Funny, the Pirates never actually say their profits were much less than the Forbes number.

i would believe forbes before nutting.

if nutting wants to prove that forbes is wrong, lessee the books. oh??? he don't wanna? gee, i am shocked SHOCKED there is so much profit from the pirates franchise.

i really feel sorry for the pirates fans they can't do nothing about the owners. it is a miracle thres any fans left at all.

and lets say i am not exactly shocked about the marlins numbers neither. poor john brattain gonna have himself some blood pressure there.

#1 and #2 really said all that needs to be said here.

Nutting doesn't deserve any trust. Keep turning up the pressure!

While other small market teams enjoy the competetive balance, Pirates fans continue to root for bums. On a side note, they've almost proofed MLB 2K7 against Pittsburgh ever winning the World Series.

I would believe Baghdad Bob before Nutting.

"There numbers are false! False I tells ya!"

"Then what are the real numbers?"

"That I cannot divulge. But their numbers are false! Trust me!"

We're poor, I swear. Owning this team is a shitty investment, that's why we're here.

Odd reaction here. Pirates payroll is what, 44 mil? This # in the story is operating income not pure profit but even so, if they plowed that all into payroll they'd be where, middle of the pack? That gonna make a huge difference?

Nutting: [to reporter] Ahem. Ah, yes. Er, naturally I can't spend much on player salaries because I'm strapped for cash.

[The ceiling caves in, spilling gold and jewels on him]

As you can see, this old place is falling apart...

if they plowed that all into payroll they'd be where, middle of the pack? That gonna make a huge difference?

If they plowed that all into the farm system and, more importantly, Latin American scouting, then yeah, it probably would make a huge difference.

Ogden doesn't care

why on EARTH would they pour one penny of profit into anything they don't have to?

seeing as how they gonna keep getting all that profit if they don't and getting that money is what matters, not winning.

look at it like this

they are last in the NL they get 25 mill
they are 6th in the NL they get no mill

what ever for?

$25M buys a hell of a lot of Dominican teenagers.

vlad,

it surely does.

but they got NO reason to spend even one PENNY of the profit on even ONE dominican teenager. it's not like they a grrrl in a shoe store you know.

it's not like they a grrrl in a shoe store you know.

Or a guy in Best Buy.

-- MWE

"but they got NO reason to spend even one PENNY of the profit on even ONE dominican teenager. it's not like they a grrrl in a shoe store you know."

Very true; I was just trying to rebut the whole "What good would an extra $20M do anyway?" thing.

Exactly. One should never confuse statements about what the Pirates SHOULD do with statements about what they WILL do.

So, anyone have an idea how much of this operating profit goes to EBIT?

And why exactly is it wrong for the team to try and turn a profit? Are they a charity?

Got no problem with a team trying to turn a profit.
But, "trying" is not what the Pirates are doing.
"Sucking" would be more accurate.
As in "sucking at the teat of the Yankees and Red Sox"
As well as "sucking at the business of winning baseball games"

Is there anyone here that has said that the Pirates turning a profit is a problem? If the owners of a professional sport franchise have no interest in fielding a competetive team, are taking revenue sharing money and not using it to benefit the franchise, and then are the 3rd most profitable team in the league, yeah, that's a problem.

And why exactly is it wrong for the team to try and turn a profit?

I think if the McNuttlefields had an interview and said something along the lines of:

"We're only interested in making money, so don't expect us to try to win anytime soon." I think most of us would be OK with your line of thinking. The problem is the lying that insults the fan base and makes light of the extortionary practices that got them PNC field. They did not say "We're going to build this stadium so that we can make a big profit." They said "We're going to build this stadium so that we can give you a successful baseball team."

The big question is how long the other owners will let the Pirates get away with this... I'm guessing "a) Not very " is the answer to that multiple choice question.

Russ (#21) wrote:

The big question is how long the other owners will let the Pirates get away with this... I'm guessing "a) Not very " is the answer to that multiple choice question.

