Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, March 06, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 3-6-2018

Toledo News-Bee, March 6, 1918:

The Cleveland Indians arrived [in New Orleans] on Wednesday without bats, uniforms, or trunks. Their equipment is somewhere in Dixie. The players and baggage traveled on the same train from Cleveland to Cincinnati. Then they parted company. Manager Fohl ordered first practice on Wednesday, and planned to borrow equipment.

I’ve never played professionally, but I imagine it would be more difficult to practice without bats or baseballs.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 06, 2018 at 09:43 AM | 43 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 06, 2018 at 09:45 AM (#5634335)
You know you have a good Birthday Team when Willie Stargell isn't even close to being your best player.

C: Francisco Cervelli (9.45 WAR)
1B: Scott Stahoviak (0.99 WAR)
2B/Manager: Cookie Rojas (9.36 WAR)
3B: Bill Sweeney (13.47 WAR)
SS: Clint Barmes (15.42 WAR)
LF: Willie Stargell (57.47 WAR)
CF: Leonys Martin (10.2 WAR)
RF: Marcus Thames (1.95 WAR)

SP: Lefty Grove (103.63 WAR)
SP: Jake Arrieta (21.68 WAR)
SP: Ted Abernathy (16.12 WAR)
SP: Eduardo Rodriguez (5.09 WAR)
SP: Terry Adams (4.39 WAR)
RP: Anthony Telford (2.68 WAR)

Not those ones: Roberto Duran, James Lofton
One-armed outfielder: Pete Gray
Writer: Ring Lardner
   2. Mike Emeigh Posted: March 06, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5634342)
On the other hand, Stargell is 35 WAR better than the third-best player.

Why is Ted Abernathy listed as a SP? I know he started some games early in his career but virtually all of his value was in relief.

-- MWE
   3. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 06, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5634346)
There's a distinct lack of actual starting pitchers. John Coleman, Ross Detwiler and Bud Podbeilan are the next three pitchers in career GS. Coleman was awful - he gave up 772 hits and lost 48 games one year - and Detwiler and Podbeilan relieved more often than they started. Then you're down into Bert Husting and Roger Salkeld.

The bottom three starters today (Abernathy, Rodriguez, and Adams) are all relievers being pressed into duty as starters.
   4. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: March 06, 2018 at 10:08 AM (#5634357)
On the other hand, Stargell is 35 WAR better than the third-best player.


Nonetheless, that's a solid group of supporting players to go with 2 HOFers. And one would hope that Arrieta will be a lot closer than 35 WAR by the time he's through.
   5. Born1951 Posted: March 06, 2018 at 10:19 AM (#5634379)
Can anyone name the 1987 NL leader in GDP with 24? It's not someone you would expect. The ML leader was Gary Gaetti with 25.

On a related note, I did study of career GDP% for 1950-2017. I looked at the top 1000 in opportunities (AB+BB+SF) with runner at first and less than 2 out.

The highest five:
Jerry Adair 20.4% (149-732)
Ron Coomer 20.0% (131-656)
Yunel Escobar 19.9% (198-995)
Billy Butler 19.2% (207-1078)
Jesus Alou 18.9% (142-751)

The lowest five:
Darren Daulton 4.1% (35-864)
Rob Deer 4.2% (38-903)
Mickey Rivers 4.5% (45-995)
Russell Branyan 4.7% (31-663)
Curtis Granderson 4.8% (58-1198)
   6. Batman Posted: March 06, 2018 at 10:31 AM (#5634395)
It's the 12th anniversary of Kirby Puckett's death. His birthday would have been next week. The year he was born, 1960, was a good one for babies who grew up to be Twins. Pucket, Hrbek, Viola, Brunansky, Al Newman, Steve Lombardozzi, Chili Davis, Mike Pagliarulo, and, of course, Lenny Faedo were all born that year.
   7. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 06, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5634448)
IIRC, Keith Hernandez hit into a bunch of GDPs. Maybe IDRC, though.

edit: He didn't hit into a bunch of GDPs. He finished 8th in the league in GDP once and never again appeared in the top ten.
   8. Tom Nawrocki Posted: March 06, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5634477)
I'll guess the 1987 NL leader was Tony Gwynn. As the lists you post illustrate, the key to avoiding GIDP is to not put the ball into play in the first place.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 06, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5634480)
edit: He didn't hit into a bunch of GDPs.

You're thinking of GWRBIs!
   10. Batman Posted: March 06, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5634486)
Gwynn did lead in GDP's in 1994, the year he almost hit .400.
   11. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 06, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5634492)
Can anyone name the 1987 NL leader in GDP with 24? It's not someone you would expect.

