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Thursday, February 07, 2013

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 2-7-2013

Milwaukee Sentinel, February 7, 1913:

Is it Roger Bresnahan or Roger Brosnan? This question is raised in a letter printed in a Chicago paper [yesterday]. The writer, John J. Brosnan, of Keystone, Ia., says that Roger Bresnahan is Roger Brosnan for the simple reason that there are no Bresnahans in Ireland and that, as Bresnahan was born in County Kerry the year before the writer, he must be Brosnan.

Brosnan brings up an excellent point, other than the fact that Bresnahan was born in Toledo. That’s in County Lucas.

The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 06:55 AM | 27 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history, roger bresnahan

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   1. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 07:00 AM (#4364749)
After having Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth the last two days, today's Birthday Team is kind of a letdown.

C/Manager: Pat Moran
1B: Carney Lansford
2B: Damaso Garcia
3B: Tom Daly
SS: Charlie Dougherty
LF: Charlie Jamieson
CF: Endy Chavez
RF: Al Smith

SP: Earl Whitehill
SP: Burt Hooton
SP: Juan Pizarro
SP: Scott Feldman
SP: Charlie Puleo
RP: Dan Quisenberry

PH: Benny Ayala
Supercool Delivery: Josh Collmenter
Not that one: Ted Kennedy
   2. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: February 07, 2013 at 08:09 AM (#4364752)
LF: Charlie Jamieson

One of the toughest Sporcle answers I've ever encountered. Jamieson is 5th all-time in hits by a Cleveland Indian.
   3. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 07, 2013 at 08:37 AM (#4364755)
LF: Charlie Jamieson

One of the toughest Sporcle answers I've ever encountered. Jamieson is 5th all-time in hits by a Cleveland Indian.


OK, last week there was a discussion of the best players one never heard of. This may be mine.
   4. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: February 07, 2013 at 10:11 AM (#4364798)
Twins ZiPS are up. Oof - that's a bad team.
   5. Steve N Posted: February 07, 2013 at 10:43 AM (#4364815)
The pitching staff is quite good.
   6. Hack Wilson Posted: February 07, 2013 at 11:12 AM (#4364836)
The pitching staff is quite good.


I listened to thousands of games announced by Jack Brickhouse and the only Cub that he openly hated was Juan Pizarro. As a Cub fan I have a deep loathing for Hooten. Happy birthday Juan, burn in HELL Burt.
   7. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 07, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4364883)
No hitters have amassed amazing stat totals in an Indians uniform. The career leader in games played is another guy you may have never heard of, with 1619 (Nap Lajoie has 1614).

Top ten in hits:

Nap Lajoie - also spent 7 1/2 seasons in Philly
Tris Speaker - also spent 9 years in Boston
Earl Averill - played only 10 full seasons
Joe Sewell - released by the Indians at age 32
Charlie Jamieson - played 14 years with the Indians, but only played 1483 games. Must have been injury-prone.
Ken Keltner - played only 10 full seasons
Lou Boudreau - played only 9 full seasons
Omar Vizquel - also spent 13 years with other teams
Kenny Lofton - played for 11 teams
Terry Turner - couldn't hit
   8. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 12:49 PM (#4364929)
Much of the Indians' history hasn't exactly been conducive to guys with a lot of career hits.

Starting in ~1936, they intentionally built around pitching and defense because Cleveland Stadium's playing field was so huge, power wasn't really an option. Frank Lane showed up in 1957 and spent the next half-decade trading everything that wasn't nailed down and generally annihilating the organization. They were awful for the next few decades, and then starting in the mid-1990s, they began to accumulate guys like Vizquel and Lofton who were talented players who hit for average and were worth keeping long-term.

I'd be stunned if anyone new cracks the Top Ten within the next couple decades; their player development is awful and even if they happen to accidentally stumble onto a guy who can play, he won't be in Cleveland for more than 6-7 years, tops.
   9. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:48 PM (#4365071)
No hitters have amassed amazing stat totals in an Indians uniform. The career leader in games played is another guy you may have never heard of, with 1619 (Nap Lajoie has 1614).


But their pitching is extremely impressive, perhaps the best of any team. Addie Joss, Mel Harder, Bob Feller, Bob Lemon all spent their entire careers with the Indians. Mike Garcia, Stan Coveleski, Willis Hudlin, Early Wynn, and Sam McDowell all pitched over 2000 innings with the team, as did Jim Bagby if you add together father and son.
   10. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 02:57 PM (#4365083)
No hitters have amassed amazing stat totals in an Indians uniform.

