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Tuesday, July 10, 2012

Posnanski: Boo Boos

You got Joe straight trippin’, boo!

I hear people talking now about how there should be a “rule” that a local player should be in the Home Run Derby. That’s seems impossibly dumb to me—we need a rule for something that logical? Rule: You should invite the bride’s parents to the wedding. Rule: When hosting a charity roast, invite people who know the subject. Isn’t it kind of obvious that you might want a local player in something as aimless and trivial as the Home Run Derby? It’s a meaningless exhibition event inside a meaningless exhibition weekend—throw the local fans a bone, for crying out loud. Maybe baseball messed up by putting [Robinson] Cano in the line of fire rather than just insisting that a local player be chosen, but come on. This isn’t that hard.

Some found the booing offensive. Some thought it was classless. More than one person ripped KC to me, and later in print and comment. I have to admit, I didn’t see it that way. At all. For one thing, Cano is a Yankee, and the day it becomes uncool to boo the Yankees is the day we need to reevaluate what the national pastime is all about. For another, it’s just booing. I’m not a booer myself, and I usually dislike the “fans paid their ticket they can do what they want” argument, but in this case—you’re telling me that fans who pay 200 bucks a pop to sit in the upper deck to watch executive batting practice should cheer the guy who didn’t take the local player? Seriously? This is Wimbledon now? ...

I have no doubt that Cano’s struggles—the fouling back pitches, the way his long fly balls hit the wall—made the fans boo him more. If there’s one thing fans love more than anything it is their ability to affect the game. You’ve no doubt seen the self-congratulatory joy of people waving behind the backboard when a guy misses a free throw. I suspect the fans came in planning to boo Cano, but then they saw him foul that ball back. They thought: Hey, this is working. So they booed him a little louder. And a little louder. And a little louder. Until, at the end, the whole stadium wanted desperately for Cano to hit zero home runs, and the boos expressed that hope.

From what I can tell, Cano took the boos in stride. He tweeted out a couple of funny little bits—“I can’t believe I have so many fans in KC lol”—and he’s now part of Home Run Derby lore. I have little doubt he’ll be fine—he’s one of the great hitters in the game. I also have little doubt he will get booed whenever he comes to KC—it’s grown into legend now. The only thing I wish had happened was for [Billy] Butler himself to have come out during the Derby, put his arm around Cano, maybe waved a white flag. That would have been cool. And maybe, with three or four outs to go, Cano would have turned the bat over to Butler. They should really have a lot more fun at these things.

The District Attorney Posted: July 10, 2012 at 11:28 PM | 187 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: all-star game, home run derby, joe posnanski, robinson cano, royals

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   1.     Hey Gurl Posted: July 11, 2012 at 01:06 AM (#4179827)
Isn’t it kind of obvious that you might want a local player in something as aimless and trivial as the Home Run Derby?


Since the home run derby has been around for a million years and this has never been the case, no.
   2. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: July 11, 2012 at 01:42 AM (#4179840)
Cano is a Yankee, and the day it becomes uncool to boo the Yankees is the day we need to reevaluate what the national pastime is all about.

If I ever find myself in a bar with Posnanski, I'm buying his next drink.
   3. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: July 11, 2012 at 01:47 AM (#4179842)
The only thing I wish had happened was for [Billy] Butler himself to have come out during the Derby, put his arm around Cano, maybe waved a white flag. That would have been cool. And maybe, with three or four outs to go, Cano would have turned the bat over to Butler. They should really have a lot more fun at these things.
That would have been really hard to pull off, without seeming rehearsed. But if Cano had turned around, at any point (even the gold ball round), and pointed at Butler, and said "y'all win, get up here, dude", that would have been very awesome. Especially if he correctly pronounced "y'all", since I grew up in MO and never really managed to do it until I lived in TN.
   4. Walt Davis Posted: July 11, 2012 at 05:27 AM (#4179860)
You should invite the bride’s parents to the wedding

Not unless mom or dad is at least in double figures in HR at the break.

I find this notion silly. A homer in the celebrity softball game by all means. A Royal on the coaching staff sure. What if the game had been in San Fran, ya gonna invite Posey and his 10 HR? Or SD, is it going to be Headley? (Quentin not a bad choice actually)

What I want to know is where was Trevor Plouffe?

   5. boteman Posted: July 11, 2012 at 05:55 AM (#4179862)
What I want to know is where was Trevor Plouffe?

Getting his nails done. I mean, how can we be expected to take a guy seriously when his name is Trevor Plouffe?
   6. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: July 11, 2012 at 07:03 AM (#4179864)
Besides, Cano could have ended the booing any time he liked. All he had to do was hit a few home runs.
Uhhhhhh...no.
   7. jingoist Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:47 AM (#4179894)
I wonder what the name choices being considered by Mr and Mrs Plouffe were prior to landing on Trevor?
Chauncey?
Jesus?
Tyronne?
Emerson?
   8. Fanshawe Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:56 AM (#4179900)
What if the game had been in San Fran, ya gonna invite Posey and his 10 HR? Or SD, is it going to be Headley?


