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Free Enterprise 101 -- If you loan money to somebody who can't pay you back, and you don't get collateral enough to cover the loan -- you lose.
I'm just not sure those polls really tell us much about how people, especially those in the mushy middle, would react to the Court overturning ACA. I think the polls tells us that ACA isn't especially popular or unpopular right now, but that's about it.
For the same reason, I think it's very difficult to predict how this will impact the election. Does it fire up the left? the Right? Does it box Romney in? There's no clear answer.
When I was 17 the drinking age in my state was 18.
Just before I turned 18 the age was changed to 19.
Halfway through age 19 it was changed to 21.
Even though it had very little impact on my drinking behavior (from the POV of under 21s, it operated like an extra tax, now we had to pay some shiftless older dudes to buy stuff for us- which in fact was what you did when you were under 18 anyway)
I and all my friends were royally pissed off- most of us didn't even have cars...
Take notes! A libertarian-leaning lawyers' blog I sometimes read is having a contest, setting its readers in search of "the most egregious example of hysterical, shrieking outrage, or smug, gloating condescension, produced on the World Wide Web today." This can be over the Supreme Court Case and/or the Eric Holder contempt vote. The winner gets a DVD of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan!
I was holding out some hope that this thread goes nuclear and that I can scrape something from it before it gets erased, but so far you people are sorely disappointing.
That is to say, if any of those three conditions were to change- say the IRS were allowed to proceed with punitive sanctions or the payment amount was increased substantially- would the payment cease to be a permissible tax, and become an impermissible penalty at that point? Would the entire act be unconstitutional at that point, or would only the legislation that changed the payment/collection terms be unconstitutional?
If the terms under which the payment is a permissible tax- and not an impermissible penalty- are locked in, that would be a very interesting result going forward.
Aha! If only they'd have been further investigated, everyone could have seen that they needed to be arrested, indicted, and prosecuted!
Wait, are we talking about financial crooks or suspicious looking Latinos?
Whether you believe it or not, my point about bubbles/cocoons was not trollery. Getting a kick out of the reactions was just a langiappe. Even to the extent we are defined by our allegiances, there are less.... self-indicting ways to address statements such as my earlier comment.
How about a nice game of meta-chess?
See this? You missed it.
1) The right won the branding battle. Not only does everyone call it Obamacare, but I found that people didn't even necessarily know what I meant when I wrote "ACA". I don't think this is winnable.
2) I am not a public figure. It doesn't matter what I say, except in the very most marginal of senses, so I'm going with the one everyone recognizes.
3) There's a long game in play, at least for liberals who unlike me are public figures. If Obamacare survives, it's likely to be quite popular. I think there's some marginal value in having a massive and popular state program named after a president who's affiliated with the left - don't take away my Roosevelt Retirement Fund or my JohnsonCare... um, we would have needed rebranding on the latter. But you see the point.
Hey - it wasn't my side of the aisle here in the US that took that seemed to be saying that during the debt ceiling debate.
But globally, yes -- lenders to sovereign states have to assume risk, too. I'm not saying "we're not paying you back" -- the US can easily afford to satisfy its debts. So can most European countries... A few cannot - Greece, Spain*, maybe Italy and out in the Pacific Rim at some point soon, probably Japan. It's madness to expect a sovereign nation to putting servicing debt to lenders as paramount to serving its citizens. There will be trade-offs. Some of those trade-offs will involve lenders taking a haircut. That's not free, of course, but plenty of nations have defaulted on debts and none of them no longer have a sovereign credit card.
I would, however, pay good money for some "JohnsonCare."
No, it shouldn't. The fact that you think there's a conspiracy to take over blah blah blah blah blah doesn't indicate that rational people should concede your conspiracy. It indicates that you're paranoid.
The reason liberals wanted to pass public health insurance options is because they wanted to provide affordable healthcare options to people who currently don't/didn't have it.
My nominee would be the tweet I saw reproduced on Facebook about an hour ago --
"This is the greatest destruction of individual liberty since Dred Scott. This is the end of America as we know it. No exaggeration." It came from something called Ben Shapiro, who I gather from Wikipedia occupies the same padded cell as some of our more right-wing nutjobs here.
Since I'm cocooned on an Air Force base right now, I'm wondering if I'll find myself driving through flaming rubble when I drive home after work in about 4 hours. No doubt the riots have already started.
