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Wednesday, August 20, 2014

Prado at second base not how Yanks Drew it up

Jeter 267/316/321, Ichiro 276/325/323. (Also, Jeter 8-1 SB-CS, Ichiro 10-2!)

Stephen Drew was back on the bench Tuesday night. And no, Joe Girardi said, there was nothing physically wrong with the player who is supposed to be the Yankees’ starting second baseman.

That was the plan anyway when Brian Cashman acquired Drew in the extremely rare trade with the Red Sox minutes before the nonwaiver deadline on July 31… [but] The Yankees are running out of time, and Girardi can’t afford to be patient. Their best lineup now has Martin Prado at second base, where he was Tuesday night, and Ichiro Suzuki in rightfield… this is turning out to be a lost year for Drew, and it’s not just a lousy 15 games (.157/.204/.235) since the trade.

Drew’s been on a downward spiral from the jump, hitting .170/.241/.302 in 54 games divided between the two teams. The Yankees can cover for that futility to some degree by going with Prado at second now that Carlos Beltran is capable of playing the outfield again.

But it’s not like the Yankees are swimming in DHs, either. That configuration leaves Drew, Ichiro, Francisco Cervelli and Brendan Ryan with whom to mix and match. Which is why Girardi is stuck with few choices beyond using Ichiro in right, Beltran at DH and Prado at second.

The District Attorney Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:04 AM | 55 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: martin prado, stephen drew, yankees

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   1. catomi01 Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4775354)
still seems like the best alignment is drew (or ryan) at SS, prado 2B, beltran in RF, and Jeter at DH most of the time. basically the choice is drew's or ichiro's bat in the lineup - I take the better glove at SS before RF as long as Beltran can play right. If you're going to get no offense out of the spot, maximize the defensive gain. Jeter's not going to sit completely because he's jeter - so at least get his glove off the field...and as the excerpt says, its not like they have ton of options on the big league roster (damning in and of itself - Wheeler, Refsnyder, and Roller down at AAA would probably be better options with the bat at least.)
   2. Nasty Nate Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4775355)
I wonder if the poor hitting seasons of Drew and Morales will result in fewer players trying the maneuver of waiting until after the draft to sign to escape the possibility of the QO. Players might be afraid that teams won't make decent mid-season offers after seeing what happened with these 2 guys.
   3. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4775362)
I wonder if the poor hitting seasons of Drew and Morales will result in fewer players trying the maneuver of waiting until after the draft to sign to escape the possibility of the QO. Players might be afraid that teams won't make decent mid-season offers after seeing what happened with these 2 guys.


Yes, but just think about how much money Drew has made for himself in FA this offseason.
   4. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4775369)
Yes, but just think about how much money Drew has made for himself in FA this offseason.
RDF.

I actually feel bad for those two (well, as bad as I can feel for a professional athlete who makes more in a day than I do in a year). They really got screwed over by the QO system.
   5. Nasty Nate Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4775382)
I actually feel bad for those two (well, as bad as I can feel for a professional athlete who makes more in a day than I do in a year). They really got screwed over by the QO system.


The problem seems to be that the system depresses the salary offers of FA's in an uneven (proportionately) and somewhat arbitrary matter. E.G., last offseason Saltalamacchia was not affected, and Cano and Ellsbury etc were affected proportionately less than Drew and Morales.
   6. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:21 PM (#4775388)
They really got screwed over by the QO system.

Drew turned down $14M to play baseball, thinking he could make more. He was screwed by his own greed.
   7. JJ1986 Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4775403)
Drew turned down $14M to play baseball, thinking he could make more. He was screwed by his own greed.


I think it's more that players, especially guys whose value is good enough to draw a QO, don't like 1-year contracts.
   8. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4775409)
I think it's more that players, especially guys whose value is good enough to draw a QO, don't like 1-year contracts.


Well, Kendrys and Steveys shouldn't have that problem again.
   9. Nasty Nate Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4775423)
Drew turned down $14M to play baseball, thinking he could make more. He was screwed by his own greed.

I think it's more that players, especially guys whose value is good enough to draw a QO, don't like 1-year contracts.