Or what if the Royals got the game? Their best HR hitter is tied for 16th in the league.
   9. Dan Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:04 AM (#4179902)
Or what if the Royals got the game? Their best HR hitter is tied for 16th in the league.


Just ahead of the guy who won the HRD!
   10. villageidiom Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:06 AM (#4179905)
Or what if the Royals got the game? Their best HR hitter is tied for 16th in the league.
Butler has 16 HR at the all-star break this year. Last year, a player was picked for the derby having only 15 HR at the break. That player was Robinson Cano.
   11. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:11 AM (#4179908)
I find this notion silly. A homer in the celebrity softball game by all means. A Royal on the coaching staff sure. What if the game had been in San Fran, ya gonna invite Posey and his 10 HR? Or SD, is it going to be Headley? (Quentin not a bad choice actually)


I don't see why not. Its not like the people chosen for this are the top four HR hitters in each league. But maybe Billy Butler doesn't live up to the storied history of HR Derby names like Damion Easley, Brandon Inge and Hee Sop Choi.
   12. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:18 AM (#4179918)
Hee! Seop! Choi!

(That was a thing, right?)
   13.     Hey Gurl Posted: July 11, 2012 at 09:44 AM (#4179937)
Watching Butler strike out feebly last night on several pitches out of the zone was delicious, I must admit.
   14. jayjay Posted: July 11, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4180397)
Maybe we should write it down among the Unwritten Rules that we hear so much about.
   15. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 11, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4180424)
It's a _derby_, not an athletic contest of any importance. Advertising.
Of course you should invite a local...
   16. Walt Davis Posted: July 11, 2012 at 06:52 PM (#4180556)
I wonder what the name choices being considered by Mr and Mrs Plouffe were prior to landing on Trevor?

Beavis.

I didn't mean to suggest that Butler wasn't qualified just that a hard and fast "rule" is going to lead to a really odd pick at some point.

Now, amazingly, the b-r bullpen has all the HR derby results. There was not a local batter on the team in:

2011, 2010, 2008 (at Yankee Stadium!), 2007, 2006, 2003, 1996, 1995, 1994, 1993, 1989, 1986.

2009 was Pujols, a good choice anywhere.
2005 was the world vs. USA year and IRod was a Tigers rep
2004 was Berkman
1992 the Padres had two guys (Sheff and McGriff)

Anyway, it was common to have a homer in the early days and again in the height of the sillyball era (when everybody had a 40 HR guy so that looked good). But, from 2006-2011, the only homer to make it was Pujols and that includes the game at Yankee Stadium. I don't recall Yankees fans booing the AL players ... but then they're well-known for being classy.

Of course it's possible that in some of those years there was a homer on the squad who bowed out due to "injury."
   17. BDC Posted: July 11, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4180590)
Dirk Plouffe … Butch Plouffe … Rocky Plouffe …? on the whole, if you're a Plouffe to start with, Trevor is probably the way to go: don't try to fight the surname too much.
   18. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4180606)
Butch Plouffe

If lesbian porn stars have porn names, that's gotta be a great one.
   19. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:28 PM (#4180611)
Dirk Plouffe … Butch Plouffe … Rocky Plouffe

Biff Plouffe
   20. Don Malcolm Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:41 PM (#4180614)
Hey, at least he's not named Brandon or Josh...we have enough of those guys now to cover two alternate universes of baseball history.

How about...

DRUNGO PLOUFFE??
   21.     Hey Gurl Posted: July 11, 2012 at 08:59 PM (#4180618)
It's a _derby_, not an athletic contest of any importance. Advertising.


Why not just make the whole thing Royals, then. Let the fans pick which 8 Royals they want to see. It's not like it's important, so therefore let's make it as stupid as possible.
   22. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 11, 2012 at 11:52 PM (#4180702)
Chauncey?
Jesus?
Tyronne?
Emerson?


I say it's Cholmondeley & I say the hell with it.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:11 AM (#4180725)
Biff Plouffe

Or a certain former Giants prospect could enter a civil union with Mr. Plouffe, take his name and be Boof Plouffe.

(I know, too far to go)
   24. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:20 AM (#4180734)
Raif Plouffe FTW
   25. gehrig97 Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:20 AM (#4180773)
The best approach I've seen to diffusing the boo-birds came from Darryl Strawberry. It was Darryl's first visit back to Shea Stadium as a Dodger, and the fans (I among them) were booing mercilessly.

During the middle innings, the boos and "Daaa-ryyyyllll" chants were raining down on him in waves. In response, Darryl turns to the fans along the rightfield line, and starts waving his arms in time with the chants--like a maestro conducting an orchestra. Thousands of people laugh at the same time, Darryl laughs, and from that point on the boos were delivered with a wink and a nod--it was like booing a pro wrestling heel.

