correct, raw, bestial, uncivilized nature is. Humans who act that way are known either as criminals or as barbarians. Neither is a compliment.

Civilization requires ethics. Sport does as well, to ensure fair play. Unfortunately, because the world contains people like you and Marte and the others in this thread who have announced their support for cheating in it, civilization and sport also require laws and rules to try to prevent people like the lot of you from unethical behavior/cheating, and to punish you if you transgress.

One of my positions involves the identification and charging of ethical violators and seeing them convicted and punished. They are an amazingly contemptible lot; so uncivilized, so selfish and so self-centered that the only thing they are sorry for is that they were ever caught. Truly despicable.
   78. Tin Angel Posted: April 19, 2017 at 02:25 AM (#5437936)
Correct, raw, bestial, uncivilized nature is. Humans who act that way are known either as criminals or as barbarians.


Or government officials, CEO's, ad marketing teams, (most) lawyers, and basically anyone who sells anything....
   79. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: April 19, 2017 at 03:05 AM (#5437937)
He can't admit it, right? He's got a big contract that the Pirates could likely void. If you want him to admit have the Pirates write him an addendum that they won't void the contract if he admits illicit use.

Marte is a 4 win player on the good side of 30, under control for the next 4 years (last two are team options) at just over $10 million/year. Even with a steroid cloud over his head and all that it entails, someone would give him a nice raise if the Pirates voided his contract.
   80. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 19, 2017 at 03:31 AM (#5437938)
You mean the Jason Giambi who managed to stick around in the majors until age 43, despite being below replacement level for 4 of those last 5 seasons? The Giambi who has been considered for managerial and coaching jobs? I'd say it worked all right for him.
Do you really think Giambi kept getting chances because of his apology? You can't possibly think that.
   81. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 19, 2017 at 07:33 AM (#5437958)

Yeah but this is my question: why would you have more respect for someone who admits wrong?

Again, it's not about people having more respect for someone who admits wrong, it's about (in this case) having less respect for someone who we think is continuing to lie to them.

Some of the biggest pieces of #### I know are actually really good apologizers, because they know how easy it is to emotionally manipulate someone by seeming contrite.

Yes, that's exactly what people think Marte is trying to do here, and that's why they're annoyed by it.

Do you really think Giambi kept getting chances because of his apology? You can't possibly think that.

No, my point is that actually apologizing, as opposed to what Marte did, doesn't appear to have hurt him.
   82. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 19, 2017 at 09:05 AM (#5437988)

If you've got a problem with Marte's apology then you've got a "problem" with the PR hacks of the world for not doing a better job of assuaging your unjustified feelings of resentment toward Marte.


Walt, this is just wrong. The feeling of resentment the Pirates owners, players, coaches and fans have towards Marte are completely justified. He's really screwed up their season by cheating.
   83. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 19, 2017 at 09:09 AM (#5437991)
No, my point is that actually apologizing, as opposed to what Marte did, doesn't appear to have hurt him.


I think history has shown the best approach to take is blaming tainted Dominican milkshakes, followed by a pat on the head from George Mitchell.
   84. Nasty Nate Posted: April 19, 2017 at 09:29 AM (#5438000)
Some of the biggest pieces of #### I know are actually really good apologizers, because they know how easy it is to emotionally manipulate someone by seeming contrite.


Yes, that's exactly what people think Marte is trying to do here, and that's why they're annoyed by it.
No, people are annoyed because Marte doesn't seem contrite (enough).
   85. zack Posted: April 19, 2017 at 10:11 AM (#5438025)
Edit: let's not go there.

There are a dozen interesting things to talk about a clockwork 5-win player getting a surprise suspension, how the Pirate's PR person wrote his non-apology is not one of them.
   86. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 19, 2017 at 10:22 AM (#5438033)

No, people are annoyed because Marte doesn't seem contrite (enough).

Yep, I said it's what he's *trying* to do.
   87. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: April 19, 2017 at 10:36 AM (#5438045)
He's got a big contract that the Pirates could likely void.

Can stop you right here. No, they can't.


All authority to discipline Players for violations of the Program shall repose with the Commissioner's Office. No Club may take any disciplinary or adverse action against a Player (including, but not limited to, a fine, suspension, or any adverse action pursuant to a Uniform Player's Contract) because of a Player's violation of the Program.


   88. Franco American Posted: April 19, 2017 at 10:41 AM (#5438053)
The Passan article rightly points out the Pirates have a steal in Marte's contract.

Edit: tip of hat to Dog.
   89. Franco American Posted: April 19, 2017 at 10:50 AM (#5438065)
Civilization requires ethics. Sport does as well, to ensure fair play. Unfortunately, because the world contains people like you and Marte and the others in this thread who have announced their support for cheating in it, civilization and sport also require laws and rules to try to prevent people like the lot of you from unethical behavior/cheating, and to punish you if you transgress.


No, to make an example of a few individuals who get caught. Your best cheaters rarely get caught and are more practiced at the arts of deception.

One of my positions involves the identification and charging of ethical violators and seeing them convicted and punished. They are an amazingly contemptible lot; so uncivilized, so selfish and so self-centered that the only thing they are sorry for is that they were ever caught. Truly despicable.


