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Wednesday, August 15, 2012

Posnanski book preview - Joe Paterno’s Last Season

Scott Paterno was the first in the family to understand that the Pennsylvania grand jury presentment that indicted Jerry Sandusky could end his father’s career. This wasn’t surprising; Scott tended to be the most realistic—or cynical, depending on who you asked—in the family. He had run for Congress and lost and along the way tasted the allure and nastiness of public life. He had worked as a lawyer and as a lobbyist. He would sometimes tell people, “Hey, don’t kid yourself, I’m the ####### of the family.” When Scott read the presentment, he called his father and said, “Dad, you have to face the possibility that you will never coach another game.”

Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 15, 2012 at 11:48 AM | 525 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: history, off-topic, ped, posnanski

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   1. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 15, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4208764)
"My name," he told Jay, "I have spent my whole life trying to make that name mean something. And now it's gone."

Gone would be an upgrade. Generations of your family will wish it were gone. Instead it will be decades and decades of shame.
   2. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4208770)
I think the important question is left out; what was Bobby Valentine's involvement?
   3. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4208775)
I was wondering why there were other "ped"-tagged articles, but I figured it out.
   4. rr Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4208779)
A guy named Greg Bucceroni has come forward, claiming that he was abused by a PA Democratic political power broker named Ed Savitz in the late 70s and also suggesting that Sandusky/Second Mile was part of a wide-ranging pedophile "network" with political and Mafia ties. Savitz died of AIDS in 1993. Some websites are claiming that Ed Rendell knew about Savitz.

I also looked at framingpaterno.com for about 10 minutes. One of their claims is that the "coach" in the 1998 emails is not Paterno at all, but Sandusky.
   5. Repoz Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4208782)
You really want to cry (and vomit) continually... This Guy Says He was Offered $200 to Have Sex With Jerry Sandusky in 1979 and 1980 as Part of a Child Sex Ring (not safe for anyplace)

Jerry Sandusky! "Uncle Eddie" Savitz! Ed Rendell! Richard "The Iceman" Kuklinski! Jerry "The Geator With the Heater" Blavat!

This reads like a Pynchon novel from hell.

If true...
   6. UCCF Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4208783)
I suspect this will be a completely calm and level-headed discussion.
   7. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4208786)
I suspect this will be a completely calm and level-headed discussion.

So far, so good! No one blow it!
   8. rr Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:21 PM (#4208789)
I do believe that Repoz owes me a Coke.
   9. Repoz Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4208794)
A Paterno-calorie is on its way.
   10. rr Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4208797)
Yeah. I had a hard time processing it when I read it.
   11. Fanshawe Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4208799)
The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that many many people outside of Penn State but within the College Football world knew about the abuse. Sandusky retired as an extremely well regarded DC of a very successful program that was renowned for its defense. But he never got any mentions for any head coaching gigs, and, unless my memory is failing me, he wasn't even rumored to be up for any of these jobs. To me, there is simply no credible explanation for that besides other ADs, coaches, and other football people knowing, or having very strong suspicions about what what was going on. I don't think that relieves Paterno or Penn State of any blame, but it does make me very sad. Hope I'm wrong.
   12. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4208801)
Well, I don't hate anything I read in the excerpt, so that's good.
   13. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4208803)
11: That's not really the case. As for who knew what, I have no idea.
   14. Repoz Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4208805)
BTW, Although the Porn Ring article doesn't mention him by name...Richard "The Iceman" Kuklinski was one of the "owners" of the Gambino-backed Brighton Enterprises video porn biz.
   15. The George Sherrill Selection Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4208806)
#5... does it include Ray Gricar, the missing DA from the county where all of this took place?
   16. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4208810)
I didn't realize Poz' book was being released so soon. It will be interesting, thats fer sure.
   17. ColonelTom Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4208811)
More on Sandusky's offers from other schools.

Essentially he withdrew from the UVa search when they started scrutinizing and questioning his "close ties" with Second Mile. We don't know why they started questioning him about that - maybe it was just dumb luck, or maybe someone tipped them off. Either way, Sandusky didn't want them investigating further and removed himself from consideration.
   18. Repoz Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4208816)
Don't think they went into the Gricar situation...but aren't Stu Bykofsky, The Guardian Angels, and Rick & the Masters mentions enough?!
   19. Fanshawe Posted: August 15, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4208819)
11, 17:

Thanks, that actually makes me feel better. I remembered he was mentioned as a candidate for UVa job, but I didn't remember him getting as close as he did. Maybe the second mile questions scared him off from future applications.
   20. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4208824)
The article & interview Repoz linked to was 1.) outrageous and almost impossibly farfetched, yet 2.) appallingly plausible in its tiny details. The verisimilitude of Bucceroni's account is chilling. Either he's telling the truth or he's a sociopathically gifted liar. I suppose either is possible, but given events? I know which way I'm leaning.
   21. rr Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4208829)
I checked out the Black Shoe Diaries thread on the excerpt. They have focused their ire on the Penn State BOT. There is one guy who says he knows the Paternos and says that the family is taking the "legal" approach to "make this right."

Many of them are very eager for Posnanski's book to come out.
   22. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:18 PM (#4208833)
"My name," he told Jay, "I have spent my whole life trying to make that name mean something. And now it's gone."


Maybe that's the problem; that Paterno was so obsessed with making his name mean something that he failed at the most human basic level.

   23. McCoy Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4208835)
Well, the link doesn't say UVa was looking into Second Mile. I believe it states that they questioned his commitment to coaching in VA while still having close ties to Second Mile. One could read it as UVa believing that Sandusky would not have enough time to actively participate in Second Mile functions and daily running and Sandusky not wanting to give up his sex buffet so he turned the job down.
   24. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4208840)
Many of them are very eager for Posnanski's book to come out.


