Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Thursday, May 17, 2018

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 5-17-2018

Toledo News-Bee, May 17, 1918:

Baseball players who land exempted “bomb proof” jobs were assailed [in Chicago] on Friday by President Ban Johnson of the American League. The dash by Joe Jackson of the White Sox to find a shipbuilding job after being placed in Class 1 roiled Johnson’s patriotism.

A number of major leaguers in munition plants devote a portion of their time to baseball and are said to approximate their old-time salaries.

“I don’t impugn motives of players in this war work,” said Johnson, “but if they take it up to avoid the trenches I hope Provost Marshal General Crowder grabs them.”

So you’re impugning their motives. Got it. Must have been tough for Ban to avoid all those German bombs and bullets from his office in Chicago.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:42 AM | 65 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5674082)
Not a great Birthday Team today, but better than yesterday's collection of talent. Decent pitching and a great center fielder today.

C: Wiki Gonzalez (1.52 WAR)
1B: Carlos Pena (25.14 WAR)
2B: Lou Chiozza (0.26 WAR)
3B: Harry Riconda (-0.48 WAR)
SS: Leo Norris (-0.55 WAR)
LF: Carlos May (10.49 WAR)
CF: Cool Papa Bell (0 WAR)
RF: Jose Guillen (6.35 WAR)

SP: Hal Carlson (25.92 WAR)
SP: Billy Hoeft (20.48 WAR)
SP: Pascual Perez (18.96 WAR)
SP: Elmer Steele (4.57 WAR)
SP: Greg Mathews (3.34 WAR)
RP: Rube Vickers (2.75 WAR)

Owner: Del Webb
Fun name: Porfi Altamirano
Pro Football Hall of Famer: Ace Parker
   2. Rennie's Tenet Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5674099)
Johnson was 54 years old in 1918. Didn't he try to enlist?
   3. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5674107)
Yeah, he "tried" to "enlist", but he would have known as well as we do that the Army wasn't going to send an older tubby guy to the trenches. My snide remark was mostly based on him, as a guy who knew he had a 0% chance of dying in the Ardennes, criticizing people who wanted to find a way to help the war effort without getting blown up.
   4. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5674128)
Wiki Gonzalez is a name that has good connotations for long time users of this site...
   5. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5674134)
Today's box-score-line records are for 1-for-4, not scoring, with various RBI totals. Regular season, ab/r/h/bi, since 1908; trivia in bold:

4 0 1 1: How about a trifecta? The guys who achieved this exact line most often (87, 84, and 83 times respectively) are three long-time players whose careers overlapped in the 1970s. Two are Hall of Famers. Two were third basemen; the other threw left-handed. All had memorable World Series moments. None was anywhere near an all-time-great hitter

4 0 1 2 : Harry Heilmann, 28 times

4 0 1 3 : This has been done five times apiece by three different players. One became famous in the 1940s by popular acclaim but then lost some of his luster with an unpopular stance. The second was a long-career glove-man IF and slugger who stayed in the game after retirement; in fact, I saw him in a coaching box a few days ago. The third was a #1 draft pick who never achieved greatness but has also had a long career and is still playing

4 0 1 4 : The only player to do this twice was a 1970s NL journeyman who is the third-best ballplayer in his own family. He never did much in nine seasons, but got some Rookie of the Year votes for a campaign in which he hit .228 with 13 home runs

4 0 1 5 : This weird line has been done twice. First by Bill McCahan of the A's, in a game that he pitched and won (a five-hitter) in 1948. McCahan hit a SF, drew an RBI walk, hit a 3-run double, and then grounded and fouled out.