I wish I could agree. But the owners had their chance to take a stand on this issue when they negotiated the current CBA. They faltered, though. It’s not hard to guess the reasons for their performance. Any payroll spending oversight mechanism the owners devised to discipline the Pirates and the Nutting partnership would have also impinged upon the prerogatives of the more successful owners. In short, the owners would have needed to open their books to MLBPA scrutiny. My guess assumes that most team owners would rather tolerate the Nuttings and their kind than to negotiate for an oversight mechanism with the MLBPA. I thus expect the Nutting partnership to continue to ride free till the next CBA sits on the bargaining table if not for a longer term than that.

In short, the owners would have needed to open their books to MLBPA scrutiny. My guess assumes that most team owners would rather tolerate the Nuttings and their kind than to negotiate for an oversight mechanism with the MLBPA

um, they alreay open their books to the players.

McCoy (#23) wrote:

um, they alreay open their books to the players.

The MLBPA is permitted to see what the owners want them to see. They are allowed to publicly discuss what the owners let them discuss. For the owners and players to implement an effective oversight mechanism, they would need to make the process transparent to themselves and, potentially to a court of law, would they not? How might the oversight mechanism work if no one could trust the numbers it used? It wouldn’t work as an oversight mechanism lacking reliable and verifiable figures.

I just can’t imagine the owners letting the players have that kind of insight into their business. We’ll see.

The players see the revenue side of the books, or at least the baseball part of it. I don't know whether they see parking, stadium advertising and that sort of thing. They don't see the expenses. The books are not open to the players, just certain items.

So, if the franchise is lying about trying to win and it's so obvious, why are the fans "letting 'em get away with it"? Maybe that the product is still good enough to consume even though they aren't "trying to win". And if so, what's exactly the problem again?

So, if the franchise is lying about trying to win and it's so obvious, why are the fans "letting 'em get away with it"? Maybe that the product is still good enough to consume even though they aren't "trying to win". And if so, what's exactly the problem again?

I guess we just disagree as to whether or not seeing a team you know has no chance is fun, as well as whether or not revenue sharing works if a team just pockets the money other teams have worked hard to get.

I just went to two games in which I gave a rat's arse about who won it or where those clubs were heading. I had a ball, of course it helps when it only costs $10.

Then again I've gone to basketball games where I didn't care about either team and they were some of the boringest hours of my life.

So, if the franchise is lying about trying to win and it's so obvious, why are the fans "letting 'em get away with it"?

This question assumes that all fans think alike, which of course is silly. If some fans are happy enough with pierogie races and fireworks to continue going to the park, it doesn't invalidate the complaints of other fans who want to see a good team.

And, in fact, the fans aren't "letting 'em get away with it." The Pirates' attendance has been either last or next to last in the NL the last three years. In a rational economic system, they'd be motivated to try to improve that by putting better teams on the field. The revenue sharing system instead rewards them for it and creates a disincentive for them to improve.

In addition, the Pirates have a local monopoly on big league ball in the area, so if you want to watch the Dodgers or Cubs or whomever without having to drive out to Philadelphia, you're buying Pirates tickets. I've lived in MLB cities where teams I loathed were based, and I'd still go to games just to get my baseball on.

To follow up WTM's comment, another thing that must be pointed out is that a smallish number of people go to PNC Park for the games themselves. It's very telling that the Pirates have one of the worst attendance records in baseball despite having what is universally regarded as one of the best five parks (possibly even one of the best three) in MLB.

I routinely see 3 games a year even though I live in Montreal. If I'm visiting my family in Pittsburgh during the season, I really want to see a game because I miss seeing MLB action in person AND because PNC is just a fantastic place to see a game. If the Pirates were still playing in TRS, it's very unlikely that I'd go to see game, because the experience was so uniformly unpleasant.

look

- the mcnuttingfields will tell the truth about the fact that they ONLY are in baseball to make the welfare profit offn steinhenry and they do not give even the teensiest damm about whether the team wins about the same time guys go up to some chick and say - look, you have a fat ass and an ugly face but i wanna screw you cuz i'm desperate for any piece and ida wanna hafta pay a ho - won't take but a few minnits then you be on your way.

