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Tuesday, October 09, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 10-9-2018

Washington Herald, October 9, 1918:

Capt. Christy Mathewson of the Chemical Warfare Service, U.S.A., has arrived in France, according to authentic information from private sources and has been sent to a training school for instructors.

It has been said and written that Capt. Mathewson and other ball players from here who joined the colors later than others will meet with cool receptions by the boys who have been on the firing line.
...
Surely, Capt. Mathewson ought not to be criticized. As soon as he could make arrangements he did not hesitate to go “over there,” and he has selected a branch of the service that is considered one of the most dangerous that he could have picked out.

Yep. Sigh.

Also in the news 100 years ago, the owners are trying to figure out what the heck to do about the reserve clause. Teams were obligated to mail contracts to players no later than February 1 for delivery no later than March 1, but you can’t exactly expect a guy to deal with contract issues while he’s in a trench in the Argonne Forest with bullets whizzing past his head.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: October 09, 2018 at 10:15 AM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: christy mathewson, dugout, history, world war i

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: October 09, 2018 at 10:22 AM (#5763031)
A good Birthday Team today. Even the worst player, Hershberger, is pretty decent. (Bonus points to Hershberger for having grown up about five miles from where I grew up, albeit 35 years earlier.)

C: Brian Downing (51.52 WAR)
1B: Joe Pepitone (9.74 WAR)
2B: Brian Roberts (30.37 WAR)
3B: Joe Sewell (53.72 WAR)
SS: Freddie Patek (24.06 WAR)
LF: Starling Marte (26.17 WAR)
CF: Jimmy Welsh (7.63 WAR)
RF: Mike Hershberger (2.34 WAR)

SP: Rube Marquard (32.09 WAR)
SP: Mickey Haefner (17.43 WAR)
SP: Al Maul (14.65 WAR)
SP: Derek Holland (10.14 WAR)
SP: Bob Moose (7.43 WAR)
RP: Jing Johnson (6.38 WAR)

Generation K member: Bill Pulsipher (0.51 WAR)
Good hitter for a pitcher, bad pitcher for a pitcher: Randy Lerch (-2.13 WAR)
Manager: Dave Rowe
Mascot: Charlie Faust (0.06 WAR)
Not that one: Mark McLemore
Not that one: Pete Wilson
Owners: Walter O'Malley, Jerry McMorris
Umpires: Steve Palermo, Gary Darling
   2. Man o' Schwar Posted: October 09, 2018 at 10:59 AM (#5763074)
Pitchers in the same general WAR area as the HoFer Marquard include Larry Dierker, Tim Wakefield, John Tudor, Charlie Liebrandt, Tom Gordon, and Bruce Hurst.

Also Jesse Haines, who got in by the VC the year before Marquard.
   3. Batman Posted: October 09, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5763095)
I thought I remembered Bob Moose pitching into the 80's, but maybe I was thinking of Bob McClure. Moose died in 1976, on his 29th birthday, in a car accident on the way to a party at Bill Mazeroski's golf course.
   4. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 09, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5763202)
Mascot: Charlie Faust (0.06 WAR)


I'm assuming that Faust's positive WAR comes from the (intentional) HBP in his only PA and the two uncontested stolen bases?
   5. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 09, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5763206)
Wow - here's an amazing trick. Click on the link to Faust's BBRef page and look at the picture. Then look at the bio information and see that he only lived to age 34, and that he was probably around 21 when that picture was taken. Those two bits of data seem incongruous, to say the least.
   6. BDC Posted: October 09, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5763217)
Via Cracked.com, I was reading a little today about Elizabeth Swaney, the freestyle skier who made it to the Olympics despite not really being able to do freestyle skiing. This reminded me in turn of Ryne Stanek. Why? Stanek finished 2018 tied for 17th in the majors in starts (22 of them) with Game Scores of 50 or above. Which is not actually a leaderboard anybody keeps, but you can search for it easily enough.

Stanek had more Game Scores of 50 or above this year than David Price, Clayton Kershaw, Noah Syndergaard, Carlos Carrasco, Jon Lester, Dallas Keuchel, etc. etc. Which, like Swaney's "success," is an artifact of how the event or stat is measured. She realized that if she just managed not to fall down, she would get neutral-enough scores to finish ahead of some other skiers in qualifying events. Stanek wasn't trying to do anything like that and likely still doesn't even know that he did this obscure thing, but there too, the once-ingenious system of starting a Game Score in the middle of the range and proceeding up or down ultimately meant that an opener who left before incurring too much damage could rack up a lot of them.
   7. PreservedFish Posted: October 09, 2018 at 01:34 PM (#5763219)
Faust's deal with the devil must have been rather the opposite of everyone else's.
   8. I Am Not a Number Posted: October 09, 2018 at 01:36 PM (#5763221)
he was probably around 21 when that picture was taken

