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Monday, April 23, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 4-23-2018

Toledo News-Bee, April 23, 1918:

Eddie Collins was shooting for a record today. If he completes the White Sox-Tiger game he will hold the record for consecutive games. Yesterday he equaled the mark set by Sam Crawford, former Tiger, with 472.

Meanwhile, a high school student named Lou sits at a Manhattan soda fountain, utterly unimpressed.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:49 AM | 18 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: April 23, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5658380)
Today's Birthday Team would be a lot better if they could do something about that first base logjam. Camilli played 100% of his defensive innings at first base, so he's locked in at the initial sack. Sunny Jim played three innings at second base once, but otherwise was exclusively a first baseman. It felt like cheating to play him at second.

C: Darryl Cias (0.1 WAR)
1B: Dolph Camilli (42.84 WAR)
2B: Emilio Bonifacio (4.06 WAR)
3B: Chuck Harmon (-0.51 WAR)
SS: Sammy Meeks (-0.28 WAR)
LF: Jason Tyner (2.35 WAR)
CF: Andruw Jones (62.81 WAR)
RF: Bob Ganley (6.25 WAR)

SP: Warren Spahn (99.9 WAR)
SP: Jim Scott (25.35 WAR)
SP: Harry Coveleski (16.33 WAR)
SP: Elam Vangilder (15.86 WAR)
SP: Carlos Silva (8.55 WAR)
RP: Rheal Cormier (9.45 WAR)

Manager/Backup 1B: Jim Bottomley (35.33 WAR)
Owners: Arthur Soden, Joseph Lannin, Dan Donahue
Prime Minister/Canadian Baseball Hall of Famer: Lester B. Pearson
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 23, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5658471)
Manager/Backup 1B: Jim Bottomley (35.33 WAR)

Is everyone who played with Frankie Frisch for more than 2 seasons in the HoF?
   3. Ziggy's screen name Posted: April 23, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5658524)
Bottomley isn't even the worse of the Frisch Friends. Jesse Haines checks in at 32.5 WAR.

Was Lloyd Waner also Frisch's fault? Right era, but they never played together.
   4. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 23, 2018 at 02:06 PM (#5658546)
Bottomley isn't even the worse of the Frisch Friends. Jesse Haines checks in at 32.5 WAR.


Frankie's HOF friends:

Bottomley - 35.3 WAR
Haines - 32.5
Highpockets Kelly - 25.6
Ross Youngs - 32.2
Fred Lindstrom - 28.4
Chick Haley - 30.1
   5. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 23, 2018 at 02:09 PM (#5658547)
Frisch joined the Veteran's Committee in 1967, the year that Lloyd Waner was elected. I don't know whether Frisch joined the committee before or after that year's vote, and I'm not sure where my copy of "The Politics of Glory" is.
   6. RJ in TO Posted: April 23, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5658550)
The story (or at least a story) for the Lloyd Waner election was that the VC was incorrectly presented with Paul Waner's stats instead. If that's the case, I can't really blame the voters.
   7. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: April 23, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5658563)
The National League is hitting .237/.318/.383 so far. So, Tom Lampkin. Or Damon Buford.

The American League is a more robust .246/.320/.403. So Terry Shumpert or Ricky Ledee.
   8. Batman Posted: April 23, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5658567)
Everybody is hitting a combined .241/.318/.393, about the same as the career of Tyler Flowers- .240/.315/.394.
   9. BDC Posted: April 23, 2018 at 02:41 PM (#5658578)
The heck of it is that these Frisch Friends are often forgotten as the good players they were, instead of the bad HOF choices they became. Every one of them had his moments. Even Lloyd Waner was pretty good early on: you could slip his first three seasons into Ichiro's early ML career and not notice the interpolation.

By the same token, there are guys like Hal Clift and Stan Hack who I think people now consider a lot better than Hafey or Bottomley, but they probably weren't; they were just proto-saber-favorites.

And by "people" I mean the couple of thousand of us obsessed by such things :)
   10. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 23, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5658604)
The heck of it is that these Frisch Friends are often forgotten as the good players they were, instead of the bad HOF choices they became. Every one of them had his moments. Even Lloyd Waner was pretty good early on: you could slip his first three seasons into Ichiro's early ML career and not notice the interpolation.

By the same token, there are guys like Hal Clift and Stan Hack who I think people now consider a lot better than Hafey or Bottomley, but they probably weren't; they were just proto-saber-favorites.


Going back to the list in #4:

Bottomley - 35.3 WAR
Haines - 32.5
Highpockets Kelly - 25.6
Ross Youngs - 32.2
Fred Lindstrom - 28.4
Chick Haley - 30.1

Contemporary or near contemporary players at the same positions who were better, and likely far better, who are now mostly forgotten:

Joe Judge - 47 WAR
Urban Shocker - 53.2
Birthday boy Dolph Camili - 42.8
Bobby Veach - 47.8
Stan Hack - 52.6
Bob Johnson - 57.3
   11. vortex of dissipation Posted: April 23, 2018 at 03:31 PM (#5658621)
I'd give Youngs a bit of a break when judging him by career WAR, because of his illness and death at age 30, playing his last game at age 29.
   12. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 23, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5658626)
The story (or at least a story) for the Lloyd Waner election was that the VC was incorrectly presented with Paul Waner's stats instead.

