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Thursday, October 04, 2012

Pouliot: Red Sox can do better than John Farrell for next manager

first of all john farrell is on great manager…

With Bobby Valentine officially gone after months of being left dangling on the hook, the focus in Boston has immediately shifted to Blue Jays manager John Farrell. And I’m left to wonder why.

Now, Farrell had a sterling reputation in five years as Boston’s pitching coach. But managing a team is a different animal. And little Farrell has done in his two years in Toronto suggests that he’s very good at it. The Blue Jays’ lack of leadership was lamented by Omar Vizquel, Jason Frasor and Adam Lind of late, and while they were citing the players, too, it certainly doesn’t reflect well on the manager that they felt the need to speak out…

Under Farrell’s guidance, the Jays played .500 ball in 2011 and finished 73-89 this year. It was their worst record since 2004. They allowed their most runs since 2004, even though offense is on the decline.

Now, much of Toronto’s pitching struggles have been the result of injuries, and I’m not going to blame Farrell for the fact that the Jays can’t seem to keep their pitchers healthy. But if pitching is Farrell’s specialty, it’s hard to see what good he’s doing. Ricky Romero and Brett Cecil have regressed under his watch. Only Brandon Morrow has taken a big step forward, and he was limited to 21 starts this year.

So, no, I don’t see Farrell as the answer in Boston or really anywhere else.

The District Attorney Posted: October 04, 2012 at 03:09 PM | 52 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays, john farrell, red sox, rumors

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   1. The District Attorney Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4254363)
Addendum: Pouliot soon afterwards lobbied for Brad Ausmus.
   2. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4254382)
It's gotta be Lovullo. He looks a lot like Terry Francona.
   3. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4254404)
I still think it'll be Brad Mills.
   4. RJ in TO Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4254420)
Please, let them only do as well as John Farrell for their next manager. I'd even be okay with it if the Jays threw a C prospect into the deal.
   5. The_Ex Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4254434)
Well if Farrell is the person you expect to get the job, why not be the first to say you don't like him. Then, when he inevitably gets fired you can say I told you so.
   6. DL from MN Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4254441)
Ozzie Guillen is available
   7. RJ in TO Posted: October 04, 2012 at 04:52 PM (#4254447)
Ozzie Guillen is available

No. Only Farrell is available. They're not allowed to sign anyone else. Just Farrell. The sooner the better.
   8. ecwcat Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:03 PM (#4254466)
What's with the Farrell obsession?
   9. RJ in TO Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4254469)
I want him out of Toronto.
   10. Bruce Markusen Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4254486)
Good pitching coaches have a history of not doing as well when they become managers. One that comes to mind is Ray Miller. Another is George Bamberger.
   11.     Hey Gurl Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4254495)
Farrell is really, really bad. I absolutely hate watching him manage the jays. I have no clue what the Sox see in him but I suppose he might bebetter than valentine maybe.

I suppose it will be nice for a manager to manage someone after the jays for the first time since Bobby Cox or whatever.
   12. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4254510)
Addendum: Pouliot soon afterwards lobbied for Brad Ausmus.


Maybe BBC will follow the DH league after all
   13. Gamingboy Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4254514)
Wally the Green Monster for Manager.
   14. valuearbitrageur Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4254532)
If Sox ownership wants Farrell, he must be a pretty horrible choice.
   15. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4254533)
I hear Alfonso Soriano is available.
   16. Paul D(uda) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4254535)

YES! GET FARRELL! Man, the Sox taking Farrell would be the greatest thing ever.
   17. RJ in TO Posted: October 04, 2012 at 05:53 PM (#4254537)
To check, are there any Toronto fans here who don't want the Red Sox to get Farrell?
   18. FrankM Posted: October 04, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4254651)
To check, are there any Toronto fans here who don't want the Red Sox to get Farrell?

I'm quite happy to have Farrell go to the Red Sox. But for political / p.r. reasons, they would have to get some compensation out of Boston to placate the fan base just on general principles.
   19. dr. scott Posted: October 04, 2012 at 09:56 PM (#4254719)
I think Art Howe is available, or maybe they can just get Philip seymore Hoffman and pretend its Howe. It would be the ultimate anti money ball move.
   20. snowles Posted: October 04, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4254741)
If Boston wants to give up Daniel Bard for him I'll drive him to the airport myself.

Seriously, Brian Butterfield has been with the Jays since 2002, and outlasted 4 or 5 managers. Whose corn flakes did he poop in not to get a shot?
   21. McCoy Posted: October 04, 2012 at 10:41 PM (#4254745)
Dale Sveum is available.
   22.     Hey Gurl Posted: October 04, 2012 at 11:03 PM (#4254770)
Seriously, Brian Butterfield has been with the Jays since 2002, and outlasted 4 or 5 managers. Whose corn flakes did he poop in not to get a shot?


