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Thursday, September 15, 2011

Polito: Yankees’ Mariano Rivera is second only to Babe Ruth in franchise history

Just when I thought O’Connell’s Hoffman’s 600-saves weren’t legit or something would top the day…along comes…

One set the standard for any home run hitter to follow. The other has done the same for the modern closer. If true greatness is the ability to separate one’s self from everyone else, then no two players in Yankees history have done that better than the slugger and the closer.

Joe DiMaggio was great. But so was Mickey Mantle, the man who replaced him in the Yankee Stadium outfield. Yogi Berra was great. But a generation of Yankees fans remember that Bill Dickey, another Hall of Famer, was one of the best-hitting catchers of all-time, too.

There is no but with Ruth and Rivera. They set the standard at what they do — Ruth at hitting the ball over the outfield fence, Rivera at emerging from behind it to trot to the mound.

...The approach has put him on the verge of the all-time saves record, and beyond that, among the greats in baseball history. And in the debate about the greatest Yankees, it has elevated him to a very exclusive club of two men different in every way but their dominance.

Ruth.

Then Rivera.

Repoz Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:00 PM | 68 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, sabermetrics, yankees

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   1. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:26 PM (#3925615)
Plus they both made plays that ended World Series in a loss for the Yankees (Ruth with his caught stealing, Rivera with Luis Gonzalez).

Anyway, guess you gotta write an column about something!
   2. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:33 PM (#3925621)
Ruth, Rivera and then Graig Nettles, I guess.
   3. BDC Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:34 PM (#3925623)
They set the standard at what they do

Joe Pepitone was unsurpassed at putting popcorn under his foreskin.
   4. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:34 PM (#3925624)
Anyway, guess you gotta write an column about something!

Yeah, but this is so wrong it hurts.

If you were assembling an all-time team, would Rivera even be in the first 20 Yankees chosen?

Even from his own era, I think Jeter, William, Posada and Pettitte were more valuable players.
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:37 PM (#3925626)
This is so dumb. Babe Ruth didn't have nearly as many saves as Rivera, so how is Mo second?
   6. BDC Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:37 PM (#3925627)
If you were assembling an all-time team, would Rivera even be in the first 20 Yankees chosen?

Actually, yes; you usually do that by position, and after you had eight position starters and a rotation, he'd be the next guy you'd choose.

And his number is already retired ...
   7. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:39 PM (#3925630)
There is no but with Ruth and Rivera. They set the standard at what they do — Ruth at hitting the ball over the outfield fence, Rivera at emerging from behind it to trot to the mound.

Don't forget Gene Michael and the hidden ball trick. So that makes three.
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:40 PM (#3925631)
They set the standard at what they do — Ruth at hitting the ball over the outfield fence, Rivera at emerging from behind it to trot to the mound.


AJ Burnett at uncorking pitches to the backstop....
   9. Nasty Nate Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:51 PM (#3925641)
What's the deal with the nickname 'Babe' back in old-timey land? Was it given to someone who was young-looking for their age? someone who was good-looking? someone who actually was younger than the nickname-giver?
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:51 PM (#3925642)
Actually, yes; you usually do that by position, and after you had eight position starters and a rotation, he'd be the next guy you'd choose.

And his number is already retired ...


Sorry, I didn't mean an all Yankee team. I meant, if we were drafting some kind of "super-league" (multiple teams) of all-time players, where would he go.

So, Mantle and DiMaggio could be picked as CF's for different teams.
   11. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:52 PM (#3925643)
If you were assembling an all-time team, would Rivera even be in the first 20 Yankees chosen?

Of course not, but that's not what the author is saying. You can figure that much out just by looking at the excerpt above. If he were claiming that Rivera has been more valuable than Dimaggio or Mantle or Gehrig, then your response would be relevant. But the only proper response to the column as it's written is "Well, duh, but what of it?"
   12. BDC Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:54 PM (#3925646)
Ah, got it. Yes, on the theory that a lot of guys could close for you, but very few could (let's say) catch like Berra or Dickey or Munson or Posada, probably not. The Yankee list of all-time greats is pretty well-stocked.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:54 PM (#3925647)
What's the deal with the nickname 'Babe' back in old-timey land? Was it given to someone who was young-looking for their age? someone who was good-looking? someone who actually was younger than the nickname-giver?

