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Wednesday, January 08, 2014

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 1-8-2014

Pittsburgh Press, January 8, 1914:

It was rumored [in Cincinnati] today that Major league magnates have quietly combined to make Federal league backers figuratively shoot themselves to death with their own money.
...
It is said the case of Otto Knabe is the first demonstration of the new scheme.

“Go ahead and grab that $20,000 three-year contract,” President Baker of the Phillies is said to have told Otto. “We can’t give you that. Bind them to it, because with such enormous payrolls they will probably blow in a few months at the most. Your old job will be waiting for you—unless we get a new one in your place.”

I’d say something snarky about Knabe being a 30-year-old second baseman who hadn’t posted an OPS+ above 90 since 1907, so of course they’d want him to leave, but Otto was kind of a big deal. He got downballot support in Chalmers Award voting in 1911, 1912, and 1913. That’s not a guy that a MLB team in the pre-Sabermetric world would have been looking to chase away.

Jerry Lumpe Rutherford (Dan Lee) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 06:45 AM | 33 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, federal league, history, otto knabe

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Jerry Lumpe Rutherford (Dan Lee) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 06:49 AM (#4633040)
A good group of position players on today's Birthday Team. Nobody's going to run on the right fielder.

And why run anywhere when Delta Airlines can get you where you need to go?

C: Walker Cooper
1B: Jason Giambi
2B: Randy Ready
3B: Gene Freese
SS: Reno Bertoia
LF: Jim Busby
CF: Mike Cameron
RF: Jeff Francoeur

SP: Carl Pavano
SP: Jeff Francis
SP: Geremi Gonzalez
SP: Dick Kelley
SP: Brian Boehringer
RP: Bruce Sutter

Manager: Chuck Cottier
Fun Name: Bud Weiser
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 10:24 AM (#4633101)
Frenchy and Giambino not only share a birthday, they are teammates now!
   3. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 10:33 AM (#4633110)
Mike Cameron was part of the return the Mariners got for trading away Ken Griffey Jr.

Cameron would accumulate more WAR in his 4 seasons in Seattle (18.3) than Griffey would for the entire rest of his career (11 seasons--13.1 WAR).

The other player the Mariners got in that trade was prospect Brett Tomko, who--according to MLBTR--is interested in making a comeback in his age 40 season (after not playing anywhere in 2012 or 2013), and has several teams interested.
   4. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 10:35 AM (#4633119)
Randy Ready's 1987 is on the list for all-time great seasons by utility players:

.309/.432/.520 in 124 games, splitting time evenly between second base, third base, and left field.

I remember seeing his name pop up in a Hall of Merit Thread voting on the MVP of the 1987 season, and I had no idea who he was!
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4633142)
Randy Ready is also known for having the horniest name in MLB history.
   6. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 11:18 AM (#4633174)
Also, wow:

Geremi González died after being struck by lightning in Punta Palma, Zulia on May 25, 2008.


33 years old.
   7. Der-K thinks the Essex Green were a good band. Posted: January 08, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4633177)
Don't get me started on Randy Ready, a KPAST legend.

Andruw Jones stays with Rakuten
O's sign scrubby knuckleballers Zach Clark and Eddie Gamboa to minor league deals, they will work with Knucksie

Wonder what the market for Paul Maholm is?
   8. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4633235)
   9. Jerry Lumpe Rutherford (Dan Lee) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:09 PM (#4633242)
Randy Ready is also known for having the horniest name in MLB history.
Randy Johnson and Jack Glasscock demand a recount.
   10. flournoy Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4633262)
The other player the Mariners got in that trade was prospect Brett Tomko


Prospect?
   11. The District Attorney Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:41 PM (#4633271)
Randy Ready is also known for having the horniest name in MLB history.
Ugly Dickshot
   12. Good cripple hitter Posted: January 08, 2014 at 12:45 PM (#4633276)
Mike Cameron was part of the return the Mariners got for trading away Ken Griffey Jr.