Second by Scott Cooper, one of the least-likely two-time All-Stars in baseball history. In 1995, the Red Sox 3B grounded out twice, with an RBI the second time, hit a SF, hit a three-run triple, and then struck out.
   6. Nasty Nate Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5674142)
4 0 1 3 : The third was a #1 draft pick who never achieved greatness but has also had a long career and is still playing
Adrian Gonzalez?
   7. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5674151)
Gonzalez is correct!
   8. Batman Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5674153)
One became famous in the 1940s by popular acclaim but then lost some of his luster with an unpopular stance.
The People's Cherce, Dixie Walker?
   9. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:50 AM (#5674156)
Walker is another of the 4013 guys.
   10. Batman Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5674161)
4 0 1 4 : The only player to do this twice was a 1970s NL journeyman who is the third-best ballplayer in his own family.
I cheated on this one. The two times that guy did it were four days apart.
   11. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5674164)
4014 is Hector Cruz.
   12. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5674166)
4 0 1 1: one is Brooks Robinson?
   13. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5674173)
Hector Cruz, yes. (I had not noticed that they were four days apart – that's amazing, Batman.) And Brooks Robinson is third in 4011 games with 83.
   14. Born1951 Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:04 PM (#5674175)
So who had the Dodgers and Marlins with the same record (16-26) after 42 games? Dodgers are 29-48 since their 91-36 start last season.

The AL Central is 41-84 vs teams outside their division. Wonder what the record worst is in that department?
   15. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5674195)
I'll go with Graig Nettles as another 4 0 1 1
   16. Batman Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5674197)
Texas was leading the AL West at 52-62 when the 1994 season ended, but the AL West was 144-201 (.417) against the other divisions, better than the AL Central has been. The Rangers were 44-40 outside of the division that year and only 8-22 inside it.
   17. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5674199)
Nettles is not one of the 4011 leaders. He had 65 such games, a healthy total, but not high on the leaderboard.

I should clarify about the other 4011 third baseman, so as not to mislead … he played a lot of 3B, but his World Series heroics came with the bat, after he'd moved to first base.
   18. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5674204)
Dwight Evans

edit: And by Dwight, I mean Darrell
   19. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5674205)
Tony Perez
   20. eric Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:42 PM (#5674211)
The second was a long-career glove-man IF and slugger who stayed in the game after retirement; in fact, I saw him in a coaching box a few days ago.


Tim Wallach?
   21. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:46 PM (#5674223)
Yeah, Perez makes more sense. Evans was putrid in the WS.
   22. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5674224)
Perez is correct; he had the most 4011 games (87). Wallach is not the last of the 4013 leaders. We are still looking for that 5-time 4013 current coach, and for the other memorable World Series player (a non-HOFer, BL/TL) who had 84 4011 games.
   23. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5674227)
And if it's Perez, that's the 2 HOFers, which leaves a long career LH thrower, non-HOFer who played in the 70's.

Vada Pinson.

edit: Ack. Forgot about the WS part. Not Pinson

Bill Buckner
   24. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5674230)
a long career LH thrower, non-HOFer who played in the 70's.

Bill Buckner?
   25. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5674231)
Yes, Buckner had 84 4011 games!
   26. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5674233)
I think face got in before my edit.
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: May 17, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5674234)
Buckner?

Crap.
   28. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5674241)
The second was a long-career glove-man IF and slugger who stayed in the game after retirement; in fact, I saw him in a coaching box a few days ago.


Gotta be the Rangers first base coach, Steve Buechele.
   29. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5674247)
Gotta be the Rangers first base coach, Steve Buechele

Good guess given my fandom, but "glove-man" and "slugger" both rule out Buechele :)
   30. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:29 PM (#5674282)
Good guess given my fandom, but "glove-man" and "slugger" both rule out Buechele :)


Heh, well I thought you were taking liberties with both terms, like 3B man to describe Perez. Buechelle had 7 seasons of double digit HR in the pre-silly ball era, high of 22, and had 28 fielding runs.
   31. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:35 PM (#5674288)
OK, going through the AL base coaches:

Gary Pettis was a glove man but not a slugger. And not an IF.

Phil Nevin was a slugger but not a glove man

Ah, Matt Williams.