I'd nominate the Mets all-time hit leader list to rival the Indians
   11. Randy Jones Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:04 PM (#4365092)
But their pitching is extremely impressive, perhaps the best of any team.


Doesn't really seem that impressive. Gotta be a number of teams that are better than that. The Red Sox and Giants off the top of my head.
   12. BDC Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4365094)
Charlie Jamieson - played 14 years with the Indians, but only played 1483 games. Must have been injury-prone

I knew Jamieson's name because he played on the 1920 World Champions, but couldn't have told you much more about him. He was pretty durable, an everyday player for six years, but platooned earlier and later. He only played 26 games in 1919, and there is no military service or injury indicated in the older encyclopedias; I suspect he played in the minors that year but am not sure. In 1932 the encyclopedias have him as suffering a "Face Injury" (?!) but he was 39 by then anyway and a benchwarmer. He could definitely reach base, but was a singles hitter in an era that increasingly demanded power.
   13. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4365116)
Doesn't really seem that impressive. Gotta be a number of teams that are better than that. The Red Sox and Giants off the top of my head.


The Indians' #10 guy in IP is Sam McDowell with over 2100. The Red Sox have Lefty Grove with 1539. The Red Sox have 3 guys with over 2700 IP. #4 has fewer than 1800. The Giants' #10 guy has about the same as McDowell, but 3 of them are pre 1900.
   14. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:34 PM (#4365124)
MLB Network schedule for Friday

MLB Network schedule for Saturday

With two feet of snow forecasted in the northeast starting Friday night this might be important. Game One of the Australian championship series is Friday at 1PM and Game Two is Saturday at 3PM (presumably not live) I have a hunch that might be a big part of my weekend.
   15. Randy Jones Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4365132)
The Indians' #10 guy in IP is Sam McDowell with over 2100. The Red Sox have Lefty Grove with 1539. The Red Sox have 3 guys with over 2700 IP. #4 has fewer than 1800. The Giants' #10 guy has about the same as McDowell, but 3 of them are pre 1900.


Umm, so you are just referring to quantity? I don't find innings pitched totals all that impressive, especially with changing environments over the years. I'll take the Red Sox or Giants guys based on quality and overall value over the Indians list any day.
   16. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4365137)
MLBTR has Bob Nightengale reporting that King Felix has agreed to a 7/175 deal with the Mariners.
   17. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 07, 2013 at 03:57 PM (#4365153)
Umm, so you are just referring to quantity? I don't find innings pitched totals all that impressive, especially with changing environments over the years. I'll take the Red Sox or Giants guys based on quality and overall value over the Indians list any day.

What I originally said was that no hitter has racked up amazing career stats as an Indian. Not because of lack of quality, but because no hitter was there for a full 15 years of greatness. And Misirlou pointed out that they DO have pitchers who have great career stats as Indians.
   18. Randy Jones Posted: February 07, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4365162)
I know what you said. I was referring to Miserlou's claim about the Indians' pitching being "extremely impressive, perhaps the best of any team". That's why I quoted that part.
   19. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 07, 2013 at 05:03 PM (#4365234)
Umm, so you are just referring to quantity? I don't find innings pitched totals all that impressive, especially with changing environments over the years. I'll take the Red Sox or Giants guys based on quality and overall value over the Indians list any day.


Indian's rotation:

Bob Feller - 3827 IP 122 ERA+
Addie Joss - 2327 IP 142 ERA+
Stan Coveleski 2502 IP 129 ERA+
Bob Lemon - 2850 IP 119 ERA+
Early Wynn - 2286 IP 119 ERA+


Red Sox:

Cy Young - 2728 IP 147 ERA+
Roger Clemens - 2776 IP 144 ERA+

then what? You could add Pedro, Grove, and Smokey Joe Wood, but all of them have 1500 IP or less.

The Giants are closer, maybe even a tad better, with Mathewson, Hubbell, Marichal, Perry, and McGinnity

Like most discussions here, it's important how you define your terms. The Indians and Giants both have 5 guys with good quantity and good quality. The Red Sox have 2, plus 3 guys with outstanding quality, but not much quantity. How you define your terms determines how you find your winner. If you are looking for guys who contributed to the team for only a little while, the Indians boast an impressive lineup as well:

C - John Romano
1B - Jim Thome
2B - Nap Lajoie
SS - Lou Boudreau
3B - Al Rosen
LF - Joe Jackson
CF - Tris Speaker
RF - Manny Ramirez
   20. Walt Davis Posted: February 07, 2013 at 05:05 PM (#4365235)
As a Cub fan I have a deep loathing for Hooton.