Cameron would accumulate more WAR in his 4 seasons in Seattle (18.3) than Griffey would for the entire rest of his career (11 seasons--13.1 WAR).


They also got Antonio Perez, who was the player they sent to Tampa with Lou Piniella in exchange for Randy Winn... who had more WAA in his two and a half seasons in Seattle (4.4) than Junior had in the rest of his career (-1.2).
   13. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:17 PM (#4633327)
Prospect?
Is my memory of that trade failing me?
   14. Good cripple hitter Posted: January 08, 2014 at 01:21 PM (#4633333)
Is my memory of that trade failing me?


Yes. Tomko had finished 7th in the Rookie of the Year voting in 1997 then had two more seasons as a starter before he was traded for Griffey.
   15. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:08 PM (#4633404)
HOF induction stuff is on MLB network and dot com right now.
   16. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4633465)
Walker Cooper's daughter (Sara Cooper) was named Miss Missouri in 1957. 1957 was Walker's last year with the Cardinals; among his teammates that season was second baseman Don Blasingame.

Three years later, Blasingame would marry Sara Cooper. Quipped Walker Cooper: "It's time to quit when you've got a daughter old enough to marry a teammate."
   17. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 04:59 PM (#4633902)
Stupid Hall of Fame talk, taking attention away from the 1957 Miss Missouri vote.
   18. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4633973)
Andruw Jones re-signs with Rakuten for 400 million yen! ($3.8 million)
   19. Steve N Posted: January 08, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4633981)
The Phillies seem to have gotten rid of Chris Wheeler and Gary Matthews as announcers. I have no strong opinion of Wheeler but I liked Matthews. A sort of weird highly pitched voice but seemed to know what he was talking about and was able to communicate it.
   20. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 06:39 PM (#4634050)
Andruw Jones re-signs with Rakuten for 400 million yen! ($3.8 million)
536 career professional home runs and counting!
   21. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 06:42 PM (#4634054)
Also, to reiterate this extremely important piece of news:

Cesar Izturis now joins Steve Lyons, Whitey Lockman, Allie Reynolds, Sam "Toothpick" Jones, and a few others, on the list of players who've been traded straight-up for a Hall of Famer.
   22. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 08, 2014 at 06:49 PM (#4634061)
And Kent Mercker!
   23. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 07:26 PM (#4634085)
This would make for a pretty good trivia question.

Complete list of trades of one Hall of Famer for another Hall of Famer, straight-up:

1. February 28, 1893. Cleveland Spiders trade (young) George Davis to the New York Giants for (a mostly washed-up) Buck Ewing.

2. December 15, 1900. Cincinnati Reds trade Amos Rusie to the New York Giants for Christy Mathewson. (Mathewson was 19. Amos Rusie would only pitch 3 more games in his career.)

3. February 9, 1927. New York Giants trade George "High Pockets" Kelly to the Cincinnati Reds for Edd Roush. (Both players were just about done.)

4. March 17, 1969. Atlanta Braves trade Joe Torre to the St. Louis Cardinals for Orlando Cepeda. (Cepeda was almost done, but would have a few moderately effective years in Atlanta. Torre was just 27, and would have several great seasons--including winning the MVP Award in 1971--with St. Louis).

We can almost include a few more:

(5). December 11, 1931. Chicago Cubs trade Hack Wilson (and Bud Teachout) to the St. Louis Cardinals for Burleigh Grimes. (Teachout was a throw-in--he'd only pitch 1 inning the rest of his career. Burleigh Grimes was just about done. The Cardinals immediately sold Hack Wilson to the Brooklyn Dodgers, where he had a few more decent but injury-plagued seasons before retiring.

(6). November 22, 1920. An even bigger stretch! The Philadelphia Phillies trade Eppa Rixey to the Cincinnati Reds for Greasy Neale and Jimmy Ring. (It's a cheat--Greasy Neale is in the pro football Hall of Fame!)

