Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, January 08, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 1-8-2018

Bridgeport Evening Farmer, January 8, 1918:

Branch Rickey, president of the St. Louis club of the National League, joined Jack Hendricks, the new manager of the Cardinals, in a flat statement that Rogers Hornsby, the star infielder of his team, was not on the market and that he would be seen in a St. Louis uniform this year. Mr. Rickey said:

“Once and for all time, and this is final, Hornsby will not be sold or traded to any club in North America. Neither Charley Weeghman of the Cubs nor John J. McGraw of the Giants can get him, no matter what they offer.”

...to which Weeghman presumably responded “Okay, but what if we do two transactions? I give you money. Then you give me Hornsby.”

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: January 08, 2018 at 12:22 PM | 18 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: January 08, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5602691)
Not a ton of pitching on today's Birthday Team, but the position players are good. And Jeff Francoeur should be able to get them a good deal on airline tickets from Delta.

C: Walker Cooper (28.95 WAR)
1B: Jason Giambi (50.45 WAR)
2B: Randy Ready (10.92 WAR)
3B: Gene Freese (8.21 WAR)
SS: Ralph LaPointe (0.61 WAR)
LF: Jeff Francoeur (6.09 WAR)
CF: Jim Busby (12.91 WAR)
RF: Mike Cameron (46.49 WAR)

SP: Carl Pavano (16.86 WAR)
SP: Jeff Francis (9.35 WAR)
SP: Brian Boehringer (3.9 WAR)
SP: Dick Kelley (3.48 WAR)
SP: Geremi Gonzalez (2.14 WAR)
RP: Bruce Sutter (24.55 WAR)

Fun names: Joe Just, Bud Weiser
Not that one: Brian Johnson
Not the bass player in The Wrens: Kevin Whelan
   2. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 08, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5602693)
And Jeff Francoeur should be able to get them a good deal on airline tickets from Delta.

...and help the bullpen out every now and then.
   3. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: January 08, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5602716)
So I've been messing around with a possible extension of the Championship Probability Added numbers I post about here sometimes, and noticed something weird on B-R, which will eventually lead to a question...

As most of you probably know, the 1921 and 1922 World Series were both played entirely in the Polo Grounds (the Series was Yankees-Giants both years, and Yankee Stadium opened in 1923). I was looking at the '21 Series from the perspective of RE24, and noticed the following.

The first two games of the '21 Series were both 3-0 shutouts won by the Yankees, and since it was 1921, both of them were complete game shutouts by the respective starting pitchers (Carl Mays in Game 1, Waite Hoyt in Game 2). Both games were, of course, played in the Polo Grounds.

Mays gets 4.7 RE24; Hoyt gets 5.3. Since they pitched the same number of innings and allowed the same number of runs in the same stadium in the same season, you would expect those numbers to be the same. The reason for the difference is that the Giants were the home team in Game 1, and the Yankees were home in Game 2; I assume B-R is basing RE24 on the stadium's run environment over the course of the year, and the AL was higher-scoring than the NL, so the "Yankee Polo Grounds" was higher scoring than the "Giant Polo Grounds."

The question: I know the leagues used different baseballs back in the day. Does anyone know how that was handled during the World Series? (I would guess that the home team supplied their own league's baseballs for each game, but I don't know that for sure.)
   4. BDC Posted: January 08, 2018 at 01:08 PM (#5602732)
I could not keep up my following of Negro League stories from 1928 – got too busy in December and did not resume over the holidays.

So it's back to box score lines :) The most times recording an exact box-score line AB/R/H/BI (regular season since 1913); today for players who went 2-for-3 without scoring a run. For some reason there are lots of catchers involved. I suspect this is because catchers often used to bat eighth routinely, and might get some RBI opportunities but then be left on base by their pitchers.

So I'll make this a "guess the catcher" opportunity.