Years and dollars are conjoined. Or the Sox would have been happy to offer Drew a 2-year deal for $14m total if he only cared about years.
   10. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4775431)
Drew vastly overestimated his own value. I don't see how he's any different from Jody Reed.
   11. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4775434)
The tagline up there inspires me to ask a question I've asked before. Over the course of their respective careers, has Ichiro been a better player than Jeter? Looking at their WAR/season, maybe the answer is yes. I'm not sure it is, but I'm pretty sure they're closer in value than most would expect.
   12. Moloka'i Three-Finger Brown (Declino DeShields) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4775455)
I think what sets Drew apart from Jody Reed is the absence of a world-beating moustache.
   13. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4775463)
They really got screwed over by the QO system.

Drew turned down $14M to play baseball, thinking he could make more. He was screwed by his own greed.

Stephen Drew turned down $14M to play baseball.... for the Boston Red Sox...on a 1-year contract. Those two extra restrictions on his employment clearly weighed heavily on his decision-making, which is why he turned it down.

The QO system is obviously not as bad as the Reserve Clause system, but it does have a lot of the same problems for players of Drew's/Morales's pedigree.
   14. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4775478)
The QO system is obviously not as bad as the Reserve Clause system, but it does have a lot of the same problems for players of Drew's/Morales's pedigree.

Is anyone seriously shedding any tears over a player whose cumulative WAR is all of 16.9 over 8 seasons who turned down a 1-year contract that would have set him up for life?

He took a chance and he lost, BFD. Some people just have to learn the hard way.
   15. JJ1986 Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:13 PM (#4775482)
Is anyone seriously shedding any tears over a player whose cumulative WAR is all of 16.9 over 8 seasons who turned down a 1-year contract that would have set him up for life?

He took a chance and he lost, BFD. Some people just have to learn the hard way.


I don't care about Drew personally, but the system is damaged if second tier free agents aren't signing during the offseason. What I don't want is for signing-after-the-draft to become a regular thing.
   16. Nasty Nate Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4775489)
Is anyone seriously shedding any tears over a player whose cumulative WAR is all of 16.9 over 8 seasons who turned down a 1-year contract that would have set him up for life?

I'm not shedding any tears but why should his potential free agent salary be artificially depressed more than Saltalamacchia's and Ellsbury's?
   17. AROM Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4775493)
What I don't want is for signing-after-the-draft to become a regular thing.


If Drew was hitting .320/.380/.500 and was viewed as the savior who put the Red Sox back in the race, and Morales had 15 homers to lead the Twins into an unlikely 3 team battle for the central, this might be a problem.

Players would see signing late as no big deal - they can pick their best path to the postseason, and sign a big contract next year without a QO in their way. Teams would be happy to sign them as well - just as good as a trading deadline pickup on the field, and you don't have to give up any prospects.

The performance of these two players makes it much less likely we'll see anyone following their example in 2015. We might even see a player or two actually accept a qualifying offer.
   18. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4775496)

I'm not shedding any tears but why should his potential free agent salary be artificially depressed more than Saltalamacchia's and Ellsbury's?


Ellsbury had the same artificial depression built in. The difference is that Ellsbury correctly read the market and Drew didn't (not that it was a tough call for Ellsbury).

The system isn't perfect but Drew and Morales went into it with their eyes open. It's not like the rule was put in place after they made their decision. I'm going to buy a car this weekend and I know that part of that purchase is going to include a 6.25% sales tax. If I don't account for that as part of my budgeting that's my own damned fault. I no more feel bad for Drew/Morales than I do for the owners when they bid against themselves and give Gary Matthews a 5/55 contract or something stupid like that.

Sometimes people make bad business decisions. If MLB had changed the rules midstream then I'd be on board with you but they didn't.
   19. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4775499)
I don't care about Drew personally, but the system is damaged if second tier free agents aren't signing during the offseason. What I don't want is for signing-after-the-draft to become a regular thing.

But isn't it just possible that clubs are realizing the risks of throwing long term contracts at second tier players in their 30's? When there's a big gap between the Drews and the Canos, and when there's a good chance that either a home grown replacement or a much cheaper free agent might fill a slot just as well as a Drew, is it really that surprising that the Drews aren't being offered the moon?