(7). June 7, 1920. The Phillies trade Dave Bancroft to the New York Giants for Art Fletcher (and cash). (Bancroft was just beginning his career, while Fletcher was ending his. Bancroft is the only one in the Hall of Fame, though Fletcher was just as good a player as Bancroft.)

   24. The District Attorney Posted: January 08, 2014 at 08:27 PM (#4634124)
I would include the swap of Rogers Hornsby for Frankie Frisch and Jimmy Ring in the latter category. Ring wasn't a total non-entity, but he wasn't that great either; was coming off an 81 ERA+ season; and as it turned out, had only 209 innings of 67 ERA+ left in him.
   25. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 08:29 PM (#4634127)
#24--Oh, duh. I knew I'd come across one more that was close, but couldn't remember which one it was. Thanks!
   26. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 09:14 PM (#4634165)
Other trades from the past few years or so that have at least a 0.00001% chance of being a Hall of Famer-for-Hall of Famer, straight-up:

1) Jan 14, 2008: St. Louis Cardinals trade Scott Rolen to the Toronto Blue Jays for Troy Glaus

2) November 6, 2009: Minnesota Twins trade Carlos Gomez to the Milwaukee Brewers for J.J. Hardy

3) July 28, 2011: New York Mets trade Carlos Beltran to the San Francisco Giants for Zack Wheeler

4) November 20, 2013: Texas Rangers trade Ian Kinsler to the Detroit Tigers for Prince Fielder
   27. The District Attorney Posted: January 08, 2014 at 09:25 PM (#4634174)
The idea that Rogers Hornsby could be traded for Frankie Frisch feels so crazy. I'm reminded me of the reaction to the Roberto Alomar/Joe Carter for Fred McGriff/Tony Fernandez trade. Everyone was saying "Nowadays, if a star is traded, it's for prospects! You never see a star-for-star deal like this anymore! Appreciate this trade, because you may never see its like again!" And I remember thinking, "Bill James taught me that when people say things like that, they're usually wrong."

But this time, they weren't wrong. That deal remains an outlier. Hell, Kinsler for Fielder may be the closest thing since, for all I know.
   28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4634184)
Jason Grimsley, Larry Andersen, and Tom Brunansky could also someday join the list.
   29. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: January 08, 2014 at 10:17 PM (#4634197)
December 15, 1900. Cincinnati Reds trade Amos Rusie to the New York Giants for Christy Mathewson. (Mathewson was 19. Amos Rusie would only pitch 3 more games in his career.)


Did this trade happen on The Bizarro World?
   30. Davo Dozier Posted: January 08, 2014 at 10:19 PM (#4634199)
29--Did this trade happen on The Bizarro World?

The Philadelphia Athletics have won the 1905 World Series!!
   31. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: January 08, 2014 at 10:48 PM (#4634216)
Cesar Izturis now joins Steve Lyons, Whitey Lockman, Allie Reynolds, Sam "Toothpick" Jones, and a few others, on the list of players who've been traded straight-up for a Hall of Famer.


Doyle Alexander will join them eventually.
   32. Davo Dozier Posted: January 09, 2014 at 01:04 AM (#4634279)
31-- And David Freese has a tiny tiny tiny chance of joining them, too! (And even later: Kyle Farnsworth.)

(Also, there's a shot we could see two players elected to the Hall of Fame in the same year who were once traded for each other {among others}: Gary Sheffield and Trevor Hoffman!)
   33. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 09, 2014 at 02:24 AM (#4634311)
Are we saying Kent Mercker (traded for Eddie Murray) has no chance with the Veterans Committee? He pitched in the NLCS or ALCS in five different seasons! 3.63 ERA in 16 games! And one of his top comps is Bruce Ruffin, who I always used to confuse with Bruce Sutter.

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