Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, October 21, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 10-21-2019

Memphis News Scimitar, October 21, 1919:

The Reds are the baseball champions of the world and Kid Gleason manager of the White Sox, is the champion poor loser of the universe.

When the Reds decisively defeated the Sox, did Gleason come out and give them the credit which was their due? Did he admit that they were a great ball club and that the fine work of Pat Moran was bound to tell in the big clash? He did not.

Gleason said that the breaks all went against his team and that he still believed the Sox the stronger machine.

Elsewhere on the same page...

How do you account for the showing made by the Sox in the world’s series? President Comiskey was asked.

“I cannot account for it,” he replied. “They were a terrible disappointment to me.”
...
“We need several new pitchers,” said President Comiskey. “Effective right-handers, young men who are coming up in the game, is what we need. Wilkinson looks like a fine prospect and will probably be a good pitcher for us. Dick Kerr is a wonderful little twirler and ought to be much better.”

Maybe it’s because I know how all this turns out, but it’s remarkable how much Comiskey and Gleason are talking about how upset they are with their players. It’s almost like they knew exactly what had happened.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: October 21, 2019 at 09:56 AM | 29 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: black sox, dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: October 21, 2019 at 09:58 AM (#5892457)
A nice pitching staff on today's Birthday Team. Whitey Ford is one of the better #2 starters in the Birthday League.

C: Toby Hall (4.7 WAR)
1B: Franklin Stubbs (2.7 WAR)
2B/Manager: Bill Russell (31.3 WAR)
3B: Johnny Goryl (1.6 WAR)
SS: Khalil Greene (8.5 WAR)
LF: George Bell (20.0 WAR)
CF: Ted Uhlaender (2.8 WAR)
RF: Gabe Gross (4.6 WAR)

SP: Zack Greinke (71.7 WAR)
SP: Whitey Ford (56.9 WAR)
SP: Non-Spaceman Bill Lee (31.7 WAR)
SP: Bill Bevens (4.6 WAR)
SP: Frank Papish (4.5 WAR)
RP: Jerry Garvin (7.2 WAR)

Umpire: Vic Delmore
Fun names: Tim Spooneybarger, Juan Tyrone Eichelberger, Jon Coutlangus, Finners Quinlan
   2. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 21, 2019 at 10:30 AM (#5892466)
Memphis News Scimitar
How awesome is this for a newspaper name? "We don't just bring you the news. We bring you a NEWS SCIMITAR!"
   3. Nasty Nate Posted: October 21, 2019 at 10:33 AM (#5892467)
It has been a weird career path for minor leaguer Julian Fernandez - see this MLBtraderumors article.

The Miami Marlins have returned right-handed pitcher Julian Fernandez, who was selected in the Rule 5 Draft, to the Colorado Rockies, according to the Rockies’ official Twitter account.

Fernandez was originally selected by the Giants in the 2017 Rule 5 Draft, but was unable to pitch in the following season after suffering an elbow injury that required Tommy John surgery. In the 2018-2019 offseason, he was claimed off waivers by the Marlins. After suffering a setback in his recovery from surgery, he was again unable to pitch for the entire year.
According to the article, he has accrued 2 years of service time despite never having pitched above A-ball, and having thrown zero innings in professional baseball in the last 2 years.
   4. RJ in TO Posted: October 21, 2019 at 10:45 AM (#5892469)
Who are the pitchers with careers of significant length who (allegedly) benefited the most from their defenses? Whitey Ford was at +0.25 RA9Def over the roughly 3200 IP in his career, while Jim Palmer was at +0.33 over the roughly 4000 IP in his career. Are there any who benefited more than that?
   5. RJ in TO Posted: October 21, 2019 at 10:48 AM (#5892471)
In comparison, is there any long career pitcher who suffered worse than Phil Niekro at the (stone) hands of his defense? He was at -0.18 for his 5400 IP career, and from 1975 to 1979, his defense apparently cost him more than half a run (actually -0.54) for every 9 IP, which is just abysmal.
   6. eric Posted: October 21, 2019 at 10:50 AM (#5892474)
Just out of curiosity, how much of that "bad defense" was passed balls?
   7. Itchy Row Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:27 AM (#5892489)
Dave McNally had a +0.42 RA9Def in 2730 innings.
   8. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5892491)
Who are the pitchers with careers of significant length who (allegedly) benefited the most from their defenses? Whitey Ford was at +0.25 RA9Def over the roughly 3200 IP in his career, while Jim Palmer was at +0.33 over the roughly 4000 IP in his career. Are there any who benefited more than that?