So what are people expecting, here, as a best guess? Will the book be an apology for Paterno, or will Posnanski offer an objective and rightfully harsh critique of Paterno? Something in between?

I don't know what to expect. I lean towards basically an apology for Paterno, with some lip service paid to "Oh, Joe made mistakes," but without said lip service really doing much to change the fact that the overall tone of the book is an apology for Posnanski's Flawed Hero. But who knows.

I don't really expect a harsh, excoriating critique of Paterno - which is what is in order here - to be coming our way.
   25. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4208845)
Will the book be an apology for Paterno, or will Posnanski offer an objective and rightfully harsh critique of Paterno? Something in between?


Somewhere in between. I'm guessing the book will "humanize" him.
   26. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4208846)
So what are people expecting, here, as a best guess? Will the book be an apology for Paterno, or will Posnanski offer an objective and rightfully harsh critique of Paterno? Something in between?

I don't know what to expect. I lean towards basically an apology for Paterno, with some lip service paid to "Oh, Joe made mistakes," but without said lip service really doing much to change the fact that the overall tone of the book is an apology for Posnanski's Flawed Hero. But who knows.

I don't really expect a harsh, excoriating critique of Paterno - which is what is in order here - to be coming our way.


I don't think it'll be an apology for Paterno, but I think it'll probably go easier on him than he deserves.
   27. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4208850)
I don't really expect a harsh, excoriating critique of Paterno - which is what is in order here - to be coming our way.

No, me neither. But that's not really Joe P's style anyway, somebody will do a better job of that than Joe could have. The book started out as a love letter to Paterno but obviously had to get some extensive rewrites as the news broke. I expect it to be a book where you can pretty much see the cut and paste marks and guess when each section or chapter was written.
   28. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4208851)
That shock jock came up with the child porn ring hypothesis at the time the news broke. There's still a lot of weirdness to this story. Has anyone investigated what might have been on that DA's hard drive that disappeared. That #### is right out of a bad Grisham novel (though I guess I'm being redundant there...) The one thing that worries me about the Freeh report and Penn State's quick acquiescence to its contents and the NCAA's punishment is that it creates the impression that that investigation is the final word. #### that. I want to see every rock over turned. Every single goddammed one.
   29. zonk Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4208854)
11, 17:

Thanks, that actually makes me feel better. I remembered he was mentioned as a candidate for UVa job, but I didn't remember him getting as close as he did. Maybe the second mile questions scared him off from future applications.


Actually, I would have the opposite reaction... all it really does is widen the circle of people who might have at least smelled smoke, but took no actions to see if there was fire*.

*I recognize how dangerous this line of thought is - making everyone in a vigilante, following every suspicious thread, etc... I'm not saying there's an easy answer here, but at the same time - I find it awful hard to believe that those who 'looked the other way' were solely confined to the PSU administration and coaching staff. I'm in no way absolving them by adding more possibly guilty parties to the mix and again, I'm not calling for a witchhunt... But Sandusky WAS a well-known DC, at a big-time program -- and there are only so many big time programs. I doubt anyone would admit it now, but I find it hard to believe that there weren't at least rumors floating around the NCAA CFB world.
   30. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4208868)
Maybe that's the problem; that Paterno was so obsessed with making his name mean something that he failed at the most human basic level.

"I work my whole life--I don't apologize--to take care of my family, and I refused to be a fool, dancing on the string held by all those bigshots. I don't apologize--that's my life--but I thought that, that when it was your time, that you would be the one to hold the string. Senator Corleone; Governor Corleone ..."
   31. rr Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4208869)
I want to see every rock over turned. Every single goddammed one.



I don't mean this as a dig at you, but the BSD crowd is saying the same thing--they seem to think that huge somemembersofBOT/Mafia/Pols/Freeh/sickos multiple conspiracies will exonerate Paterno. I think one basic problem the BSD crew has is that they don't seem to get that Paterno has not been accused of a crime. They (and his family) seem to see him as being falsely imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit. That isn't what happened.

In Repoz's link, Buccerino says that everybody was on their best behavior whenever Paterno showed up at Second Mile functions, even though according to Buccerino, some of these guys were there looking to find kids to abuse, meet, trade, etc.

Buccerino comes off as an unstable individual, and as the article points out, he jumps from factual claim to theory a lot. But the story has a lot of detail and rings very true and his profile as an adult fits with the claims. It is tough to read for that reason and others.
   32. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4208870)
the book will report what happened from the paterno perspective which will be an elderly man being overwhelmed by events

note the reference of not having any supporters on the board of trustess. that is because paterno bullied the board of trustess into keeping his job. this latter point will be ignored. just that paterno was 'isolated' and 'alone'

i have seen these whitewash jobs under the guise of reporting the facts for decades now and it never fails to grab an audience

paterno will be portrayed as alone, frail and confused. which will be true. but that is because he had his power stripped away and without it he had nowhere to turn and his mind and then his body failed him. it was the power that sustained him
   33. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4208871)
The book started out as a love letter to Paterno but obviously had to get some extensive rewrites as the news broke. I expect it to be a book where you can pretty much see the cut and paste marks and guess when each section or chapter was written.


Yes, I wonder how to pull this off. There will be hundreds of pages about the great things that Paterno did - do you just throw in a sentence every once in a while to dampen things? "Little did they know that, a few short years hence, everything would come crashing down."

I believe that Poz will do very little moralizing about the issue. He will admit that Paterno's actions were beastly, and then move on. Most of the stuff about the scandal will be (and probably should be) focused on the inside view that Poz had of effect of the fallout on the family.

Also, what Harveys said.
   34. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4208872)
I don't really expect a harsh, excoriating critique of Paterno - which is what is in order here - to be coming our way.