Later in the game, of course, he clangs one off the scoreboard in right center. Ah, Darryl.
   26. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: July 12, 2012 at 08:33 AM (#4180776)
I don't recall Yankees fans booing the AL players ... but then they're well-known for being classy.

I won't swear to having perfect recall of the Home Run Derby, but I think the team captain aspect of things may be new. So there may not have been a particular person at whom Yankee fans could direct any ire they may have had.
   27. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:20 AM (#4180857)
Speaking of Posnanski boo boos, hows about that Joe Paterno! Great call, Joe!
   28. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4180874)
Speaking of Posnanski boo boos, hows about that Joe Paterno! Great call, Joe!

According to the Freeh report, Paterno was in on the cover-up from as far back as 1998. Had full knowledge of Sandusky's behavior, and went to major lengths in multiple instances for multiple incidents to keep Sandusky's actions away from the police and the press and to allow Sandusky to continue to rape and molest young boys. A towering paragon of morality, that Joe Paterno.

That Posnanski book on the greatness of Joe Paterno (set for a symbolically appropriate Father's Day release!) is going to be so f**king tasteful.

Seriously, Poz can never actually write this book, can he?

EDIT: Dear god, reading the Key Findings of the Freeh Report...it's devastating. I'm remembering all my anger at Posnanski for defending Paterno all over again. (Needless to say I recognize that the real monsters here were Sandusky and Paterno, as well as the PSU leadership, and not Poz...but ugh, he defended actual honest-to-goodness Evil, and still hasn't given an accounting for it.)
   29. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:38 AM (#4180879)
It's going to be interesting to see if Poz comes out with some kind of statement/article about the whole thing.
   30. TomH Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4180880)
This site has always been so classy at never bringing up other foibles of the person featured in the topic du jour.....
   31. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4180893)
It's going to be interesting to see if Poz can ever really be taken seriously as a judge of, well, anything more weighty than the All-Star Home Run Derby.


   32. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4180908)
Posnanski did a big thing badly in the aftermath of the story.

He has an opportunity to get it right, and to be the first to get it really right, with a story of Joe Paterno and the institutions of Penn State football, how they tried to do a number of good things and in time rotted awfully from the inside. An April story in the Times about Posnanski and Paterno had the most recent statement from Poz that I've seen:
In an interview last week with Dave Kindred of the National Sports Journalism Center, Posnanski said he hoped to finish the book by the end of April. He said the biography had become a “very, very different book,” in light of the startling final chapters of Paterno’s life.

“But in many ways, it’s still the same,” Posnanski said. “It’s still about his life — a life that changed dramatically at the end.”
To get this book right will require Posnanski to do a sort of reporting and writing that in his career he's usually shied away from. I'm worried he's going to get it wrong again. But since he has the opportunity to get it right, I'm willing to wait. (Apparently the book drops August 21st, so I don't have to wait that long in reserve of full judgment.)
   33. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4180918)
Why not just make the whole thing Royals, then.

'Cause it's nationally televised. Include a local to juice up the crowd that the people on TV hear.
   34. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:31 AM (#4180925)
It's going to be interesting to see if Poz can ever really be taken seriously as a judge of, well, anything more weighty than the All-Star Home Run Derby.

Well, I'll take the non-grump version Matt puts forward.
   35. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4180929)
Poz writes really nice, but has he ever shown any ability to take on truly weighty matters?
   36. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4180931)
According to the Freeh report, Paterno was in on the cover-up from as far back as 1998. Had full knowledge of Sandusky's behavior, and went to major lengths in multiple instances for multiple incidents to keep Sandusky's actions away from the police and the press and to allow Sandusky to continue to rape and molest young boys.


Is this true? I've never heard this before. People jumped down Poz's throat for basically saying, "let's wait until the facts are in". Is that worthy of tarring-and-feathering?

   37. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4180932)
I can't believe Joe Posnanski said nothing while Joe Paterno molested all those kids under his watch.
   38. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4180933)
I posted this in the college football thread, but I guess we're talking about it here.

Freeh Report

"Curley emails Spanier and Schultz, discussing Sandusky's retirement options: "Joe did give him the option to continue to coach as long as he was the coach."


Live Blog: Washington Post

At the press conference, Freeh reiterates again and again that top Penn State officials showed no concern for the safety and welfare of Sandusky’s victims. They didn’t even talk to Sandusky about it. “In short, nothing was done and Sandusky was allowed to continue with impunity,” Freeh said.

Freeh said that Paterno received a report from a younger coach that Sandusky had behaved inappropriately with a young boy in a locker room shower, but delayed passing along the information because he did not “want to interfere” with people’s weekend plans. At no time did the officials try to identify the boy, Freeh said.