Is it Nick Esasky? When I think of a 1987 NL player who is not someone you would expect, I think of Nick Esasky.
   12. Batman Posted: March 06, 2018 at 12:17 PM (#5634498)
Kevin McReynolds is the NL player I never expect from 1988.
   13. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: March 06, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5634505)
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

EDIT: obligatory, I know...
   14. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 06, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5634510)
The highest five:
Jerry Adair 20.4% (149-732)
Ron Coomer 20.0% (131-656)
Yunel Escobar 19.9% (198-995)
Billy Butler 19.2% (207-1078)
Jesus Alou 18.9% (142-751)
I'm flabbergasted to see that Julio Franco wasn't on the list. Julio's one of my favorite players, but the guy was a living, breathing GIDP for most of the 1980s.
   15. Cris E Posted: March 06, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5634515)
When I picture GDP I always think of late career Jim Rice: hit it hard and run slow.
   16. Batman Posted: March 06, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5634517)
I'm flabbergasted to see that Julio Franco wasn't on the list. Julio's one of my favorite players, but the guy was a living, breathing GIDP for most of the 1980s.
If I did the math right, Franco was at 16.8%- 310 GDP in 1850 opportunities.
   17. BDC Posted: March 06, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5634528)
I was looking at the leaderboards for counter-intuitive GDP leaders. That would be, basically, fast LH power hitters who walk a bit. Carl Yastrzemski led the AL in GDP in both 1962 and '64, for instance: that seems weird to me. A lot of it may just have had to do with playing time, plus batting every day behind guys who got on base pretty often: Pete Runnels, Gary Geiger, Felix Mantilla, Tony Conigliaro.
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: March 06, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5634532)
When I picture GDP I always think of late career Jim Rice: hit it hard and run slow.


And have first base almost always occupied when you step in the box.
   19. salvomania Posted: March 06, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5634542)
I know everybody hates others' fantasy baseball comments/questions, but:

I can keep 2 out these 3, 14-team league, R/RBI/OBP/SLG/TB

Chris Taylor-of/2b ($6); Daniel Murphy-2b ($24); Eddie Rosario-of ($6)

Murphy is one of the best 2b, but I could keep Taylor for 2b and use the cost savings to spring for a stud elsewhere. That said, Murphy will probably outperform Taylor, although batting leadoff Taylor could score 120 runs for the Dodgers...if he's for real, that is, and performs well enough to stay in the lineup.

Rosario makes a nice cheap complementary OF who could hit 30 homers and drive in a ton of runs as the Twins' cleanup hitter... if he, too, is for real....

Taylor has positional flexibility, too, which is valuable in our short-bench league...
   20. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 06, 2018 at 01:39 PM (#5634544)
I was looking at the leaderboards for counter-intuitive GDP leaders. That would be, basically, fast LH power hitters who walk a bit.


Lance Parrish almost led the league in 1987 (23 GIDP) and he was sort of a Three True Outcome guy, right? Not fast though. And not LH.

I guess being slow and RH outweighs any other attributes that might lead to GIDP. Look at Yunel Escobar and Ron Coomer up there. Both guys who you heard tell about how slow they were and you would not expect an infielder to be so slow, as if it made them fascinating oddities.
   21. Sweatpants Posted: March 06, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5634556)
Escobar's ranking that high probably has more to do with the fact that he's a contact hitter who hits a ton of ground balls than with his speed. I don't think that he's notably slow.
   22. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 06, 2018 at 01:51 PM (#5634557)
Cross-posted from the Romero thread: There have been 10 major leaguers named Romero and 5 of them were LHPs.

10 Romeros seems low. I thought it was a common name. And none of them have been very good, except Ricky Romero in his brief career. I've never heard of 7 out of 10 of these guys, mostly very recent players. Where are all the Romeros?

Ed Romero: 1912 career AB
Alex Romero: 299 career AB
Stefen Romero: 215 career AB (active)
Mandy Romero: 77 career AB
Niuman Romero: 18 career AB

Ricky Romero: 801.1 career IP
J.C. Romero: 661.1 career IP
Ramon Romero: 67.1 career IP
Enny Romero: 55.2 career IP (active)
Davis Romero: 16.1 career IP

Anyone remember Ed Romero?
   23. Batman Posted: March 06, 2018 at 02:15 PM (#5634573)
I remember Ed Romero with the Brewers. He and Rob Picciolo were pretty much the same player and I thought the Brewers had them both as some kind of affirmative action program because the rest of their lineup was the opposite of Romero and Picciolo.
   24. Born1951 Posted: March 06, 2018 at 02:29 PM (#5634584)
The 1987 NL leader in GDP was Willie McGee. He also led the league in opportunities with 154, so that was a factor. His GDP% that season was 15.6, NL average was 11.3.
If I did the math right, Franco was at 16.8%- 310 GDP in 1850 opportunities.

