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Tuesday, January 30, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 1-30-2018

Bridgeport Times, January 30, 1918:

A novel scheme by which a batsman would be permitted to steal first base any time the ball is in play has been advanced by a Kansas City lawyer. This attorney has written several letters to Garry Herrmann, chairman of the National Commission, and Herrmann has been interested to the extent of sending copies of his correspondence on the subject to his fellow members of the commission—Tener and Johnson—asking for an opinion of the scheme.

“It’s crazy and awful.”

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: January 30, 2018 at 09:47 AM | 28 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: January 30, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5615659)
One of the best managers of the past few decades and the Apollo of the Box highlight today's Birthday Team. Not much past Davey and Tony, though.

C: Bob Henley (1.18 WAR)
1B: Walt Dropo (3.19 WAR)
2B/Manager: Davey Johnson (27.53 WAR)
SP/3B: Tony Mullane (67.76 WAR)
SS: Charlie Neal (10.17 WAR)
LF: Sandy Amoros (7.43 WAR)
CF: Vin Campbell (4.47 WAR)
RF: Jeremy Hermida (2.69 WAR)

SP: Brooks Lawrence (8.44 WAR)
SP: Mickey Harris (8.38 WAR)
SP: John Patterson (5.06 WAR)
SP: Doc Watson (3.12 WAR)
RP: Luis Garcia (2.71 WAR)

3B when Mullane pitches: General Stafford (0.58 WAR)
Designated runner: Matt Alexander
Fun names: Link Wasem, Harry Dooms, C.J. Riefenhauser, La Schelle Tarver
Seems like someone who should have more than -0.14 career WAR: Jorge Cantu
   2. GGC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:03 AM (#5615665)
As mentioned in Yesterdugout, I read Charlie Bevis's Red Sox vs. Braves in Boston: The Battle for Fans' Hearts, 1901-1952. The book is partly about how fans supported both teams longer than expected.

IIRC, Bevis's theory was that may Boston baseball fans were ecumenical. They supported both teams for a long time despite the long period without success for the Braves. I'm guessing but don't know that this wasn't the case in other 2 team cities such as NY, Chicago, Philly, and Saint Louis.
   3. Nasty Nate Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5615670)
Thanks, GGC. I might read that.
   4. BDC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:11 AM (#5615672)
Boston baseball fans were ecumenical. They supported both teams for a long time

The only living Boston Braves fan that I know would concur. He was keen on both teams in the late '30s, and then the Red Sox brought up all kinds of great players and monopolized attention, even given 1948.

   5. BDC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5615686)
Today's box-score-line records (most regular season games with exactly that ab/r/h/bi line since 1913) are for games where a guy went 2-for-3 with either exactly two RBI or exactly two runs scored.

Now that I'm into lines that include two hits and two runs, some of the RBI totals get insane. 2R/2H could be two grand slams, as in one of today's marks.

3 2 2 2 : Babe Ruth, 18 times
3 2 2 2 : Jimmie Foxx, 6 times
3 4 2 2 : TRIVIA: a contemporary of Ruth (and of Foxx, for a couple of years), a RH slugger overshadowed by his younger brother, also a RH slugger
3 5 2 2 : five players did this once, all of them stars: Dom DiMaggio, Willie Mays, Lou Brock, Bill Madlock, and Tim Salmon

3 2 2 3 : Frank Robinson, 11 times
3 2 2 4 : Barry Bonds, 8 times
3 2 2 5 : Alex Rodriguez, 4 times
3 2 2 6 : TRIVIA: two guys did this twice. The earlier was a switch-hitting minor star who played in two World Series for the Cubs and another for Brooklyn. The later is now most famous for hitting a World Series drive caught by one of the 3522 guys
3 2 2 7 : eight guys did this once, most recently Jeff Kent in 1998
3 2 2 8 : TRIVIA: just one player, once: a Hall of Famer associated with home runs, walks, and pizza. His day included a grand slam, a 3-run homer, and a bases-loaded walk; box score does not mention pizza
3 2 2 9 : TRIVIA: just one player, once: one of several players who had a monster year in a famous expansion season. This single day (two grand slams and a SF caught by the shortstop!) ensured that he would tie for the league lead in RBI instead of tying for third – the guy he did tie with, and the guy he would have, were two of the other legendary career years that season produced
   6. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:34 AM (#5615693)
3 2 2 6: Vic Wertz?
   7. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5615697)
IIRC, Bevis's theory was that may Boston baseball fans were ecumenical. They supported both teams for a long time despite the long period without success for the Braves. I'm guessing but don't know that this wasn't the case in other 2 team cities such as NY, Chicago, Philly, and Saint Louis.


