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Wednesday, April 25, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 4-25-2018

Albuquerque Morning Journal, April 25, 1918:

Just fifty years ago they had a great ball club in Cincinnati. It was the Cincinnati Reds and the roster included the great players of the late sixties.

Forty-nine years ago this club went through an entire season without meeting defeat. During the season they won eighty-one games.

In memory of this great team of half a century ago Cincinnati is going to unfurl a baseball flag this year, a flag which was presented to those Reds of 1868 and which has been stored away in moth balls since the end of that season.

In honor of the 1868-1869 Reds, the 2018 Reds will attempt to go through an entire season without winning a game.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: April 25, 2018 at 10:15 AM | 51 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: April 25, 2018 at 10:17 AM (#5659791)
A solid Birthday Team today. One of the greatest shortstops who ever lived, an OBP machine who can play anywhere, and a stack of cromulent pitching.

C: Erik Pappas (0.35 WAR)
1B: Joe Hague (1.88 WAR)
2B: Jimmy Brown (8.6 WAR)
3B/Manager: Fred Haney (9.42 WAR)
SS: Pop Lloyd (0 WAR, Negro Leagues legend)
LF: Tony Phillips (50.94 WAR)
CF: Bobby Estalella (14.08 WAR)
RF: Jacque Jones (11.58 WAR)

SP: Russ Ford (33.39 WAR)
SP: Connie Marrero (8.52 WAR)
SP: J.P. Howell (7.86 WAR)
SP: Bob Johnson (6.38 WAR)
SP: Roy Parmelee (3.32 WAR)
RP: Darren Holmes (7.33 WAR)
RP: Ken Tatum (6.43 WAR)

Owner: Drew Baur
Broadcasters: Joe Buck, Larry Osterman
Eephus thrower: Kazuhito Tadano (0.2 WAR)
Fun names: Belve Bean, Snipe Conley, Jake Freeze
Manager/infielder in Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame: Yukio Nishimoto
Never played for the Cardinals: Red Bird
Umpires: Bill Grieve, Ed Vargo
   2. Nasty Nate Posted: April 25, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5659796)
Interesting stat line for Yoenis Cespedes so far. He's batting .195 with only 17 hits. He has 1 double and 5 homers. Yet he has 21 RBI. It's hard to average an RBI per game when you are slugging .380.
   3. PreservedFish Posted: April 25, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5659804)
He's been insanely clutch. Plenty of 1-for-5 days where he got the biggest hit of the game.
   4. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 25, 2018 at 10:36 AM (#5659809)
It's nice that there's a new claim to fame for Kaz Tadano.
   5. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: April 25, 2018 at 10:39 AM (#5659811)
Padres beat the Rockies by 8 on Monday -- Rockies beat the Padres by 8 on Tuesday.

Padres debutant Eric Lauer was chased after 3 innings, and they got 2 innings of relief from a RHP submariner (Adam Cimber) and 2 more innings of relief from another RHP submariner (Kaz Makita). Don't see that very often.
   6. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 25, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5659826)
Also in that Rockies/Padres game, David Dahl extended his hitting streak that dates back to 2016. It's only ten games, but still, that's a long hitting streak.
   7. Batman Posted: April 25, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5659854)
The lowest slugging for anybody who averaged an RBI per game in ten or more games since 1900 was Fred Sington, who slugged .436 and had 28 RBI in 25 games in 1936. Maikel Franco has 18 RBI in 17 games and has slugged .410.

Of course, 1 RBI/G seasons are rare. The worst SLG for anybody who's done it in a full season (or even close to a full season) is Vern Stephens, .539 and 159 RBI in 155 G in 1949.
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5659862)
Of course, 1 RBI/G seasons are rare.

That's an understatement :-) There are on 47 seasons of 150+ RBI in MLB history.

Edit: Gehrig has 4 of the top 13 seasons, and 7 of the top 50. It's fun to bat behind Babe Ruth.
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 25, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5659864)
I'm working from home today and I have MLB Network on in the background. On MLB Central, they're asking some guy in a huge cowboy hat about the NFL Draft. Are you f***ing kidding me?
   10. Batman Posted: April 25, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5659882)
I'm working from home today and I have MLB Network on in the background. On MLB Central, they're asking some guy in a huge cowboy hat about the NFL Draft. Are you f***ing kidding me?
That's still better than Chris Russo talking about anything.
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5659894)
That's still better than Chris Russo talking about anything.
Totally agree. The fact that that guy has a TV show is absolutely incomprehensible.
   12. villageidiom Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:10 PM (#5659903)
I've posed this scenario elsewhere, but interested in Dugout thoughts.