Dan Wetzel: Freeh Report assigns blame to Joe Paterno, other Penn State officials for Jerry Sandusky's crimes

The Freeh Report concluded that, as many had assumed, Paterno (as well as other administrators) was aware of a 1998 criminal investigation on allegations that Sandusky abused a boy in Penn State locker room showers. While the local district attorney did not prosecute, the Freeh Group condemned Paterno and the others for not setting up further precautions against Sandusky's behavior.
It concluded that Spanier, vice president Gary Schultz and athletic director Tim Curley also knew and did nothing.
   39. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:47 AM (#4180938)
Is this true? I've never heard this before.
The Freeh report only just dropped today. From a good summary by Dan Wetzel at Yahoo:
"The evidence shows that Mr. Paterno was made aware of the 1998 investigation of Sandusky, followed it closely, but failed to take any action, even though Sandusky had been a key member of his coaching staff for almost 30 years, and had an office just steps away from Mr. Paterno's," the report's conclusion reads.

"At the very least, Mr. Paterno could have alerted the entire football staff, in order to prevent Sandusky from bringing another child into the Lasch Building. Messrs. Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley also failed to alert the Board of Trustees about the 1998 investigation or take any further action against Mr. Sandusky. None of them even spoke to Sandusky about his conduct.

"In short, nothing was done and Sandusky was allowed to continue with impunity."
Further, the report finds that the Penn St administration had determined, after hearing McQueary's story about the rape he witnessed, to take the information to the police. The Freeh report believes that Paterno himself talked them out of it:
"Based on the evidence, the only known, intervening factor between the decision made on February 25, 2001 by Messrs. Spanier, Curley and Schulz to report the incident to the Department of Public Welfare, and then agreeing not to do so on February 27th, was Mr. Paterno's February 26th conversation with Mr. Curley," the report wrote.

The Freeh Group believes the interest of avoiding bad publicity allowed Sandusky to remain free, where he would go on to abuse additional boys and maintain near full access to Penn State facilities and the inner workings of the football program.

"It is more reasonable to conclude that, in order to avoid the consequences of bad publicity, the most powerful leaders at Penn State University – Messrs. Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley – repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky's child abuse from the authorities, the Board of Trustees, Penn State community, and the public at large. Although concern to treat the child abuser humanely was expressly stated, no such sentiments were ever expressed by them for Sandusky's victims."
It's beyond damning.
   40. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4180941)
I can't believe Joe Posnanski said nothing while Joe Paterno molested all those kids under his watch.

Remember, Pos didn't "say nothing". He actively defended Paterno and PSU. If Posnanski had written something to the effect of, "Obviously, this story has an enormous effect on me personally and professionally. If true, it's horrifying. Like everyone else, I want to know the truth." and then ended discussion, he wouldn't be lampooned like this.

The problem with Posnanski's book is that, even if he handles the revelations gracefully, it will almost become a book about Posnanski rather than a book about Paterno - because clearly Posnanski was charmed and fooled too and the book will have to be about how Paterno created and maintained this illusion for all these years.
   41. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4180942)
People jumped down Poz's throat for basically saying, "let's wait until the facts are in". Is that worthy of tarring-and-feathering?


He was live-tweeted as telling a Perv State University class the following after the scandal first broke:

“I think [Paterno] is a scapegoat. I definitely think that…I think he tried to do the right thing, and the right thing didn’t happen.”

“A lot of people came here to bury Joe. As a writer, I’m mad with that, as someone who’s come to know the Paternos, I’m heartbroken”


Just out of curiosity, which of those statements do you read as "basically saying, 'let's wait until the facts are in'"?

Sounds more like he was saying "I drank Joe Paterno's Kool-Aid (probably made using the senile old goat's bathwater), & let me tell you, it tasated goooooooooood."
   42. Bob Tufts Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4180946)
"Won't somebody please think of the children!"
   43. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4180947)
I think Poz was wrong, but I don't think refusing to believe at first blush the most terrible things you've ever heard about a person is exactly an unforgivable offense, even with those tweets.
   44. nick swisher hygiene Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4180948)
If you're the president of Penn St (if you're the new president after the dust begins to settle)--assuming the version of events posted here is basically true, doesn't football just have to go away?

Chronicle of Higher Ed cites report as indicting a "culture of reverence for the football program that is ingrained at all levels of the campus community". At this point, who could disagree?

Doesn't Penn State football have to go the #### away for a generation?

Can't the NCAA just shut the program down for a decade?

   45. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 12, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4180951)
I think Poz was wrong, but I don't think refusing to believe at first blush the most terrible things you've ever heard about a person is exactly an unforgivable offense, even with those tweets.
The important issue is whether the book gets it right or wrong, to what degree and in what ways. Since it all comes down to the book, I don't see a lot of value in hashing out exactly how wrong Poz was to defend Paterno as he did in that class. There's no question he was wrong, but the interesting question is whether he can get it right now, and he's got as good an opportunity as anyone will get.