Philly is weird because the Athletics traditionally had way more success and fans than the Phillies. However in 1954 the Phillies had pulled ahead for the first time in 40 years because of the Whiz Kids and the Athletics' incompetent leadership (Connie Mack in his mid-80s, then there was a power struggle). So the Athletics were the ones who wanted a fresh start. That's all I really know, I wonder if there's a similar book about this.
   8. BDC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:37 AM (#5615703)
Vic Wertz is correct!
   9. GGC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5615716)

The only living Boston Braves fan that I know would concur. He was keen on both teams in the late '30s, and then the Red Sox brought up all kinds of great players and monopolized attention, even given 1948.


Bevis thinks that what really killed the Braves in Boston was the Red Sox decision to put road games on the radio in 1951. Up until then, TV and radio usually broadcast home games while the other Boston team was on the road.So your choice was either going to Braves Field, watching the Braves or listening to the Braves when they were at home and scheduling almost always had one team at home and one team on the road. So you had a choice between the Braves or listening to Curt Gowdy's broadcast from Ynakee Stadium, Comiskey Park et cetera.

Plus, Boston fans preferred the long ball.
   10. Nasty Nate Posted: January 30, 2018 at 10:47 AM (#5615717)
Random thing I noticed: Jeremy Jeffress was drafted by the Brewers. They have also traded him away twice. They have also traded for him. They have also signed him as a free agent. That's a lot of transaction types for one player-team combo.
   11. GGC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5615733)
Thanks, GGC. I might read that.


I touched on what he wrote about the post-WWII era, but the book goes back to the post-Civil War era. It can be a little dry and as a non-Bostonian New Englander (Those of us who live outside of Rte. 128 are about half of New England,) I wish it had more focus on the hinterlands. The Braves had a farm team in Hartford for a while. Did that help with marketing? Also, maps would have helped; especially when the streetcar era was discussed.
   12. Nasty Nate Posted: January 30, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5615734)
Was Fenway or Braves Field considered the nicer park by locals? Did that change when Fenway was re-built in the 30s?
   13. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 30, 2018 at 11:08 AM (#5615736)
3 2 2 9: Jim Gentile?
   14. BDC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5615742)
Jim Gentile is the two-grand-slam hitter.
   15. GGC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5615745)
Did that change when Fenway was re-built in the 30s?


Yes. Before Yawkey bought the team, there was a fire that damaged the stadium. This is why the doubles record was set. I forget the guys name, but he hit the ball a lot to the left field corner and couldn't leg out a triple. The previous owner just pocketed the insurance check instead of repairing the stadium.

   16. Der-K: downgraded to lurker Posted: January 30, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5615756)
RIP Kevin Towers, 56.
   17. SoSH U at work Posted: January 30, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5615790)
RIP Kevin Towers, 56.


Wow, I had no idea he was sick.
   18. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: January 30, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5615828)
3 4 2 2 - Irish Meusel?
   19. BDC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5615864)
Irish Meusel is the only guy to go 3422 twice in his career (a detail I should have put in the first post).

That leaves two Cubs: an old-timer (3228) and a very old-timer (3226).
   20. Sweatpants Posted: January 30, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5615869)
3 2 2 6: Augie Galan?
   21. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: January 30, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5615878)
Sabto?
   22. GGC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5615885)
Philly is weird because the Athletics traditionally had way more success and fans than the Phillies. However in 1954 the Phillies had pulled ahead for the first time in 40 years because of the Whiz Kids and the Athletics' incompetent leadership (Connie Mack in his mid-80s, then there was a power struggle). So the Athletics were the ones who wanted a fresh start. That's all I really know, I wonder if there's a similar book about this.