He debuted at age 31, so maybe that's when the photo was taken? Even still, his weather-beaten look could have him pass for 50 these days.
   9. Batman Posted: October 09, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5763228)
Birthday boy Rube Marquard was 33-2 while Faust was around.
   10. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 09, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5763229)
As I suspect most of you know, Birthday Team third baseman and Hall-of-Famer Joe Sewell famously almost never struck out. In fact, in 8,333 career plate appearances, Sewell struck out 114 times. According to BB-Ref's Play Index, 104 players struck out more than 114 times in the 2018 season alone!
   11. Batman Posted: October 09, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5763237)
Miguel Sano had 299 PA this year and struck out more than Sewell did in his whole career.
   12. Ziggy's screen name Posted: October 09, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5763255)
Faust is good and all, but I really want Amon Duul as my team's mascot.
   13. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: October 09, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5763302)
There is no mascot, only Duul.
   14. Rennie's Tenet Posted: October 09, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5763328)
Memory is strange: I remember very clearly Joe Pepitone joining the Cubs, hitting a ball down the right field line against the Pirates, chugging into second with a standup double, only to find the Pirate second baseman standing there with the ball because Clemente had cut it off and thrown to second without Pepitone realizng it. I remember the announcers saying some like "Welcome to the National League, Joe." Didn't remember at all that Pepitone went from the Yankees to the Astros first, not directly to the Cubs. Doesn't look like Clemente ever threw out Pepitone in the three years they were in the league together. The Pirates would usually televise one or two spring training games a year - maybe it happened then?
   15. dlf Posted: October 09, 2018 at 03:46 PM (#5763348)
Doing this from memory, but wasn't Marquard one of the guys featured in that marvelous oral history "Glory of the Times" right before his HOF election?

I remember nothing about Bob Moose other than an off-hand comment by Bob Veale, when he was a minor league pitching coach for the Utica Blue Sox in Roger Kahn's "Good Enough to Dream." Veale said that he, Moose and another pitcher (John Lamb?) were the all kosher staff.
   16. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 09, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5763355)
Doing this from memory, but wasn't Marquard one of the guys featured in that marvelous oral history "Glory of the Times" right before his HOF election?


Yes, the book came out in 1966, and Marquard was elected in 1971.
   17. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 09, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5763356)
that marvelous oral history "Glory of the Times"
Subtitle: "Old Men Completely Making Sh*t Up." It's a work of total oral fiction.
   18. Rennie's Tenet Posted: October 09, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5763437)
Irregardless of his veraciousness, Marquard's story of his entry into pro baseball is wonderful.

Moose threw a no hitter, I think in 1969 at age 21.
   19. Perry Posted: October 09, 2018 at 05:49 PM (#5763470)
The Pirates would usually televise one or two spring training games a year - maybe it happened then?


Cubs trained in AZ in the 1970s, Pirates in FL.
   20. Perry Posted: October 09, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5763472)
Moose threw a no hitter, I think in 1969 at age 21.


And threw the walkoff wild pitch to Hal McRae that gave the Reds the 1972 pennant, after they entered the 9th inning of the deciding game 5 trailing 3-2.
   21. Perry Posted: October 09, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5763474)
Subtitle: "Old Men Completely Making Sh*t Up." It's a work of total oral fiction.


More like Old Men Doing Their Best to Remember Things That Happened 60+ Years Ago. I don't think they were trying to deceive anyone or embellish, except Marquard, who made up a lot of the stuff about his personal life.
   22. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 09, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5763481)
I don't think they were trying to deceive anyone or embellish,
I disagree - from what I remember, the nature of many/most the stories was so self-mythologizing (or friend- or teammate-mythologizing), that clearly the intent was to embellish if not entirely fabricate. Whether that was by the former players or the author, or both, who knows?
   23. Rennie's Tenet Posted: October 09, 2018 at 06:15 PM (#5763482)
And threw the walkoff wild pitch to Hal McRae that gave the Reds the 1972 pennant, after they entered the 9th inning of the deciding game 5 trailing 3-2


It was a late afternoon game, so the ending flowed right into the local news in Pittsburgh. The sports guy led off with a recap of the game, looked right into the camera, shook his head and said, "It was a s****y way to lose."
   24. Perry Posted: October 09, 2018 at 06:34 PM (#5763492)
I disagree - from what I remember, the nature of many/most the stories was so self-mythologizing (or friend- or teammate-mythologizing), that clearly the intent was to embellish if not entirely fabricate. Whether that was by the former players or the author, or both, who knows?


Ritter was an academic, an NYU professor, so I think he TRIED to get it right, and I know in his intro he said that he spent several weeks on fact-checking and that to the extent he could check, the stories mostly held up. He added: "...in those instances where something had been added, the embellishments invariably were those of the artist: they served to dramatize a point, to emphasize a contrast, or to reveal a truth." So no, I wouldn't take it as straight history, but it's far from "total fiction."
   25. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 09, 2018 at 06:38 PM (#5763495)
I just saw a replay of the Sox/Yanks game last night and that netting all the fricking way down the 1st line is brutal. I wonder if there will be pushback against the netting but it seems like it's already set in stone, can't possibly have any lawsuits. Ugh. Can't they just make people sign a waiver?
   26. Perry Posted: October 09, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5763496)
It was a late afternoon game, so the ending flowed right into the local news in Pittsburgh. The sports guy led off with a recap of the game, looked right into the camera, shook his head and said, "It was a s****y way to lose."