EDITed to make clear I was responding to Lassus and gef. To nick, I mean, I think the evidence is pretty clear that big time college football is profoundly destructive of whatever service goals a university might have. I'll be very impressed if a university puts its service mission before the money the football program brings in, but I'm not expecting it even if this extreme situation.
   46. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4180953)
I can't believe Joe Posnanski said nothing while Joe Paterno molested all those kids under his watch.

Remember, Pos didn't "say nothing". He actively defended Paterno and PSU. If Posnanski had written something to the effect of, "Obviously, this story has an enormous effect on me personally and professionally. If true, it's horrifying. Like everyone else, I want to know the truth." and then ended discussion, he wouldn't be lampooned like this.


I know, I was just kidding. I don't know how this scandal is about JoPo. He's like a wart on the rear end of this elephant. I can forgive him for being a bit star-struck, so long as he has some sort of mea culpa about it now or writes the book we all hope he will write, and not a glossed over hagiography.

Black Shoe Diaries is beyond sickening right now.
   47. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4180958)
Football didn't cause children to get molested so I'm don't see why football has to go away. Does organized religion have to go away for a generation or so?
   48. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4180962)
Unless there are any NCAA infractions (I haven't heard of any, although I haven't been following that closely), I don't see why the NCAA should get involved.
   49. Nasty Nate Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4180963)
Does organized religion have to go away for a generation or so?


Well, the Catholic churches, schools, and seminaries here in Boston have been closing and/or emptying over the past decade. So....maybe.
   50. Eddo Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4180968)
The argument for the NCAA intervening would be "lack of institutional control". Not agreeing or disagreeing, just saying.
   51. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:17 PM (#4180969)
Football didn't cause children to get molested so I'm don't see why football has to go away.


The problem wasn't that children got molested - that is a matter for the criminal justice sytem, which has worked - Sandusky is in jail for the rest of his life. The problem from this perspective is that children got molested and good people in authority did nothing about it. That was quite clearly because of football.
   52. nick swisher hygiene Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4180970)
47--the attentive reader, taking my post as a whole, will gather that PENN ST FOOTBALL is what I'm discussing....
   53. Eddo Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:18 PM (#4180971)
Football didn't cause children to get molested so I'm don't see why football has to go away. Does organized religion have to go away for a generation or so?

On one hand, it certainly is unfair to punish the current players and staff for the trangressions of people ten years ago.

On the other, retribution is certainly a valid response. Clearly, the culture and power of Penn State football enabled a man who sexually abused children to continue to do so, so it would make sense to come down on the program.
   54. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4180974)
Unless there are any NCAA infractions (I haven't heard of any, although I haven't been following that closely), I don't see why the NCAA should get involved.


The NCAA sanctioned Ohio State coach Jim Tressel for "unethical conduct" for failing to report his players selling memorabilia for tattoos, even though (AFAIK) that's not a specific NCAA infraction. I would guess they will try to go after the PSU actors for "unethical conduct", but I don't know if that can be applied to an institution. My guess is Eddo's argument will be what they use, "lack of institutional control."

What did Baylor basketball get hit for? Was it the murder cover-up or was it only the NCAA infractions they committed?
   55. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4180975)
Does organized religion have to go away for a generation or so?


Sounds like a really good start, though the vast herds of people who wouldn't be able to function without someone telling them what to think & do would probably prove to be disruptive.
   56. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4180976)
47--the attentive reader, taking my post as a whole, will gather that PENN ST FOOTBALL is what I'm discussing...

No shvt.


On the other, retribution is certainly a valid response

Retribution to whom? Paterno is dead, Sandusky is in jail, and others are headed to trial. A football program is not a human being. Are we to head back to the medieval ages and hold trials for pigs and cows because the farmer was killed when the animal kicked him? You punish the people responsible for it not inanimate objects.
   57. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4180978)
The problem from this perspective is that children got molested and good people in authority did nothing about it. That was quite clearly because of football.

No, that was quite clearly because people are people. People cover up unpleasant things all the time because they believe it is in their own self interest to do so.
   58. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4180980)
Retribution to whom? Paterno is dead, Sandusky is in jail, and others are headed to trial. A football program is not a human being.

Entire programs are punished all the time despite not being human beings. Why can't they be this time? As far as the NCAA's call for doing so, well, Penn State is in the NCAA, and the NCAA might be worried about how Penn State is representing them.


No, that was quite clearly because people are people. People cover up unpleasant things all the time because they believe it is in their own self interest to do so.

Saying that they believed it was in the best (self-)interest of their football program - $$$$$$$ - cannot be that much of a leap for you.
   59. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:29 PM (#4180982)
The NCAA sanctioned Ohio State coach Jim Tressel for "unethical conduct" for failing to report his players selling memorabilia for tattoos, even though (AFAIK) that's not a specific NCAA infraction. I would guess they will try to go after the PSU actors for "unethical conduct", but I don't know if that can be applied to an institution. My guess is Eddo's argument will be what they use, "lack of institutional control."