SSS and all, but yeah, so far it looks like it's going to linger over the impact of the scandal on Paterno and his family. If it doesn't discuss at length how the family internalized Joe's distended power as their own -- just look at their complaints that they weren't "consulted" by the NCAA in re the penalty, an utterly ludicrous expectation -- then the book will miss the point.
   35. rr Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4208876)
I doubt anyone would admit it now, but I find it hard to believe that there weren't at least rumors floating around the NCAA CFB world.


You may be right, but I would also suggest that we know less about the people we work with/deal with professionally in our fields than we might think we do. I don't think this applies to Paterno in this case, but to people around CFB, it might.
   36. Jim Wisinski Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4208877)
I think the book is going to take the "great man in all other aspects who made a mistake towards the end of his career" tack. I wouldn't call that an apology for Paterno, more like an attempt to put the Sandusky scandal to the side and keep it from overshadowing the rest of Paterno's life. I'll be very (but happily) surprised if Posnanski actually acknowledges that Paterno was willing to let child molestation continue to occur so that it wouldn't tarnish the reputation of him and his program. It probably also won't do anything to suggest that the Sandusky situation should make us re-evaluate Paterno's reputation as an upstanding coach who always ran a clean program
   37. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4208880)

SSS and all, but yeah, so far it looks like it's going to linger over the impact of the scandal on Paterno and his family. If it doesn't discuss at length how the family internalized Joe's distended power as their own -- just look at their complaints that they weren't "consulted" by the NCAA in re the penalty, an utterly ludicrous expectation -- then the book will miss the point.


To be honest, such a book would be interesting. Even if he tries to portray the family as being unfairly wronged(and I doubt he will) anyone who knows anything about this will be able to put things in a proper context.

And if it's just an attack on Paterno et al. I don't think it'll be interesting enough for me to want to read. I can see him condemned on the internet for free.
   38. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4208884)
As for the "Paterno not having any supporters on the BoT" thing, this would seem to confirm that Bill James has been working off of Poz's material.
   39. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4208886)
I don't mean this as a dig at you, but the BSD crowd is saying the same thing--they seem to think that huge somemembersofBOT/Mafia/Pols/Freeh/sickos multiple conspiracies will exonerate Paterno.

It's interesting that I think the exact opposite. Paterno could become a smaller piece in a bigger puzzle, though, if that makes the BSD crowd feel better.
   40. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 15, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4208887)
Sandusky knew he had a safe haven at Penn State and didn't want others looking into what he knew Penn State people knew. That's why he dropped out at UVa and that's why his coaching career ended. Hell, it's not inconceivable that he and some combination of Paterno/Spanier had a discussion along the lines of, "You're okay here Jerry, but don't make us have to discuss you with people at other schools."
   41. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4208905)
Will the book be an apology for Paterno, or will Posnanski offer an objective and rightfully harsh critique of Paterno? Something in between?


You could probably write a pretty good book or movie on Posnanski's process of writing this book about Paterno. Maybe even more interesting than Joe's book itself.
   42. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4208912)
And playing the part of Joe Posnanski ... Ewan McGregor.
   43. bfan Posted: August 15, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4208923)

You could probably write a pretty good book or movie on Posnanski's process of writing this book about Paterno.


You could write a good book on people's comments about Posnanski writing a book about Paterno, making that a derivative book of the 2nd order.
   44. TomH Posted: August 15, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4208947)
you could write that book.
but it wouldn't be very good......
   45. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4208956)
The bizarre part is that Posnanski found himself tortured writing about Paterno's enabling of a child sex predator.

It shouldn't have been that hard.
   46. PreservedFish Posted: August 15, 2012 at 03:44 PM (#4208974)
Ray, you're not thinking about his real job. He got paid a huge advance to write a Father's Day friendly Paterno hagiography. He can't just deliver a short screed on Paterno's sins. Somehow he has to weave those two things together, which is not an easy task.
   47. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4208979)


You could write a good book on people's comments about Posnanski writing a book about Paterno, making that a derivative book of the 2nd order.


Billy Beane never should have written that book.
   48. Zach Posted: August 15, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4209008)
The story in #5 seems incredibly unlikely. But it's full of specific, checkable details and named people, so you'd think he would get caught if he were lying outright.

One possibility that occurred to me is that the guy might be grafting the Sandusky situation onto a preexisting story of child abuse. If you'll notice, he doesn't have much contact or very many interactions with Sandusky himself. Certainly nothing like the level of specificity in the rest of his story. If he's a bit of a storyteller to start with, I could see how a huge national news story that's *almost* like what happened to him could get joined with his own story.
   49. ColonelTom Posted: August 15, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4209026)
Sandusky knew he had a safe haven at Penn State and didn't want others looking into what he knew Penn State people knew. That's why he dropped out at UVa and that's why his coaching career ended. Hell, it's not inconceivable that he and some combination of Paterno/Spanier had a discussion along the lines of, "You're okay here Jerry, but don't make us have to discuss you with people at other schools."


I thought that at first, but the problem with that storyline is that they'd likely have intervened much earlier in the negotiation process. According to the article above, Sandusky already had members of his coaching staff lined up to join him at UVa when he abruptly took himself out of the running.
   50. Repoz Posted: August 15, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4209046)
Another WNY connection that has nothing to do with nuttin'...but my neighbor, Richard "The Iceman" Kuklinski lived only a few blocks away from Saint Joseph of the Palisades High School...while noted FBI'er Louis Freeh was a student there in the mid-60's. (great investigative talent at such a young age!)

