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Thursday, January 29, 2009

Primer Dugout 1-29-09

Happy Birthday, Steve Sax.

GGC for Sale Posted: January 29, 2009 at 12:59 PM | 28 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Dudefella Posted: January 29, 2009 at 01:19 PM (#3063114)
I heard some guy got killed in New York City, and they never solved the case.
   2. Repoz Posted: January 29, 2009 at 01:25 PM (#3063115)
Blame A-Rod.
   3. RJ in TO Posted: January 29, 2009 at 01:58 PM (#3063134)
But there are hundreds of unsolved murders in New York City.
   4. Robert S. Posted: January 29, 2009 at 02:15 PM (#3063152)
You don't know when to keep your mouth shut, do you, Saxxy Boy?
   5. Hack Wilson Posted: January 29, 2009 at 02:27 PM (#3063162)
When the Sox acquired Sax at age 32 he was a "cinch to get 3000 hits."

I think he was only charged with six by Chief Wigguns.
   6. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 29, 2009 at 02:33 PM (#3063174)
When the Sox acquired Sax at age 32 he was a "cinch to get 3000 hits."
Really? Even by convention wisdom, a 32 year-old with less than 1800 hits seems like an odd choice to be a "cinch" for 3K. Did people really think he was going to bang out 200 hits at age 32-37?
   7. 1k5v3L Posted: January 29, 2009 at 02:35 PM (#3063177)
Did people really think he was going to bang out 200 hits at age 32-37?
Define "hits"
   8. Tiboreau Posted: January 29, 2009 at 02:47 PM (#3063182)
Did this once, a few years ago . . . The best players in each team's history, considering only time spent with the team in question:

LAA: Tim Salmon
PHI/KC/OAK: Rickey Henderson (close 2nd: Lefty Grove)
SEA: Ken Griffey Jr.
TEX: Ivan Rodriguez

CHW: Luke Appling
CLE: Bob Feller
DET: Ty Cobb
KCR: George Brett
WS1/MIN: Walter Johnson (just MIN: Harmon Killebrew)

SLB/BAL: Cal Ripken Jr. (just SLB: George Sisler)
BRS: Ted Williams
NYY: Babe Ruth
TBR: Carl Crawford
TOR: Dave Stieb

ARI: Randy Johnson
COL: Todd Helton
BKN\LAD: Jackie Robinson (followed by Duke Snider, Sandy Koufax & Don Drysdale)
SDP: Tony Gwynn
NY\SFG: Willie Mays

CHC: Cap Anson
CIN: Johnny Bench
HOU: Jeff Bagwell
SEP/MIL: Robin Yount
PIT: Honus Wagner
STL: Stan Musial

BSB/MIL/ATL: Hank Aaron (just two years removed from playing with all 3)
FLO: Miguel Cabrera
NYM: Tom Seaver
PHI: Mike Schmidt
MON\WSN: Tim Raines

Several of these are easy, like DET & PIT. Others are much harder; I'm still unsure about LAD & LAA--others might prefer Grich, Tanana or Nolan Ryan for the latter. Gabby Hartnett was another very good Cub; is there another I'm missing from the 20th century--any who could be considered preferable to Anson? Some might prefer Frank Thomas to Mr. Appling. Pete Rose of course had a nice career with CIN and Joe Morgan a nice peak. As a PNWer I had to add SEP even though they were only around for 1 year and too early for Yount. I'm not positive on TOR, a BTF canadian may make a better argument for someone I may not've recalled. Is there anyone obvious I'm forgetting? Nothing rigorous to see here, just passing the time. . . .
   9. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 29, 2009 at 02:57 PM (#3063189)
Gabby Hartnett was another very good Cub; is there another I'm missing from the 20th century--any who could be considered preferable to Anson?


Possibly Ernie Banks if you're a strong advocate of timelining, or Sammy Sosa if you prefer peak along with strong timelining.

Overall, your suggestions are really strong. There were none that jumped out at me where I said, "No, you fool, you forgot this other obvious person!" At the most, you can say that some guys have equally strong or maybe slightly better cases - in addition to the ones you identify, Biggio v. Bagwell struck me.
   10. Tiboreau Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:03 PM (#3063201)
Yeah, I thought about Biggio after posting. I think I still prefer Bagwell, but Biggio's close for sure.
   11. SoSH U at work Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:05 PM (#3063205)
The only thing that struck me, besides the same six-of-one, half-dozen of the other Bagwell selection that Kiko noticed, was the exclusion of WS2 in the Texas entry, considering your Pilots inclusion.
   12. GGC for Sale Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:07 PM (#3063209)
Frank Howard is pissed.
   13. Tiboreau Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:18 PM (#3063222)
The only thing that struck me, besides the same six-of-one, half-dozen of the other Bagwell selection that Kiko noticed, was the exclusion of WS2 in the Texas entry, considering your Pilots inclusion.

Frank Howard is pissed.


Oops, and I included the other two WSH clubs as well . . . sorry Frank.
   14. aleskel Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:23 PM (#3063231)
If you put a just-LA Dodgers entry, it would be Piazza, right?

(EDIT: okay, maybe Koufax)
   15. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:27 PM (#3063235)
If you put a just-LA Dodgers entry, it would be Piazza, right?