3 0 2 1 : 22 times by a guy who holds many of these box-score line records and used to hold the career Games Caught record. In second place with 19 is a HOF catcher who was certainly not as good a player as his non-HOF brother

3 0 2 2 : 12 times by a Hall of Merit switch-hitting catcher

3 0 2 3 : four times apiece by six guys. What's odd here is that the four non-catchers were long-career stars: Joe Sewell, Charlie Gehringer, Harold Baines, and Mark Grace. But the two catchers – a c1930 Boston Brave and a Natspo of the 2000s – are relatively obscure players with relatively short careers. The 21st-century guy is currently listed as catching coach for the Marlins, insofar as anyone on the Marlins is sure of a job these days

3 0 2 4 : twice apiece by four guys. The non-catchers are G. Parra and M. Ordoñez. The catchers are two steely guys who are associated with famous championship comebacks, one in the 1938 regular season and one in the 2004 postseason

3 0 2 5 : done eleven times, most recently by Ben Revere in 2014. The two catchers to do it are a 21st-century guy with four vowels in a five-letter first name, and a NL'er of the 60s and 70s whose brother was an umpire

   5. BDC Posted: January 08, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5602742)
Eric, I found one listing for a 1919 World Series baseball on line that indicates the ball is stamped "OFFICIAL AMERICAN LEAGUE" and thus used in Chicago. I'll be danged if I can make anything of the pictured images, but it's at least one possible point of data.
   6. Batman Posted: January 08, 2018 at 01:52 PM (#5602771)
3 0 2 1 : 22 times by a guy who holds many of these box-score line records and used to hold the career Games Caught record. In second place with 19 is a HOF catcher who was certainly not as good a player as his non-HOF brother
Al Lopez and Rick Ferrell?

3 0 2 2 : 12 times by a Hall of Merit switch-hitting catcher
Ted Simmons?
   7. BDC Posted: January 08, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5602775)
Ferrell and Simmons are correct; not Lopez, though.
   8. tolbuck Posted: January 08, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5602777)
3 0 2 4 : twice apiece by four guys. The non-catchers are G. Parra and M. Ordoñez. The catchers are two steely guys who are associated with famous championship comebacks, one in the 1938 regular season and one in the 2004 postseason


Gabby Hartnett and Jason Varitek.
   9. Ziggy: The Platonic Form of Russell Branyan Posted: January 08, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5602782)
I assume #1 is Fisk?

Also, I though that this was neat. Apparently there's a picture of the Merkle game.
   10. BDC Posted: January 08, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5602786)
Hartnett and Varitek, yes. But not Fisk.

That is a great item, Ziggy, including the explanation of how Conlon could get that rather nondescript photo but not one of the mayhem just afterwards.
   11. QLE Posted: January 08, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5602815)
3 0 2 3 : four times apiece by six guys. What's odd here is that the four non-catchers were long-career stars: Joe Sewell, Charlie Gehringer, Harold Baines, and Mark Grace. But the two catchers – a c1930 Boston Brave and a Natspo of the 2000s – are relatively obscure players with relatively short careers. The 21st-century guy is currently listed as catching coach for the Marlins, insofar as anyone on the Marlins is sure of a job these days


Al Spohrer and Brian Schneider?
   12. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 08, 2018 at 02:53 PM (#5602827)
Also, I though that this was neat. Apparently there's a picture of the Merkle game.


Wow.
   13. BDC Posted: January 08, 2018 at 03:00 PM (#5602839)
Al Spohrer and Brian Schneider?

Exactly. Wow. Schneider's name I recognized, but not Spohrer's. They had similar careers, your basic tools-of-ignorance guys who couldn't hit much. I would have figured Spohrer too to have become a coach at some level, but I can't find out what he did after the majors. His NY Times obituary (he died in 1972, age 74) is minimal.
   14. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: January 08, 2018 at 03:29 PM (#5602879)
#1 has to be Bob Boone then.
   15. BDC Posted: January 08, 2018 at 03:32 PM (#5602883)
#1 is indeed Bob Boone, who also holds the records for going 3000, 3010, and 3020.
   16. Walt Davis Posted: January 08, 2018 at 11:17 PM (#5603129)
Branch Rickey, president of the St. Louis club of the National League, joined Jack Hendricks, the new manager of the Cardinals, in a flat statement that Rogers Hornsby, the star infielder of his team, was not on the market and that he would be seen in a St. Louis uniform this year.

Of course these days, we'd be talking about the huge prospect haul the Cards, coming off a 4th place finish and on their way to a 51-78 season, could get for their 2B with 4 years of control left since there's no point trying if you can't go to the WS so clearly they needed to rebuild. We'd be pointing to that ridiculous +18 Rfield and his reliance on BABIP so a major regression was coming. What morons they were for bringing him up a cup of coffee at 19 and two full seasons at 20-21, why didn't they Bryant him?

And sure enough, we'd be right as the pointless Cards never finished higher than 3rd before Hornsby left for FA after 2021. Heck, even keeping him, they didn't finish first until 1926, Hornsby's last season with the Cards and only putting up 4.4 WAR.