   32. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5674289)
Matt Williams it is :)
   33. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 17, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5674429)
4 0 1 4 : The only player to do this twice was a 1970s NL journeyman who is the third-best ballplayer in his own family. He never did much in nine seasons, but got some Rookie of the Year votes for a campaign in which he hit .228 with 13 home runs


Hector Cruz was maybe the hottest prospect in baseball heading into the 1976 season. He had hit .306/.394/.574 at AAA Tulsa the year before, with 29 homers and 116 RBIs, and was just 22. The Cardinals traded off their incumbent Gold Glove third baseman, Ken Reitz, to make way for Cruz. Having made that commitment to him, the Cardinals ran Cruz out to third base nearly every day, even though he was awful, hitting .228/.286/.338 with horrible defense as well. I can only assume those RoY votes were for his potential rather than his performance. There really wasn't a strong Rookie of the Year candidate in the league that year.

The Cards then re-acquired Reitz from the Giants for 1977 and moved Cruz to the outfield, where he wasn't any better. It's a miracle he lasted as long as he did, playing more than 600 major league games, with a career line of .225/301/.353.
   34. Rally Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:19 PM (#5674472)
What is the record for biggest agent difference between one player's MLB teammates?

For example, Julio Franco played with Pete Rose (b 1941) and Jarrod Saltalamacchia (b 1985)?
   35. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:22 PM (#5674476)
What is the record for biggest agent difference between one player's MLB teammates?
Good question that will definitely help me procrastinate writing my brief! So Franco is at 44 years. I'm going to start with Warren Spahn and see where that takes me.
   36. Rally Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5674481)
I guess it would have to be Minoso.

Satchel Paige (1906) and Harold Baines (1959). Actually, the 1980 White Sox had a 19 year old player named Ricky Seilheimer, two years younger than Baines, but from the game logs it looks like he was not on the team at the same time Minoso was. Baines did play in the same game as Minoso. Minoso and Paige were in the same lineup a few times as well.
   37. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5674482)
Spahn pitched 4 games for the 1942 Boston Braves. Also on that team (and appears to have been on the roster all season) was utility IF Johnny Cooney (b. 1901). Spahn finished with the 1965 Giants, who also had 19-year-old Ken Henderson (b. 1946). So that's 45 years.
   38. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:29 PM (#5674483)
Well, ok, non-Minoso division.
   39. Rally Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5674485)
Speaking of Paige, Negro League teammate of Bill Gatewood (b 1881) and Skip Lockwood (1946).
   40. Rally Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5674488)
Nolan Ryan has Benji Gil (1972) and Roy McMillan (1929), only 43 years.
   41. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5674489)
Jamie Moyer: 1986 Cubs, Davey Lopes (b. 1945) --> 2012 Rockies, Tyler Chatwood (b. 1989) = 43 years.
   42. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5674490)
Dibs on Orosco.
   43. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5674495)
Jesse Orosco: 1981 Mets, Mike Marshall (b. 1943) - Orosco actually debuted in 1979, but there was no one over 35 on the Mets at the time. --> 2003 Twins, Justin Morneau (b. 1981). Only 38 years, which is surprising. He just never played with anyone really old or really young on either end of his career.
   44. JJ1986 Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5674496)
A-Rod was teammates with Rich Gossage (born 1951) and Luis Severino (born 1994).

John Franco was teammates with Pete Rose and Jose Reyes, which feels like it should be longer but is only 42 years.
   45. Rally Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5674497)
I'll take Tommy John then.

Early Wynn (1920) and Deion Sanders (1967) - 47 years.
   46. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5674503)
Tommy John played with Early Wynn (b. 1920) and Deion Sanders (b. 1967). That's 47 years.

John and Wynn both pitched in September 1963.
John and Sanders might not have been on the roster at the same time in 1989, but it was close.
John was released on May 30th, and Sanders' first game was May 31st.

Edit: Aged pop for Rally.
   47. Rally Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:51 PM (#5674504)
Pete Rose, Tony Perez, and Jim Kaat also come up short - didn't play with anyone really old when they broke in.
   48. Rally Posted: May 17, 2018 at 04:54 PM (#5674509)
Ichiro also, even going back to Japan. He played with a 37 year old when he broke in, and the Mariners don't have anyone younger than 24 this year, and the Marlins of the last 2 years nobody super-young either.
   49. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5674515)
Jimmie Foxx played with Jack Quinn (b.1883) on the 1927-30 Athletics, and ultimately with Granny Hamner (b. 1927) on the 1945 Phillies. "Only" 44 years, but interesting that it was only 15 years apart.

