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Wednesday, March 05, 2014

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 3-5-2014

Pittsburgh Press, March 5, 1914:

Following is the personnel of an all-star baseball team picked by 11 scribes in the major league cities:

Catcher - James Archer, Chicago National league.
Pitchers - Walter Johnson, Washington, American League; Napoleon Rucker, Brooklyn, National league.
First Baseman - Jacob Daubert, Brooklyn, National league.
Second Baseman - Edward Collins, Philadelphia, American league.
Third Baseman - Fred [sic] Baker, Philadelphia, American league.
Shortstop - John Barry, Philadelphia, American league.
Right Fielder - Joseph Jackson, Cleveland, American league.
Center Fielder - Tyrus Cobb, Detroit, American league.
Left Fielder - Reuben Oldring, Philadelphia, American league.

It’s tough to have too much of a beef with that, knowing what they knew in 1913. I’d have had Chief Meyers catching and Sherry Magee in left, but otherwise it’s fine.

Jack Barry is an interesting call at shortstop, but it makes sense from their perspective: He was the best shortstop in baseball in 1913, was in his mid 20s, had an excellent glove, and many of the other candidates (Wagner, Weaver, Chapman) were either very old or very young.

Regarding Daubert at first, there were players who had better seasons in 1913 (McInnis, maybe Gandil and/or Saier) but they were too young to have any established track record of success.

In an era when guys like Rabbit Maranville (1.8 WAR in 1913) were legitimate MVP candidates (he was third), they largely got this one right.

Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 09:07 AM | 37 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 09:09 AM (#4666606)
Really good top-to-bottom Birthday Team, apart from a shaky infield.

If you're feeling really adventurous, you could move Konerko to third base and play OBP machine Lu Blue at first. But that'd probably be really crazy.

C/Manager: Del Crandall
1B: Paul Konerko
2B: Rabbit Robinson
3B: Don Savage
SS: John Richmond
LF: Elmer Valo
CF: Jeffrey Hammonds
RF: Sam Thompson

SP: Jeff Tesreau
SP: Erik Bedard
SP: Steve Ontiveros
SP: Ryan Franklin
SP: Virgil Barnes
RP: Kent Tekulve

Fun Name: L.J. Hoes
   2. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: March 05, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4666631)
Home Run Baker sounds better than Sic Baker.
   3. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:04 AM (#4666649)
Left Fielder - Reuben Oldring, Philadelphia, American league

I never heard of him before and looking at his career, I'm surprised that he would make the list based on a 1 minute perusal of his stats. 1 of those OFs is not like the rest ...
   4. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:16 AM (#4666657)
TRIVIA: Teams won't let pitchers lose 20 games anymore, but they will let them get close. Since 1969, can you name the seven pair of teammates who lost 18+ games together? You have to be on a lousy team (only one of the pairs pitched on a winning team), but be good enough to get enough starts to lose that many.

Six of the seven were before the WC era.
   5. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:25 AM (#4666663)
Bonderman and Maroth are easy--and then SOMEONE with Wilber Wood in the 70s
   6. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4666667)
I never heard of him before and looking at his career, I'm surprised that he would make the list based on a 1 minute perusal of his stats. 1 of those OFs is not like the rest ...


When this was written, Oldring was coming off four pretty good seasons, and the A's had won it all in three of those four years. In the year that they didn't win, Oldring missed a good chunk of the season with injuries. In that context, picking him for a major league All-Star team after the 1913 season wasn't completely nonsensical.

-- MWE
   7. BDC Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4666668)
I felt sure Phil Niekro would be involved in this somewhere, but apparently not. He did team with a couple of 16-game losers (Pat Jarvis one year and Gene Garber another), but was gone from Atlanta by the time Rick Mahler lost 18 for them.
   8. BDC Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4666674)
And then Clay Kirby lost 20 for the '69 Padres, but Joe Niekro only 17 for them.
   9. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4666675)
Bonderman and Maroth are correct, for the 2003 Tigers. Five of the remaining six happened between 1973-1977. One pitcher shows up twice on the list, losing 18 in back-to-back-years.
   10. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:38 AM (#4666678)
Jerry Koosman and… Jon Matlack?
   11. BDC Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:38 AM (#4666679)
I figured somebody lost 18 for the 1973 Phillies to keep Steve Carlton company, but Jim Lonborg lost only 16 that year. I give up :)
   12. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:38 AM (#4666680)
Stan Bahnsen & Wood
   13. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4666684)
Bahnson and Wood is correct, 1973.

Othre guesses are wrong.
   14. Kiko Sakata Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4666693)
I felt sure Phil Niekro would be involved in this somewhere


He would have totally been my first guess (after Bonderman and Maroth who are recent enough that I remembered that one). The man both won and lost 20 games one year for a terrible, terrible team. I guess their biggest problem was that they couldn't find a #2 starter who could hold the position long enough to actually lose that many games.
   15. Kiko Sakata Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4666694)
I want to guess Mickey Lolich - he had a few huge IP seasons in the 1970s and the Tigers were fairly bad for a good chunk of that decade. But I can't remember any other Tigers pitchers from that era. Lolich and Jim Slaton? I guess I'll have to go look up who was pitching for the Tigers those seasons.
   16. Kiko Sakata Posted: March 05, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4666695)
I want to guess Mickey Lolich - he had a few huge IP seasons in the 1970s and the Tigers were fairly bad for a good chunk of that decade. But I can't remember any other Tigers pitchers from that era. Lolich and Jim Slaton? I guess I'll have to go look up who was pitching for the Tigers those seasons.


Well, I'm right about Lolich. I'd vaguely heard of the other guy, but have no memory of him playing for the Tigers - I think of him as a White Sock.
   17. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 05, 2014 at 12:20 PM (#4666702)
And then Clay Kirby lost 20 for the '69 Padres, but Joe Niekro only 17 for them.