~eerie~ (random pentaquirks explode) ~eerie~



   51. ColonelTom Posted: August 15, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4209052)
One bizarre point from the article I posted earlier - Sandusky's explanation for withdrawing from the search was, as the article says, "creepy and tragic" in retrospect (emphasis added by me):

“I'm a very complex person,” he told White. “I couldn't deny the importance of Second Mile in my life. I could have played a game and said I was something different than I am, but that's not me.

Sandusky said coaching the Cavaliers “would have been neat in a lot of ways, but I've got a lot going on here, and I'll be OK.”


It's like he felt compelled to be truthful in his explanation, as in certain moments of his bizarre, self-incriminating interview with Bob Costas after the story broke last fall.
   52. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 15, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4209125)
Am I sexually attracted to underage boys? I'm a very complex person. I could have played a game and said I was something different than I am, but that's not me.
   53. Tripon Posted: August 15, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4209131)
I read Barry's comments first before the quote above his pots and did a double take.
   54. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 15, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4209140)
I read Barry's comments first before the quote above his pots and did a double take.


Yup, me too.
   55. Colin Posted: August 15, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4209147)
Posnanski briefly addressed writing the book in light of the scandal last year:

http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2011/11/curiously-short-posts.html

"I know there are people who believe that I have a responsibility to write more, to have an opinion, to come out strong, I know this because many, many people have written to tell me that in no uncertain terms.

I respect their opinion. But I disagree with it. The way I see it: I have a responsibility to write the best, most insightful and most honest book I can possibly write about Joe Paterno. That's what I signed up for. I'm not backing down from that because of this awful, evil situation. I'm also not walking away from a life and a man. "
----------

I am as curious as anyone to see how Joe approaches this. I've respected him as a writer for years, and the challenge he faces with this story seems almost insurmountable.
   56. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 15, 2012 at 08:25 PM (#4209243)
seems pretty clear that joe has taken the path of what he believes weighing a lifetime's work against what he seems to regard as one bad decision and going to ride that car right into the ditch.

again, seen this play before and it won't end well. joe has likely convinced himself that he is being fair or some other bs and everyone else is vindictive and lacking perspective. and likely got this notion reinforced by loony bill and his sidekick enabler rob when he sought others for advice. hoo baby

it's too bad. because he is going to see his credibility be crushed in the public forum
   57. Loren F. Posted: August 15, 2012 at 09:36 PM (#4209326)
Rationalization is a powerful force, up there with gravity and electromagnetism.
   58. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 15, 2012 at 10:26 PM (#4209382)
Sorry about the confusion in my failed attempt at dark humor.

I'm surprised I'm saying this, but I'm looking forward to the book. I was (am?) a big Poz fan, loved his blog posts. Then he lost the SI gig, so he fell down the radar for me a little bit. Then the whole PSU thing and the Primer backlash soured me on everything Poz-related. Without really thinking about it, I found I didn't read his stuff.

I think it will be a good book that portrays the good and the bad about Paterno. I'll check it out at the library.

   59. toratoratora Posted: August 15, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4209399)
I date a gal who grew up right outside Happy Valley and she's been telling me for years that rumors have swirled locally around Sandusky. I don't know about the NCAA or any other programs, but there was suspicion at the local level for at least two decades.
And this is coming from a guy whose whole family pretty much went to PSU-hell, my Sister and her Husband were boosters until last year.
   60. calhounite Posted: August 15, 2012 at 11:35 PM (#4209402)
The grotesque evil of the Sandusky thing probably goes way deeper than what's been exposed so far. The Freeh report was remarkably restrained in its conclusions, and basically just laid out some quite surrealistic facts.

Sandusky was not "exonerated" in 1998. Rather a series of documented irregularities occurred in such a way to abort the investigation. At the very least, Sandusky was after 1998 a "found" pedophile, that is a person, regardless of whether the case was prosecutable or not, should have resulted in the revokation of any authorization in regard to working with children and denial of access to children in a working relationship.

Instead, get this, unusual efforts were undertaken essentially to set up Sandusky in the child raping business up to and including granting unprecedented emeritus status.

At the point Penn State community area -whatever you want to call the whole grotesque groupthink- had essentially bought it. They HAD to convey the image of a pristine, exonerated Sandusky even while they knew he was raping kids. Essentially it was known that Sandusky was at least suspected of some weirdness. His book is practically a confession.

The real name of this groupthink was Paterno. The groupthink was invested in Paterno. Paterno probably didn't even NEED to inject himself into the Sandusky coverup directly. EVERYONE knew the damage exposure would cause through Paterno to the commmunity groupthink itself.

As to the extent of this Paterno worship, well, just take a look at any Penn State site.

They really are quite mad.
   61. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 16, 2012 at 12:09 AM (#4209418)
And this is coming from a guy whose whole family pretty much went to PSU-hell


Is this was one of the satellite campuses?

   62. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:34 AM (#4209448)
joe has likely convinced himself that he is being fair or some other bs and everyone else is vindictive and lacking perspective. and likely got this notion reinforced by loony bill and his sidekick enabler rob when he sought others for advice. hoo baby


Posnanski seems like the kind of writer who would absolutely let his emotions get in the way of his objective analysis, and I think Poz, in the course of researching his book, probably came to love Paterno the way he came to love Buck O'Neil. I would imagine that the closeness to Paterno and the incredibly high regard that he had in the community influenced Posnanski to the point that he probably can't write any kind of 'objective' look at Paterno and what the scandals mean at this point. And that could be ok. There should be an interesting book in what it looks like when a man's life's work crumbles around him. Not the great book I think we all want Posnanski to write (and that I think he will at some point in his life), but the details should be interesting, at least.
   63. Voros McCracken of Pinkus Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:50 AM (#4209450)
This is only a tangentially related question, but does anyone else suppose there might be a geographical gap in terms of how different people feel about college athletics?