He was only 19 when he was signed by the Orioles and:

When the other players on the Orioles caught sight of Ruth, they nicknamed him "Jack's newest babe"
(wiki)

I assume it was base on age, and his face does kind of look like a baby.
   14. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:57 PM (#3925650)
Of course not, but that's not what the author is saying. You can figure that much out just by looking at the excerpt above. If he were claiming that Rivera has been more valuable than Dimaggio or Mantle or Gehrig, then your response would be relevant. But the only proper response to the column as it's written is "Well, duh, but what of it?"

Well that's not a very interesting discussion.
   15. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 01:57 PM (#3925651)
Did he really write this entire column without mentioning Gehrig even once?
   16. BDC Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:01 PM (#3925653)
Well, heck, what was Gehrig unsurpassed at? Dying? Everybody does that :)
   17. Paul D(uda) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:02 PM (#3925654)
Did Mo really set the standard? I think Eck 'set the standard', and then Mo did it better than anyone.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:07 PM (#3925659)
They set the standard at what they do — Ruth at hitting the ball over the outfield fence, Rivera at emerging from behind it to trot to the mound.

I also have a problem with crediting dominance at a position where 95% of the best pitchers don't compete b/c they're playing a more important position.

Ruth dominated all offensive players. Rivera dominated all the pitchers who weren't good enough to start.

I would think Gehrig being the best 1B ever, or Berra being a consensus top-2 C of all time (tied with Bench) is much more impressive.
   19. Rants Mulliniks Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:13 PM (#3925662)
I read the article, and I don't get the impression he was saying that Mo was the second-most valuable Yankee, just that he has set a standard for his position in a way only Ruth had done before. I can't really disagree with that.
   20. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:16 PM (#3925665)
The Yankee list of all-time greats is pretty well-stocked.

True, but it is quite possible that the current era has the most all-time Yankees playing together at one time. Jeter is a consensus choice, and A-Rod & Cano are probably just a question of how much service time to qualify. If Closer is a position, you have 4 with Rivera, which tops the Mantle, Berra, Ford trio (or the one-season overlap of Ford & DiMaggio, along with Berra).
   21. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:29 PM (#3925674)
I think Eck 'set the standard', and then Mo did it better than anyone.

Agreed.

What's crazy is thinking back to Eckersley's insane 1988-1992 closer peak - and then realizing Rivera has done the same thing, only for more than three times as many seasons.
   22. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:33 PM (#3925679)
Well, heck, what was Gehrig unsurpassed at? Dying? Everybody does that :)


If we ever meet up and I don't give you a boot to the seat of your pants for writing that, then YOU'LL be the luckiest man on the face of the earth.
   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:37 PM (#3925683)
True, but it is quite possible that the current era has the most all-time Yankees playing together at one time. Jeter is a consensus choice, and A-Rod & Cano are probably just a question of how much service time to qualify. If Closer is a position, you have 4 with Rivera, which tops the Mantle, Berra, Ford trio (or the one-season overlap of Ford & DiMaggio, along with Berra).

Cano (28.6 WAR,4.8/162G) has a looooong way to go to catch Randolph (NYY only, 49.8 WAR, 4.8/162) or Lazzeri (NYY only, 46.6 WAR, 4.8/162).

Funny how the per 162 G WAR are identical.
   24. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:40 PM (#3925688)
If we ever meet up and I don't give you a boot to the seat of your pants for writing that, then YOU'LL be the luckiest man on the face of the earth.


Then Bob Dernier Cri will have surpassed Gehrig in the one thing he was unsurpassed at.
   25. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:41 PM (#3925691)

If we ever meet up and I don't give you a boot to the seat of your pants for writing that, then YOU'LL be the luckiest man on the face of the earth.


