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Wednesday, March 14, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 3-14-2018

Toledo News-Bee, March 14, 1918:

The story of how Arthur Fletcher nearly lost a pair of fingers from his right hand reached [New York] on Thursday. The star Giant shortstop was trying to count the revolutions of the fans in his motor with the two fingers. He escaped with bruises.

Art Fletcher: A new candidate for Biggest Idiot Ever.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 14, 2018 at 09:44 AM | 38 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 14, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5637715)
Today's Birthday Team features one Hall of Famer and one guy who inexplicably got 2.1% of the HOF vote and fell off the ballot after one year. I don't care all that much about the Hall of Fame, but it's staggering to me that Kevin Brown got less than half as many votes as John Franco or Harold Baines in 2011.

C: Butch Wynegar (26.34 WAR)
1B: Billy O'Brien (3.96 WAR)
2B/Manager: Marty McManus (33.54 WAR)
3B: Brent Gates (5.5 WAR)
SS: Marwin Gonzalez (9.22 WAR)
LF: Jack Rothrock (3.98 WAR)
CF: Kirby Puckett (50.93 WAR)
RF: Candy Nelson (15.92 WAR)

SP: Kevin Brown (68.33 WAR)
SP: Billy Rhines (26.49 WAR)
SP: Arnold Carter (3.08 WAR)
SP: Bill Kennedy (2.69 WAR)
SP: Mike Strahler (0.94 WAR)
RP: Bobby Jenks (8.52 WAR)

Bad name for a pitcher: Bruce Hitt
Fun names: Randor Bierd, Dad Meek
NPB Hall of Fame IF/OF/Manager: Keiji Osawa
   2. dlf Posted: March 14, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5637731)
This is a ~40 year old memory that I haven't checked, but didn't Butch Wynegar get elected to start an All Star game as a write-in candidate?
   3. Batman Posted: March 14, 2018 at 10:35 AM (#5637748)
Steve Garvey started an ASG after being a write-in. Maybe you're confusing your "gar" people.

Wynegar was an all star his first two years but wasn't a starter.
   4. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 14, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5637749)
This year it's like suddenly all the people getting hired as coaches, farm system directors, etc. are players I remember playing, instead of old guys (who were also ex-players but who I do not remember playing). Now I look at the Phillies announcement of their minor league coaching staffs, and every team has recent players on it. And people who made their MLB debuts in the 21st century are starting to be MLB first base coaches and 3B coaches, like Skip Schumaker and Reggie Willits.

Lehigh Valley manager Mickey Morandini!
Lehigh Valley coach Wes Helms!
Clearwater pitching coach Aaron Fultz!
Reading pitching coach Steve Schrenk! (yeah, he was in the bullpen in the Ricky Bottalico era)
Reading coach Rico Brogna!
Clearwater coach Ruben Gotay!
Williamsport manager Pat Borders!
Lakewood pitching coach Brad Bergesen!
Roving minor-league coordinators Chris Truby, Andy Abad and Andy Tracy! Also Ernie Whitt, who I only remember as coach of the Canadian national team.

Most of these guys aren't set for life or anything, but Rico Brogna for example made several million dollars and yet he still wants to be one of the lesser coaches at Reading. Gotta do something.

List of current Major League Baseball coaching staffs
The Yankees coaching staff is particularly youthful, except Larry Rothschild.
   5. Born1951 Posted: March 14, 2018 at 11:05 AM (#5637771)
I was just sure BB Ref used to have player breakdowns for each fielding position in the teams pages, similar to this in Retrosheet, but cannot find it now.
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 14, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5637776)
I don't care all that much about the Hall of Fame, but it's staggering to me that Kevin Brown got less than half as many votes as John Franco or Harold Baines in 2011.

I just think everyone in baseball hates him.
   7. BDC Posted: March 14, 2018 at 11:15 AM (#5637778)
Roving minor-league coordinators Chris Truby

Is this for real? They're summoning the help of the Dark Side, or what?
   8. Nasty Nate Posted: March 14, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5637781)
   9. PreservedFish Posted: March 14, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5637782)
I wonder how much roving roving coordinators do. And how much coordinating, for that matter.
   10. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 14, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5637784)
I just think everyone in baseball hates him.
That, plus a lot of missed time with injuries, traditional counting stats that don't obviously say HOF, unusual career path, and disappointing performance after signing huge contract.
   11. Batman Posted: March 14, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5637794)
This year it's like suddenly all the people getting hired as coaches, farm system directors, etc. are players I remember playing,
You must be younger than I am. The first manager who I remember as a player was Pete Rose in 1984. If that doesn't count, I guess it's Lou Piniella in 1986. I think Davey Johnson is the most recent (and probably the last, unless Joe Torre gets another managing job) manager who had a significant playing career who I don't remember seeing as a player.
   12. Tom Nawrocki Posted: March 14, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5637815)
This is a ~40 year old memory that I haven't checked, but didn't Butch Wynegar get elected to start an All Star game as a write-in candidate?