I think whether you think something is really wonderful about college sports might have a lot to do with where you were raised and the relationship college and high school sports had to the community you grew up. For example, where I grew up college sports were a weak runner-up to the pro scene, but then where I grew up we had two MLB teams, a famous NFL team, a famous NHL team and what was soon to be the most successful basketball team on Earth. The Blue Demons or Fighting Illini were an afterthought. As an adult I find the NCAA system to be badly exploitative and college athletics less than interesting beyond what they might mean as future pros.

If you grew up in or near a place like Lawrence, Kansas or State College, Pennsylvania, I suppose your outlook may be markedly different.
   64. Walt Davis Posted: August 16, 2012 at 02:54 AM (#4209451)
How shall I put this ...

The book Poz was writing became obsolete in a second. Given how much he seems to have already written, given he'd already collected all his information and given the deadline the publisher seems committed to (why?), I don't think it was possible for Poz to completely rewrite and produce the "right" book about Paterno in that timeframe. I don't think he'd be the author for that book anyway. So I'm not exactly clear what folks are expecting of him under these circumstances.

What he should have done was (a) bsaically shut up from day one, with a "I'm as shocked as football and Joe Paterno fans are everywhere...", followed by firm and concise condemnations of Paterno; and (b) just sucked it up and given the publisher their money back and not released a thing. But he hasn't done those things and, whatever his reasons, he's made a massive mistake here.

So HW has it right (at least in general). New intro. The first X chapters (early life, rise to glory) will be the same. The final 1-2 chapters will be very different but paint Paterno in the best light it can. Again, from the perspective of an author with a contract and a deadline and a 90% written book, I don't know it's possible for him to release anything better. But releasing that book is a disaster.

Maybe Poz will pull a rabbit out of his hat or at least have tried to write the "right" book about Paterno but, to put it in line with the intro, Poz needed Scott Paterno to call him and tell him "if you don't walk away from this project, you may never publish a book again."
   65. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: August 16, 2012 at 06:02 AM (#4209461)
does anyone else suppose there might be a geographical gap in terms of how different people feel about college athletics?

I certainly think so. I was born and raised in rural Kentucky where UK basketball was/is a religion. There are no pro sports team in the state, so college basketball was king and the passion incredible. I moved to Chicago almost 10 years ago and the focus, understandably, is pro sports. And five different "big four" teams at that, so it's less concentrated. UK basketball was much like the passion for Da Bears only all the more intense because nobody had the Cubs, Sox, Bulls, or Hawks to fall back on. That was it.

The funny part is that, in Kentucky anyway, the passion was usually strongest in the areas of the state where there are fewer college graduates. I know many diehard UK fans that either didn't go to college or went to another college and root for UK over their alma mater. They all consider this perfectly normal.
   66. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: August 16, 2012 at 06:48 AM (#4209463)
I think the important question is left out; what was Bobby Valentine's involvement?
And what of Frank Tanana? How does this affect him?
   67. WillYoung Posted: August 16, 2012 at 08:11 AM (#4209472)

paterno will be portrayed as alone, frail and confused. which will be true. but that is because he had his power stripped away and without it he had nowhere to turn and his mind and then his body failed him. it was the power that sustained him


So basically Robert Caro should have been the person to write the autobiography. It's too bad he won't have time to get to it until 2022 after he releases his final LBJ book and is approximately 91 years old.
   68. starving to death with a full STEAGLES Posted: August 16, 2012 at 08:21 AM (#4209475)
I date a gal who grew up right outside Happy Valley and she's been telling me for years that rumors have swirled locally around Sandusky. I don't know about the NCAA or any other programs, but there was suspicion at the local level for at least two decades.
Essentially it was known that Sandusky was at least suspected of some weirdness.
people thought he was gay. he was married for 30+ years, he had 5 kids, he was a well known philanthropist, and people thought that if they looked too deeply at him, they'd find out he was gay and end up outing a devoted family man.

all of those whispers that you've heard about that were swirling around him for years weren't about him being a pedophile, they were about him being a closeted homosexual.
Instead, get this, unusual efforts were undertaken essentially to set up Sandusky in the child raping business up to and including granting unprecedented emeritus status.
i think this point is actually the biggest argument against the NCAA's actions. the child raping wasn't centered around the penn state football team, it was centered around the second mile charity. and because of the external investigations being centered on the actions of joe paterno and because of the blood lust being centered on castigating joe paterno, the people who were involved in the actual child endangerment, you know, the ones who were actually in contact with the children that jerry sandusky was raping, have skated through almost entirely untouched.

if you want to put all of the conspiracy theories on the table, jerry sandusky has been the nominal head of a child pedophilia ring for 30+ years. that group (the second mile) operated in broad daylight and has connections to former governor ed rendell, current governor and former attorney general tom corbett, convicted pedophile ed savitz (who may or may not have had personal connection to the second mile charity at the time he was convicted of pedophilia in the early 1990s), and may or may not have been involved with the murder/disappearance of district attorney ray gricar.

in addition, current governor tom corbett (you know, the guy who also sits on penn state's board of directors and was a major force in focusing the freeh investigation on joe paterno and the penn state football team while completely ignoring the second mile) may have silenced a separate investigation into a separate pedophilia ring centered in the york county (PA) courthouse.


it's been 9 months since jerry sandusky was arrested, but what do we actually know about his involvement with the second mile? we know that sandusky was investigated by the police in 1998, but we don't know whether that investigation was ever broadened to include the second mile. and we're also not aware of what the second mile knew about that investigation, and we also don't know whether the charity continued to allow sandusky access to children despite being aware of the accusations against him.

and while there have been multiple reports from grown up children of second mile events being glorified pedo-parties, there really hasn't been a formal investigation into the breadth of the second mile's involvement w/r/t supplying vulnerable children to pedophiles.


so, i'm really glad for all of you people who are sated by the destruction of joe paterno, but there's a fairly reasonable possibility that this entire thing has been a distraction that was created to take attention away from the potential involvement of multiple high-ranking political figures who may have been crucial to a systematic coverup of the second mile's activities w/r/t the trafficking of children to wealthy pedophiles.