A batter is HBP by a LHP. He glares back, then proceeds slowly to first. As play is resumed he takes his lead. The moment the pitcher starts his windup, the runner sprints directly toward the pitcher. After a second or two he turns toward second base and proceeds there.

I'm thinking there's a huge probability of one or more of these:

1. Balk.
2. Obstruction by fielder coming to "defend" the pitcher.
3. Stolen base because nobody covered second, thinking a fight was about to start.

All of this assumes an umpire doesn't just call time and start handing out ejections.

I've considered 5.09(a)(13) but the comment indicates the rule pertains to interfering with the pivot man on a double play attempt. 5.09(b)(1) (the "base path" rule) only applies when a tag play is being made, which the pitcher can't do once he has started his windup. So until the pitcher throws home or first the runner can go pretty much anywhere except back to the dugout, and after that a dash directly toward second would make that rule moot.

Also, the biggest probability is:

4. He gets another HBP the next time up.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:13 PM (#5659905)
I've posed this scenario elsewhere, but interested in Dugout thoughts.

A batter is HBP by a LHP. He glares back, then proceeds slowly to first. As play is resumed he takes his lead. The moment the pitcher starts his windup, the runner sprints directly toward the pitcher. After a second or two he turns toward second base and proceeds there.

I'm thinking there's a huge probability of one or more of these:

1. Balk.
2. Obstruction by fielder coming to "defend" the pitcher.
3. Stolen base because nobody covered second, thinking a fight was about to start.

All of this assumes an umpire doesn't just call time and start handing out ejections.


I would hope the umpire would recognize this was a violation of the spirit of the rules, and immediately call the baserunner out, and eject him.
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:19 PM (#5659915)
All of this assumes an umpire doesn't just call time and start handing out ejections.


I think that's the most likely outcome.
   15. mathesond Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5659918)
Wouldn't the runner be out for leaving the base path?
   16. Ziggy's screen name Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:21 PM (#5659919)
I hope that everybody would have a good laugh over this stunt, the runner would get his balk/stolen base, and the rules committee would immediately meet to do something to prevent this kind of nonsense in the future.

But as far as I can tell it's perfectly legal.
   17. Ziggy's screen name Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5659925)
No, you're allowed to run anywhere you want. The base-path rule says that if somebody is trying to make a tag on you, you must run directly to the next base (or back to the last base). The base path is really the shortest route between wherever you are when the tag is attempted and the bases that you're between.
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:22 PM (#5659926)

Wouldn't the runner be out for leaving the base path?


No. There's no basepath unless a play is being made on the runner. Until then, he can take whatever route to the next base he desires.
   19. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5659937)
No, you're allowed to run anywhere you want. The base-path rule says that if somebody is trying to make a tag on you, you must run directly to the next base (or back to the last base). The base path is really the shortest route between wherever you are when the tag is attempted and the bases that you're between.

This is only true because no one has tried these tricks to abuse it. If this happened, it would immediately be legislated that the base path is a designated lane in a direct line from base to base.

I still think the ump should call the player out, and eject him. And then the league should back up the ump, and suspend him. I don't care what the rule says.

Faking an assault on an opponent to gain a base is grossly unsportsmanlike.
   20. mathesond Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5659939)
Interesting. I never knew that.

   21. SoSH U at work Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:35 PM (#5659947)
This is only true because no one has tried these tricks to abuse it. If this happened, it would immediately be legislated that the base path is a designated lane in a direct line from base to base.


That would be a terrible fix to this hypothetical.

Edit: And realistically, it would only happen a few times at the MLB level. In the future, you'd just throw the ####### out at second.
   22. Batman Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5659950)
It reminds me of the "skunk in the outfield" play, where the runner on first ran out to right field, hoping to draw a throw and let his teammate score from third.
   23. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5659957)
That would be a terrible fix to this hypothetical.

How else are you going to police it? You can't expect a pitcher to pitch while someone's charging at him.

When people try to game rules for advantage, you end up with sub-optimal outcomes as it's hard to encompass all possible behaviors in a written set of rules.

The other alternative is just to give the umps discretion to eject a player for gross lack of sportsmanship, and leave it purely subjective.
   24. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:40 PM (#5659960)
It reminds me of the "skunk in the outfield" play, where the runner on first ran out to right field, hoping to draw a throw and let his teammate score from third.

Yeah, that should be illegal.

Hell, the ump should tell the manager, either get your guy back in the base path, or you forfeit the game. This sort of crap does nothing but harm the game.
   25. BDC Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:43 PM (#5659967)
I can't get the rulebook to download, but I think there is a specific clause forbidding making a mockery (or travesty, or something) of the game – maybe the "Piersall rule," because I think running backwards around the bases is a specific instance, and may have inspired the rule.
   26. Batman Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5659970)
Here's the "travesty" rule.