But Niekro joined the Padres (traded for Dick Selma) after he had already lost a game for the Cubs! So the Padres did have teammates with 18 losses that year.

Both Niekro and Selma were traded again at the end of that season. Mutual buyer's remorse?
   18. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: March 05, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4666704)
Maroth and Bonderman are the only two pitchers in the same league to lose 18 in a season since 1990. They're the only two in the same league to lose 19 since 1977.
   19. Greasy Neale Heaton (Dan Lee) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 12:29 PM (#4666705)
Taking a flyer on the horrendous Indians of my youth: Ken Schrom and, gosh, Rich Yett? Schrom and Neal Heaton?

Seems like apart from Swindell, Blyleven, Candiotti, and Sutcliffe, none of their starting pitchers were good enough long enough not to get jerked back and forth from the rotation to mop-up work or from Cleveland to Charleston or Maine.
   20. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:03 PM (#4666723)
Lolich is right, he's the one that has done it twice, but with different pitchers in '74 and '75. Anyone hazard a guess who?

No Indians pitchers, surprisingly. I woulda guessed by Swindell and Candiotti or something.

Of the remaining three:

1. Pitched for a winning team, just two years after winning a championship. Both pitchers are two-time All-Stars.
2. One was a pitcher who was traded to the Reds that year, but had that trade voided. The other pitcher twice led the league in complete games.
3. One led the league in losses that year (22 losses!), but would soon enjoy a Cy Young season. The other was a journeyman who lost 36 games over two years.
   21. BDC Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:10 PM (#4666729)
Anyone hazard a guess who?

Joe Coleman is one, right?

   22. BDC Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:10 PM (#4666731)
I also have another half guess: Vida Blue, after the A's went bad (1977?) But have no idea who his counterpart might be, if there is one.
   23. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4666732)
My knowledge of pitchers who might have lost 18 games 40 years ago is limited to Jerry Koosman, is what I've learned.
   24. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4666737)
Coleman is correct! He and Lolich lost 18 games in 1975.

Blue is correct (he was dealt to the Reds, but the Commish voided it), and it was 1977. Who was his loser teammate?
   25. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:23 PM (#4666739)
Was it one of those guys who joined the A's for the last year of his 18-year career and nobody remembers he was on the A's? Mike Torrez?
   26. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:28 PM (#4666743)
Blue is correct (he was dealt to the Reds, but the Commish voided it), and it was 1977. Who was his loser teammate?


Rick Langford?
   27. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4666744)
One led the league in losses that year (22 losses!), but would soon enjoy a Cy Young season.


Since mid-70s padres teams are good bets for loss accumulation, I'll guess Randy Jones. Not sure who the teammate would be, since it's sadly before Juan Eichelberger's time.
   28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:34 PM (#4666745)
Langford is correct!

Randy Jones is correct. I'll be surprised if anyone gets his teammate, I had never heard of him.

The last pair was in the 80s. I wouldn't have guessed them in a million years, but they're both guys you would have heard of. Their team won 83 games.
   29. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4666747)
Danny Jackson and Mark Gubicza in 1987?

   30. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: March 05, 2014 at 01:58 PM (#4666754)
The 1974 Padres had four starters with single-digit wins and double-digit losses.
   31. esseff Posted: March 05, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4666769)
I'll be surprised if anyone gets his teammate, I had never heard of him.


Traded to St. Louis, where he was not terribly effective or very popular. Fans would transpose the vowels in his last name.
   32. BDC Posted: March 05, 2014 at 02:34 PM (#4666778)
Gubicza in 1987 had an ERA+ of 115. He went 0-5 when the Royals were shut out, 0-5 when they scored one run, 0-5 with a no-decision when they scored two, 0-2 when they scored three (his other loss was by 16-5). That is a vortex of not pitching to the score (he had two shutouts of his own and three games where he gave up just one run, but with far greater support).

Jackson (ERA+ 114) also lost five shutouts, and went 0-2 with one run of support, but managed to win a few of the many games where he got 2 or 3 runs of support.
   33. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 02:42 PM (#4666790)
Jackson and Gubie are correct. The '87 Royals were dead last in the league in runs scored. They had three players (George Brett, Danny Tartabull, and Kevin Seitezer) with an OPS+ over 125, and no one else higher than 95. Their starting shortstop hit .205/.219/.246 over 332 PAs. This was in a juiced ball year.
   34. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: March 05, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4666794)
The '87 Royals were dead last in the league in runs scored.


Yeah, the 118 ERA+ from the pitching staff did a lot of heavy lifting in those 83 wins.
   35. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 05, 2014 at 04:24 PM (#4666821)
The complete list of 18-loss teammates (post 1969):

1973 CHW - Stan Bahnsen and Wilber wood
1974 SDP - Randy Jones and Bill Greif
1974 DET - Mickey Lolich and Lerrin LaGrow
1975 DET - Mickey Lolich and Joe Coleman
1977 OAK - Vida Blue and Rick Langford
1987 KCR - Danny Jackson and Mark Gubicza
2003 DET - Jeremy Bonderman and Mike Maroth
   36. AndrewJ Posted: March 05, 2014 at 10:52 PM (#4667044)
Following is the personnel of an all-star baseball team picked by 11 scribes in the major league cities

Only three of the 10 players selected were National Leaguers, and none of them are in the HOF. Just an example of the balance of power a century ago.
   37. Jose Canusee Posted: March 05, 2014 at 11:35 PM (#4667055)
Hadn't heard of either Oldring or Rucker (lifetime 134-134, one 20 win season and 14-15 in 1913). If there had been pro football then, Al Davis would have picked up both Napoleon Rucker and Lajoie.

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