Thanks. I'm assuming that the Browns left St. Louis because they were way worse than the Cardinals. If it weren't for WWII, they would've moved to LA in 1941. I'm not sure is the Nats or some other AL team would've moved to the West Coast to join them.
   23. Mike Webber Posted: January 30, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5616004)
The Brown's had a small trump card over the Cards in the relocation game, they owned Sportsman's Park. So the Cards and the St. Louis Stars were tennants of the Browns.

There was a period in 1953 just before Gussie Busch bought the Cardinals, they were the team looking to leave St. Louis. Fred Saigh the Cardinals owner had a tax issue you know, the kind that comes with a 15-month sentence. Saigh decided to sell the team, and there were credible reports of bidders in Milwaukee, and less credible reports of buyers in Houston, and other locations.

Once Busch bought the team, Veeck realized his time in St. Louis was about up and sold the brewer the park.

The story is told well in the book
Sportsman's Park in St. Louis:
Home to the Browns and Cardinals at Grand and Dodier

the chapter by John Bauer - who spoke at the last KC SABR meeting - wrote the relevant article.


   24. BDC Posted: January 30, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5616020)
Augie Galan went 3226 twice.

Ron Santo once went 3228, the only time it's been done (under the parameters).

Cheers!
   25. Walt Davis Posted: January 30, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5616168)
Seems like someone who should have more than -0.14 career WAR: Jorge Cantu

Similarly it seems like Walt Drop should have more than 3.2 -- RoY when he led the AL in RBI and TB. I suppose it's just the name but I recall hearing it a lot as a kid ... and I think he was in some "50s all-stars" baseball game I had (picked up at a garage sale or something, I'm not that old). Anyway, he alternated solid and atrocious seasons with the bat (for a 1B) and didn't add anything anywhere else. Even that rookie season had enough small negatives everywhere else it adds up to just 2.6 WAR.

Huh, in 1950 AL RoY was Dropo of the Red Sox, NL RoY was Sam Jethroe of the Braves. Probably an easy trivia question for most of you but what other times has the RoY been won by players in the same city (and sure the NY teams are close enough as are SF and Oak)?
   26. Walt Davis Posted: January 30, 2018 at 08:32 PM (#5616171)
Now checking the data, unless I missed one, the other years are 1993 and 1951.
   27. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: January 30, 2018 at 09:07 PM (#5616186)
51 is of course Mantle and Mays. 93 is piazza? And Salmon?

Edit: jeeze, not of course. But 3 are correct
   28. GGC Posted: January 31, 2018 at 08:47 AM (#5616359)
Mike Webber Posted: January 30, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5616004)
The Brown's had a small trump card over the Cards in the relocation game, they owned Sportsman's Park. So the Cards and the St. Louis Stars were tennants of the Browns.

There was a period in 1953 just before Gussie Busch bought the Cardinals, they were the team looking to leave St. Louis. Fred Saigh the Cardinals owner had a tax issue you know, the kind that comes with a 15-month sentence. Saigh decided to sell the team, and there were credible reports of bidders in Milwaukee, and less credible reports of buyers in Houston, and other locations.

Once Busch bought the team, Veeck realized his time in St. Louis was about up and sold the brewer the park.

The story is told well in the book
Sportsman's Park in St. Louis:
Home to the Browns and Cardinals at Grand and Dodier

the chapter by John Bauer - who spoke at the last KC SABR meeting - wrote the relevant article.


Thanks, Mike. Do you know if Cardinal fans also rooted for the Browns?

IIRC, the Browns radio network didn't have the reach that the Cardinal one did, so I imagine that in KC, folks rooted for the Cardinals. But I was wondering if anyone knew about St/ Louis and its immediate environs.

Also, can anyone respond wrt Philly? Could you be a fan of both Grove and Mulcahy?

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