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Friday, October 19, 2012

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 10-19-2012

Toledo News-Bee, October 19, 1912:

There is a well defined rumor that Horace Fogel, president of the Philadelphia National league team, will step down and out within the next day or two and sell his stock to local capitalists. It is said that the American league has declared that it will sever all relations with the National league unless it severely disciplines Fogel.

Fogel, as you may recall, accused the National League umpires of handing New York the 1912 pennant.

Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 06:16 AM | 19 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history, horace fogel

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 06:25 AM (#4276390)
Happy birthday, Fred Snodgrass! Anything interesting happen lately?

Pretty good pitching staff on today's Birthday Team...a Hall of Famer and a Cy Young Award winner.

C/Manager: Bob O'Farrell
1B: Randy Ruiz
2B: Sandy Alomar Sr.
3B: Jose Bautista
SS: Michael Young
LF: Rajai Davis
CF: Fred Snodgrass
RF: Tom McCreery

SP: Mordecai Brown
SP: Tim Belcher
SP: Al Brazle
SP: Mark Davis
SP: James McDonald
RP: Keith Foulke
   2. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: October 19, 2012 at 09:11 AM (#4276436)
I was reading an article by Alex Speier about the Red Sox signing Lester before he gets to free agency. To support the wisdom of doing that with players he wrote about how Theo signed Buccholz, Lester, and Beckett to pre-FA deals that all worked out. He didn't mention Pedroia or Youk, but those also worked out for the most part. What are some of the worst pre-FA deals for teams? The Jays had a couple, didn't they? And the Twins? What are the best for management?
   3. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: October 19, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4276523)
Dan,thanks again for the birthday lineups; they are a lot of fun. I like seeing a new name and finding interesting careers. Al Brazle caught my eye today. Lots of interesting stuff:
1. Didn't hit the majors until he was almost 30. His minor league career looked mostly meh-ish but maybe he was the proverbial late blooming lefty. He got to the St. Louis org in 1940, maybe he was a victim of numbers in Rickey's farm system.
2. Came up in '43 and then went to war for two years. Came out and was a spot starter who morphed more and more to relief before ending his career at age 40 (oldest player that year).
3. Had a very nice 120 ERA+ for his career. Only dipped below 100 his last year.
4. Only a 1.13 K/BB ratio and 9.1 H/9, yet had that nice ERA+.
5. First name is Alpha!

Question: any idea how to pronounce his last name? BRAY-zul? BRA-zell?
   4. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4276576)
He didn't mention Pedroia or Youk, but those also worked out for the most part. What are some of the worst pre-FA deals for teams?

Dontrelle Willis leaps to mind. Also the superstar tandem whose injuries torpedoed the Indians for five years, Sizemore and Hafner.
   5. JJ1986 Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4276579)
Eric Hinske was one of the first examples.
   6. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4276585)
What are some of the worst pre-FA deals for teams?


The Royals gave Angel Berroa a four year $11 million deal after he won ROY and he sucked after that.

The Adam Lind deal looks pretty bad right now.

Scott Kazmir was quite terrible after signing an extension.

Does Joe Mauer count?
   7. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 19, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4276586)
Two years ago the Reds locked up Jay Bruce through 2016 for $51 million. This spring they locked up Brandon Phillips for $72.5 million through 2017. These guys seem to be performing as the team had hoped, but in combination with the Votto contract and their various pitchers becoming arbitration-eligible, this team could be suffering from Phillies syndrome in a couple years.

I guess they did dodge a bullet by not locking up Drew Stubbs.
   8. BDC Posted: October 19, 2012 at 01:29 PM (#4276653)
The AAV of Derek Holland's contract (5/28.5) is completely unremarkable, and this year he was a league-average starting pitcher for the "mere" million dollars the Rangers paid him. But it's steeply "backloaded," and we may have to remind ourselves of 2012 when he gets $10M in 2016 …
   9. KJOK Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4276677)
I think it's BRA-zell but can't say for certain.