Sometimes a guy is so good at doing what he does it's better to let him be.
   23. snowles Posted: October 04, 2012 at 11:20 PM (#4254782)
Shock, probably could have said the same about John Farrell a couple of years ago too :)
   24. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 04, 2012 at 11:29 PM (#4254789)
Whitey Herzog wouldn't listen, if they called
   25. base ball chick Posted: October 05, 2012 at 12:46 AM (#4254822)
why exactly is it that the red sox fans want john farrell?

seems i remember they hired the pitching coach after firing someone the fans hated and THAT sure nuff didn't work out - and then it was grady little and the fustercluck of The Pedro In Too Long Game
   26. Matthew E Posted: October 05, 2012 at 08:45 AM (#4254882)
To check, are there any Toronto fans here who don't want the Red Sox to get Farrell?


I'm neutral on Farrell himself. He has some annoying habits as a manager but I imagine we could do worse.

But I don't like this idea that if the Jays have something that the Red Sox want, then of course the Red Sox' needs take priority. It is very comparable to a Yankees fan saying, of Felix Hernandez or Mike Trout or Brett Lawrie, "He'll look good in a Yankee uniform."

I don't care what the Red Sox think they need or want. They can roll it into a cone and sit on it.
   27. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 05, 2012 at 08:51 AM (#4254886)
I can speak only to the Farrell love a little bit, not from the fans but by the FO:

- the pitchers respected and feared him a little bit when he was in Boston. He brooked no crap and the pitchers followed the regimen he provided to them quite closely. I do think that if Farrell were the pitching coach in 2011 the chicken and beer nonsense never happens.

- he's very familiar with the Sox' FO, and they with him. He's clearly very intelligent and worked well with the organization in Boston.

I can't speak to why he was so terrible in Toronto, or why the fans up there hate him so much, I haven't seen enough Jays games to comment on that. I'm just noting why the Sox might want him back in Boston.
   28. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 05, 2012 at 08:53 AM (#4254887)

But I don't like this idea that if the Jays have something that the Red Sox want, then of course the Red Sox' needs take priority. It is very comparable to a Yankees fan saying, of Felix Hernandez or Mike Trout or Brett Lawrie, "He'll look good in a Yankee uniform."


Who's arguing that?

If the Sox want him then they need to pay compensation to the Jays assuming such a deal can be worked out. If a deal can't be worked out, or if the Jays don't want the Sox to talk to him, then that's that, and the Sox will have to move on to someone else. This isn't a holy war or right of first refusal or anything like that.
   29. JJ1986 Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:06 AM (#4254892)
seems i remember they hired the pitching coach after firing someone the fans hated and THAT sure nuff didn't work out


Kerrigan? I don't think he got much of a chance.
   30. OsunaSakata Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:11 AM (#4254896)
Although, in general, pitching coaches have not been good managers, Tommy Lasorda was pretty good as was Roger Craig. Bud Black hasn't embarrassed himself.
   31. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:14 AM (#4254898)
Kerrigan was a horrible manager.
   32. Matthew E Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:16 AM (#4254899)
Who's arguing that?
Oh, nobody's arguing it. But I suspect that if Farrell was currently managing, oh, the White Sox or Phillies or any other venerable U.S.-based team, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I could be wrong, of course.
   33. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:17 AM (#4254900)
Good pitching coaches have a history of not doing as well when they become managers. One that comes to mind is Ray Miller. Another is George Bamberger.


Bamberger was very successful in Milwaukee, then a disaster with the Mets.
   34. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4254913)
Good pitching coaches have a history of not doing as well when they become managers. One that comes to mind is Ray Miller. Another is George Bamberger.


I agree with the first part, but I was also thinking of Bamberger as an exception. Roger Craig too.
   35. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4254925)
Oh, nobody's arguing it. But I suspect that if Farrell was currently managing, oh, the White Sox or Phillies or any other venerable U.S.-based team, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I could be wrong, of course.


I think we would. Farrell was long rumored as Tito's replacement. Around 2008 the Sox either wouldn't allow him or bumped his contract in a way to convince him not to interview for the Pirate managerial job. No matter where he went his name was going to come up as Red Sox manager.

This is pretty simple though. If the Blue Jays don't want him to go, they hold all the cards. They just have to avoid being as stupid as the Sox were with Theo last year. Don't let him interview until AFTER compensation is worked out for example and if they aren't comfortable with him going to a division foe just refuse to allow him to interview for a lateral move as per stated Blue Jay policy.
   36. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:39 AM (#4254931)
I think we would. Farrell was long rumored as Tito's replacement. Around 2008 the Sox either wouldn't allow him or bumped his contract in a way to convince him not to interview for the Pirate managerial job. No matter where he went his name was going to come up as Red Sox manager.