Sorry, I was busy helping Mr. Loria count all that revenue sharing money he gets from the Yankees. Did you say something?
   26. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:41 PM (#3925692)
he doesn't even have a disease named after him
   27. Swoboda is freedom Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:44 PM (#3925696)
What's crazy is thinking back to Eckersley's insane 1988-1992 closer peak - and then realizing Rivera has done the same thing, only for more than three times as many seasons.

This has always been the amazing thing about Mariano. A lot of closers have put it together for 4-5 seasons. Papelbon with the Sox, K Rod with the Angels. Doing it for 14 seasons is the amazing part. That and the post season heroics.
   28. Russ Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:46 PM (#3925701)
he doesn't even have a disease named after him


But he does have a pasta sauce named after him.
   29. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:47 PM (#3925702)
Third place: Scott Brosius
   30. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:47 PM (#3925703)
Of course not, but that's not what the author is saying. You can figure that much out just by looking at the excerpt above. If he were claiming that Rivera has been more valuable than Dimaggio or Mantle or Gehrig, then your response would be relevant. But the only proper response to the column as it's written is "Well, duh, but what of it?"

Well that's not a very interesting discussion.


Didn't say it was, but it's not as if pointing out that Mickey Mantle was more valuable than Mariano Rivera is exactly breaking new grounds in insight, either. Does every discussion about players have to wind up with nothing but a bunch of dueling WAR or EqA numbers that you could train a ####### monkey to cut and paste?
   31. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:50 PM (#3925707)
Didn't say it was, but it's not as if pointing out that Mickey Mantle was more valuable than Mariano Rivera is exactly breaking new grounds in insight, either. Does every discussion about players have to wind up with nothing but a bunch of dueling WAR or EqA numbers that you could train a ####### monkey to cut and paste?

Well, my argument isn't about WAR, since I'm saying a lot of players with less WAR would be chosen first b/c of the nature of the closer position.

Andy Pettitte has less (fewer?) WAR than Rivera, and I thing he's a better ballplayer. Not putting Rivera in the top-20 Yankees is explicitly rejecting a WAR ranking.
   32. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:52 PM (#3925710)
Sorry, I was busy helping Mr. Loria count all that revenue sharing money he gets from the Yankees. Did you say something?


Boy, if Loria can only afford a stooge like you to do his most important work he must be in worse shape than I thought.
   33. AROM Posted: September 15, 2011 at 02:56 PM (#3925716)
"This has always been the amazing thing about Mariano. A lot of closers have put it together for 4-5 seasons. Papelbon with the Sox, K Rod with the Angels. Doing it for 14 seasons is the amazing part. That and the post season heroics."

To put it in perspective, think about all the closers who came up after Mo, established dominance, and are gone from the scene while Mo keeps going. Like Eric Gagne. I still think he's got a shot to outlast Papelbon.
   34. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 15, 2011 at 03:03 PM (#3925734)
Boy, if Loria can only afford a stooge like you to do his most important work he must be in worse shape than I thought.

Thanks for making it about me.
   35. Dale Sams Posted: September 15, 2011 at 03:23 PM (#3925765)
Well, heck, what was Gehrig unsurpassed at?


Grand Salamis.

I dreamed BITD that Manny would take that away as a Red Sox...but ...alas...
   36. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 03:26 PM (#3925770)
If you were assembling an all-time team, would Rivera even be in the first 20 Yankees chosen?

Of course not, but that's not what the author is saying. You can figure that much out just by looking at the excerpt above. If he were claiming that Rivera has been more valuable than Dimaggio or Mantle or Gehrig, then your response would be relevant. But the only proper response to the column as it's written is "Well, duh, but what of it?"


Andy, he is claiming that Rivera is second only to Ruth in greatness as defined by dominance in his role. See here:

One set the standard for any home run hitter to follow. The other has done the same for the modern closer. If true greatness is the ability to separate one’s self from everyone else, then no two players in Yankees history have done that better than the slugger and the closer.

...