With Quinn himself, I could only get from Wee Willie Keeler (b. 1872) to Van Lingle Mungo (b. 1911), just 39 years. I might have missed somebody.
   50. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 05:03 PM (#5674517)
John Franco was teammates with Pete Rose and Jose Reyes, which feels like it should be longer but is only 42 years.

likewise Warren Spahn who played with Paul Waner and Tug McGraw--but that's only 41 years
(although I believe that's still the record for career length (Waner started in 1926 and Tug lasted until 1984)
   51. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5674522)
This isn't a winner, but it's pretty cool. As a rookie, Phil Niekro played with a 43 YO Warren Spahn (born 1921). In his last season, he played with 21 YO rookie Tom Glavine (born 1966). #s 1, 3, and 4 in franchise wins.
   52. Batman Posted: May 17, 2018 at 05:18 PM (#5674535)
In the Minoso division, Minoso (1925)-Baines-Jon Garland/Mark Buehrle (1979) beat Paige-Minoso-Baines by a year.

Bartolo Colon is six years older than Baines's youngest teammates, but he's the only one who's still active.
   53. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 17, 2018 at 06:03 PM (#5674594)
Paul Waner played with Babe Adams (born 1882) and Tommy Brown (born 1927).
May 29, 1926
Aug 15, 1944

I knew the rosters were chaotic in 1943-1945 but wow, the 1944 Dodgers used 8 teenagers and four 40+ year olds. Tommy Brown was 16 and started at shortstop the last two months.
   54. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 17, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5674607)
Satchel Paige (1906) and Harold Baines (1959).


Harold himself will get you from Minnie Minoso (b. 1925) to Jon Garland (b. 1979), which would beat that record at 54 years.

Edit: Coke to Batman.
   55. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 17, 2018 at 06:28 PM (#5674610)
I have updated Howie Menckel's ultimate Minoso-free link from the past to the present.

Jake Beckley (born 1867)
-> teammate of Babe Adams
-> teammate of Paul Waner
-> teammate of Warren Spahn
-> teammate of Ed Kranepool
-> teammate of Jesse Orosco
-> teammate of at least two active players - Adrian Beltre and Oliver Perez
   56. BDC Posted: May 17, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5674695)
Tommy John's 47 looks imposing. I have been trying all kinds of long-career players, determined to get more than 47, but nobody's close. I had hopes with Charlie Grimm, who was a teammate of Nap Lajoie and Phil Cavaretta, but that's only 42 years apart (1874-1916).

   57. eric Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:07 PM (#5674723)
(although I believe that's still the record for career length (Waner started in 1926 and Tug lasted until 1984)


If you allow pitched against, then as noted in a recent Jim Kaat thread, Kaat faced both Ted Williams and Darryl Strawberry, to go from 1939 - 1999. (Only 44 years' difference in ages, 1918 and 1962.)
   58. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5674736)
Kaat faced both Ted Williams and Darryl Strawberry

and the only pitcher to face Babe ruth and Mantle was...?
   59. eric Posted: May 17, 2018 at 10:39 PM (#5674745)
and the only pitcher to face Babe ruth and Mantle was...?

My first guess was Bobo Newsom. But, despite being active and in the correct league at the correct times, he never faced Mantle. Therefore I had to cheat and look it up and I can say I'd never heard of the guy before. Or that trivia question--given there was only 16 years between the two I would have guessed there would have been more than one pitcher.
   60. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:03 PM (#5674749)
Kaat faced both Ted Williams and Darryl Strawberry


I'm looking to see how that works out for Nolan Ryan. In 1966 he pitched only 3 innings, so checking all his batters faced is easy. In those 3 innings, he faced:

Eddie Mathews
Hank Aaron
Joe Torre
Joe Morgan
Rusty Staub

Anyway, the oldest player he faced in 1966 was Eddie Mathews, who began his MLB career in 1952. In 1993, he faced Jim Thome, who played until 2012.
   61. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:13 PM (#5674754)
and the only pitcher to face Babe ruth and Mantle was...?