I believe it was an infraction. Players aren't allowed to sell memorabilia when students because otherwise it would make an easy circumvention of rules regarding player compensation.

EDIT: A. J. Green got into trouble for selling his jersey a couple of years ago.
   60. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4180983)
Entire programs are punished all the time despite not being human beings

Which is stupid. Does the NCAA have the power to fire people at colleges? I know they can suspend coaches for games but can they just say "you're done"? It seems to me the NCAA punishes programs because they don't have direct authority over the employees of colleges.
   61. Eddo Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4180985)
No, that was quite clearly because people are people. People cover up unpleasant things all the time because they believe it is in their own self interest to do so.

Yes, but the fact that Penn State football had gotten so powerful and out-of-control enabled those people to act at their worst.

If my buddy rapes a kid, and I help him cover it up, we'll both get caught. If we had a powerful organization to hide behind, our chances of getting caught drops. A perfectly valid response is to punish the organization for enabling the cover up.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Do you believe that organizations should never be punished for actions of their members, especially their powerful members?
   62. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:32 PM (#4180986)
Saying that they believed it was in the best (self-)interest of their football program - $$$$$$$ - cannot be that much of a leap for you.

So what? You're going to blame football because people acted selfishly? The root cause wasn't football it was people being people.
   63. Eddo Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4180988)
Which is stupid. Does the NCAA have the power to fire people at colleges? I know they can suspend coaches for games but can they just say "you're done"? It seems to me the NCAA punishes programs because they don't have direct authority over the employees of colleges.

The logic is:

1. A member of an organization does something that goes against the rules of a higher governing organization.

2. The governing organization punishes the smaller organization, which they have control over.

3. The smaller organization can often lessen the punishment my dealing with the individuals who committed the acts in the first place.

It's akin to the SEC levying fines against businesses.
   64. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4180989)
If we had a powerful organization to hide behind, our chances of getting caught drops.

Organizations are made up of human beings that make decisions. You wouldn't be hiding behind a rock or something you'd be hiding behind a large group of human beings that are making a decision to help you get away with it just you made the decision to help your buddy cover up the rape. Are you an organization?
   65. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:35 PM (#4180990)
The logic is:

1. A member of an organization does something that goes against the rules of a higher governing organization.

2. The governing organization punishes the smaller organization, which they have control over.

3. The smaller organization can often lessen the punishment my dealing with the individuals who committed the acts in the first place.

It's akin to the SEC levying fines against businesses.


Yes, and it appears that in this case the "smaller organization" has already cleaned house or is in the process of finishing that up so banning the football program at this point seems stupid.
   66. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4180992)
You're going to blame football because people acted selfishly?

Blaming Penn State's football program does not blame football, it blames Penn State's football program.

Oh, forget it.
   67. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4180995)
I hear Soriano's available.
   68. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4180996)
Oh, forget it.

Good, because when I say "football" I'm talking about the PS football program.
   69. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4181000)
Good, because when I say "football" I'm talking about the PS football program.

If you wish to beleve that the people acted the way they did independently from the cult of Penn State football, go ahead. I think that's ridiculous.
   70. Eddo Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4181001)
Organizations are made up of human beings that make decisions. You wouldn't be hiding behind a rock or something you'd be hiding behind a large group of human beings that are making a decision to help you get away with it just you made the decision to help your buddy cover up the rape. Are you an organization?

If enough people, who make terrible decisions, get together to form an organization that enables horrible behavior, then I don't see why coming down on the organization - or even forcing it to disband - is such an awful thing.
   71. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4181002)
If you wish to beleve that the people acted the way they did independently from the cult of Penn State football, go ahead. I think that's ridiculous.


This.

I think it's perfectly likely that the people involved were extremely capable of acting "the way they did independently from the cult of Penn State football," but the fact remains that that isn't what happened.
   72. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 12, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4181006)
i think one of the fallouts from the ugliness at psu will be that joe posnanski's reputation is permanently besmirched through no fault of anyone but his.

as others stated he could have remembered the sage line about keeping one's mouth shut and being thought a fool versus opening it and removing all doubt. joe had a 50/50 chance of it working out by speaking and got the wrong 50.

his book will be ridiculed because there is no going back and changing passages that now will likely read as nothing but codswollop, he will be heckled for some time either in person or electronically and any mention of him will be tied to paterno.

i am hopeful i am completely wrong since this will be a large price to pay for not wanting to believe that the guy you sat across for months was anything but honorable at the end of his life.
   73. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4181022)
If you wish to beleve that the people acted the way they did independently from the cult of Penn State football, go ahead. I think that's ridiculous.