   69. Rants Mulliniks Posted: August 16, 2012 at 08:55 AM (#4209485)
There are no conspiracies, steagles, I get told that all the time. Nobody is power hungry, or has a lust for money that exceeds their respect for other human beings, and every person working in government and law enforcement has a pure heart and would never turn a blind eye to children being sexually abused, let alone participate in the activity.
   70. Howie Menckel Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:02 AM (#4209489)

Well, don't be surprised if major news organizations are investigating Second Mile. There may be gold in them thar hills...

   71. jmurph Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:04 AM (#4209492)
in addition, current governor tom corbett (you know, the guy who also sits on penn state's board of directors and was a major force in focusing the freeh investigation on joe paterno and the penn state football team while completely ignoring the second mile)


Huh? It was an investigation of Penn State initiated by Penn State about Penn State's handling of the situation. Why wouldn't they focus on Penn State?
   72. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:09 AM (#4209493)
Well, don't be surprised if major news organizations are investigating Second Mile.
In fact, you should probably be surprised if they aren't. There's not just gold in them thar hills, there's Pulitzers in them thar hills.
   73. Lassus Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:11 AM (#4209495)
Edit: Oh, forget it. I'll probably get caught, but if not, it isn't worth it anyhow.
   74. Gaylord Perry the Platypus (oi!) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:18 AM (#4209500)
Lassus, I think you need to recalibrate your sarcasm detector.
   75. zonk Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:18 AM (#4209501)
This is only a tangentially related question, but does anyone else suppose there might be a geographical gap in terms of how different people feel about college athletics?

I think whether you think something is really wonderful about college sports might have a lot to do with where you were raised and the relationship college and high school sports had to the community you grew up. For example, where I grew up college sports were a weak runner-up to the pro scene, but then where I grew up we had two MLB teams, a famous NFL team, a famous NHL team and what was soon to be the most successful basketball team on Earth. The Blue Demons or Fighting Illini were an afterthought. As an adult I find the NCAA system to be badly exploitative and college athletics less than interesting beyond what they might mean as future pros.

If you grew up in or near a place like Lawrence, Kansas or State College, Pennsylvania, I suppose your outlook may be markedly different.


Oh this is absolutely, unequivocally, 100% true...

I grew up just outside of South Bend and ND football is absolutely worshiped by most of the local populace, even though a huge chunk of them have zero connection to the university beyond geographic proximity (it is, however, one of the larger local employers). When ND has had its recent scandals and issues, there's an absolute closing of ranks. Broach the subject of an arrest of a player for X or some of the recent incidents where sexual assaults by football players were at least, let's say, handled in a less than thorough manner -- and you'll get a stream of "Oh yeah, what about [this school] or [that school]!??!" Players who don't go on to pro careers end up with rather cushy local 'ambassador' type jobs - Tony Rice, last I remember, was an "executive" at a local bank (you might recall that he was a prop 48 casualty his freshman year... I'm not saying that scoring 690 total on your SAT means you can never be a banking executive, but well...) I likewise saw more than a few incidents at South Bend watering holes that would have easily brought the police out - until participants were determined to be on the ND football team.

I went to Northwestern right around the time the program turned into a Cinderella success story and to this day, Evanston/Chicago treats the university wholly differently... The relationship between Evanston and NU is frosty, at best, openly combative might be a better description. Players get no more free passes than do any other student when it comes to causing -- or even being in the wrong place/wrong time -- disturbances, etc.

It's a night and day difference between a top flight program in a smaller town or isolated area and one near a large urban center, at least in my experience. I have an inkling that perhaps things are different in certain places - maybe UCLA? Miami? but I suspect most div 1 schools that have a modicum of success near large cities - BC, NU, etc are the same way.
   76. Lassus Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:22 AM (#4209503)
Lassus, I think you need to recalibrate your sarcasm detector

My detector's fine. It was sarcastic hyperbole to highlight what he truly believes. And I edited.
   77. TDF, situational idiot Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:29 AM (#4209510)
Before y'all buy your torches and pitchforks, maybe you need to read the book instead of guessing what it says. If the book is what Poz says it is, you all owe him a very public apology.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/story/2012-08-15/joe-posnanski-joe-paterno/57081354/1
   78. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:33 AM (#4209514)
Before y'all buy your torches and pitchforks, maybe you need to read the book instead of guessing what it says. If the book is what Poz says it is, you all owe him a very public apology.

For the record, I have yet to comment about the book. Honestly, I don't plan on even reading it as I don't think Pos has had the time to research the book that needs to be written. I'll wait for the heavier stuff that will surely emerge over the next few years.
   79. GregD Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4209516)
I certainly think so. I was born and raised in rural Kentucky where UK basketball was/is a religion. There are no pro sports team in the state, so college basketball was king and the passion incredible. I moved to Chicago almost 10 years ago and the focus, understandably, is pro sports. And five different "big four" teams at that, so it's less concentrated. UK basketball was much like the passion for Da Bears only all the more intense because nobody had the Cubs, Sox, Bulls, or Hawks to fall back on. That was it.

The funny part is that, in Kentucky anyway, the passion was usually strongest in the areas of the state where there are fewer college graduates. I know many diehard UK fans that either didn't go to college or went to another college and root for UK over their alma mater. They all consider this perfectly normal.
double mega dittos. Raised partly in E-town which was UK country and then a bit in Appalachian Hyden, which was almost literally insane. Lived in Chicago, too, where at least college is on the radar because of UI, but also in NY, where college sports could literally not be less relevant, except as a nostalgic way for people from the provinces to maintain a sense of their past loyalties without actually moving back.