The opinion specifically cites and discusses Dole, and distinguishes it for a number of reasons. I don't think anything changes in that vein.
Oh they're going to love gas prices there.
My guess is any change to one of those three might tip the scales would invalid the new legislation making that change only. Pretty sure at this point, there's no unringing this bell. As to how much of a change would trigger 'unconstitutional'.... wild-ass guessing: amount would have to be higher than insurance and criminal sanctions added to a violation.
You are aware that "being quite reasonably suspected of committing massive fraud" is not the same category of crime as "looking Mexican," yes?
You used to be able to get this at various intersections along the West Side Highway. Not so much any more.
You're going to have organized non-payment of the penalty in hopes of litigating the zeal with which the IRS pursues the non-payers.
Neal Boortz on Twitter - I would SERIOUSLY consider moving to Texas if it would secede from the union and re-form as The Republic of Texas. It has that power.
OTOH, proposing a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, superseding California's legalization of marijuana, some conservatives back a federal ban on abortion, and the other SCOTUS decision last week that got less play where Montana's corporate campaign contribution rules were struck down even in state and local elections.
I thought this was interesting. I guess when you win, you want to own the name.
They did, and a number of states have, although it was ONLY for military vets. I don't believe any have passed.
OH PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEASE!
I can't wait for somebody refer it to our nation's holocaust next.
Yup. But what if the IRS just audits some of the returns, adds in the penalty, and sends a bill? Seems like the IRS can withhold money, adjust refunds, etc.
JoeyB, you're on!
So we're invading Canada?
No, it shouldn't. The fact that you think there's a conspiracy to take over blah blah blah blah blah doesn't indicate that rational people should concede your conspiracy. It indicates that you're paranoid.
The reason liberals wanted to pass public health insurance options is because they wanted to provide affordable healthcare options to people who currently don't/didn't have it.
Liberals didn't need to pass public health insurance options to provide affordable healthcare options to people who currently don't/didn't have it. Liberals were always free to reach into their pockets and give anybody any of their money. Liberals needed the law in order for those that are healthy and/or with means to subsidize those that are sick and/or without means.
Whether or not the law was justified is a separate issue, but liberals as a group aren't providing anything here - the liberals and conservatives and moderates and anyone else who is on the losing end of the money scale that will be subsidizing healthcare options are ultimately the ones who are providing the additional healthcare options.
It's OK ... the vast majority of them can afford it and are already privileged by the system anyway.
At some point, the ability to turn money into privileges that shouldn't be for sale needs to end (*) and the healthcare reform is a perfectly decent place to start.
(*) The things that money can buy are, of course, the real problem with the rising inequality in the country, more so than the actual differences in income and wealth.
I HEREBY DECLARE MY CANDIDACY FOR PREFECT OF BROWNSVILLE.
And the Amish partially fund wars too. Ray's position is that the ACA, and pretty much ever "liberal" action, is not to be taken at face value for what it does and what it is said to accomplish by it's proponents. Rather, we should assume that the arguments in favor of those actions are lies and cover stories, to hide the true goal of all "liberal" action, which is the takeover of everything by "the state" and the creation of baby eating zombie lizards in secret government labs. It's conspiracy theory 101, some straight-outta-Elders-of-Zion Illuminati level crazy.
Disagree with the policy. Disagree with the theory. But for god's sake, don't reduce your opponent* to a silly cartoon of evil conspirators just because you're that lazy.
*except David. All rules disapply with David.
Gotta love true patriots that love America.
Out of curiosity, what can money buy today that it couldn't buy in previous generations?
Before Rick Perry declared his intention to seek the Republican Nomination, he declared that Texas still had the right to succeed when he wanted to. If he ever made it to the general election, how the heck would that have played out without him being beat over the head with it.
I'm not arguing whether the bill is good or whether the bill is bad. But if one's going to play the "compassion card" then whose skin is in the game should be properly assigned. Passing a bill that provides something is a large step from being the one actually tasked to personally provide that something. If I shovel Frank's driveway, I get credit for the work. But if I pass a law making Joe shovel Frank's driveway, even if I set into motion the conditions that got Frank's driveway shoveled, Joe's the one that actually provided the labor, even if he was against the bill.