Why, the Cards probably could have gotten Charlie Hollocher -- a rookie SS on his way to a 5 WAR season at age 22! -- the promising young C Bob O'Farrell and lottery ticket OF Bernie Friberg. That's like a #2, a #50 and an interesting kid in one deal!! Prospects like that don't grow on trees you know! (They really don't ... Hollocher was clearly very talented but had a very short career, O'Farrell was good, Friberg did manage one 4-WAR season.)

O'Farrell in fact did go to the Cards in 1925 and was a player/manager for them in 1927 and the Reds in 1934.

O'Farrell -- 20 WAR, 5 WAA post-1917
Hollocher -- 23 WAR, 13 WAA
Friberg -- 4 WAR, -11 WAA ... but still lasted 4800 PA

In those 4 years of control, Hornsby put up only 32 WAR -- clearly the Cards would have won that trade.

Rickey was a moron!

Becoming FA after 1921 ... the Cubs are mired in the 2nd division. It's a question of whether he'll join the Giants' powerhouse or go to the 2nd place Pirates (who also had the 2nd highest attendance). The Pirates make the big move, signing him for ages 26-37 and the equivalent of $352.1 M (higher AAV than Stanton and barely Miggy). After he's injured in his age 34 season, fans call the Pirates idiots for signing him through age 37, overlooking that he's already given them 73 WAR for their money. Owing him 3/$101, the Pirates eat $70 M (some cash, some crappy contracts) to shift him to the AL where he manages a 5-WAR season as a 2B/DH then is pretty much done.

The Pirates are happy to pick up the young pitcher Lew Krausse from the A's in that deal ... only to discover they are a generation early. They should have known that time traveling and baseball don't mix.
   17. oscar madisox Posted: January 09, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5603394)
A day late and a dollar short, but the 3025 guy whose brother was an ump was Tom Haller.

   18. Hysterical & Useless Posted: January 09, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5603535)
A day late and a dollar short, but the 3025 guy whose brother was an ump was Tom Haller.


Dang, I should've posted before I left this morning, but I'm compulsive about reading all the comments first and I hadn't gotten through. I never know any of these, so I was thrilled that I'd finally gotten one.

It was Haller, right?

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Dock Ellis
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogBaseball Therapy: One Simple Anti-Tanking Solution - Baseball Prospectus
(54 - 2:27am, Jan 24)
Last: Nero Wolfe, Indeed

NewsblogOTP 22 January 2018: What the Baseball Hall of Fame can teach us about elections
(703 - 12:47am, Jan 24)
Last: DJS, the Digital Dandy

NewsblogRyan Thibs has his HOF Ballot Tracker Up and Running!
(1652 - 12:46am, Jan 24)
Last: QLE

NewsblogOT - NBA 2017-2018 Tip-off Thread
(2872 - 12:24am, Jan 24)
Last: tshipman

NewsblogOT - 2017 NFL thread
(1595 - 11:48pm, Jan 23)
Last: Ray (RDP)

NewsblogGeorge Mitchell on the legacy of the Mitchell Report, PEDs and the Hall of Fame.
(25 - 11:22pm, Jan 23)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogFangraphs: Lars Anderson Discovers Australia
(7 - 10:03pm, Jan 23)
Last: Just drawing conclusions on the wall

NewsblogTop 100 MLB Prospects 2018 | BaseballAmerica.com
(40 - 9:32pm, Jan 23)
Last: Colin

NewsblogThe Mets Have Been Operating As A Small-Market Club For Almost A Decade
(24 - 9:12pm, Jan 23)
Last: J in the Slope

NewsblogRosenthal roundtable: Five MLB players weigh in on the pace-of-play rules and the need for change – The Athletic
(144 - 8:34pm, Jan 23)
Last: David Nieporent (now, with children)

Gonfalon CubsStatus of the Roster mid-December
(108 - 8:28pm, Jan 23)
Last: Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington

NewsblogThe MLBPA Is Failing Its Players
(70 - 8:21pm, Jan 23)
Last: Zach

NewsblogIs Scott Boras Working on Another End-Around? | FanGraphs Baseball
(9 - 5:35pm, Jan 23)
Last: Nasty Nate

NewsblogTop 100 Prospects: Start Of A Ranking Revolution | BaseballAmerica.com
(8 - 4:49pm, Jan 23)
Last: GGC

NewsblogGrichuk to Jays for Leone
(15 - 4:27pm, Jan 23)
Last: Walt Davis

Page rendered in 0.4389 seconds
47 querie(s) executed