My first guess was Bobo Newsom. But, despite being active and in the correct league at the correct times, he never faced Mantle. Therefore I had to cheat and look it up and I can say I'd never heard of the guy before. Or that trivia question--given there was only 16 years between the two I would have guessed there would have been more than one pitcher.

it's actually a fairly well-known trivia question (or, at least, it used to be--i'm older than dirt)
Al Benton is the answer and Babe was 1-10 against him and the Mick was 0-2
   62. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 17, 2018 at 11:40 PM (#5674765)
Back to Ryan. Ryan faced:

Barry Bonds- #1 on career HR list
Hank Aaron- #2
Willie Mays- #5
Ken Griffey Jr. - #6
Jim Thome - #8
Sammy Sosa - #9
Frank Robinson- #10
Mark McGwire - #11
Harmon Killebrew - #12
Rafael Palmeiro - #13
Reggie Jackson - #14


11 of the top 14. The only ones missing are ARod, Ruth, and Pujols. of the rest of the 27 member 500 HR club, he faced: Schmidt, McCovey, Frank Thomas, Mathews, Banks, Sheffield, and Murray.


   63. Rally Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5675134)
11 of the top 14. The only ones missing are ARod, Ruth, and Pujols. of the rest of the 27 member 500 HR club, he faced: Schmidt, McCovey, Frank Thomas, Mathews, Banks, Sheffield, and Murray.


If he had lasted one more year he probably would have faced A-Rod, since they would have been in the same division.

   64. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5675151)
If he had lasted one more year he probably would have faced A-Rod, since they would have been in the same division.


ARod played only 17 games in 1994, and non against the Rangers.
   65. Batman Posted: May 18, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5675161)
Typical A-Rod. Born a year too late just so he wouldn't have to face Nolan Ryan.

Ryan's last start was against the Mariners, and it didn't go well.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Don Malcolm
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogRobinson Cano Reportedly Suspended for PED
(226 - 11:58am, May 20)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogHow gambling can help make baseball America's pastime again
(99 - 11:56am, May 20)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogWeekend OMNICHATTER for May 19-20, 2018
(144 - 11:52am, May 20)
Last: Spahn Insane

NewsblogOT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)
(4533 - 11:36am, May 20)
Last: PJ Martinez

Hall of Merit2019 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(116 - 11:30am, May 20)
Last: Bleed the Freak

NewsblogOTP 2018 May 14: Political leadership, fans needed to bring baseball to Portland: Guest opinion
(1259 - 10:47am, May 20)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (April - June 2018)
(2029 - 10:43am, May 20)
Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

NewsblogFortnite Addiction Is Becoming a Problem for Major League Basebal
(84 - 12:29am, May 20)
Last: GGIAS (aka Poster Nutbag)

NewsblogTaking Back the Ballparks - Colorado Rockies
(39 - 7:15pm, May 19)
Last: Omineca Greg

Gonfalon CubsHalf full or half empty?
(66 - 5:40pm, May 19)
Last: Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington

NewsblogOT: Winter Soccer Thread
(1976 - 4:43pm, May 19)
Last: AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther

NewsblogIllini rely on student who geeks out on baseball analytics
(2 - 2:51pm, May 19)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogA face that could launch a thousand OMNICHATTER! for May 18, 2018
(105 - 11:47am, May 19)
Last: Perry

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 5-18-2018
(119 - 7:43pm, May 18)
Last: RMc's Unenviable Situation

NewsblogThe Official Mets Fan Self-Immolation Thread
(829 - 7:25pm, May 18)
Last: Howie Menckel

Page rendered in 0.3678 seconds
47 querie(s) executed