The approach has put him on the verge of the all-time saves record, and beyond that, among the greats in baseball history. And in the debate about the greatest Yankees, it has elevated him to a very exclusive club of two men different in every way but their dominance.

Ruth.

Then Rivera.

...

His place in Yankees history, however, is a more nuanced debate, since few franchises have had more Hall of Famers filling their lineup card over the past century. Even then, when you consider how the two men have defined — and will always define — their respective roles in the game, it’s really not that complicated, either.

Ruth.

Then Rivera.


He's saying that Rivera is the second greatest Yankee because he has been the second most dominant "in his role."

The problem is that this is basically Tallest Midget territory. Relievers are for the most part failed starters (Rivera being no exception, though obviously he didn't get enough of a chance to start), and pitchers for the most part pitch better in relief.

Move Pedro or Clemens or Johnson into the "closer" role, and suddenly Rivera has legitimate competition. John Smoltz certainly didn't have any trouble closing. A 163 ERA+ in four seasons, with 1.7 BB/9 and 9.5 K/9. Led the league with 55 saves one year.
   37. Gamingboy Posted: September 15, 2011 at 03:26 PM (#3925771)
Lou Gehrig was actually born and raised in New York City. That has to count for something.
   38. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 03:32 PM (#3925781)
It’s more amazing that the latter has accomplished this in an era when so many of the superstars are tarnished or diminished. Ruth’s accomplishments are part history, part fable. We see him in grainy black-and-white film clips, not in the high-definition screens of today.

Rivera has dominated through the Steroid Era, through an offensive explosion in the sport, straight into his 40s. What’s more remarkable? Six-hundred saves in a career, or 41 at age 41?


What's hilarious about this is that the author pronounces Rivera clean. He has no idea.
   39. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 03:40 PM (#3925789)
What's hilarious about this is that the author pronounces Rivera clean. He has no idea.


If an official investigation lead by an active member of Red Sox management and confirmed Friend of Bud couldn't turn up anything, there ain't much there. Papi and Manny were guzzling Dominican Milkshakes by the gallon while Bud's boys were launching a worldwide manhunt for Chuck Knoblauch.
   40. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 15, 2011 at 03:42 PM (#3925791)
Move Pedro or Clemens or Johnson into the "closer" role, and suddenly Rivera has legitimate competition.

I think there's probably a pretty good argument that you would not need a pitcher as good as those guys to give Rivera some competition as greatest closer.
   41. Dale Sams Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:02 PM (#3925818)
Papi and Manny were guzzling Dominican Milkshakes by the gallon while Bud's boys were launching a worldwide manhunt for Chuck Knoblauch.


For the billionth time, this is like blaming Mitchell for not solving the Boston Strangler case.
   42. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:11 PM (#3925836)
For the billionth time, this is like blaming Mitchell for not solving the Boston Strangler case.


I wouldn't expect one of Bud's cronies to solve the Mystery of the Missing Cookies at Fat Kid Camp.
   43. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:12 PM (#3925839)
Cano (28.6 WAR,4.8/162G) has a looooong way to go to catch Randolph (NYY only, 49.8 WAR, 4.8/162) or Lazzeri (NYY only, 46.6 WAR, 4.8/162).

Cano is only 28, so he has a good chance (assuming he stays beyond the upcoming 2 option years of his contract) although it may be a bit closer than I first thought.
   44. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:16 PM (#3925846)
Grand Salamis.

I dreamed BITD that Manny would take that away as a Red Sox...but ...alas...
A-Rod is only one behind Gehrig, so he'll probably break it in a couple of years.
   45. SoSH U at work Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:17 PM (#3925849)
I wouldn't expect one of Bud's cronies to solve the Mystery of the Missing Cookies at Fat Kid Camp.


To be fair, that sounds like a terribly difficult mystery to solve.
   46. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:17 PM (#3925850)
I think there's probably a pretty good argument that you would not need a pitcher as good as those guys to give Rivera some competition as greatest closer.