(b) Retiring a Runner
Any runner is out when:
(10) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs
the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the
defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire
shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;

There's also this:
(2) after touching first base, he leaves the base path, obviously
abandoning his effort to touch the next base;
   27. Ziggy's screen name Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5659972)
Looking into dropped-third-strike rulings and found a pretty neat article on the origins of the rule. Thought I'd leave it here for you good folks.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5659973)

How else are you going to police it? You can't expect a pitcher to pitch while someone's charging at him.


If a baserunner makes any steps toward the pitcher during the course of a pitch, the runner is out.

You don't have to involve the basepath rules, which work very well as written.

   29. BDC Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5659974)
Thanks, Batman! So it's that specifically written … and it's not the Piersall situation (which was running in the correct order but ass-first).

I still think it might apply. You're not running in reverse, you're running perpendicular to the baseline, but you are still trying to confuse the defense and make a travesty.
   30. SoSH U at work Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5659978)
(10) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs
the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the
defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire
shall immediately call “Time” and declare the runner out;


That's the Germany Schaefer rule.
   31. SandyRiver Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5659984)
This is only true because no one has tried these tricks to abuse it. If this happened, it would immediately be legislated that the base path is a designated lane in a direct line from base to base.

I assume the "direct line" legislation is partly snark, otherwise we'd see lots of sprained/broken ankles from runners trying to turn "square corners" rather than rounding the base when trying to advance to the next base. Maybe limit the rule to runners trying to steal? Eliminate the balk possibility when a runner charges outside the direct line while the pitcher is on the rubber?
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5659989)
As an aside, a year ago I was umpiring a little league game, and a player who had reached second on a fielder's choice (the batter was retired on a force at first) thought for some reason that he'd been retired, and he started running toward his dugout behind first. A run-down ensued, and the player ended up back at first, safe. One of the coaches complained that the runner should have been called out since he had already reached second.

A few days later, he brought it up again, and pointed to Rule 10. I told him neither condition applied. He wasn't trying to confuse the defense; he was the one who was confused. And it clearly was not an attempt to make a mockery of the game.

   33. SoSH U at work Posted: April 25, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5659991)
I assume the "direct line" legislation is partly snark, otherwise we'd see lots of sprained/broken ankles from runners trying to turn "square corners" rather than rounding the base when trying to advance to the next base.


That's because ballplayers are sadly not equipped with Dyson Ball technology. Some day.

   34. bunyon Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:16 PM (#5660003)
Snapper's idea to eject the runner is exactly right and the rule Batman dug up would be all the basis anyone would need to do it.

Now, whether the umps figured it out in the confusion or not is up for debate. My guess is that, in reality, it probably ends up with both the runner and pitcher ejected.
   35. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5660008)
RBI story, Indy League style:

I picked up a couple of Lancaster Barnstormers from the airport coming in for the season. These guys were teammates last year and began talking about some teammates. The one guy said "I was 6 for 7 with RISP in the xxx series and had no RBIs. When I told <lazy and slow teammate> that he was costing me RBIs, he said, "Hit doubles.""

It's funny, the 6'2" strapping guy is the punch and judy SS and the 5'9" guy of average size is a slugger. The smaller guy had a hell of a handshake, though.
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5660011)
I assume the "direct line" legislation is partly snark, otherwise we'd see lots of sprained/broken ankles from runners trying to turn "square corners" rather than rounding the base when trying to advance to the next base. Maybe limit the rule to runners trying to steal? Eliminate the balk possibility when a runner charges outside the direct line while the pitcher is on the rubber?

You can add a proviso that the runner can go outside (but not inside) the path to "turn a corner", as long as a play is not being made on him at the time.
   37. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5660019)
I would hope the umpire would recognize this was a violation of the spirit of the rules, and immediately call the baserunner out, and eject him.


if that happened in a HS game I was umping, that's what I would do.

I've considered 5.09(a)(13) but the comment indicates the rule pertains to interfering with the pivot man on a double play attempt. 5.09(b)(1) (the "base path" rule) only applies when a tag play is being made, which the pitcher can't do once he has started his windup. So until the pitcher throws home or first the runner can go pretty much anywhere except back to the dugout, and after that a dash directly toward second would make that rule moot.


I don't know if MLB has a rule like this, but in HS, it is considered interference if the offense does anything to deliberately induce a balk. I would rule this to be one of those.
   38. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:27 PM (#5660021)
I hope that everybody would have a good laugh over this stunt, the runner would get his balk/stolen base, and the rules committee would immediately meet to do something to prevent this kind of nonsense in the future.


There is a specific rule that says the umpire may act at his discretion if a situation occurs that is not covered by rule.
   39. villageidiom Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5660024)
OK, so now let me change the scenario. No HBP, no glaring at the pitcher. Let's say he got a single, or a walk, or whatever, and reached first safely. And otherwise the scenario continues as above. What cause would the umpire have for ejection?
   40. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:33 PM (#5660027)
What cause would the umpire have for ejection?