OTOH look at another sort of "second tier" free agent: Nelson Cruz, a player with a much bigger upside, but one with a steroids conviction. He's also on a one year contract, but in contrast to Drew, he's actually demonstrated on the field that he's worth a lot more than what that one year contract is paying him, and will undoubtedly be able to cash in over the offseason. Glitches aside, water will generally find its true level.
   20. JJ1986 Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:34 PM (#4775505)
I actually think the real problem is that the pick value is too high. Drew is not worth the 11th pick in the draft in any year. They could make a tiered-QO system where a 1-year offer is worth a second round pick and a 3-year offer is a worth a 1st round pick or something like that.
   21. Nasty Nate Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4775512)
Ellsbury had the same artificial depression built in.

But for him the artifical depression was much smaller proportionately. Just estimating for simplicity, it reduced Salty's FA deal 0%, Ellsbury's by 4%, and what Drew could have got on multi-year deal by 15%. One can definitely quibble with these estimates, but there's no denying that the proportions are different.

That's a separate issue from Drew making a bad financial decision.
   22. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: August 20, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4775513)
We discussed this a bunch in the offseason - the easiest solution is to not put an expiration date on accepting the QO. The player can accept the QO at any point up until the draft (obviously pro-rated once the season starts), and the team can withdraw the QO at any time (which eliminates the draft pick compensation).
   23. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 20, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4775535)
We discussed this a bunch in the offseason - the easiest solution is to not put an expiration date on accepting the QO. The player can accept the QO at any point up until the draft (obviously pro-rated once the season starts), and the team can withdraw the QO at any time (which eliminates the draft pick compensation).


It would be a nice modification, but it's not the solution to Stephen Drew's primary beef with the system.

Adding the above-mentioned provision that a team can't offer a QO in consecutive years would also be a nice bone (better in theory, since it's probably not something that would happen often anyway) to throw the players.

   24. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4775545)
What’s funny is that all of their pickups basically add up to the WAR of Cano:

2014 WAR:

5.2 Cano

2.5 Ellsbury
1.3 Roberts
1.2 McCann
-0.1 Beltran
0.3 Prado
-0.1 Drew
------------
Total = 5.1

Cano’s 2014 salary: $24 million

Ellsbury/Roberts/McCann/Beltran: $55 million

That is brutal. And it’s not like you can really be enthused about the contracts of McCann and Beltran going forward. Beltran has been replacement level this year and is old (37) and already relegated to full-time DH, at least for this year. McCann has not been much better, has had his second down year in three, and the track records for 30 year old catchers isn’t exactly pretty.
   25. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 02:35 PM (#4775552)
I know I'd rather have Cano's contract going forward than the contracts of Ellsbury/McCann/Beltran combined.
   26. JJ1986 Posted: August 20, 2014 at 02:55 PM (#4775557)
The Yankees didn't really decide between Cano and the other 3. They thought they could have Ellsbury/McCann/Cano.
   27. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 20, 2014 at 02:55 PM (#4775558)
I actually feel bad for those two (well, as bad as I can feel for a professional athlete who makes more in a day than I do in a year). They really got screwed over by the QO system.


No they weren't, Drew especially seems to have had an almost delusionally elevated belief on what he'd be "worth" on the open market, sure he had a good year in 2013, he was worthless in 2012 and frustrating as all hell prior to that, and he's now on the wrong side of 30.

he had 4.7 WAR from 2011-2013
Zack Cozart had 4.8
Pennington 4.6
Rollins 4.9 (and Drew wanted well more than what Rollins was making)
Everth Cabrera 4.3
Jed Lowrie 5.0 Drew is only a year older and has made 3 times what Lowrie has)

Drew wants/wanted Jhonny Peralta money, the trouble with that is
1: Peralta is a better player (8.1 War 2011-2013)
2: Given what guys like JJ Hardy and Yunel Escobar and Aybar are making the Cardinals overpaid for Peralta

Drew seems to have a sense of his place among MLB SSs that's been unaltered since he was the consensus "best position player" in the 2004 draft, he thinks he's at worst a minor star,
   28. Baldrick Posted: August 20, 2014 at 03:02 PM (#4775561)
I know it's been said before, but it's amazing how good this Yankees team would be if you could get the peak performance from each guy. Every single one of their position players has produced at least one 5 WAR season, and most have been in the 7/8/9 range.