You did the math exactly right! Franco is 24th highest on my list. He is 9th all-time in total GDP. In case anyone was wondering, the all-time leader is this category with 362, Albert Pujols, ranks 128th at 14.4%.
   25. Batman Posted: March 06, 2018 at 02:37 PM (#5634587)
I thought McGee usually hit second, after the pitcher and Vince Coleman, neither of whom spent much time on first, but he mostly hit fifth in 1987. It was usually Coleman, Ozzie Smith, Tommy Herr, and Jack Clark before him. Clark led the NL in OBP and walks that year.
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 06, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5634609)
Anyone remember Ed Romero?
Dude. I cited him in like the third post on the Romero thread. A little credit please to a kid who spent waaaay to much time with his 1986 Topps set.
   27. EddieA Posted: March 06, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5634622)
with 10 WAR, Cookie Rojas must have been highly overrated in his day. 5-time Allstar. MVP votes in 3 different seasons. Compare with HOF vote getter Omar Vizquel, 45 WAR, 3-time Allstar, MVP votes in 1 season.
   28. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 06, 2018 at 03:38 PM (#5634641)
I think Cookie Rojas was popular with the media. There were a lot of other good Cuban players at the time, but he had more of an upper-middle-class background so he was probably one of the few who they liked to interview.

He was also seen as the veteran leader of the Royals who were surprisingly a winning team just a couple years after being an expansion team.
   29. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 06, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5634669)
with 10 WAR, Cookie Rojas must have been highly overrated in his day. 5-time Allstar. MVP votes in 3 different seasons. Compare with HOF vote getter Omar Vizquel, 45 WAR, 3-time Allstar, MVP votes in 1 season.


Rojas had 10.6 WAR in his five All-Star seasons, and was negative (cumulatively) for the rest of his career.
   30. BDC Posted: March 06, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5634679)
Looking back well before Jim Rice, there were a disproportionate number of Red Sox leading the league in GDP. Since 1939 (when records start): Joe Vosmik, Bobby Doerr, Vern Stephens, Jackie Jensen three times, Yaz, Stuart, Malzone, Scott, Orlando Cepeda, Tony Perez, Tony Armas, Rice of course, then Wade Boggs in 1988 – but Adrian Gonzalez (in 2011) the only one since.

For that half-century (1939-88), the Red Sox grounded into 6,827 double plays, far ahead of every other franchise. The Tigers were second with 6,353; the Reds last among the original 16 with 5,743; the median is around 6,000. The top five are all AL teams, I assume because the coming of the DH meant more runners on base for the AL clubs.
   31. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: March 06, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5634681)
Chris Taylor-of/2b ($6); Daniel Murphy-2b ($24); Eddie Rosario-of ($6)


Murphy coming off knee surgery. Probably will be ok, but it wouldn't surprise me if his production dropped a bit this year.
   32. Batman Posted: March 06, 2018 at 04:34 PM (#5634682)
The 1990 Red Sox didn't have the league leader in GDP's, but they did have four of the top ten players and set the team record with 172 total. The Red Sox have six of the top ten team season totals.
   33. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: March 06, 2018 at 04:40 PM (#5634683)
Anyone remember Ed Romero?
I don't remember watching him play, but I remember having him as the utilityguy on my 1983 APBA team. I was eight years old and didn't know much about baseball, but I knew that there was value in a guy who hit .300 and played six positions. Of course, he wasn't a real .300 hitter, but instead a ho-hum bench guy who had a couple good months. This was something I learned in 1984, when he turned back into a pumpkin and just barely OPS'ed .600.
   34. SoSH U at work Posted: March 06, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5634694)
The 1990 Red Sox didn't have the league leader in GDP's, but they did have four of the top ten players and set the team record with 172 total.


They grounded into six in a single nine-inning game against Minnesota that year. One night earlier, they grounded into two around-the-horn triple plays against the Twins.
   35. AndrewJ Posted: March 06, 2018 at 09:26 PM (#5634734)
Letterman did a subsequent Top 10 list of things rarer than the Twins turning two triple plays in the same game. Number 1 was (and remember, this was 1990): "The Yankees making one double play."
   36. Walt Davis Posted: March 06, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5634740)
Davis Romero: 16.1 career IP

I swear to God I have never been to Aguadulce, Panama. Or even Sweetwater, Texas.

I was gonna say that Rojas is one of those guys obviously not as good as my inner child remembers him. His very limited MVP love did mostly come in the two seasons he hit 300 -- WHICH IS WHAT A GOOD HITTER IS SUPPOSED TO DO GODDAMMIT! They never managed to sneak him a GG though.

Now for a (possibly deserving!) 1972 All-Star (and Royal!) that I have never heard of, I bring you this guy

I think I count 5 Royals on that 1972 team. I checked, they were 500 at the break, 9 games back, so it wasn't that. Was there rampant ballot stuffing that convinced the AL they should please the fans? (Game was in Atlanta so it wasn't that either.)
   37. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 06, 2018 at 09:59 PM (#5634741)
Dude. I cited him in like the third post on the Romero thread. A little credit please to a kid who spent waaaay to much time with his 1986 Topps set.