Finding guys to be as good as Rivera is easy, finding guys to be as good as Rivera for as long as Rivera is incredibly difficult. For whatever reason closers have a tough time remaining elite for extended periods of time. I don't think we can confidently say that Pedro or Clemens or anyone else could have duplicated what Rivera has done because of the health factor.
   47. SoSH U at work Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:22 PM (#3925858)
For whatever reason closers have a tough time remaining elite for extended periods of time.


I think the fact that very few of them are elite talents to begin with is the primary reason behind this.
   48. GeoffB Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:25 PM (#3925865)
Sheppard.

Then Ruth.

Then Rivera.

Then Monahan.



Fixed.
   49. Dale Sams Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:33 PM (#3925870)
A-Rod is only one behind Gehrig, so he'll probably break it in a couple of years.


See..I didn't even know that. GS's are a kind of silly matter of opportunity stat, BUT it was good enough to get its own baseball card way back when. Am I just that out of the loop, or does the media not want to play up a "cheating D-Bag" breaking a legend's record?
   50. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#3925871)
I wouldn't expect one of Bud's cronies to solve the Mystery of the Missing Cookies at Fat Kid Camp.

To be fair, that sounds like a terribly difficult mystery to solve.


The crumbs, Watson. Follow the crumbs.
   51. JRVJ Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:36 PM (#3925876)
I'll make the same point here as I made on a Joe Pos thread yesterday: Mariano was no longer a starter when he discovered the cutter which made him into MARIANO RIVERA (yes, his 1996 season was awesome, but what turned him into an amazing Evergreen pitcher is the cutter).

So objectively, we don't really know if MARIANO RIVERA W/ CUTTER would have failed as a starter, because he was never given a chance to start due to the Yanks preferring to have him close.
   52. SoSH U at work Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:40 PM (#3925878)
Am I just that out of the loop, or does the media not want to play up a "cheating D-Bag" breaking a legend's record?


I imagine the reason is that there's no real chase to track. Arod may go a whole season without hitting a GS, so it's not as if you can cover it like you would other record pursuits.
   53. Mom makes botox doctors furious Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:42 PM (#3925881)
"But he does have a pasta sauce named after him."

Whatever. They re-named The Côte d'Azur in his honor; that kinda tops the pasta thing..
   54. Gotham Dave Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:44 PM (#3925884)
Is Rivera more valuable than Pettitte? Well, it's hard to claim that Rivera could've done what Pettitte did. But I don't think it's much easier to claim that Pettitte could've done what Rivera did.

And Rivera is a "failed starter" in the sense that he had great minor league stats and then 10 bad starts in the bigs. There's an alternate universe where Halladay is a closer because he was a "failed starter" and people are saying he can't be taken seriously as a great pitcher because he couldn't have been a great starter.
   55. BDC Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:50 PM (#3925890)
finding guys to be as good as Rivera for as long as Rivera is incredibly difficult

For fun I searched on B-Ref for relievers who have had seasons of 60 or more appearances with an ERA+ of 200 or greater. (Rivera's career average is 67 games pitched and his career ERA+ is 205.)

There have been 177 such seasons by 133 different pitchers. That ratio in itself tells you a lot; the vast majority of pitchers who do it, do it just once. And it's not a rare feat; as you might imagine, 163 of those seasons were in the last 30 years.

Several pitchers have done it twice. Keith Foulke, Robb Nen, and John Wetteland did it three times. Billy Wagner had four such seasons, Joe Nathan five.

Rivera did it ten times.

I guess TFA has this much of a point: what Babe Ruth was to home-run hitting, or Rickey Henderson to base-stealing, or Nolan Ryan to strikeouts, or Craig Biggio to getting hit by the pitch, Mariano Rivera has been to closing.
   56. Nasty Nate Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:50 PM (#3925892)
The crumbs, Watson. Follow the crumbs.


with cookies at a fat camp, I don't think there are any crumbs uneaten
   57. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:52 PM (#3925894)
So objectively, we don't really know if MARIANO RIVERA W/ CUTTER would have failed as a starter, because he was never given a chance to start due to the Yanks preferring to have him close.