Looking through them, it's also amazing just how low 2014 ranks for each guy. It's Teixeira's worst season of more than 100 PA. Same with Jeter. It's Beltran's worst season full stop. Ichiro is a shell of his pre-2011 self. Prado is well below his 2009-2012 peak. And so on. Throw Soriano into the mix, too!

Run this lineup out for pretty much any season going back to 2001 (even accounting for the fact that McCann, Prado, Headley, Gardner, and Ellsbury were all 17 then) and they'd be better than this year.
   29. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 20, 2014 at 03:02 PM (#4775562)
I know I'd rather have Cano's contract going forward than the contracts of Ellsbury/McCann/Beltran combined.


I'm sure that this wasn't on their minds, but had Cano signed a long term deal with the Yankees he'd be a serious threat to make inroads into the all-time Yankee leaderboards
   30. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 20, 2014 at 03:16 PM (#4775572)
I know it's been said before, but it's amazing how good this Yankees team would be if you could get the peak performance from each guy. Every single one of their position players has produced at least one 5 WAR season, and most have been in the 7/8/9 range.

Looking through them, it's also amazing just how low 2014 ranks for each guy. It's Teixeira's worst season of more than 100 PA. Same with Jeter. It's Beltran's worst season full stop. Ichiro is a shell of his pre-2011 self. Prado is well below his 2009-2012 peak. And so on. Throw Soriano into the mix, too!

Run this lineup out for pretty much any season going back to 2001 (even accounting for the fact that McCann, Prado, Headley, Gardner, and Ellsbury were all 17 then) and they'd be better than this year.


The proven solution to all the Yankees' problems
   31. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4775575)
I know it's been said before, but it's amazing how good this Yankees team would be if you could get the peak performance from each guy.

It isn't amazing, its a known side effect of signing washed-up former stars.
   32. Baldrick Posted: August 20, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4775593)
It isn't amazing, its a known side effect of signing washed-up former stars.

Perhaps amazing wasn't the word I was looking for. I'm not surprised that they are doing this. But still, I remain kind of blown away at how thoroughly they are committed to the bit.
   33. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: August 20, 2014 at 03:50 PM (#4775599)
What if the Yankees brought back Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina and Kevin Brown? Just think of how good they could travel back in time and be!
   34. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 20, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4775603)
It isn't amazing, its a known side effect of signing washed-up former stars.


Perhaps amazing wasn't the word I was looking for. I'm not surprised that they are doing this. But still, I remain kind of blown away at how thoroughly they are committed to the bit.

Well, it's either that or purge the payroll and go into the tank while they try to rebuild from the bottom up. You have to realize that a large part of those over-the-hill Big Name signings have as much to do with marketing as they do to winning baseball games. What would the Yankees attendance have looked like without the presence of all those "stars" in the lineup on the roster, regardless of how they've actually performed? Remember that they sell all those season tickets before reality has a chance to sink in.
   35. AROM Posted: August 20, 2014 at 04:23 PM (#4775640)
A few years ago, when they had guys like Eric Chavez and Andruw Jones on the bench, the Yankees had a team that would have been unbelievable if the year could be turned back to 2005.

I remember thinking something along those lines watching the Angels in 83. They had an entire lineup full of former MVPs and all stars. Except maybe short, Tim Foli, who was once the #1 overall draft pick. Average age was about 34, and they lost 92 games.
   36. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: August 20, 2014 at 04:31 PM (#4775647)
They thought they could have Ellsbury/McCann/Cano.


Is this true?
   37. BDC Posted: August 20, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4775654)
Signing aging stars didn't hurt the Yankees for a long time. The amount of wear left on Sheffield, Giambi, Damon, Granderson et al. was remarkable. They've gotten less lucky, or other teams have sewed up the potential stars younger or simply have more money now, or all of the above.
   38. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 20, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4775664)
Signing aging stars didn't hurt the Yankees for a long time. The amount of wear left on Sheffield, Giambi, Damon, Granderson et al. was remarkable. They've gotten less lucky, or other teams have sewed up the potential stars younger or simply have more money now, or all of the above.