Wynegar made the All-Star team as a 20-year-old rookie catcher. He deserved it, too; he was hitting .294 with an OBP over .400 at the break.
   13. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 14, 2018 at 12:10 PM (#5637817)
I'm not sure how many guesses it would have taken me, but upon looking up managers, Solly Hemus, who was a player-manager to start 1959, then concentrated on managing later in the year would be the first player I remembered playing who managed. By 1961 Gene Mauch and Alvin Dark were on board as managers.
   14. BDC Posted: March 14, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5637822)
the first player I remembered playing who managed

I wouldn't have known without looking it up either, but in my case it was Eddie Mathews, followed by Frank Robinson and Joe Torre. The latter two were player-managers, and Mathews was only 40 years old when he was named Braves' manager, so with them there was either not much gap between playing and managing, or none at all.
   15. RJ in TO Posted: March 14, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5637823)
That, plus a lot of missed time with injuries, traditional counting stats that don't obviously say HOF, unusual career path, and disappointing performance after signing huge contract.


Also, he moved around a ton, so there was no team (or fan base, or block of writers) looking to promote him as one of theirs, and his appearance in the Mitchell Report.

Despite an excellent overall career, Kevin Brown had absolutely everything working against him in the HOF voting.
   16. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: March 14, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5637833)
My baseball fandom just missed the player-manager stints of Frank Robinson and Joe Torre, so I guess I'll go with Don Kessinger, SS/MGR of the 1979 White Sox.
   17. BDC Posted: March 14, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5637842)
Till I did this search I never realized how impressive Kevin Brown's career was, even though I saw quite a bit of it first-hand:

Player            WAR  GS ERA+  GF   W   L     IP   SO  ERA  FIP
Bob Gibson       81.9 482  127  21 251 174 3884.1 3117 2.91 2.89
Curt Schilling   80.7 436  127  81 216 146 3261.0 3116 3.46 3.23
Kevin Brown      68.5 476  127   1 211 144 3256.1 2397 3.28 3.33
John Smoltz      66.5 481  125 204 213 155 3473.0 3084 3.33 3.24
Juan Marichal    61.9 457  123  11 243 142 3507.0 2303 2.89 3.04 


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 3/14/2018.

I'd add, to the several strikes against him noted above, Brown's mediocre postseason showing (5-5, 4.19 in 13 starts). That includes 0-3, 6.04 in two World Series, so even the one his team won (1997) they were perceived as winning in spite of him. If Brown had gone 4-0 in those two Series, even with his teams splitting them, it would have helped his case a lot.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 14, 2018 at 01:05 PM (#5637860)
Till I did this search I never realized how impressive Kevin Brown's career was, even though I saw quite a bit of it first-hand:

Player            WAR  GS ERA+  GF   W   L     IP   SO  ERA  FIP
Bob Gibson       81.9 482  127  21 251 174 3884.1 3117 2.91 2.89
Curt Schilling   80.7 436  127  81 216 146 3261.0 3116 3.46 3.23
Kevin Brown      68.5 476  127   1 211 144 3256.1 2397 3.28 3.33
John Smoltz      66.5 481  125 204 213 155 3473.0 3084 3.33 3.24
Juan Marichal    61.9 457  123  11 243 142 3507.0 2303 2.89 3.04 


One thing to note is that ERA overrates Brown. He gave up A LOT of UER for his era.. 172 for Brown vs. 65 for Schilling, 107 for Smoltz.
   19. JJ1986 Posted: March 14, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5637875)
All minor league games are going to WBC extra inning rules where a man starts on 2B. I cannot express how terrible this is. Just call the ####### game a tie if you don't want to keep playing.
   20. BDC Posted: March 14, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5637886)
All minor league games are going to WBC extra inning rules where a man starts on 2B. I cannot express how terrible this is. Just call the ####### game a tie if you don't want to keep playing

Whoa. If there were one change that could drive me away from baseball for good, it would be the adoption of that rule in the major leagues. And if they're going to it in AAA, that's way too close for comfort.
   21. PreservedFish Posted: March 14, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5637913)
He gave up A LOT of UER for his era.. 172 for Brown vs. 65 for Schilling, 107 for Smoltz.


Does this stat just track GB%? Or is there something else happening?
   22. PreservedFish Posted: March 14, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5637915)
Whoa. If there were one change that could drive me away from baseball for good, it would be the adoption of that rule in the major leagues. And if they're going to it in AAA, that's way too close for comfort.

Agreed. Horrifying.
   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 14, 2018 at 01:59 PM (#5637919)
Does this stat just track GB%? Or is there something else happening?