Koufax? He has Piazza beat on career length (ha) and was probably equally dominant, or close to it anyway.
   16. Tiboreau Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:34 PM (#3063244)
If Piazza spent his entire career with BKN/LAD, instead of two-fifths, I'd put him ahead of everyone. Piazza ahead of Koufax for just LA? Piazza did have a great peak with LA and BP's WARP isn't the biggest fan of Koufax, but I'm not sure I agree with their numbers on that and Koufax did have the postseason success on 3 WS winners as well as the 4 no-hitters. So, yeah, you're right: Koufax wins. I didn't think about Piazza when making the list, though.
   17. Santanaland Diaries Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:41 PM (#3063253)
Here's a related question: how many teams currently have players who are a decent bet to surpass the player at the top?

Hanley Ramirez will almost certainly pass Cabrera if he's not traded away early. Halladay seems a good bet to pass Steib if he stays with the Jays. Anyone else?

I was going to say one of Arizon'a position players had a chance, then I looked again at what Johnson did with Arizona. Wow.
   18. Athletic Supporter wants to move your money around Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:48 PM (#3063268)
Hanley Ramirez will almost certainly pass Cabrera if he's not traded away early. Halladay seems a good bet to pass Steib if he stays with the Jays. Anyone else?

You forgot Pedroia!
   19. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:49 PM (#3063269)
how many teams currently have players who are a decent bet to surpass the player at the top?


Tampa Bay likely has several - it's probably a good bet that at least one of Kazmir, Shields, Upton, Longoria, or Price will have a better career than Crawford (probably much better).

What's interesting is that the active player who I think has clearly provided the most value to his present team and is still in his prime - Albert Pujols - probably has relatively little chance to be the best St. Louis Cardinal ever just because Stan Musial was so damn good for so damn long.
   20. BDC Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:49 PM (#3063270)
I am mildly surprised that Robinson, with just ten years in Brooklyn, would lead that franchise, given that it's so old and so successful. But it's a plausible choice. Roy Campanella might figure in that mix as well.
   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:50 PM (#3063273)
Stan the Man Musial is one of the greatest ever, but I'd say Pujols has at least a chance of surpassing him.

Lots of Rays could surpass Carl Crawford. Evan Longoria and BJ Upton are your most likely candidates.
   22. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:53 PM (#3063279)
Here's a related question: how many teams currently have players who are a decent bet to surpass the player at the top?
I suppose Ryan Zimmerman has an outside shot at taking over the MON/WAS spot from Raines, if we're only counting years with the team. Raines was great in Montreal but it was "only" ten years, and if Zimmerman really starts to hit--he's only 24--he could be a strong-hitting third baseman for 20 something years.

David Wright would have to be really, really great to surpass Seaver, but it's not entirely out of the range of possibility. And A-Rod might end up as the greatest non-Ruth Yankee of all-time, but no one is passing the Babe.
   23. Tiboreau Posted: January 29, 2009 at 03:55 PM (#3063282)
Can Vlad continue to produce well for the next six, seven years? Can King Felix avoid injury and gain the command of his fastball to achieve his potential? Was '08 the beginning of a long, brilliant career for Josh Hamilton or will the past come back to haunt him? It would seem Evan Longoria would have a good chance to surpass his teammate. How about David Wright?

Of course, any of these guys could go on to have HoF careers yet never make the list because they've gone on to other ballclubs.
   24. Davo's Favorite Tacos Are Moose Tacos Posted: January 29, 2009 at 04:32 PM (#3063321)
I am mildly surprised that Robinson, with just ten years in Brooklyn, would lead that franchise, given that it's so old and so successful.
I think Zack Wheat warrants some consideration. Possibly Dazzy Vance.
   25. Obama Bomaye Posted: January 29, 2009 at 04:44 PM (#3063331)
Can Vlad continue to produce well for the next six, seven years?

No.
   26. Snowboy Posted: January 29, 2009 at 06:12 PM (#3063420)
For Toronto, I think it is Carlos Delgado. 6000PA is the franchise leader; also alltime leader in homers, doubles, OPS, RBI, walks, etc. .282BA is not bad, 2nd in career OBP, leader in SLG. 2nd with OPS+ 142. Only 2 AS appearances, but let's face it he was never going to get in by vote (due to limited media coverage, a crowded position, and his own quiet personality never attracted legions of fanatics), so he had to wait to manager selection. Never won the MVP, but finished high in voting a couple of times.

I don't mean to take away from Steib, who was a tremendous Jay. Was a winner when they were bad, and a leader during their first good phase, and a workhorse throughout. He is the franchise leader in many categories, but not to the degree that Delgado distances himself.
   27. DCW3 Posted: January 29, 2009 at 07:35 PM (#3063482)
Nah, I think it's got to be Stieb. Stieb had a reasonable argument for winning four straight Cy Youngs from 1982 to 1985, and was probably one of the league's ten best players each of those years. Delgado never had a run of dominance like that--really, he only had two superstar-level years in a Toronto uniform. Not that they're the ultimate authority on these matters, but the Hall of Merit elected Stieb (who spent essentially his entire career with Toronto), and, though I may be wrong, I don't expect them to give a lot of attention to Delgado (even with one monster season with Florida and two pretty good ones with the Mets to add to his case).
   28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 29, 2009 at 08:26 PM (#3063536)
Mariners sign DH Mike Sweeney to a minor league deal.

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