It's all of the above, but then for many years the backbone of the Yankees' roster consisted of Jeter, Bernie, Mo, Posada, and Pettitte, all farm system products. The Yankees' 125-50 1998 team of 1998 had a smaller payroll than the 79-83 Orioles.
   39. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 04:59 PM (#4775668)
For a second there, Andy, I was reading that reference as being to the 1979-1983 Orioles, & I figured you'd lost your mind.
   40. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 20, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4775697)
For a second there, Andy, I was reading that reference as being to the 1979-1983 Orioles, & I figured you'd lost your mind.

Hell, the 1983 Orioles total payroll was probably below that of the top five Yankees, and likely the top five Angels.
   41. Walt Davis Posted: August 20, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4775726)
I thought Drew made the right decision in that somebody would offer him 3/$36 or so. Maybe somebody did and he turned it down but otherwise he and I were both wrong.

Morales and Cruz I thought made obvious mistakes. David Ortiz has a hard time getting multi-year contracts and his annual salary is usually around $14 M. Billy Butler's not an FA yet but he wasn't making big money in his arb years and wasn't in line for anything above $14 M. Neither had a hitting track record anywhere near Ortiz's.

It's not even clear the gamble will work out for Cruz. His 132 OPS+ is not impressive by full-time DH standards (although I see he's been playing in the field a bit lately) and he'll be 34. If you figured he could have had 1/$14 this year, probably then 1/$14 (or the QO might be up to $15) next year he's got to sign for at least 2/$21 this offseson just to break even in dollar terms and that's not including whatever he might make in 2016 if he'd taken the QOs.

Basically the best I think these guys could have hoped for last year was 2/$28 and most likely less. I suppose Cruz can hope for more but I'd still be surprised if he could do better than 2/$28 as a restricted FA. Turning down what was essentially 1/$14 with a $14-15 mutual option for a chance at 2/$28 was silly.
   42. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 07:48 PM (#4775830)
I just looked at the Yankees stats for this year.

Brett Gardner has 15 HR?!?!?!
   43. bigglou115 Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:01 PM (#4775848)
Prado was a pretty good glove man when he was a Brave. Moving him to OF in the first place always seemed like a waste.
   44. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:08 PM (#4775857)
So much for the "Beltran's healthy enough to play RF this year" wishcasting from the Yankees ...

(though, since it's only bone chips, he should be fine for next year after off-season surgery)
   45. Walt Davis Posted: August 21, 2014 at 02:16 AM (#4776106)
Brett Gardner has 15 HR?!?!?!

Apparently he also leads the AL in sac bunts ... that's pretty sad and dumb.
   46. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2014 at 08:55 AM (#4776153)
Brett Gardner has 15 HR?!?!?!

I could have made a LOT of money last year on a "More HR, Brett Gardner or David Wright?" bet. Oh wait, no, lost money.
   47. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 21, 2014 at 09:13 AM (#4776163)
His 132 OPS+ is not impressive by full-time DH standards


What do you think full-time DH standards are?

Qualified DH's in 2014
V Martinez - .945 OPS
D Ortiz - .878
N Cruz - .842
C Carter - .812
A Dunn - .784
B Butler - .715

Expand that to all DH's in the AL and Cruz drops to 4th, behind Adam Lind (.859 OPS in 192 AB's)

two guys who just miss qualifying

C Beltran - .707
A Callaspo - .604


Cruz's numbers look pretty good to me.

This lack of full time action is what I don't get about the DH position, and why I think it's under-appreciated. If you want to rest someone, give them the day off, don't have them DH. Use the opportunity, like the Red Sox have done, and find someone who can hit well and is willing to be a DH full time. Stop wasting the batting spot by using it as the scrap hole.
   48. Russ Posted: August 21, 2014 at 09:37 AM (#4776186)
Drew is not worth the 11th pick in the draft in any year.