- buddy boy ain't about to let the other owners bytch cuz he done the exact same thing when HE i mean his daughter was an owner and he don't wanna be the pot calling the kettle black.

- and the other owners probably don't care real too particular much at this particular second cuz there is plenty of $$$ to go around

i am not complaining that a businessman got a right to make money.

i am saying that if he is handed 25 mill to take home no matter what his business does then something is not right ESPECIALLY cuz he got a legal monopoly and the pittsburgh taxpayers paid for his stadium. i don't see why they couldn't get sued by a bunch of taxpayers for a class action law suit or something

i don't see why they couldn't get sued by a bunch of taxpayers for a class action law suit or something

I appreciate the thought, but there's no basis for any sort of legal action, because there's no "harm" (in the legal sense) in what the Pirates are doing.

-- MWE

"look, you have a fat ass and an ugly face but i wanna screw you cuz i'm desperate for any piece and ida wanna hafta pay a ho"

How's that work? I'm almost desperate enough to try it...

So, if the franchise is lying about trying to win and it's so obvious, why are the fans "letting 'em get away with it"?

Uh, they're not. There's this neat site called "Baseball-reference.com," and it has all sorts of stats. Including attendance. Counting backwards from 2006, Pittsburgh's rank in NL attendance: 15th, 16th, 15th, 14th, 13th, 11th (that was the first year in their park), 12th, 14th, 15th, 12th... well, you get the idea.

Maybe that the product is still good enough to consume even though they aren't "trying to win". And if so, what's exactly the problem again?

The problem is that the Pirates aren't making money from fan consumption. They're making money from other teams subsidizing them and (much worse) Pennsylvania taxpayers subsidizing them.

Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 22, 2007 at 07:20 PM (#2342464)

"look, you have a fat ass and an ugly face but i wanna screw you cuz i'm desperate for any piece and ida wanna hafta pay a ho"

How's that work? I'm almost desperate enough to try it...

- lessee
if i was you i would most DEFINITELY not try that. because youneverknow if that particular grrrrl might be all pms and perpetrate some SERIOUS man slaughter upon yo damfool ass

- trust me on this. flowers work better. so does really good dark chocolate.
and a gift certificate for manolo blahniks - dude, you can't go wrong there. unless you mind that she gonna be kissing and fondling them instead of you

-
"look, you have a fat ass and an ugly face but i wanna screw you cuz i'm desperate for any piece and ida wanna hafta pay a ho"

How's that work? I'm almost desperate enough to try it...

lessee
if i was you i would most DEFINITELY not try that. because youneverknow if that particular grrrrl might be all pms and perpetrate some SERIOUS man slaughter upon yo damfool ass

- trust me on this. flowers work better. so does really good dark chocolate.
and a gift certificate for manolo blahniks - dude, you can't go wrong there. unless you mind that she gonna be kissing and fondling them instead of you

Let me see if I've got this all correct in the baseball chick dictionary:

Grrl with fat ass and ugly face = Pirates fans
Pick-up artist = Nutting
Flowers = Jason Bay
Really Good Dark Chocolate = Andrew McCutcheon
Kissing and Fondling = The 4 young lefty starters - Duke, Maholm, Snell, and Gorzy
Serious man slaughter = Littlefield trading away Aramis Ramirez
Paying a Ho = Signing a legitimate FA
Gift for manolo blahniks = Umm... what the heck is manolo blahniks?

an expensive brand of shoe.

I thought that was Dulce and Cabana.

Dolce and Gabbana?

Yeah, whatever you call them.