I think it's mostly GB%. A GB pitcher with the same ERA as a FB pitcher is generally worse.
   24. PreservedFish Posted: March 14, 2018 at 02:05 PM (#5637925)
As much as I dislike the length of games these days, I still think of extra innings as a delightful treat. They may be a burden to players, managers, media, concessioneers, and janitors, but I still love them. Would this be the most significant gimmick since the DH? I'd take a thousand Spiderman bases before I'd take this.
   25. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 14, 2018 at 02:20 PM (#5637941)
Oh dear. That's horrible. Looks like the people who were saying they were ramping up to instituting it in MLB might be right. I'm pretty close to agreeing with BDC, but then again, if Manfred's uselessness w/r/t making meaningful improvements in pace of play isn't going to drive me away for good, this might not either, as much as I would hate it. I mean, what other sport would I get into? Football? Come on. Sigh...
   26. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: March 14, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5637947)
Thankfully, this ######## of ghost runners in extra innings will never take place in any of my solo Strat-O-Matic leagues.
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: March 14, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5637949)
Does this stat just track GB%? Or is there something else happening?


Brown's UER are fairly standard for a GB pitcher of his era. Schilling's the outlier, with the lowest percentage of UER/ER in history, because he had an extremely low GB percentage, plus and an outstanding K/BB rate (and played in an era when errors were being given out at lower rates than they had historically been).
   28. Joe S. Posted: March 14, 2018 at 02:32 PM (#5637953)
He gave up A LOT of UER for his era.. 172 for Brown vs. 65 for Schilling, 107 for Smoltz.


Does this stat just track GB%? Or is there something else happening?


Wouldn't a GB pitcher have a lot more base runners that "reached on error" than a FB pitcher? Therefore wouldn't you expect a FB pitcher to give up much fewer UER?

Wasn't Schilling an extreme FB pitcher? Surely that would contribute to him giving up much fewer UER than a typical pitcher?

Is there a stat for the number of base runners that a pitcher "allowed" to reach on error? I can't see one on Baseball Reference or Fangraphs.
   29. Joe S. Posted: March 14, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5637954)
I see that SoSH essentially answered my question before I had finished asking it!
   30. Batman Posted: March 14, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5637982)
Is there a stat for the number of base runners that a pitcher "allowed" to reach on error? I can't see one on Baseball Reference or Fangraphs.
It's in the "Batting Against-- Pitching" table as part of the Advanced Stats page. For Brown, it's here.
   31. oscar madisox Posted: March 14, 2018 at 03:07 PM (#5637988)
Does anyone have any idea where one can go to express their outrage at this minor league rule change? I mean, where it might do some good. Saying on here how horrified I am just seems like preaching to the choir.


   32. Joe S. Posted: March 14, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5638023)
Thanks, Batman.
   33. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 14, 2018 at 07:24 PM (#5638169)
… the first player I remembered playing who managed

The preeminent American philosopher, Yogi Berra.
   34. Walt Davis Posted: March 14, 2018 at 07:26 PM (#5638173)
Does anyone have any idea where one can go to express their outrage at this minor league rule change? I mean, where it might do some good.

Rob Manfred's house?
   35. Walt Davis Posted: March 14, 2018 at 07:39 PM (#5638182)
If BDC's answer is Frank Robinson, I guess mine is Frank Robinson. And before looking it up, I coulda sworn Kessinger had managed some team for a couple of years after the White Sox stint but apparently not. Maury Wills in 1980 would be another ... I can't say I actually remember _seeing_ Wills play but I remember him being on those early 70s Dodgers teams and I must have seen some of those on WGN. But the only visual image of him in my brain is earlier photos.

Was Bill Virdon before your time BDC? He took over the Pirates in 72. Or Del Crandall who took over the Brewers in 72?

Huh ... is Bill Virdon the only guy to manage two different teams in the same season? He started 1975 managing the Yanks, got fired, got picked up by the Astros and managed the last 34 games.

Either way a rocky start. Took over the Pirates in 72, fired in 73. Went to the Yanks in 74, fired in 75. Then finally he was in Houston for a long time.
   36. Sweatpants Posted: March 14, 2018 at 08:01 PM (#5638189)
Huh ... is Bill Virdon the only guy to manage two different teams in the same season? He started 1975 managing the Yanks, got fired, got picked up by the Astros and managed the last 34 games.
Billy Martin, who replaced Virdon as the Yankees' manager, had started out the season managing the Rangers.

He also managed both the Tigers and the Rangers in 1973.
   37. Batman Posted: March 14, 2018 at 08:18 PM (#5638193)
Tony La Russa managed the White Sox and A’s in 1986.
   38. BDC Posted: March 14, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5638217)
Was Bill Virdon before your time BDC?

I don't remember Virdon as a player, no. Looking him up, Virdon did play in six games in 1968, by which time I was pretty well into baseball, but I don't remember him (he only had three at-bats; he was a coach at the time and was briefly activated to fill in). Virdon's last season as a regular was 1965, before I was conscious of much about baseball except hotdogs and icecream.

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