I think this is probably untrue, unless you're only thinking about the upside. From this article on draft pick value in 2013: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-changing-value-of-draft-picks/, these are the 11th picks for 2000-2012:

2000Dave Krynzel
2001
Kenny Baugh
2002
Jeremy Hermida
2003
Michael Aubrey
2004
Neil Walker
2005
Andrew McCutchen
2006
Max Scherzer
2007
Phillippe Aumont
2008
Justin Smoak
2009
Tyler Matzek
2010
Deck Mcguire
2011
George Springer
2012
Addison Russell 


So you could get Scherzer or you could get McCutchen, but other than that, does that pick really have more net present value than that one guaranteed year of Drew?
   49. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 21, 2014 at 10:11 AM (#4776210)
So you could get Scherzer or you could get McCutchen, but other than that, does that pick really have more net present value than that one guaranteed year of Drew?


Yes, and hell yes, its not just Scherzer and McCutchen, Drew's post 30 year(s) are not gonna be worth Neil Walker's first 5, or Springer's and probably not Addison Russell's, it's not even a lottery ticket- a lottery ticket s a 1 in a million chance, you have at least a 1 in 10 chance of someone who just bows Drew out of the water and at least 1 in three of merely matching or beating his performance.

that's not the question though, the question is if giving up your #11 worth 3-4 years of Stephen Drew? 3-4 years where due to the "winner's curse" (and Drew's inflated sense of self-worth) you'll be over paying Drew for the pick you give up (and who would be giving up #11?)
   50. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 21, 2014 at 10:19 AM (#4776215)
The 1995 Yankees were similar, with Boggs, Mattingly, and Fernandez in the infield. Lots of people said "an IF of all-stars!" Yes, if the year was 1987. OTOH, that team had a lot of talent outside of that group.
   51. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 21, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4776233)

It's not even clear the gamble will work out for Cruz. His 132 OPS+ is not impressive by full-time DH standards


I don't know how you're using "impressive" but that performance is good for a DH. No, it's not going to get him close to MVP value, but you'd sign for that. It's worth about 3 WAR, I think.
   52. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 21, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4776234)
The 1995 Yankees were similar, with Boggs, Mattingly, and Fernandez in the infield. Lots of people said "an IF of all-stars!" Yes, if the year was 1987. OTOH, that team had a lot of talent outside of that group.

And the last place 1966 Yankees had virtually the same everyday starting lineup as their 1964 AL championship team, including their last three starting pitchers (Stottlemyre, Downing, Bouton) in the 1964 World Series. Age is a #####.
   53. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 21, 2014 at 11:01 AM (#4776265)
Age is a #####.


Yes it is, but that's a bad example
1966's best player was... Micky Mantle 170 OPS+
In fact 1966 had a better offense than 1964

The trouble was that the pitching staff collapsed

1: Whitey Ford was 1964's best pitcher 6.7 WAR, he was 37, only 73 innings in 1966 (still effective)- we'll chalk that up to age
2: Bouton got hurt (no age related) and threw 150 fewer innings
3: Stottlemyre had the best 96 innings of his career in 1964- and the worst year of his career in 1966

And St Pythag was unhappy, tbe 1966 Yankees were 70*-89, but 79-80 by Pythag

It was the 1967 Yankees that REALLY collapsed- some of that was age (Mantle, Howard retired, Maris was gone) a lot of it was that their young guys didn't just not progress, guys like Pepitone and Tresh began actively regressing
   54. JE (Jason) Posted: August 21, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4776308)
I'm sure that this wasn't on their minds, but had Cano signed a long term deal with the Yankees he'd be a serious threat to make inroads into the all-time Yankee leaderboards

The mongos who call into WFAN must be shocked that Robbie Cano hasn't been forgotten and continues to be one of the more marketable stars in the game.
   55. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 21, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4776392)

The 1995 Yankees were similar, with Boggs, Mattingly, and Fernandez in the infield. Lots of people said "an IF of all-stars!" Yes, if the year was 1987. OTOH, that team had a lot of talent outside of that group.


Except that Boggs was an AS in '95 and '96. At least one of the guys played well.

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