By the way, that was a winner-take-all game of the NLCS, had 7 runs, 15 hits, featured 8 pitchers and 5 mid-inning pitching changes, 5 PH/PR, and was completed in 2:19.

   27. Perry Posted: October 09, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5763499)
I just saw a replay of the Sox/Yanks game last night and that netting all the fricking way down the 1st line is brutal. I wonder if there will be pushback against the netting but it seems like it's already set in stone, can't possibly have any lawsuits. Ugh. Can't they just make people sign a waiver?


I did look bad on TV, and I thought I would hate it, but I went to a bunch of games at Coors this year, sitting in all 3 levels behind the 1st/3rd base lines at various times, and honestly it never bothered me. And when I was sitting pretty low behind the dugout I actually liked having it there. I pay attention to every pitch but I still liked knowing I wasn't going to have a ball zipping at me at 100 mph. Count me a convert.
   28. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 09, 2018 at 07:30 PM (#5763511)
Ritter was an academic, an NYU professor, so I think he TRIED to get it right, and I know in his intro he said that he spent several weeks on fact-checking and that to the extent he could check, the stories mostly held up. He added: "...in those instances where something had been added, the embellishments invariably were those of the artist: they served to dramatize a point, to emphasize a contrast, or to reveal a truth." So no, I wouldn't take it as straight history, but it's far from "total fiction."


And this was before the MacMillan Baseball Encyclopedia came out, so there really wasn't any good one-stop reference to consult.
   29. vortex of dissipation Posted: October 09, 2018 at 07:37 PM (#5763515)
It was a late afternoon game, so the ending flowed right into the local news in Pittsburgh. The sports guy led off with a recap of the game, looked right into the camera, shook his head and said, "It was a s****y way to lose."


I was in high school at the time, and was a die-hard Reds fan. I still am. When I left school to go home (on the bus), I'd been listening to the game on the radio, and I knew that the Reds were losing - I'm not sure how late in the game it was, but it could have been the ninth inning. When I got home, my Mum was waiting for me at the door, and she told me they had won. One of the most joyous moments I've ever had...
   30. QLE Posted: October 09, 2018 at 08:24 PM (#5763553)
Ritter was an academic, an NYU professor, so I think he TRIED to get it right, and I know in his intro he said that he spent several weeks on fact-checking and that to the extent he could check, the stories mostly held up. He added: "...in those instances where something had been added, the embellishments invariably were those of the artist: they served to dramatize a point, to emphasize a contrast, or to reveal a truth." So no, I wouldn't take it as straight history, but it's far from "total fiction."


All of that said, there's a danger in suggesting that all issues concerning the accuracy of The Glory of Their Times are the products of those being interviewed- Rob Neyer has pointed out that a comparison of the contents of the book versus the sections of the original interviews that have been made available in audio form demonstrate that Ritter was far more active in terms of his work as an editor than he admitted in the introduction, including in ways where this amounted to substantial changes in what was said.
   31. AndrewJ Posted: October 09, 2018 at 08:25 PM (#5763555)
Maury Klein's recent history of the 1911 Giants, STEALING GAMES, points out that Marquard was perceived at the time as the team's top pitcher that season, not Matty. So Rube went 43-7 from 1911 till July 1912. Outside of that period, his career record was 158-170 with an ERA+ below 100. Frankly, I think Mel Stottlemyre, Vida Blue or Frank Tanana were more dominant...
   32. SandyRiver Posted: October 10, 2018 at 08:53 AM (#5763850)
Moose threw a no hitter, I think in 1969 at age 21.

Against the Miracle Mets, a momentary hitch in their incredible dash (something like 38-9) to extinguish the Cubbies' 9-ganme lead and reach the PS.
   33. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: October 10, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5763886)
This Bob Moose website is possibly the most comprehensive website I have ever seen about any baseball player short of Mickey Mantle. Holy heck. A real treasure trove of 70s pictures. Check out the one with Dave Giusti and Willie Stargell.

Here Bruce Markusen at the HOF website points out that Bob Moose is a perfect case study for the changes in grooming during the 70s from his rookie year (clean cut) to his final year (big frizzy hair, full beard).
   34. AndrewJ Posted: October 10, 2018 at 07:09 PM (#5764377)
And this was before the MacMillan Baseball Encyclopedia came out, so there really wasn't any good one-stop reference to consult.

According to THE NUMBERS GAME by Alan Schwarz, Macmillan gave the green light to put the 1969 Encyclopedia together because they'd had such success with Glory of their Times in 1966.

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