Flyover country has been college sports country for a long time. Now that doesn't mean exclusively--lots of UK fans love the Reds and lots of KU fans used to follow the Royals when they were relevant, etc.--but primarily. Basketball and football college dominates.

In fact, I think the only thing I'd change about the original question is the priority. Doesn't most of the country--at least by square mileage--follow college sports more passionately than pro sports? Isn't prioritizing pro sports something you find in geographically narrow but population dense areas in the eastern and western megalopoli and in the old Rust Belt swathe where teams have been long established. Kentucky, Kansas, Indiana, and North Carolina are unusual in putting basketball over football, but I'd guess most of the country--geographically--puts college football #1 in the intensity of their affiliations. Could be wrong!
   80. zonk Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:43 AM (#4209518)
Before y'all buy your torches and pitchforks, maybe you need to read the book instead of guessing what it says. If the book is what Poz says it is, you all owe him a very public apology.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/story/2012-08-15/joe-posnanski-joe-paterno/57081354/1


Maybe.

I did read an excerpt from the period where shortly after Paterno was on the cusp of being fired and then immediately after he was fired -- it does Paterno no favors on the legacy front. It talks about him essentially crying for about 2 days straight, about him not accepting the reality (there's a passage where his son, the one who ran for Congress, is the only person who tells Joe that he needs to accept the fact that he may never coach another game). It also quotes Paterno directly talking about how his 'name' he had spent a lifetime turning into something to be proud of was being dismantled in such a short period. It, however, loudly and noticeably omits any mention of Paterno having regrets for the victims. It does not render any soul-searching moments where JoePa ponders whether he should have done this, that or the other differently.

It doesn't make Paterno sound sympathetic at all -- it makes him sound a fair bit like Orson Welles at the end of Citizen Kane, in fact.

At least based on the short excerpt, Pos may be quite honest and even a bit correct when he writes:

No, I don't feel about Joe Paterno the same way I did when I started writing the book. But I don't feel about him the way his most blistering critics feel. He was a human being, filled with ideals and flaws, honesty and hypocrisy, charity and selfishness, modesty and the refusal to abdicate his throne. There was little simple about him. I chased the complicated story of a man and his long life. I hope that is the story I wrote.


   81. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 09:58 AM (#4209526)
in addition, current governor tom corbett (you know, the guy who also sits on penn state's board of directors and was a major force in focusing the freeh investigation on joe paterno and the penn state football team while completely ignoring the second mile) may have silenced a separate investigation into a separate pedophilia ring centered in the york county (PA) courthouse.

but there's a fairly reasonable possibility that this entire thing has been a distraction that was created to take attention away from the potential involvement of multiple high-ranking political figures who may have been crucial to a systematic coverup of the second mile's activities w/r/t the trafficking of children to wealthy pedophiles.


Huh? It was an investigation of Penn State initiated by Penn State about Penn State's handling of the situation. Why wouldn't they focus on Penn State?


Steagles was correctly pointing out that the Governor may have conflicts of interest. He wasn't suggesting the Freeh report include Second Mile activities, he was suggesting there needs to be a similar report on the Second Mile.
   82. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:02 AM (#4209528)
This is only a tangentially related question, but does anyone else suppose there might be a geographical gap in terms of how different people feel about college athletics?


Absolutely. College sports is pretty much king from Texas up through the midwest (Chicago excepted as well as probably Minneapolis, St. Louis and Detroit) on east to about College Station, PA, and covering the entire south. That's why I always though the "Big Ten will invite Rutgers because they want the NYC market!" rumors were so silly because NYC doesn't give a crap about college sports, and why should they? They have seven pro sports teams, several of which are operating at championship levels.
   83. Repoz Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:02 AM (#4209530)
But I don't feel about him the way his most blistering critics feel.

Which is why unless I get a free copy...
   84. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4209532)
by asking the questions he lists he avoids answering the hard questions. it's a clever dodge but still a dodge

and i think i captured the route that joe would take that he was the only cool head in the matter. he will present himself as the man of reason in a sea of insanity. the fair judge of a difficult situation

i will read the book and hope i am wrong. but this excerpt did nothing but confirm for me that joe was presented a with a y in the road and built himself a new road

   85. Dan Lee is some pumkins Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4209541)
That's why I always though the "Big Ten will invite Rutgers because they want the NYC market!" rumors were so silly because NYC doesn't give a crap about college sports, and why should they?
Well, in fairness, the idea was that they'd make a zillion dollars as a result of the Big Ten Network gaining carriage on NYC-area cable systems. They didn't really care if anybody in NYC follows college sports or not, as long as they gained the monthly subscriber fees.

Whether they would have gained those cable houses, I have no idea. Certainly would have improved their chances. Even if they got only 20% of the cable homes in the NYC market as a result of a Rutgers invite, that's nearly 1.5 million homes. It's like adding the entire Denver market. At $1 per household per month, which is in the ballpark for BTN's carriage rate, that's nearly $18 million a year in revenue if they had gotten 20% market penetration. Getting the entire market (which is admittedly impossible, since not every television household subscribes to cable or satellite services) would have meant nearly $90M a year in added revenue.

The New York market is so unbelievably huge that it almost doesn't matter if nobody cares about college sports. Obviously, the B1G chose not to move in that direction, but it would have been totally defensible from a business standpoint.
   86. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:21 AM (#4209542)
i remember being in the rec area of the university of michigan law school and guys were watching ivy league football on the tv and this was in 1989 or 1990

i found that fascinating
   87. JJ1986 Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:24 AM (#4209544)
They have seven pro sports teams, several of which are operating at championship levels.


