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Friday, November 16, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 11-16-2018

El Paso Herald, November 16, 1918:

KANSAS CITY MAY ENTER MAJOR BASEBALL FOR SEASON OF 1919

Baseball Experts Believe Packing Center Better Baseball City Than St. Louis, Where Two Major League Teams Divide Interest
...
Kansas City is said to be waiting to be struck by National league lightning. A story has been started to the effect that the franchise of the St. Louis Cardinals will be transferred to Kansas City and that Omaha will replace the Reef Town in the American association. There may be some truth in this, as Kansas City is a good baseball town; doubtless a better one than St. Louis, divided in allegiance between two major clubs.
...
The chief objection to a transfer of the St. Louis franchise to Kansas City would be the inconvenience and extra expense, generally, of having a member so far isolated from the present wheel. Economy is to be one of the keystones of reorganization. The added mileage resulting from the substitution of Kansas City would be anything but economy.

#BestFansIn1919Baseball

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:54 AM | 11 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:55 AM (#5788353)
Not a great Birthday Team today, but it's better than yesterday. This team might be better off with their ace starting pitcher in right field when he's not pitching.

C/Manager: Mike McGeary (10.9 WAR)
1B: Rollie Zeider (6.0 WAR)
2B: Frank Bolling (17.1 WAR)
3B: Julio Lugo (13.5 WAR)
SS: Ed Busch (1.6 WAR)
LF: Morrie Arnovich (7.5 WAR)
CF: Cristobal Torriente (0 WAR, Negro Leagues legend)
RF: Ab Wright (-0.7 WAR)

SP: Dwight Gooden (53.0 WAR)
SP: Paul Foytack (10.4 WAR)
SP: Clay Bryant (7.7 WAR)
SP: Bill McGee (8.1 WAR)
SP: Chris Haney (3.1 WAR)
RP: Jordan Walden (3.3 WAR)

Fun names: Joe Quest, Jake Munch, Blas Monaco, Cheslor Cuthbert
Not quite as successful as his father: Pete Rose Jr. (-0.3 WAR)
Pinch runner: Herb Washington (-0.5 WAR)
Pioneer: Glenn Burke (-2.4 WAR)
   2. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:13 AM (#5788361)
Cistulli leaves Fangraphs for the Jays.
   3. KJOK Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5788421)
The Cardinals were less popular than the Browns, and had a ballpark that was no longer fit to play in, so it wasn't a totally insane idea that they would move, although Kansas City would have been a long shot, given the additional travel expense the team would have had by being based so far west.
   4. caspian88 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5788430)
In 1920, Kansas City was less than half the size of St. Louis, and of course significantly further away from the rest of major league baseball than St. Louis already was.

Baltimore would have been a much better choice - just as large as St. Louis. Milwaukee wouldn't have been a terrible choice either.
   5. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 16, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5788436)
Kansas City by that time had previous teams in the Union Association, National League, American Association, and Federal League. Almost a cottage industry...
   6. Hysterical & Useless Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5788603)
But Kansas City had advantages in barbeque and crazy little women
   7. Hank Gillette Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:57 PM (#5788606)
In 1920, Kansas City was less than half the size of St. Louis, and of course significantly further away from the rest of major league baseball than St. Louis already was.

Baltimore would have been a much better choice - just as large as St. Louis.


Were MLB owners worried about territorial rights back then? The problem with Baltimore is that the minor leagues were still independent, and there was a very strong minor league franchise entrenched there. Only a few years earlier, they had a star pitcher named Rouse, Ruth, something like that. On the other hand, the Baltimore owner claimed that he was badly hurt the two years the Federal League had a franchise in Baltimore, so if MLB wanted to be ruthless, they probably could have put a team there.

It’s a good thing they didn’t try to put a team in Buffalo (11th largest U.S. city in 1920). Today, Buffalo’s population is barely half what it was then.
   8. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5788614)
I don't think they were all that concerned about territorial rights of minor league teams at this point. In mid-November 1918 Ban Johnson was in the process of trying to destroy the association of minor leagues, so it certainly seems like they'd have tried to steamroll Dunn in Baltimore if they wanted to.

Reading old newspapers, I get the impression that for the fans, there was less of a divide between minor league ball and major league ball at this point, particularly when you're talking about the American Association or PCL. There was probably some level of concern that they'd show up to Baltimore and the fans would stay loyal to their existing club.

With regard to Buffalo, there was also some talk circa 1916 of Toledo getting a big league team. It was a fast-growing city at that point, growing by 44% from 1910-1920, and by 1920 was about the size of Denver or Portland. It had grown by around 700% between 1870-1920. Toledo's population is smaller now than it was in 1930.
   9. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 16, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5788641)
That said, the smallest city in the bigs in 1920 was Cincy - and Toledo was only 60% as big as that.
(Buffalo was the one option that was a larger city and not way out west (LA/SF) or, uh, kinda west (MIL).)
   10. crict Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:30 PM (#5788662)
How about Montreal or Toronto?
   11. RMc's Daps of the Dope Artists Posted: November 19, 2018 at 09:25 AM (#5789120)
In 1920, Kansas City was less than half the size of St. Louis, and of course significantly further away from the rest of major league baseball than St. Louis already was.

KC is about 250 miles from St Louis, and roughly 500 miles from Chicago, an entire day's travel by rail in 1920. Still, Kansas City had a MLB team in the 19th century (and a Federal League team in 1914-15), and they figured it out somehow.

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