Raskolnikov Posted: April 22, 2007 at 09:08 PM (#2342586)


Let me see if I've got this all correct in the baseball chick dictionary:

Grrl with fat ass and ugly face = Pirates fans (sigh. sorry.)
Pick-up artist = Nutting (yeh, he sure gets plenty. only guy gets more is loria)
Flowers = Jason Bay (not bad - needs a little flava)
Really Good Dark Chocolate = Andrew McCutcheon (YEAH baby YEAH- oooooooooh he got the magic stick)
Kissing and Fondling = The 4 young lefty starters - Duke, Maholm, Snell, and Gorzy
Serious man slaughter = Littlefield trading away Aramis Ramirez (for a bag of used chewing gum)
Paying a Ho = Signing a legitimate FA (you mean not derek bell???)
Gift for manolo blahniks = Umm... what the heck is manolo blahniks?

manolo blahnik??? you don't know what manolo blahniks are???? how ignerrint can you possibly be???? what are you, a man or something???

sigh.

ok. i'm gonna try. i would say that manolo blahniks are womens shoes. but not just shoes. manolo blahnik is to shoes as jessica alba/scarlett johanson/other female who shakes your tree is to, say, roseann barr

it is like this - if you are a grrrl and you win the 300 million powerball lottery and they ask you whatchu gonna do with all that $$$ - as soon as you buy husband a new Chair just like the one barry lamar got and you get a trust fund for your kidz skool and you get husband a bread new bbq grill and one of them new trucks like what jon lieber got he still moaning ovah - ohhhhhh, just look at THEM tires/fuel injected struts triple exhaust thingys AND buy 2 houses next to each other so as you can knock one of em down and have a really really BIG back yard and get another dog before husband get time to complain about it and oh yeah you get lifetime season tickets to the stros for all 5 of us

THEN

you got nothing to feel guilty about so it is off to Niemans and you don't just hafta look and lust and moan and dream about whatchu can't have because now you can buy EVERY SINGLE PAIR and you can custom order them too just in case they don't fit just perfect and

anyhow, it is like you get to spend, uh, quality time (ahem) with the chicks in the si swimsuit issue or maybe jenna jamison you know what i'm saying

They're making money from other teams subsidizing them

More precisely, they're making money from other teams by serving as the Washington Generals-type opposition for those other teams.

I wouldn't be too happy about that if I were a Pirates fan.

manolo blahnik??? you don't know what manolo blahniks are????

sigh.

ok. i'm gonna try. i would say that manolo blahniks are womens shoes. but not just shoes. manolo blahnik is to shoes as jessica alba/scarlett johanson/other female who shakes your tree is to, say, roseann barr


Yeah, whatever. When this Manolo Blahniks can come out of the bullpen, put up a 4/1 K/BB ratio, and K Brian McCann in a clutch situation, then I'll be impressed. In the meantime, I'll go with Joe Smith.



it is like this - if you are a grrrl and you win the 300 million powerball lottery and they ask you whatchu gonna do with all that $$$ - as soon as you buy husband a new Chair just like the one barry lamar got and you get a trust fund for your kidz skool and you get husband a bread new bbq grill and one of them new trucks like what jon lieber got he still moaning ovah - ohhhhhh, just look at THEM tires/fuel injected struts triple exhaust thingys AND buy 2 houses next to each other so as you can knock one of em down and have a really really BIG back yard and get another dog before husband get time to complain about it and oh yeah you get lifetime season tickets to the stros for all 5 of us

THEN

you got nothing to feel guilty about so it is off to Niemans


I don't get it. Why would you go for Jeff Niemann? Personally, I'd pick Tim Lincecum. Others would go for Philip Hughes. Fair enough. But Niemann?


and you don't just hafta look and lust and moan and dream about whatchu can't have because now you can buy EVERY SINGLE PAIR and you can custom order them too just in case they don't fit just perfect and


Whatever. They're shoes. They're made of dead horse and cover your calloused stinky feet.