Huh? I gather you weren't at Wrigley when he threw his no-hitter. I was. So there!
   21. Randy Jones Posted: February 07, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4365238)
Pedro with the Red Sox had 1383 IP at a 190 ERA+. Yes I take that over the Indians guys. That is just a ridiculous quality advantage
Grove had 1539 IP at a 143 ERA+. That's a big quality advantage too, I'd say it puts him at least better than Lemon or Wynn.
WAR at least, agrees.
   22. Walt Davis Posted: February 07, 2013 at 05:23 PM (#4365247)
Well, are we talking career or peak or some combo?

Looking at career WAR, the Indians are not top-heavy but are extremely deep. Feller is at 60 WAR, Coveleski 2nd at 52. But 3 guys around 40, 2 just under 35 and 3 guys at 28.

The Red Sox are very strong at the top with Clemens (78), Young (63) and Pedro (52). They bottom out faster though with one guy at 42, one just under 35, two at 28 and 3 at 26.

All told the Indians top 10 in WAR is 392, the Red Sox at 405. Pedro, Grove and Smoky Joe Wood will guarantee the Red Sox an easy win on peak value.

The Giants blow them both out of the water with 492 WAR. There is a lot of 19th century in there but they pull out a win using just 20th century too with 419 WAR. Looks like the Red Sox still win easily on peak so might take the overall title. (Somebody who cares can do the digging :-)

By the way, Matt Cain is already 6th in WAR on the 20th C Giants list (9th overall) and should pass Perry for 4th sometime in 2014. He's still 33 WAR behind Marichal for 3rd though.
   23. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 07, 2013 at 05:23 PM (#4365248)
Grove had 1539 IP at a 143 ERA+. That's a big quality advantage too, I'd say it puts him at least better than Lemon or Wynn.


But not better than Mel Harder, who's top 1500 IP are ~ 140 ERA+* and then throws in ~ another 1300 IP at ERA+ between 100 and 114.

* 1932-1935 plus 1938 and 39.
   24. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 07, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4365256)
The Giants blow them both out of the water with 492 WAR. There is a lot of 19th century in there but they pull out a win using just 20th century too with 419 WAR. Looks like the Red Sox still win easily on peak so might take the overall title. (Somebody who cares can do the digging :-)


That would be the Braves

Since 1901, top 10 in WAR 466 total, with maddux, Spahn, Niekro, Glavine, Smoltz all at 55 or higher. Throw in 19th century and they add Nichols, Willis, Clarkson, and Bond, and they blow away the Giants with about 610 total.



   25. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: February 07, 2013 at 06:00 PM (#4365281)
Birthday League update:
2013 February 6          38  21  .644 ---- 
2013 February 5          41  25  .621   .5        
2013 February 4          37  25  .597  2.5  
2013 February 22         38  26  .594  2.5  
2013 February 1          37  27  .578  3.5
News and notes:
* February 16 has lost seven in a row.
* February 15 has won six in a row.
* Jack Jones (February 4) leads the league with a .385 batting average. Skip Schumaker (February 3) is second at .380, then it begins to make sense: Billy Hamilton (February 15) is third at .366 and Roberto Alomar (February 5) is fourth at .356.
* Red Schoendienst (February 2) leads the league with 96 hits, 13 more than anybody else.
* HR Leaderboard: Babe Ruth (February 6) 19, Vic Wertz (February 9) 17, Henry Aaron (February 5) 15, Ron Cey (February 15) 15.
* SB Leaderboard: Hamilton 31, Honus Wagner (February 24) 28.
* Ruth leads the league in SLG (.726), OBP (.491), RC/27 (14.4), BB (62), HR (19), Runs (57), Wins (10), and Complete Games (7). He's second in ERA, at 1.82.
* Wertz leads the league in total bases, with 159.
* Nolan Ryan (January 31) leads the league in IP (117), BB (51), K (116), K/9 (8.92), and opponent steals (20).

Box scores, stats, standings, and league leaders available here.
   26. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: February 07, 2013 at 08:05 PM (#4365387)
BIG NEWS

Scott Richmond, best known for being on the Canadian WBC team, has left the Canadian WBC team with an injury concern of some sort. He is to be replaced by Nick Bucci, who becomes the 49th player in the Milwaukee organization to go to the 2013 WBC.
   27. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: February 07, 2013 at 09:42 PM (#4365417)
Seattle to sign Saunders to a 1 yr deal

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