Three Finger Brown was at .34 in his years with the Cubs, but his FL teammates dragged that all the way down to .21.
   9. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:34 AM (#5892494)
Dave McNally had a +0.42 RA9Def in 2730 innings.


yeah. Pitchers in the sweet spot of the O's and Cubs historic defenses all show up big. Carl Lundgren is .35, Jack Pfiester .39.
   10. RJ in TO Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:39 AM (#5892498)
Just out of curiosity, how much of that "bad defense" was passed balls?
I have no idea, and don't have a good way to easily figure that out. Using total runs, the catchers for the 1975 to 1979 period for the Braves were at -16, -19, -21, -20, and -16, which isn't good. However, the teams as a whole were at -85, -97, -138 (!), -55, and -86, so it's not like it's only the catchers dragging the numbers down. I'm also not sure how passed balls are applied - whether they're lumped in with wild pitches, or treated separately, and whether they're applied against the catcher, the pitcher, or a mix of both.
   11. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5892506)
-138 (!)


Ah, the '77 Braves, featuring quite possibly inning for inning, the worst player in MLB history. Pat Rockett.. -5.5 WAR for his career of 459 PA, and -38 fielding runs 1083 innings, about 120 games worth. In 1977, he had -24 in 82 games.
   12. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5892531)
It’s almost like they knew exactly what had happened.


Serious question: did they? It sounds like the kind of secret that's hard to keep.
   13. Itchy Row Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:48 PM (#5892540)
The 1974 Braves had the best RA9def and Rtot in the majors (+0.41 and 67) and the next year they were the worst in the majors at -0.54 and -85. Niekro's RA9def went from +0.38 to -0.51 those two years.
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: October 21, 2019 at 01:16 PM (#5892554)
Rich Reuschel was at -0.18 for his career, highlighted (lowlighted) by a -0.34 during his years with the Cubs. And there were no passed ball concerns clouding things. That was all the ineptness of the 1970s Cubs D at work.
   15. Itchy Row Posted: October 21, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5892570)
Mariano Rivera was at -0.16. That's too bad. With a good defense, he could have been good.

In 2005, he had a 1.38 ERA (but a 2.07 RA) and a -0.55 RA9def.
   16. RJ in TO Posted: October 21, 2019 at 02:17 PM (#5892578)
By total runs, the 2005 Yankees were largely free of terrible defenders, with A-Rod and Matsui both putting up team worst totals of -11 runs. That's not great, but it's also not "Ow, my ####### eyes" bad. Instead, they just had a bunch of guys who were all slightly below average.

By Defensive Runs Saved, however, they had five guys in the "Should be a DH" category - Jeter, Bernie, Cano, Womack, and Sheffield. Looking at that list, I can certainly believe they were something of a defensive nightmare.
   17. Hank Gillette Posted: October 21, 2019 at 03:59 PM (#5892602)
SP: Whitey Ford (56.9 WAR)


Ford doesn’t seem to have been an all-time great by WAR (54.9 fWAR). How was it that he was considered a no-doubt Hall of Famer? I guess pitching in all those World Series helped.

He had only 3.7 WAR in his 1961 Cy Young winning year (he did have 25 wins).
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 21, 2019 at 04:18 PM (#5892609)

Ford doesn’t seem to have been an all-time great by WAR (54.9 fWAR). How was it that he was considered a no-doubt Hall of Famer? I guess pitching in all those World Series helped.

He had only 3.7 WAR in his 1961 Cy Young winning year (he did have 25 wins).