   10. kthejoker Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:23 PM (#4276687)
If it's like my friend from college, it rhymes with "dazzle."
   11. just plain joe Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4276696)
If it's like my friend from college, it rhymes with "dazzle."


I'm fairly certain that is how Alpha pronounced it as well. I have a vague memory of hearing it pronounced that way during some baseball broadcast in the distant past.
   12. esseff Posted: October 19, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4276708)
Musial, in his "autobiography," describes Al Brazle:

Old Alfie was a terrific relief pitcher because he was a lefthander with good control and a great natural sinker that dipped better the more often he worked and the more tired he became. He didn't have much of a curve, but somehow his knee action when he sidearmed lefthanded hitters seemed to drive some pretty good ones crazy, including Dixie Walker and Tommy Holmes. Earl Torgeson, too. Brazle was a loosey-goosey guy with a durable arm, but he couldn't field.

   13. Mike Emeigh Posted: October 19, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4276736)
He didn't have much of a curve, but somehow his knee action when he sidearmed lefthanded hitters seemed to drive some pretty good ones crazy, including Dixie Walker and Tommy Holmes. Earl Torgeson, too.


B-R has play data only from 1948-1954. Tommy Holmes did OK against him (.321/.367/.321 in 30 PAs, granting all the hits were singles). Torgeson did have a hard time (.182/.250/.295). Dixie Walker isn't showing up in the PI, probably because there are many missing Cardinal and Pirate games from the Retrosheet DB for that period.

-- MWE
   14. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 19, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4276755)
I'm looking at his AP obit, from 1973, and it's amazing how much stuff they got wrong:

"Mr. Brazle, a lefthander who was known as "Cotton", spent his entire 22 year professional baseball career in the organization of the St. Louis Cardinals, and had a lifetime National League record of 133 victories and 92 losses...His first year in the major leagues was 1940. After service in the Army he rejoined the Cardinals in 1943 and stayed until 1953. His best year was 1948, when he compiled a 20-8 record."

1. Brazle was signed by the Red Sox in 1936, and pitched for their minor league teams until being traded to the Cards in September 1940.
2. His first pro season was 1936; his last (in the PCL) was 1955. That's not 22 seasons.
3. His lifetime NL (and ML) record was 97-64.
4. He made his major league debut in 1943.
5. He didn't join the Army after the 1940 season. He pitched in the minor leagues in 1941 and 1942, not joining the Army until the 1943 season was over.
6. He spent the 1944 and 1945 seasons in the military, rejoining the Cards for the 1946 season.
7. His last year with the Cardinals was 1954.
8. He had a record of 10-6 in 1948. His career high in games won was 14.

They also got his age at the time of death wrong. He was 60, not 59.

Aside from that, it's a fine article.
   15. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 19, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4276760)
I guess people were just making #### up long before the internet.
   16. Sweatpants Posted: October 19, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4276791)
They merely confused his stats with those of long-time teammate Harry Brecheen, although they still got a few details wrong (Brecheen was 20-7 in 1948, for one).
   17. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 20, 2012 at 03:20 AM (#4277285)
They merely confused his stats with those of long-time teammate Harry Brecheen, although they still got a few details wrong (Brecheen was 20-7 in 1948, for one).


Ah, that explains it. Thanks.
   18. puck Posted: October 20, 2012 at 01:06 PM (#4277437)
He didn't mention Pedroia or Youk, but those also worked out for the most part. What are some of the worst pre-FA deals for teams?

Tulowitzki's 2nd pre-arb extension raised quite a few eyebrows, and they've not relaxed much with him missing 2/3 of the season.

I think the only such deal that hasn't worked out for the Rockies so far was a much smaller deal ($8-10 million guaranteed, I think) for reliever Manny Corpas, who struggled and also dealt with a series of injuries.

Well, and Brad Hawpe's, if he really was as bad a fielder as the numbers suggest.
   19. Danny Posted: October 20, 2012 at 04:34 PM (#4277559)
A's trade Cliff Pennington and Yordy Cabrera to the D-Backs for Chris Young and cash.

D-Backs trade Cabrera to the Marlins for Heath Bell and cash.

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