Yeah, but you got all fancy and said Eduardo Romero when his real name was Edgardo Romero.
   38. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 06, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5634750)
Was at The Ballpark of the Palm Beaches for today's Astros @ Nationals game, sitting directly behind home plate, 14 rows back. Just a a few rows in front were about 24 scouts, judging by the entire case of complimentary bottled water distributed around the 3rd inning. That's about 3 times as many as I ever saw last season when sitting in similar locations. Might just reflect the amount of talent in the two organizations, and every team knows how to count to 25 and 40 these days, but I wondered if either team had put the word out about anyone's availability. No one left after the starters came out. Sat next to a guy who was going to a game at every Grapefruit League ballpark this year - he'd already been to 8.

The Astros Charlie Morton was hitting 97 MPH at times, and was regularly at 94 or higher. Pretty good for early March. Ken Giles was at 98 MPH. He didn't play today, but the Nationals highly touted prospect Victor Robles looked very good earlier - made a diving catch in deep left center on Saturday that had the entire dugout line up on the field to high five him as he came in.
   39. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 07, 2018 at 08:49 AM (#5634789)
Yeah, but you got all fancy and said Eduardo Romero when his real name was Edgardo Romero.
Well, I said 1986 Topps. Nine-year-old me couldn't afford the fancy Donruss set that had the full names on the back. Sue me.
   40. Batman Posted: March 07, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5634886)
Well, I said 1986 Topps. Nine-year-old me couldn't afford the fancy Donruss set that had the full names on the back. Sue me.
"Lynn Ryan? George Seaver? Who the #### are these guys?"
   41. BDC Posted: March 07, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5634905)
"Lynn Ryan? George Seaver? Who the #### are these guys?"

I didn't realize till very recently, when I looked at a random baseball card I was using as a bookmark, that Mickey's full name is John Milton Rivers.
   42. PreservedFish Posted: March 07, 2018 at 12:16 PM (#5634914)
"Ain't no sense worrying: If you have no control over something, ain't no sense worrying about it -you have no control over it anyway. If you do have control, why worry? The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n. So either way, there ain't no sense worrying."
   43. SoSH U at work Posted: March 07, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5634928)

"Ain't no sense worrying: If you have no control over something, ain't no sense worrying about it -you have no control over it anyway. If you do have control, why worry? The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n. So either way, there ain't no sense worrying."


When Reggie Jackson once remarked to a reporter that he had an IQ of 160, Rivers responded, "Out of what, a thousand?"

My favorite philosopher.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Eugene Freedman
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP 2018 August 13: 'Don't confuse sports with politics,' Kosovo tells Bosnia
(1482 - 3:35pm, Aug 18)
Last: Stormy JE

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (August 2018)
(866 - 3:33pm, Aug 18)
Last: Brian White

NewsblogWeekend OMNICHATTER for August 18-19, 2018
(12 - 3:23pm, Aug 18)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogIt’s official: PawSox to move to Worcester - The Boston Globe
(9 - 3:17pm, Aug 18)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogOT: Soccer Thread (2018-19 season begins!)
(325 - 3:11pm, Aug 18)
Last: G. Bostock

NewsblogCalcaterra - Dusty Baker Drops Truth Bombs
(23 - 3:11pm, Aug 18)
Last: Brian White

Gonfalon CubsThe Third Third
(166 - 2:45pm, Aug 18)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogRays Disrupt Baseball’s Tanking Industry by — Get This — Trying to Win - The New York Times
(52 - 2:34pm, Aug 18)
Last: Bug Selig

NewsblogLatest bigotry reminds us that baseball is a white man's game.
(312 - 2:30pm, Aug 18)
Last: bunyon

NewsblogLooking back at the Gio Gonzalez trade.
(34 - 2:28pm, Aug 18)
Last: Bote Man is no David

NewsblogOT - 2018 NBA Thread (Pre-Season Edition)
(98 - 2:26pm, Aug 18)
Last: PJ Martinez

NewsblogAthletic Writer Throws Fit Over Rhode Island Not Giving Into Stadium Financing Scheme
(3 - 2:23am, Aug 18)
Last: stevegamer

NewsblogYou don't need Top Secret Clearance to OMNICHATTER! for August 17, 2018
(94 - 2:04am, Aug 18)
Last: spanx for the memories

Sox TherapyExtra Special
(37 - 12:56am, Aug 18)
Last: SoSH U at work

NewsblogOT Gaming: October 2015
(835 - 10:03pm, Aug 17)
Last: DJS, the Digital Dandy

Page rendered in 0.4275 seconds
46 querie(s) executed