I kinda picture you as Michael Chiklis.
   90. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 19, 2017 at 11:17 AM (#5438096)
Does this drug have any reputation in the promotion of healing? Marte got some public mention from management at the end of last season for staying out of the lineup while others played hurt. He was finally put on the DL right at the end of the season.
   91. LA Podcasting Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 19, 2017 at 12:01 PM (#5438142)
No, my point is that actually apologizing, as opposed to what Marte did, doesn't appear to have hurt him.
Of course it didn't hurt him. It didn't hurt him, it didn't help him. It didn't matter.

Remember, Giambi didn't actually come out and say, "Yeah, I juiced like an orange." No, here's what he said:
"I feel I let down the fans, I feel I let down the media, I feel I let down the Yankees, and not only the Yankees, but my teammates... I accept full responsibility for that, and I'm sorry... I know the fans might want more, but because of all the legal matters, I can't get into specifics. Someday, hopefully, I will be able to."
How's that substantive better — or even different — than what Marte did? The apology, such as it is, doesn't matter. Giambi became more accepted again when he started hitting again.
   92. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 19, 2017 at 12:20 PM (#5438160)
So Mark DeRosa is on MLB Network right now spouting off about how McCutchen should have refused to move back to CF after Marte's suspension because the Pirates treated him with such disrespect by moving him to RF in the first place. Unbelievable.
   93. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: April 19, 2017 at 01:44 PM (#5438221)
Your best cheaters rarely get caught and are more practiced at the arts of deception.


You can tell by their blood stained hands.
   94. Russ Posted: April 19, 2017 at 03:00 PM (#5438298)
So Mark DeRosa is on MLB Network right now spouting off about how McCutchen should have refused to move back to CF after Marte's suspension because the Pirates treated him with such disrespect by moving him to RF in the first place. Unbelievable.


I wish people could just be allowed to agree to disagree. The Pirates think Cutch has more value in RF. Cutch thinks that he would have more value in CF. I agree with the Pirates, but Cutch is allowed to have his point of view. The balance of power is asymmetric (I mean, Cutch doesn't pay the Pirates), so Cutch moves to RF. Cutch says that he would rather not move because he still wants people to think of him as a CF. It's OK to have a disagreement about something without it devolving into a question of respect.

Now, as is inevitable in baseball, Cutch gets the opportunity to prove the Pirates wrong. This probably would have happened if Polanco had gotten hurt, as I could have seen the Pirates move Marte to LF and Cutch back to CF to make room for Meadows. S**t happens in baseball all year long, one of my favorite things about MLB is the inevitable day-to-day adaptation that the teams must make over a whole season. The teams that adapt the best perform the best.

Long live our future PED suspendee, Austin Meadows. I had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Meadows crush the snot out of a ball that went just foul during the Exp-I mean Blue Jays-Pirates exhibition Saturday game in Montreal at the beginning of April. I don't think I remember seeing a Pirate prospect that young with so much raw power. His swing on that pitch reminded me of Daryl Strawberry... long and smooth.

   95. Russ Posted: April 19, 2017 at 03:03 PM (#5438301)
Walt, this is just wrong. The feeling of resentment the Pirates owners, players, coaches and fans have towards Marte are completely justified. He's really screwed up their season by cheating.


I agree on this. The team was already balanced on a knife's edge because the pitching seems so up in the air and with Cutch's season last year, the Pirate playoff hopes probably won't survive an 80 game suspension to Marte. Even if Meadows does hit as much as Marte did, the drop in fielding still makes for a negative overall. And Meadows won't hit like Marte. I'm still really depressed.
   96. cardsfanboy Posted: April 19, 2017 at 05:13 PM (#5438438)
I wish people could just be allowed to agree to disagree. The Pirates think Cutch has more value in RF. Cutch thinks that he would have more value in CF. I agree with the Pirates, but Cutch is allowed to have his point of view. The balance of power is asymmetric (I mean, Cutch doesn't pay the Pirates), so Cutch moves to RF. Cutch says that he would rather not move because he still wants people to think of him as a CF. It's OK to have a disagreement about something without it devolving into a question of respect.

Now, as is inevitable in baseball, Cutch gets the opportunity to prove the Pirates wrong. This probably would have happened if Polanco had gotten hurt, as I could have seen the Pirates move Marte to LF and Cutch back to CF to make room for Meadows. S**t happens in baseball all year long, one of my favorite things about MLB is the inevitable day-to-day adaptation that the teams must make over a whole season. The teams that adapt the best perform the best.


I just wanted to say I love this post. Cutch is a professional, he did what was asked of him, he responded back, sure he showed a minor bit of defiance in his attitude in his first game back at center, but again he did his job. You can disagree with your boss and still do what they ask you to do.

I'm fairly certain every person on the planet that knows anything about baseball, was pretty confident that over the course of the season McCutchen was going to get at least 10 if not 20 starts in center, that just seemed likely based upon everything we know about baseball.
   97. cardsfanboy Posted: April 19, 2017 at 05:14 PM (#5438439)
The thing that I find weird about this, is that from everything I know about the suspension process, the Pirates had to have known about this at least 2 weeks ago, and I'm not seeing anything from them indicating that they were looking at adding a quality player... Angel Pagan was mentioned in another thread, but not sure when those overtures started.

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