Attempting to incite a riot.
   41. PreservedFish Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5660031)
Attempting to incite a riot.


No, you'd just assume he was nuts, not violent.

I think in that case, he's very likely to be tagged out, either by the pitcher himself or at second base. But if he made it safely, I think the umpires might allow him to stay safe (50%), and a huge argument would ensue from the opposing manager.
   42. villageidiom Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5660034)
I don't know if MLB has a rule like this, but in HS, it is considered interference if the offense does anything to deliberately induce a balk. I would rule this to be one of those.
MLB does not have such a rule.
   43. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5660045)
But if he made it safely, I think the umpires might allow him to stay safe


If after getting hit, the batter starts to charge the mound, and then diverts to first base, he will get ejected. I don't see how this is any different. I would rule it interference and dare the league to overrule me.
   44. villageidiom Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:50 PM (#5660049)
MLB has rules against fielders in the batter's field of view attempting to distract a batter during a pitch. They also have rules against members of the offense moving to distract fielders in the act of fielding a batted ball. From what I can see there are no rules against a runner distracting a pitcher while pitching. I mean, think of a runner dancing back and forth, faking a steal, etc. None of that is prohibited, and all of that is meant to distract.
   45. villageidiom Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5660052)
I think in that case, he's very likely to be tagged out, either by the pitcher himself or at second base.
If the pitcher has started his windup, there's no way the pitcher can tag him. If you start the windup your only options are to step and throw to the base, or to throw a pitch. Anything else is a balk.

If the pitcher throws, and whoever gets it throws to second, and someone is actually covering second, then sure the runner will almost certainly be tagged out. That's the risk for the runner. But if the fielders are charging the mound to join in the expected fray, or stand and watch in befuddlement, then there's nobody at 2B and the runner will be safe.
   46. SoSH U at work Posted: April 25, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5660054)
None of that is prohibited, and all of that is meant to distract.


I don't have a problem with anything meant to distract or deceive, from either the baserunner or the defensive team.

If an action is reasonably perceived as a threat of physical violence, that's a different story.

So if a baserunner simply starts harmlessly walking toward the pitcher, the only solution necessary is to simply pick him off/throw him out.

   47. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 25, 2018 at 02:02 PM (#5660068)
If the pitcher has started his windup, there's no way the pitcher can tag him. If you start the windup your only options are to step and throw to the base, or to throw a pitch. Anything else is a balk.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say because you are using imprecise terminology. if the pitcher is in the windup, he cannot stop. he has to throw home. If the pitcher is in the stretch position and has not yet come set, he can do whatever he wants to do. if he has come set but not yet begun his motion, he can step off and do whatever he wants to do. if he has started his motion home, he has to continue. Under which scenario are you proposing this fake assault take place?
   48. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 25, 2018 at 02:22 PM (#5660101)
I don't know if MLB has a rule like this, but in HS, it is considered interference if the offense does anything to deliberately induce a balk. I would rule this to be one of those.

MLB does not have such a rule.


yes it does. Rule 6.04(a)3:

(a) No manager, player, substitute, coach, trainer or batboy shall at any time, whether from the bench, the coach’s box or on the playing field, or elsewhere:

(3) Call “Time,” or employ any other word or phrase or commit any act while the ball is alive and in play for the obvious purpose of trying to make the pitcher commit a balk.

PENALTY: The offender shall be removed from the game and shall leave the playing field, and, if a balk is made, it shall be nullified.


Emphasis mine. So the runner is not out, but he is ejected.
   49. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: April 25, 2018 at 02:27 PM (#5660108)
OK, so now let me change the scenario. No HBP, no glaring at the pitcher. Let's say he got a single, or a walk, or whatever, and reached first safely. And otherwise the scenario continues as above. What cause would the umpire have for ejection?
#############.
   50. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: April 25, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5660124)
And if 6.04(a)3 did not exist, this rule applies:


8.01(c)

(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.


In the absence of 6.04(a)3, I would rule runner out and ejected for interference and unsporting conduct under the authority of this rule.
   51. Rennie's Tenet Posted: April 25, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5660148)
It's funny, the 6'2" strapping guy is the punch and judy SS and the 5'9" guy of average size is a slugger. The smaller guy had a hell of a handshake, though.


When I was in college, I was 5-11 and 150 pounds, my roommate was 6-3 and ranged anywhere from 225 to 250. When we played 2-on-2 basketball, we could beat anyone who thought we were worth playing against because he brought the ball up the court and I was a monster down low. We'd be up 3 or 4 points before the other guys figured out that they had to switch who they were covering.

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