Eight now, unless the Islanders don't count.
   88. SoSH U at work Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4209547)
Eight now, unless the Islanders don't count.


Isn't it nine, unless the Islanders don't count?

   89. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4209550)
on east to about College Station, PA

eh, hem, State College, PA. College Station is in TX.

I spent a little time in Hanover, PA (near Gettysburg) and HS Football was the #1 topic on Monday morning followed by college football then pro football.
   90. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:40 AM (#4209556)
If it doesn't discuss at length how the family internalized Joe's distended power as their own

SBB, I may try to use "distended power" to get my family to see PSU/Paterno/brand protection in a new light. They just can't grasp the misalignment at the University that existed.
That's an evocative phrase, thanks.
   91. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:44 AM (#4209561)
by asking the questions he lists he avoids answering the hard questions. it's a clever dodge but still a dodge


How do you know that he doesn't answer the questions in addition to asking them?
   92. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4209563)
vlad

the excerpt suggests otherwise but as i wrote earlier i will read the book

and i did write and have stated repeatedly i hope i am wrong

   93. Charles S. will not yield to this monkey court Posted: August 16, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4209566)
Even if all you say in #68 is true, Steagles, there was one man in Pennsylvania who knew what was going on, or at least knew enough abut it, and was powerful and influential enough to stop it. Not only did Paterno wake up every morning for at least 13 years and make the decision to allow the child-rape to continue, but he made sure that Sandusky continued to have credibility of PSU football next to his name. Paterno could have ended Sandusky's reign of terror with the snap of his fingers. He chose not to, most likely because he thought it would reflect badly on the football program. Spanier, Schultz and Curley chose not to because they were scared of Paterno.

That's unacceptable regardless of what the politicians and other monsters of this case did.
   94. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:09 AM (#4209580)
Absolutely. College sports is pretty much king from Texas up through the midwest (Chicago excepted as well as probably Minneapolis, St. Louis and Detroit) on east to about College Station, PA, and covering the entire south


Interestingly (at least to me), while driving home from work yesterday afternoon I heard a sports-talk caller who said he'd grown up in Texas, & that the only time anyone there really cared about college football was immediately before & after gigantic games like Texas vs. Oklahoma; otherwise, he said, everyone was obsessed with high school games. Who knows? Having grown up about 40 miles from the Texas border (& around 20 from the La. border, for that matter), I wouldn't be surprised if there's something to be said for that. Probably depends on what part of Texas he was talking about; the horrible place is about the size of 3 nations, after all.
   95. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:14 AM (#4209588)
the excerpt suggests otherwise but as i wrote earlier i will read the book

and i did write and have stated repeatedly i hope i am wrong


Fair enough.
   96. JuanGone..except1game Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4209598)
Absolutely. College sports is pretty much king from Texas up through the midwest (Chicago excepted as well as probably Minneapolis, St. Louis and Detroit) on east to about College Station, PA, and covering the entire south


Interestingly (at least to me), while driving home from work yesterday afternoon I heard a sports-talk caller who said he'd grown up in Texas, & that the only time anyone there really cared about college football was immediately before & after gigantic games like Texas vs. Oklahoma


I'd have to agree with mongoose's sports yapper. At least in Texas, HS football trumps College.
   97. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4209599)
gef

friday night lights is a book detailing the obssession texas has with high school football. from my experience it seems to run across the state
   98. zonk Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4209604)
Well, in fairness, the idea was that they'd make a zillion dollars as a result of the Big Ten Network gaining carriage on NYC-area cable systems. They didn't really care if anybody in NYC follows college sports or not, as long as they gained the monthly subscriber fees.

Whether they would have gained those cable houses, I have no idea. Certainly would have improved their chances. Even if they got only 20% of the cable homes in the NYC market as a result of a Rutgers invite, that's nearly 1.5 million homes. It's like adding the entire Denver market. At $1 per household per month, which is in the ballpark for BTN's carriage rate, that's nearly $18 million a year in revenue if they had gotten 20% market penetration. Getting the entire market (which is admittedly impossible, since not every television household subscribes to cable or satellite services) would have meant nearly $90M a year in added revenue.

The New York market is so unbelievably huge that it almost doesn't matter if nobody cares about college sports. Obviously, the B1G chose not to move in that direction, but it would have been totally defensible from a business standpoint.


Absolutely.

The B1G10 wasn't expecting a flood of Rutgers fans - they were banking more on expanding the Network and to a large extent, alums of other B1G10 schools.

Jim Delany has done an absolutely masterful job turning that Network into a pure money printing machine for members of the conference (and in truth, it's one of my favorite cable channels... it absolutely rocks). He'd invite the Bronx Upstairs College of Cosmetology into the Conference if he could craft a way to sell it without so nakedly admitting it was about getting the network into a prime market.
   99. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4209621)
Nate Silver's The Geography of College Football Fans (and Realignment Chaos)

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/

Share of NYC market:
Rutgers 20.9%
ND 9.2
PSU 6.4 (and dropping)
UConn 5.2
Michigan 5.0
Cuse 4.6
Miami 2.7
Army 2.6
OSU 2.2
BC 2.1
   100. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 16, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4209625)


I'd have to agree with mongoose's sports yapper. At least in Texas, HS football trumps College.


Yea, that's fair. I saw Allen just built a $60 million HS football stadium.

I was just thinking though that really its only big time college sports that are popular. I went to KU and they have trouble getting fans to halfway fill their 50,000 seat stadium. Anytime anyone wants to tell you football is more popular than baseball, ask them if people would be willing to pay money to watch two teams full of no-name players play, and they won't. But that happens in towns all over America for baseball. Big-time football is popular. But football in general is not as popular as baseball.
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