Tricorders/Phasers. Smartphones are that thing that people on Star Trek used to do whatever they need to do.
Let's just call this "luxury tech" as a holding pen. Rich people could afford more luxury tech in 1587 than poor people, just like now.
Texas is a large State- it is also surprisingly diverse-SOME of those states would almost certainly be one where non-hispanic whites were a clear minority...
Right now Texas has 2 reliably conservative senators, split Texas 5 ways and the most likely outcome would be 56 conservative, 4 liberal- essentially little or no impact on the Senate's ideological balance.
Now- PR or DC??? That would push things a bit.
When the NLRB was going forward with their their plan to block Boeing from opening its plant in North Charleston, state radio was filled with calls for South Carolina to secede. If it came to a state referendum, I would take one for good ol' Team USA and vote with the secessionists.
It's called projection, Conservatives are always advancing X as a backdoor way of reaching Y so they assume that's what everyone else does as well.
Not that liberals do not in fact sometimes do that- but Obamacare does not appear to be one of those times
Someone doesn't know Google Goggles were invented.
Rich people could afford more luxury tech in 1587 than poor people, just like now.
But our luxury tech is way cooler.
One blue, three reds, one toss-up.
El Norte would vote D.
Plainland, Trinity, and Gulfland would vote R.
New Texas would be a toss-up state, with Austin pulling D and the outer counties pulling R.
DC and PR both add D reps and Senators.
NoCal goes D, SoCal is a toss-up.
And lets merge some of the small New England states and the large rectangle Western states. I mean two Dakotas???? Who needs em?
Spots in elite universities and their feeder schools, political influence, health, your children's health, surrogate mothers, the ability to name stadiums, the ability to prosecute war on behalf of states, the ability to not serve in the military, and a bunch more.
The best way to attack income and wealth inequality isn't leveling the incomes; it's negating the privileges that money can buy.
How does the same thing not apply to say, the postal service? Personally, I have zero use for the mail anymore -- I'm entirely digital in all forms of commerce and communication. In addition, I live in a major metropolitan area which is certainly going to continue to be profitable for mail delivery. If the USPS went away - people would be free to individually subsidize communication/mail/whatever in isolated rural areas... Or -- let's say electric service... or whatever.
It boils down to what you believe belongs in that 'social' bucket and what doesn't. We've simply added healthcare (or rather, insurance, since I would make the case we long ago added healthcare -- we just didn't pay for it) to that bucket.
But if you're going that route, you might as well just break the entire model and start over.
I thought that was pretty rampant in the Civil War.
The 38 States
I certainly haven't played the "compassion card." The card I've played is that the market and market values shouldn't have much to do with health outcomes.
Three state California breakup.
Free Republic can get you close:
It looks like the “Great American Experiment” is over with.
I WILL NOT SUCCUMB TO THEIR SLAVERY ANYMORE!
OBAMACARE = SLAVERY
Heh, so it turns out Roberts is the same kind of Democrat faggot as Souter.
With The Supreme Court upholding Obamacare, The Death Panels are not far behind. If you are a Democrat and need a kidney, you get it. If you are a member of the Tea Party and need a kidney, sorry you are out of luck. Very soon, Death Panels will decide who lives and who dies. How will these Death Panels make life and death decisions? I think I know the answer.
Just took my flag down with tears in my eyes. My country is gone.
It’s reparations. 0bama said that he didn’t favor a reparations payment, but instead preferred implementing perpetual social programs that achieved more wealth transfer in perpetuity, all the while keeping the race-grievance industry alive.
When my wonderful man, Arpaio, and his Cold Case Posse come forth, this should send everything into a huge spin. How can any of these things with BO/BS’s signature be legal? He is an illegal president; therefore, everything he signed and continues to sign is illegal and worthless. I can’t wait for the Cold Case Posse to come forth.
Good times!
That was one thing I was specifically wondering about. Do you have a page cite for that?
While we're at it, can we finally expand the house of reps again? We quit growing it in the early 20th century, and there's no reason why it couldn't be a couple hundred members larger without compromising how it works at this present time.
There was a downstate Illinois rep (a Democrat, actually, I think) who had proposed breaking up Illinois into "Chicagoland" and "Illinois"... as a liberal who has no real problem with subsidizing services and infrastructure at a government level in places where such subsidization is necessary, I opposed this. As a Chicagoan playing 'Monkey's Paw Wishes' -- I'd have liked to see it happen.