He lost 2 years to military service, and a bunch of starts to Casey Stengel's weird pitching patterns. Ford only averaged 28 GS per season under Stengel, vs. 37 after Stengel.

He also has the highest W% in the HoF, a 2.71 World Series ERA (in 146 IP), and holds the record for consecutive scoreless WS innings.
   19. The Run Fairy Posted: October 21, 2019 at 04:31 PM (#5892613)
Ford doesn’t seem to have been an all-time great by WAR (54.9 fWAR). How was it that he was considered a no-doubt Hall of Famer? I guess pitching in all those World Series helped.


He had a lot of old-school shininess to his numbers. His Hall Monitor score is 208, which put him somewhere around 13th all-time when he retired. When he retired, he had (according to his SABR bio) the lowest ERA of any starting pitcher after 1920, and his win percentage (as snapper said) is the best. Plus he has his six rings and a World Series MVP.

Despite all that, he still didn't make it on his first ballot and snuck in by 10 votes on his second ballot (77.8%). That's fine but I don't think that's how a no-doubt HoF pitcher gets into the Hall.
   20. RJ in TO Posted: October 21, 2019 at 04:38 PM (#5892618)
Ford doesn’t seem to have been an all-time great by WAR (54.9 fWAR). How was it that he was considered a no-doubt Hall of Famer? I guess pitching in all those World Series helped.
Career W/L of 236-106, career ERA of 2.75, Yankee Legend, and the associated playoff goodness. Also, WAR didn't exist back then, so no one looked at it.

Basically, if you give me no other information than that W/L and ERA, I'm going to be pretty damn confident that person was definitely a Hall of Fame caliber pitcher.
   21. The Mighty Quintana Posted: October 21, 2019 at 06:31 PM (#5892655)
Didn't Casey save him for the big dogs? I believe he started most of his games each year against the top division clubs.

That would tend to increase his value. Not sure if any of the advanced metrics factor strength of schedule into the numbers.
   22. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 21, 2019 at 07:00 PM (#5892659)
Despite all that, he still didn't make it on his first ballot and snuck in by 10 votes on his second ballot (77.8%). That's fine but I don't think that's how a no-doubt HoF pitcher gets into the Hall.


Roy Campanella and Eddie Mathews took 5 ballots. Yogi Berra took 2. It's just how things went back then.
   23. The Mighty Quintana Posted: October 21, 2019 at 07:31 PM (#5892660)
https://homemlb.wordpress.com/2014/01/24/who-is-right-about-whitey-ford/

I guess it was more nuanced with Whitey - while Casey saved him for the good teams (Cle and Chi), he also avoided pitching him in Tiger Stadium and Fenway.
   24. The Run Fairy Posted: October 21, 2019 at 08:05 PM (#5892664)
Roy Campanella and Eddie Mathews took 5 ballots. Yogi Berra took 2. It's just how things went back then.


Oh I know, there were all sorts of weird ballot results back then (and now). But by comparison, Ford first appeared on the ballot in 1973. That was also Warren Spahn's first year, and Spahn sailed in with 83% of the vote. The year before that, Koufax got 86.9% of the vote on his first year. Some pitchers were getting in on the first ballot, but not Ford.
   25. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: October 21, 2019 at 09:01 PM (#5892673)
When he retired, he had (according to his SABR bio) the lowest ERA of any starting pitcher after 1920

Still does, among retired SPs. Only Kershaw (2.44) and deGrom (2.62) are lower.
   26. Rennie's Tenet Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:26 PM (#5892693)
Was there some talk at the time that some Ford voters held off in '73 so that he could go in with Mantle in '74?
   27. My name is RMc and I feel extremely affected Posted: October 22, 2019 at 07:48 AM (#5892709)
Ah, the '77 Braves, featuring quite possibly inning for inning, the worst player in MLB history: Pat Rockett. -5.5 WAR for his career of 459 PA, and -38 fielding runs 1083 innings, about 120 games worth. In 1977, he had -24 in 82 games.