Now, a #2 hitter who can get on base over 40% of the time and can turn the deuce, that's something to moan and dream about whatchu can't have.


anyhow, it is like you get to spend, uh, quality time (ahem) with the chicks in the si swimsuit issue or maybe jenna jamison you know what i'm saying


I fall for intelligence, personality, and a 95+ sinking fastball.

manolo blahnik??? you don't know what manolo blahniks are????

sigh.

ok. i'm gonna try. i would say that manolo blahniks are womens shoes. but not just shoes. manolo blahnik is to shoes as jessica alba/scarlett johanson/other female who shakes your tree is to, say, roseann barr


Yeah, whatever. When this Manolo Blahniks can come out of the bullpen, put up a 4/1 K/BB ratio, and K Brian McCann in a clutch situation, then I'll be impressed. In the meantime, I'll go with Joe Smith.



it is like this - if you are a grrrl and you win the 300 million powerball lottery and they ask you whatchu gonna do with all that $$$ - as soon as you buy husband a new Chair just like the one barry lamar got and you get a trust fund for your kidz skool and you get husband a bread new bbq grill and one of them new trucks like what jon lieber got he still moaning ovah - ohhhhhh, just look at THEM tires/fuel injected struts triple exhaust thingys AND buy 2 houses next to each other so as you can knock one of em down and have a really really BIG back yard and get another dog before husband get time to complain about it and oh yeah you get lifetime season tickets to the stros for all 5 of us

THEN

you got nothing to feel guilty about so it is off to Niemans


I don't get it. Why would you go for Jeff Niemann? Personally, I'd pick Tim Lincecum. Others would go for Philip Hughes. Fair enough. But Niemann?


and you don't just hafta look and lust and moan and dream about whatchu can't have because now you can buy EVERY SINGLE PAIR and you can custom order them too just in case they don't fit just perfect and


Whatever. They're shoes. They're made of dead horse and cover your calloused stinky feet.

Now, a #2 hitter who can get on base over 40% of the time and can turn the deuce, that's something to moan and dream about whatchu can't have.


anyhow, it is like you get to spend, uh, quality time (ahem) with the chicks in the si swimsuit issue or maybe jenna jamison you know what i'm saying


I fall for intelligence, personality, and a 95+ sinking fastball.

Raskolnikov Posted: April 23, 2007 at 12:01 AM (#2342816)


Yeah, whatever. When this Manolo Blahniks can come out of the bullpen, put up a 4/1 K/BB ratio, and K Brian McCann in a clutch situation, then I'll be impressed. In the meantime, I'll go with Joe Smith.

- sigh.
joe smith he might could throw baseballs ok, but he don't know a slingback from an ankle strap



I don't get it. Why would you go for Jeff Niemann? Personally, I'd pick Tim Lincecum. Others would go for Philip Hughes. Fair enough. But Niemann?

- well, neimann IS too tall. lincecum is MUCH better. roy oswalt size - juuuuuust right. and that other dude he plays for the yeccchies. but unless them boys can fit a high heel sandal ovah my tootsies they best stick to playing with their balls.


Whatever. They're shoes. They're made of dead horse and cover your calloused stinky feet.

- sigh. that is like me saying - dude, them boobies are globs of fat that make milk. why stare at fat when it is at that place on the chest?

besides, shoes are NOT made of dead horse. they are made of dead cown and goats and have pretty ribbons and sparkly stuff on em too.

and my feet are NOT calloused OR stinky. they are soft and pretty and have stros orange polish on the nails. manolos they would LUUUVVVVV my beautiful feet make them look GOOOOODDDDDDD


Now, a #2 hitter who can get on base over 40% of the time and can turn the deuce, that's something to moan and dream about whatchu can't have.

- well, our number 2 hitter CAN get on base over 40% of the time and he CAN turn the deuce. and he's kinda cute for a white boy. it's our #1 and #3 hitters i am worried about...




I fall for intelligence, personality, and a 95+ sinking fastball.

- um, i don't think females know how to throw a 95 mph sinking FB. so this means that there is no female you fall for or you are actually gay, which in case you are, i am sorry i mentioned females like something might could catch your interest.

- if you talking baseball, well, intelligence AND personality is barry bonds and brad ausmus, but i KNOW can't neither of them throw 95