But we do know that relieving is easier than starting and that many relievers are failed starters and that Rivera was arguably pampered more than any other pitcher in history.
   58. Ray (RDP) Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:52 PM (#3925895)
There's an alternate universe where Halladay is a closer because he was a "failed starter" and people are saying he can't be taken seriously as a great pitcher because he couldn't have been a great starter.


Yes. And?
   59. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: September 15, 2011 at 04:54 PM (#3925898)
Interestingly, in 1995, Rivera was pretty much the same pitcher the first time through a batting order that he has been his entire career.
   60. JRVJ Posted: September 15, 2011 at 05:04 PM (#3925908)
.....and that Rivera was arguably pampered more than any other pitcher in history.


Actually, we don't know this. You made this argument in another thread a few months back, I blew the argument out of the water and you purposefully chose not to answer my counterarguments.

Anybody interested can read that thread here.
   61. A triple short of the cycle Posted: September 15, 2011 at 05:14 PM (#3925920)
The Yankees had a pretty good closer in the early 80s. He's even in the Hall of Fame.
   62. Gotham Dave Posted: September 15, 2011 at 06:39 PM (#3926033)
There's an alternate universe where Halladay is a closer because he was a "failed starter" and people are saying he can't be taken seriously as a great pitcher because he couldn't have been a great starter.


Yes. And?
...And, Rivera didn't really FAIL as a starter as much as he wasn't given a chance. In the alternate universe there's somebody saying the same thing about Halladay - who obviously WAS capable of being an elite starter, because he is - and then somebody else saying "Yes. And?" for some reason. I guess I mixed value into my point about ability, and if that caused confusion, my bad.

EDIT: Greg Maddux's first full(ish) season was 155 innings with a 76 ERA+. Over the first two seasons of Randy Johnson's career (at a relatively advanced age) he threw 186 innings with an 88 ERA+. Rivera's bad ten starts in 1995 say absolutely nothing about what his ceiling as a starter was, and it's absurd to suggest otherwise.
   63. Walt Davis Posted: September 15, 2011 at 07:58 PM (#3926140)
Some Hoyt Wilhelm seasons with less than 100 IP (not including his "young" years) ... age, IP, ERA+

39, 93, 192
43, 81, 192
44, 89, 230
45, 93, 185
46, 78, 160

In case you're worried he was slacking off, from ages 40-42 he threw 411 innings with a 158 ERA+.
   64. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: September 15, 2011 at 08:53 PM (#3926190)
Sheppard.

Then Ruth.

Then Rivera.

Then Monahan.



Fixed.


How about that!
   65. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: September 15, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#3926203)
Charlie Silvera is tops in WSRWARR (World Series rings:WAR ratio). And on the Yankees, that really means something.
   66. Big fan Posted: September 15, 2011 at 09:22 PM (#3926216)
People: please stop saying Rivera had 10 bad starts. He had 10 starts,3 were quality including an 8 inning 11 K no run game. Overall the 10 starts were bad, but it was not 10 bad starts. And as many ahve aleady noted, there are many pitchers who had bad first years and became quite good later.

Not so deep down, I wish the Yankees would have started Rivera in 2004 ALCS Game 7. Tell him to pitch as long as he can. Then just roll any other decent guy (Mussina, El Duque) out for an inning or two. Certainly a better option than Kevin Brown or Javy V.
   67. Famous Original Joe C Posted: September 15, 2011 at 09:28 PM (#3926220)
Charlie Silvera is tops in WSRWARR (World Series rings:WAR ratio). And on the Yankees, that really means something.

6 rings to 1 WAR. Wow.

However, if you count only his Yankee time, Luis Sojo managed to snag four rings while posting -0.8 WAR.
   68. Gotham Dave Posted: September 15, 2011 at 10:03 PM (#3926255)
66 - That's a good point, and of course I've been arguing for Rivera's case as possible starter material by saying "ten bad starts" because it's such a tiny number. But that's not even quite fair as he did have some good starts, especially that game you mention (which was against the White Sox on 7/4/95).

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