And the sad thing was, he was easily the Braves best option at SS that year, beating out Jerry Royster (.216), Darell Chaney (.201) and Craig Robinson (.207). Yikes. (That was also the year Ted Turner managed one game. Double yikes.)

Actually, I like to think of the Braves in the 1970s as the "Rowland Office years". This guy, who couldn't hit or field (and had 30 CS to go with 27 SB), somehow had a major league run him out to center field, day after day...for six years. Damn.
   28. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 22, 2019 at 09:43 AM (#5892726)
Despite all that, he still didn't make it on his first ballot and snuck in by 10 votes on his second ballot (77.8%). That's fine but I don't think that's how a no-doubt HoF pitcher gets into the Hall.


This was a bit of a fiddle, I think: IIRC, the NY writers down-balloted him the first year so he & Mickey Mantle could go in together the next year.

EDIT: Or...y'know...what Rennie said.
   29. SandyRiver Posted: October 22, 2019 at 10:42 AM (#5892757)
Looking just at IP and WAR (BBRef version), Ford's seems a bit low. The numbers below show pitchers with ERA+ of 131-135, excluding those prior to 1900 (Noodles Hahn was a rookie in 1899, and is included) and those who were primarily relievers.
From left to right: Name, ERA+, IP, WAR, IP/WAR

Alexander 135 5190.0 115.9 44.8
Big Unit 135 4135.1 103.5 40.0
Waddell 135 2961.1 60.4 49.0
C. Kluber 134 1341.2 33.2 40.4
Brecheen 133 1907.2 41.3 46.2
Ford 133 3170.1 53.5 59.3
Spud Chandler 132 1485.0 22.9 64.8
Noodles Hahn 132 2029.1 45.4 44.7
Maddux 132 5008.1 104.8 47.8
Scherzer 132 2290.0 58.7 39.0
Dizzy Dean 131 1967.1 43.7 45.0
Halladay 131 2749.1 65.4 42.0
Koufax 131 2324.1 53.1 43.8

Two of those ratios stand out from the rest. Has it something to do with being a career Yankee? (jk, and Yankees' fielding was usually good.)
Sorry about the crummy formatting - did not look like that as I typed it.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Martin Hemner
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogWhite Sox Sign Yasmani Grandal
(21 - 8:52am, Nov 22)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogIs MLB Ready for Robo-Umps and an Automated Strike Zone?
(14 - 8:46am, Nov 22)
Last: Greg Pope

NewsblogColorado School of Mines Talk – Bauer Outage
(24 - 8:42am, Nov 22)
Last: Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB)

NewsblogRob Manfred’s plan to destroy minor league baseball
(137 - 7:32am, Nov 22)
Last: McCoy

NewsblogRyan Thibs’ Hall of Fame Tracker
(159 - 6:10am, Nov 22)
Last: TJ

NewsblogOT - NBA Thread, Start of the 2019-2020 Season
(987 - 11:27pm, Nov 21)
Last: aberg

NewsblogOT - November* 2019 College Football thread
(329 - 11:26pm, Nov 21)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogPosnanski: Baseball 100 Rules
(319 - 10:43pm, Nov 21)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogGerardo Parra Signs With Japan’s Yomiuri Giants
(35 - 8:36pm, Nov 21)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-21-2019
(21 - 8:26pm, Nov 21)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

NewsblogMLB isn’t confident it can produce a consistent ball, leaving GMs to adapt
(21 - 8:13pm, Nov 21)
Last: Zach

NewsblogOT- Soccer Thread- October 2019
(532 - 7:46pm, Nov 21)
Last: frannyzoo

NewsblogWhitewash: Rob Manfred says he doesn’t think sign stealing extends beyond the Astros
(76 - 7:37pm, Nov 21)
Last: Zach

NewsblogStark: Five things to watch on the 2020 Hall of Fame ballot – The Athletic
(1 - 6:19pm, Nov 21)
Last: ajnrules

Hall of Merit2020 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(240 - 3:29pm, Nov 21)
Last: Mike Webber

Page rendered in 0.4400 seconds
46 querie(s) executed