Obama yappin' again-why aren't there any American flags in the frame? Typical The flag to Obama is like the siver cross to Dracula
I am loving the internet right now
Neal Boortz is retiring soon anyway, but good luck with that.
I've seen that, but I think if we go that route we should target maybe 12-16 states all told, with distinct districts (counties, municipalities) and reduce the federal apparatus by half.
Repeal the Reapportionment Act of 1929 -- but I can guarantee you that the ideological descendants of the same folks who put a hard stop on growth 100 years ago would put a stop to it now.
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea, but no possible way it ever goes anywhere.
1. This statement wins the internet today.
2. I'm terrified, but incapable of not Googling up what the hell "Cold Case Posse" means. Early money is on some apocalyptic militia ####.
We actually began a couple weeks back. War of 2012! They don't have Laura Secord to save them this time!
Roberts is going to take so much #### for this decision even though his dictum on the commerce clause there's 5 votes for significantly restricting it in the future and the restriction on sticks to get states to do stuff is potentially a big deal. And that's ignoring that this case simply wasn't that difficult on the law, depending upon your philosophy it either worked because it was in line with past valid exercises of the tax and cc and np powers, or it wasn't because you thought those earlier decisions were mistakes.
Oh they're going to love gas prices there.
Especially when they discover that $2.00 only buys them a litre.
------------------------------------------------------------
Wait, are we talking about financial crooks or suspicious looking Latinos?
You are aware that "being quite reasonably suspected of committing massive fraud" is not the same category of crime as "looking Mexican," yes?
Tell that to Sheriff Arpaio and you'll be dressed in a pink jumpsuit before you know it.
He had a three-pronged plan of attack for dealing with the spin, but he forgot it.
oh and one more....
benshapiro@benshapiro
This is the greatest destruction of individual liberty since Dred Scott. This is the end of America as we know it. No exaggeration.
Spots in universities and feeder schools were around at least a century ago, as was the ability to not serve in the military going back to the civil war. Health is dodgier, but a modern median earner is going to live a lot longer than his century or two ago counterpart as well. And as for warring on behalf of states, if you go back far enough and squint you've got the whole feudal system before strong central governments.
About time. When we shoot them we'll see how their socialized medical care works. "Sorry, Gaston, but rocket launcher wounds are not covered by your government program".
Deal, Clarence ..it'll peter out after 1,000 or so. I win if the moderator cuts it off when death threats are exchanged.
It's certainly true that Texas does have some liberal regions, and that its demographics are changing. For this to achieve Boortz's goal, he would of course want to figure out a way to gerrymander it so that it is in fact five regions that are all majority conservative. I don't know how possible that is. It surely wouldn't hold up forever, in any event.
No way that post wins the internet... freeper is entertaining, but they're pikers next to Jonah Goldberg's mommy's site (lucianne.com):
This is a horrible day for America. Expect the elections to be cancelled in November. Barky will have us in a war with Iran by then. King Barack is in control now.
How does it feel to be murders of your fellow Americans SC? Now we will have the death panels. You are fascists scum pigs. May you when you pass live in the hottest part of you know where for eternity.
Will any state have the courage to seceed? I will immediately move to the first state to delcare independence from the tyrannical USA. Let it be Texas.
The best medical care system in the whole world has just been shot to hell. I will be 61 this year so I assume I will never be able to see a doctor or have a medical procedure again. We are no longer in control of our own destiny. I assume that within a year we will be forced to purchase an electric car.
We are now all serfs to the government of the US. We can be taxed to death and taxed in death. We fought the revolutionary war over a 3% tea tax and taxes with out representation. This goes beyond pale and YES Roberts is no constitutional scholar just another black robed dictator.
Just got out my flag.... "Don't Tread on ME"
I'm so upset, almost weepy. We just don't deserve this especially coming from the anti-American, immoral Obama and democrats.
Heartsick and very worried.
For people in better shape than I'm in right now, is repeal possible?
