Upton needs to payback Maddon for not making this a big deal.

Mental mistakes not good either.

(posted from another thread)

I finally got a look at the play and I'm going to agree with Maddon that this was a "lack of judgement" issue rather than a hustle issue. He was cruising out a (relatively) sure double with no one covering second. Give Tex all the credit for a really heads-up play, because not too often do you have the 1B sneaking up behind you in that situation. This falls into the "hidden-ball trick" category.

Upton certainly has his share of dog in him, and I think if the Rays can make a good deal they'll move him this off-season, but this specific play isn't going to be the tipping point.

As far as Maddon goes, I can't see any criticism of the way he's handled the team, but it can be disected here while he picks up his Manager of the Year trophy.

Madden could let this one go because the lesson taught itself. There's nothing he could add to it to make it hurt worse or linger longer, but a few misplaced words might easily have clouded the issue or distracted Upton from his shame. Letting it go was an easy call.

I was pleased to see a lot of good-to-hear quotes from Cliff Floyd this morning saying the team was going to take care of this issue.

"I think everybody in here will do everything possible to make sure it doesn't happen again. It's not in Joe's hands any more. It's in nobody's hands but ours," the 14-year veteran said.

The old guys should have been on this from the beginning. Anyone who can't figure out what veteran presense is for should try to imagine a respected veteran talking to a talented but frustrated young player after a public benching. And that should have happened repeatedly over the last couple weeks. It may have, we'll never know, but Upton has to respect someone enough to hear the message. If he can't hear a simple one like this then he's probably in for a hard life.

Maddon came up under Scioscia, and AFAIK Scioscia is not big on knocking players in public, so I am not surprised. It is the right move publicly; how it should be handled behind the scenes depends on what kind of guy Upton really is, which no one here knows.

I can't see any criticism of the way he's handled the team

There's been a lot of recent criticism of his handling of Upton, namely Maddon singling out Upton when there are 3 or 4 other guys on the team who also have hustle issues. On top of it, Maddon has done so at a time when the local media has really gotten on Upton's back, more so than the other players on the team.

I think if the Rays can make a good deal they'll move him this off-season

I don't think they have any intention of doing so.

Is there some online video yet?

I don't think they have any intention of doing so.

Nice new handle Jim. Fay is a wuss.

I agree. Maybe another front office would, but Friedman & Co. know that even a half-assed BJ Upton is still better than what they could get in return. Worst case scenario, turning BJ into a pariah should keep the rest of the team on the straight and narrow.

I agree. Maybe another front office would, but Friedman & Co. know that even a half-assed BJ Upton is still better than what they could get in return. Worst case scenario, turning BJ into a pariah should keep the rest of the team on the straight and narrow.

I disagree. This administration has quickly gotten rid of it's bad apples (Dukes, Young) and perceived problems (Hamilton). I can see a deal sending Upton somewhere for a CF and a prospect. If we see Tampa make a deal early in the off-season for an OF who can play center, Upton is not long for Tampa.

Upton isn't a bad apple though, he's well-liked by his teammates and considered to be a pretty nice guy. Just because the media is all over this story doesn't mean the Rays are going to act on it and get rid of such a talented player who has still been quite productive this season in spite of the power drop-off and occasional blunders. It's completely unfair to Upton that he keeps getting lumped in with Dukes and Young.

Speaking of Young, I hate the way the trade of him is constantly talked about as the Rays getting rid of an attitude problem when the trade made one hell of a lot of sense for the team to make. You'd swear that they dumped him for a lesser return instead of making a smart baseball move to improve the team that had the added bonus of improving the clubhouse. Neither you nor I has any idea of whether or not Young's attitude had anything to do with the trade.

See, Maddon cutting Upton slack for a baserunning blunder of the first order is another example of TA's and Eraser's criticism of Maddon- he's embarrassing a young player instead of helping him.

Actually I think Maddon - here - is finally doing what he should have done from the start, and defusing the situation. So better late than never, good for Maddon.

I disagree, AG. Maddon's previous actions allowed him to not punish BJ in this instance. BJ's acute embarrassment signals to me that the punishment finally started to sink in, and he realized how his lack of hustle could really let his teammates down. This isn't getting thrown out at first when if you try harder you make it a close play; this is getting tagged out on a sure double.