Again, the people who created that "cult" are now gone or awaiting trial. But, hey, go ahead kick the dead horse if it makes you feel better.
   74. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4181024)
re: #72-

Posnanski's problems run deeper. From a quick skim of the report, it looks like a heckofalot of folks in State College knew "something" was up re: Sandusky, dating back years. One of the key focuses of the report is the lack of compliance at PSU, which allowed so many people to "know" without there being institutional knowledge. Posnanski, who freakin' moved to State College, never heard a whit of this? Some journalist.
   75. McCoy Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4181030)
Because people who are actively trying to cover it up are going to gossip to a journalist?
   76. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4181032)
Because people who are actively trying to cover it up are going to gossip to a journalist?


The lower level people, who are not reporting or following-up because of fear of institutional backlash? You betcha. How do you think reporters get leaks re: scandals?
   77. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:12 PM (#4181035)
Again, the people who created that "cult" are now gone or awaiting trial. But, hey, go ahead kick the dead horse if it makes you feel better.


I'm pretty sure that "cult" goes back decades, & it didn't & doesn't consist only of Paterno or any of those who have been dismissed.
   78. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4181039)
Posnanski, who freakin' moved to State College, never heard a whit of this? Some journalist.


Can Posnanski really be called a journalist? I haven't followed his career, but my impression is that he's never been much for, say, writing actual news or conducting investigations or whatever, as opposed to penning paeans to people he thinks are the bestest folks evar.
   79. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4181040)
The NCAA sanctioned Ohio State coach Jim Tressel for "unethical conduct" for failing to report his players selling memorabilia for tattoos, even though (AFAIK) that's not a specific NCAA infraction. I would guess they will try to go after the PSU actors for "unethical conduct", but I don't know if that can be applied to an institution. My guess is Eddo's argument will be what they use, "lack of institutional control."

I believe it was an infraction. Players aren't allowed to sell memorabilia when students because otherwise it would make an easy circumvention of rules regarding player compensation.


I'm not talking about the player infractions, I'm talking about the sanctions against Jim Tressel. AFAIK (and I could be wrong), there was nothing in the bylaws about not turning that in, but it falls under the NCAA's "unethical conduct."
   80. rr Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4181045)
As suggested above, Posnanski has never been, or to my knowledge, tried to be, an inquisitive, investigative, journalist. From what I have seen/read, he is an everyman/human interest story kind of guy. He also tends to look for the good in his subjects. One of his stated reasons for writing about the 1975 Reds was to try to show this generation some positive aspects of Pete Rose's personality and life.

So, Posnanski is IMO in many respects EXACTLY the wrong guy to be in this situation he was in at Penn State, and, predictably (and unfortunately), he blew it.
   81. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4181047)

So what? You're going to blame football because people acted selfishly? The root cause wasn't football it was people being people.


If people were acting selfishly, they would have covered their ass and turned Sandusky in. But they didn't because they either wanted to protect their program or if they did act selfishly it was to protect their career by protecting the program. I can't see how anyone could see that this wasn't about football.
   82. Lassus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4181060)
Again, the people who created that "cult" are now gone or awaiting trial.

I may not be Harveys, but I have enough farmers in my family to know that some diseases require the herd be slaughtered.
   83. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4181062)
I'm not talking about the player infractions, I'm talking about the sanctions against Jim Tressel. AFAIK (and I could be wrong), there was nothing in the bylaws about not turning that in, but it falls under the NCAA's "unethical conduct."

The NCAA requires coaches to file affidavits stating they have no knowledge of NCAA infractions - which Tressel did. I am quite certain that there is an NCAA rule which requires them to be truthful or why bother?
   84. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4181069)
lassus

this is true. more for sheep than most others. hogs have really good immune systems interestingly enough. similar to humans

ok, now you have me going on a tangent about animal physiology and immunology so i better stop........
   85. DA Baracus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4181073)
Posnanski is a writer, not a journalist. The two are similar but not identical.

Again, the people who created that "cult" are now gone or awaiting trial.


How do you prevent a cover up like this from happening again? Can it even be prevented?
   86. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4181081)
Posnanski is a writer, not a journalist.

So, he's like what, Rick Reilly without the alcohol problem? IIRC, his background is as a journalist.
   87. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4181091)
IIRC, his background is as a journalist.


So's mine. Doesn't mean I'm one now. (In fact, I'm not. Neither, apparently, is Posnanski. Judging from the bio on his blog, he was a columnist -- not a reporter -- for most of his newspaper career.)
   88. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4181098)
(Nothing wrong with being a columnist -- apparently, it's a lot more remunerative a gig than being a reporter or for that matter an editor -- but those guys are no more more journalists per se than a second baseman is a pitcher.)
   89. Dan Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4181103)
I'm glad that all of the people involved in the cult of Paterno have been cleared out of PSU. Otherwise things like this might happen. Not that it's a huge deal, but it's pretty stupid anyway.
   90. DA Baracus Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4181108)
So, he's like what, Rick Reilly without the alcohol problem? IIRC, his background is as a journalist.