That's just a joke. I think.
   13. Batman Posted: April 23, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5658636)
Lloyd Waner did hit .316 with 2459 hits. If you just look at those two numbers, George Van Haltren is the only similar player who was done playing before Lloyd was elected and who isn't in the Hall now.
   14. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 23, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5658656)
I'd give Youngs a bit of a break when judging him by career WAR, because of his illness and death at age 30, playing his last game at age 29.


Give him a break how? Overlook the fact that he had half a HOF career at best? Not call his election a mistake? Kirby Pucket had a better career, and a better (or at least longer) peak, and he is rightly called a weak (at best) selection? So did Albert Belle.
   15. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 23, 2018 at 04:40 PM (#5658657)
I'd give him a break when judging him by career WAR, because of his illness and death at age 30, playing his last game at age 29.
   16. shoewizard Posted: April 23, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5658660)
Sure are a lot of pretty big name sluggers having craptastic starts to their seasons. Here is select list of guys with sub .700 OPS, (MLB avg .711 right now), plus Hosmer and Posey thrown in for good measure.

Name                     Tm   G  PA  AB  R   H 2B 3B HR RBI BB  SO   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS OPS+
NeilWalker#             NYY  15  65  60  5  11  2  0  0   3  5  12 .183 .246 .217 .463   29
CarlosGomez             TBR  20  88  81 10  13  3  0  3   6  4  30 .160 .227 .309 .536   51
YasielPuig              LAD  20  83  75 10  16  4  0  0   6  7  16 .213 .277 .267 .544   55
DomingoSantana          MIL  21  83  73  5  16  1  0  0   3  9  25 .219 .313 .233 .546   55
ChrisDavis
*             BAL  21  84  73  3  12  2  0  2   6 10  26 .164 .274 .274 .548   55
EdwinEncarnacion        CLE  19  80  70  6  10  1  0  4   6  6  24 .143 .241 .329 .569   53
CarlosSantana
#          PHI  21  93  73 14  11  4  0  2  10 16  14 .151 .301 .288 .589   67
JoeyVotto*              CIN  20  86  74  2  18  1  0  0   6 10  10 .243 .337 .257 .594   69
JayBruce
*               NYM  20  75  67  5  13  6  0  1   8  8  16 .194 .280 .328 .608   71
YoenisCespedes          NYM  20  89  82  9  16  1  0  4  18  6  37 .195 .258 .354 .612   71
GarySanchez             NYY  17  72  69  9  13  5  0  3  13  2  15 .188 .222 .391 .614   64
MarcellOzuna            STL  19  85  81  8  20  2  0  2  11  3  23 .247 .271 .346 .616   73
RyanZimmerman           WSN  22  80  73  7  13  2  2  3  11  6  18 .178 .250 .384 .634   72
FranciscoLindor
#        CLE  19  90  82 11  18  5  0  2   8  6  21 .220 .281 .354 .635   72
MattCarpenter*          STL  20  87  69 10  12  4  0  2  10 16  22 .174 .322 .319 .641   82
KyleSeager
*             SEA  20  84  78  6  17  4  0  3  12  4  16 .218 .262 .385 .647   80
CoreySeager
*            LAD  19  91  79 10  19  4  0  1   8  9  13 .241 .330 .329 .659   87
AndrewMcCutchen         SFG  21  91  80 11  17  3  0  3  11 11  20 .213 .308 .363 .670   89
GiancarloStanton        NYY  20  92  81 11  15  3  1  4  12  9  32 .185 .283 .395 .678   84
VictorMartinez
#         DET  18  74  66  4  17  5  0  1  10  5   8 .258 .311 .379 .690   88
CarlosGonzalez*         COL  20  72  68  8  16  2  1  3  11  3  17 .235 .264 .426 .690   79
LgAvg per 600 PA            193 600 532 69 128 26  2 17  65 55 138 .241 .318 .393      .711
BusterPosey             SFG  19  75  68  6  18  3  0  2   8  6   9 .265 .320 .397 .717  101
EricHosmer
*             SDP  21  93  83 10  20  7  0  2   4 10  26 .241 .323 .398 .720  105 


Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 4/23/2018.
   17. AndrewJ Posted: April 23, 2018 at 07:57 PM (#5658743)
Harry Coveleski was Stan's brother, and as a rookie in the final days of the 1908 regular season he beat the Giants three times. Had the Giants won just one of those games, nobody would remember Fred Merkle today.

And according to Christy Mathewson's Pitching in a Pinch, the Giants got to Harry in 1909 by imitating the sound of a snare drum when he was on the mound -- apparently in his teens Harry took up the drums to impress a hometown girl, who rejected him.
   18. Hank Gillette Posted: April 24, 2018 at 02:06 AM (#5658851)
The story (or at least a story) for the Lloyd Waner election was that the VC was incorrectly presented with Paul Waner's stats instead. If that's the case, I can't really blame the voters.


The story I heard was that Paul Waner was so good, they elected his brother too.

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