As a parent, one thing you learn is that children will constantly test limits, and will walk all over you if you let them. I'm very familiar with positive reinforcement and I try to use it as much as possible to encourage desired behaviors... but sometimes my daughter knowingly and willfully breaks a rule that my wife and I have laid down. When that happens, the carrot goes away and the stick comes out. Though she's only three, she still remembers one specific punishment from several months ago (she refused to stop acting out when leaving the ice cream store, so she had to go straight to bed without a bedtime story) and now will immediately improve her behavior when reminded of this. BJ Upton reminds me a lot of her.

Let's see. Now the slug can't make it to base on a gapper..even with no one covering. That's the Mount Everest of slugs everywhere. Upton's gonna be tellin his grankids about this one.

Two choice.. keep to message and up the punishment appropriately which would be bench time for the rest of the season.

or cave.

After runnin his mouth, cavin would seem to be like....impossible

and he's gettin away with it.

The Tarxus woopgasser is gonna need someone to write his memoirs, and if Maddon can stay sober = he's in

I side with AG. Kyle, you're advocating the carrot more than the stick but saying the stick is occasionally necessary. AG won't argue with that. I'm sure you'll agree that when you say you will enforce a punishment if children misbehave, you must see it through? Is that what Maddon's done here?

I'll be honest and admit I don't have a clue what Maddon means when he says it wasn't a lack of hustle, if he then says: "The assumption I’d like to make is we can get the extra base … if we are going to make assumptions.” He's either been clever in making it appear a different crime allowing him to avoid a punishment he doesn't want to inflict (maybe because Upton was contrite and embarrassed), or he genuinely believes (wrongly, IMO) that it was a different crime. Upton didn't run out a grounder because he assumed it was a certain out and that there was nothing to be gained from running hard. This is the same crime that he has committed just in a different context. Kevin and aljunquin are right about that.

If Kyle wants to compare management of athletes to looking after three-year-olds, I'd say that Maddon made a rod for his own back by instituting a zero tolerance policy on baserunning errors. Maddon has nowhere to go, no matter how sorry or embarrassed Upton may be, other than enforce, if not increase, the punishment. He's now lost face and has had to put an arm round someone who's sulked his way into getting attention. Upton's childish antics have forced Maddon to review his policy - so who won? It ain't even close!

However, maybe Maddon is finally being clever as Alou suggests and has decided that this is the better way of getting Upton to do what he wants. Maddon will lose this battle if it means he wins the war. Handling it this way has even fooled people into thinking that he has won the battle - as this thread has shown. But would he have been able to have the same reaction if the team had lost by a run?

Alternatively, he may just be giving up on Upton, trying to keep him sweet and on the team for the next 6 weeks knowing he'll be going the way of the other "bad apples" Dukes and Young in the offseason. Or is it simply that both he and Upton know that they can't afford to bench Upton or send him to AAA?

More important though is the next time this situation arises. Does this make Upton run out the next grounder happy that he got Maddon to back down? Or does Upton want to continue to show Maddon who is in control? Upton's pride won't allow him to be scared of Maddon's punishment, but maybe now he'll show some loyalty to the guy who protected him in the press. That's Maddon's only hope if for whatever reason he is unable to keep his promises.

Goes without sayin this is a new record. Stand's fielding percentage 08% BUT on grounders 0 percent. Gettin thrown out by an invisible man 0 percent.

Thus is a 0 percent probability that some effort wouldn't be futile. Getting the Manager to kiss your slaggard behind due to puttin it down to reasonable judgement..

Just call it off. Bonds-Baker stood for a long time, but this -

More important though is the next time this situation arises. Does this make Upton run out the next grounder happy that he got Maddon to back down? Or does Upton want to continue to show Maddon who is in control? Upton's pride won't allow him to be scared of Maddon's punishment, but maybe now he'll show some loyalty to the guy who protected him in the press. That's Maddon's only hope if for whatever reason he is unable to keep his promises.

Answer: Maddon gets ejected arguing a bad (horrible) call on a play where Upton hustled to beat out an infield single, then was called out because he was tagged when he was walking back to the bag.