Or the rehashing of stories outdated by 18 years. Joe's been a columnist for decades. He's a reporter as much as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is a tank driver.

I agree that if he heard whispers about Sandusky he should have done some snooping around, which apparently he did not, but I'm not going to hold him accountable for not breaking this story.
   91. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4181118)
I'm not talking about the player infractions, I'm talking about the sanctions against Jim Tressel. AFAIK (and I could be wrong), there was nothing in the bylaws about not turning that in, but it falls under the NCAA's "unethical conduct."


Tressel was informed about the players selling their jerseys to a tattoo shop and failed to report it to the NCAA, although he did let his QB's mentor know that people were on to the players. He then lied to OSU when the university asked him about the deal, saying he had no knowledge of anything. (OSU had been informed of the players actions bu the justice department that was investigating the tattoo shop for different illegal activities). Tressel also had a history of covering up player misdeeds while the AD at Youngstown State. This was a case of the university getting it right and firing a popular, winning coach for not playing by the rules.
   92. Jim Furtado Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4181134)
I understand the feeling the Sandusky actions generate. With some of the recent stuff that's in the news, I will cut some slack to the posters about turning the current thread into another Joe Paterno/Sandusky rehash. In the future, though, if people continue to turn every Posnanski thread into a Paterno/Sandusky thread, the offenders will have their accounts suspened.

Again, I understand the feelings. I too am sickened by all the pro-Paterno rationalizations. In the future, if you want to talk about the Paterno/Sandusky matter please submit a post of an article marked as OT-Football: <Article title> and you can discuss the topic there.

Jim
   93. Nasty Nate Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4181137)
While acknowledging that Posnanski is a columnist and not an investigative journalist, wasn't he at PSU doing research rather than just penning columns for SI on how green the practice fields' grass was?
   94. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4181140)
All indications, AFAIK, are that he was at PSU doing research on how wonderful Joe Paterno was. As in most instances, I suspect he found exactly what he expected & wanted to find.
   95. TDF, situational idiot Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4181146)
hogs have really good immune systems interestingly enough. similar to humans
I read an article that said avian flu wasn't a danger until it showed up in pigs, because humans can't catch flu from birds but they can from pigs.

I know they can suspend coaches for games but can they just say "you're done"?
In essence, this is what they've done with Jim Tressel and his "show cause" penalty. Any NCAA member who hires him has to prove to the NCAA they shouldn't be put on probation for doing so.

My guess is Eddo's argument will be what they use, "lack of institutional control."
Exactly right, given that evidently the head football coach, athletic director, and president of the university all were alerted to what happened and all chose to do nothing.

***
Ya know, much like Poz, I also always admired Paterno. He seemed to be the exact opposite of the SEC/Big 12 coaches who seemed to think football was the reason the university existed, as opposed to the other way around. His players graduated in droves; you never heard a peep about rules or recruiting violations. When all of this surfaced, I found it unimaginable that Paterno could have known and not done a thing.

Unfortunately, much like I was when the first stories about Jim Tressel came out of Ohio State, I couldn't be more wrong.

I think Poz can redeem himself, if he (1) rewrites the book, with what we know now as the backdrop or (2) squashes the book altogether, with a very public article about everything that happened. We tend to forgive people who own up to their mistakes.
   96.     Hey Gurl Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4181151)
I see we don't even need gaelan to make good on his threats to ruin every Joe poz article. Terrific.
   97. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4181153)
Tressel was informed about the players selling their jerseys to a tattoo shop and failed to report it to the NCAA, although he did let his QB's mentor know that people were on to the players. He then lied to OSU when the university asked him about the deal, saying he had no knowledge of anything. (OSU had been informed of the players actions bu the justice department that was investigating the tattoo shop for different illegal activities). Tressel also had a history of covering up player misdeeds while the AD at Youngstown State. This was a case of the university getting it right and firing a popular, winning coach for not playing by the rules.


Sure, I'm not defending Tressel here. My point was that he was slapped with the "Show-cause" sanction by the NCAA for "unethical conduct", not AFAIK, for technically breaking any rules, although as Pops points out in #83, perhaps lying on an affidavit to the NCAA would violate one of their sanctions. That same "unethical conduct" umbrella might be used by the NCAA against Penn State officials, although probably not the entire institution.
   98. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4181155)
It's warranted today, Shock.
   99. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4181160)
While acknowledging that Posnanski is a columnist and not an investigative journalist, wasn't he at PSU doing research rather than just penning columns for SI on how green the practice fields' grass was?


And it's not even like this popped up all of a sudden once Posnanski got there.

Not saying that Poz should have changed the focus of his book plan based on early reports, but Sandusky was Paterno's trusted defensive coordinator for many years, so it might've made sense to dig at least a little bit.
   100. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: July 12, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4181176)
I feel like if you're going to write a biography, that makes you a biographer. And inherent to the role of biographer is doing real research about the life of your subject.
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