I spit on you, 'justice' Roberts. Traitor to the Constitution, traitor to the nation. You have handed this country's future to the brownshirts. I expected no better from the other four. I thought, though, that you had great regard for the Constitution and its basic foundation of limited government. My confidence in you was obviously misplaced. You have sold us into slavery to the government. We are no longer a free people. We are subjects. You should be held in great contempt by all freedom-loving Americans. We now have no freedom to love! Only such 'privileges' as may be granted by 'the government'. I have defended Pres. Bush for a long time. This time, it truly IS his fault.
This is my favorite, though -- lots of irrational weeping today --
I am weeping tears right now, out of fear.
I am one of the ones who will soon be subjected to an appearance before a "Death Panel".
My guess is that at my end, I will not even be allowed to compassionate care at Hospice. When my spouse died, he did so with compassionate people all around him.
I will have government workers who don't give a DAMN.
IF we can elect Romney, I suggest revisiting the Supreme Court. America simply cannot afford to have 9 people accountable to no one, serving for life.
They ruled that you do NOT have the right to your own property (Kelo), and now you do not have the right to your OWN body.
They bent into pretzels, seeing that clearly the Individual Mandate is UNconstitutional, so they called it a tax.
The full force of Government will now be used against any citizen who refuses to submit to Obamacare.
Roberts also needs to be looked at more closely..something really smells with his actions.
We the People deserve an explanation as to why the Supreme Court has reinstituted SLAVERY again in America.
My new handle. I just have to put it up.
I'm speaking of the changed circumstances in America since about 1980.
WELCOME, COMRADE!
Wait, I thought Barack was a secret Muslim?
I would make more fun, but I more worry for their mental health if they're at all serious. For balance, I feel the way when I read some very liberal sites too. And I'd be spitting nails right now if the whole law had been struck down, because that would simply be a complete reversal of severability doctrine.
eta:
Whoops! Even so, I think the school part of what I said stands and there was the whole National Guard for the connected during Vietnam.
You know, there are some people who believe stuff like this.
What are these people going to do when
A; The jackbooted thugs don't show up
B; they can still see a doctor;
C; there are no death panels?
I know true believers never change their opinions, but the level of unhinged delusion is scary
Wait, is this a list of things you can buy now that you couldn't buy before? Because people have been buying all of that #### since the Roman Republic at the very least.
People bought MRIs and cancer operations in ancient Rome?
Texans would succeed only if Perry seceded.
People overreact when they're pi$$ed. It's nothing new.
You forgot BTF's own
Lunatics of a feather flock together, I suppose.
Roberts starts that discussion on page 50 of his opinion.
That's on page 51
Yep. Heck, my dad's reaction to blown calls in baseball lead to epic rants about the lack of integrity in baseball.
686: Thanks. That could end up in a lot of different places depending on how it's applied.
Yes. They were more advanced than ours. They came in small packages called "leeches."
There is no such thing as an overreaction to blown calls against your baseball team.
I'm so all over this. Everything is too damn big and unwieldy in this country. I'm not talking about the Federal government, I'm talking about the country itself. We can't make the whole country smaller, but we can break in half any state that reaches 8 million. So the new states:
California becomes 9 states.
Texas becomes 6 states.
New York and Florida become 4 states.
Illinois and Pennsylvania become 3 states.
Ohio, Michigan, Georgia, North Carolina, New Jersey, and Virginia become 2 states.
That brings us 79 states. It breaks up the power of the megastates of California and Texas and lessens the relative Senatorial power of the South Dakotas and Vermonts of the world. The biggest states are now Washington, Massachusetts, Indiana, Arizona, and Tennessee. Also, in another 20 years or so we'll roll Delaware and DC into Maryland, then break the resultant state in two. Because I feel like it.
I'd vote for any party that ran on this platform. I'd vote for the Peoples Revolutionary Fascist-Maoists if this was a part of their platform.
Of course. He does it about any blown call, though. He's cruising towards his crotchety years with a full head of steam.
He's a secret *Sunni* Muslim!
I'm trying to think of a good reason to ever not vote for the PRFMP.
This guy needs to keep his conspiracy theories straight. Agenda 21 says we will all be forced to take public transportation.
Yes, but would you donate to their PAC?
If they're running against the Popular Peoples Revolutionary Fascist-Maoists, of course.
You must have missed the last meeting - that hasn't yet been decided. We are still awaiting bids from the UAW union masters and the AFSCME conductors and engineers....
Wait, what about bikes? Bike shares?
I've been at the meetings.
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