IIRC at some point the Yankees wanted to talk to him about some FO job and the Sox told them to go screw.
   37. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:59 AM (#4254965)
But I don't like this idea that if the Jays have something that the Red Sox want, then of course the Red Sox' needs take priority. It is very comparable to a Yankees fan saying, of Felix Hernandez or Mike Trout or Brett Lawrie, "He'll look good in a Yankee uniform."


I don't think that's apt. Unlike those players, Farrell has gotten terrible results and the fans, at least, of his team would be happy with him gone. A better analogy to those players would be Joe Maddon, but I haven't heard anyone here implying that the Sox are entitled to the Rays manager. There is a chance that the Bluejays organization doesn't even want Farrell and would welcome the chance not to pay his salary (as they would have to do if they straight-up fired him). Some bluffing may ensue between the teams.

Furthermore, it was the Jays who got him from the Sox organization in the first place...
   38. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 05, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4254992)
Furthermore, it was the Jays who got him from the Sox organization in the first place...


I agree with your first point but I don't think this is relevant. Farrell got a promotion to go to Toronto, that's not at all an unreasonable or compensation-worthy event.
   39. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2012 at 10:32 AM (#4254999)
I agree with your first point but I don't think this is relevant. Farrell got a promotion to go to Toronto, that's not at all an unreasonable or compensation-worthy event.


Sure, but I think it's less obnoxious (in the way that Matthew E was talking about) in this case because of the history.

*

Are you going to take advantage of the Sox offer of BP at Fenway?
   40. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 05, 2012 at 10:46 AM (#4255023)
Are you going to take advantage of the Sox offer of BP at Fenway?


Unfortunately I don't think I can make it. My office is open Monday so Sunday would be my only chance and I just don't know if I'll have time to squeeze it in. I'm going to try though.
   41. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: October 05, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4255025)
You gotta make it happen, Jose. I played at Fenway back in June (Fantasy Camp Reunion game) and at 40 years old I can honestly say it was the thrill of my life.
   42.     Hey Gurl Posted: October 05, 2012 at 10:59 AM (#4255034)
My hope right now is that the Jays wait for the red sox to hire someone else, and then fire Farrell.

cause come on. #### the red sox.
   43. The District Attorney Posted: October 05, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4255035)
Bob Nightengale:
The #Bluejays are not expected to stand in the way of the #redsox pursuit of John Farrell
   44. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4255037)
My hope right now is that the Jays wait for the red sox to hire someone else, and then fire Farrell.

cause come on. #### the red sox.


Would that be construed around the league as mistreating Farrell?
   45. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2012 at 11:01 AM (#4255038)
You gotta make it happen, Jose. I played at Fenway back in June (Fantasy Camp Reunion game) and at 40 years old I can honestly say it was the thrill of my life.


I am going after work today. Not optimistic about my performance but it should be fun.
   46. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 05, 2012 at 11:03 AM (#4255042)
My hope right now is that the Jays wait for the red sox to hire someone else, and then fire Farrell.

cause come on. #### the red sox.


That would #### Farrell more than the Red Sox. I think that would be an incredible dick move. While I'm sure the Sox want Farrell I don't think Lovullo or Martinez would be that much of a difference.


You gotta make it happen, Jose. I played at Fenway back in June (Fantasy Camp Reunion game) and at 40 years old I can honestly say it was the thrill of my life.


I have to admit, there is also the fear factor. I'm a lot more Garces than Mortensen in build and not much of an athlete. The idea of jumping in, swinging and missing five times helplessly and jumping out is not exactly ego-friendly.
   47. 'Spos stares out the window, waits for spring Posted: October 05, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4255223)
My hope right now is that the Jays wait for the red sox to hire someone else, and then fire Farrell.

cause come on. #### the red sox.


Iff it came out that Farrell & the Sox were secretly negotiating in September, I'd be down with this.
   48. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 05, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4255295)
As a Jays fan, I have no attachment to Farrell. If the choice was having Cito back I'd keep him, but that's not saying much.
   49. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4255646)
BP at Fenway was fun, I got a couple of good hits in. It was nice to see the clubhouses and dugouts - the home clubhouse had a big framed picture of Pesky by the door.
   50. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: October 05, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4256082)
How long did you have to wait?
   51. Nasty Nate Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:02 PM (#4256117)
No wait to speak of. I was scheduled for 6:00, but got there early and hit before my time.
   52. Matthew E Posted: October 05, 2012 at 09:13 PM (#4256132)
As a Jays fan, I have no attachment to Farrell. If the choice was having Cito back I'd keep him, but that's not saying much.


There's only one good thing I can think of about having Cito Gaston as the Jays' manager in the 21st century: if he's the Jays' manager, then that means that he's not the Jays' GM. Honestly, when Ricciardi was fired, I flashed back to when Ash was fired. Both times I was thinking, "Hire anyone you want but not Gaston. Don't hire Gaston. Don't hire Gaston. Don't..."

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