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Monday, June 10, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 6-10-2019

New York Sun, June 10, 1919:

Frank Talcott, Yale’s great pitcher of 1918, says he is through with professional baseball. Talcott some time ago broke into the big leagues with Detroit. He remained with the Tigers just long enough to decide that he had no chance of making an early start in an American League game, so he asked Hughey Jennings for his release and led himself to the Philadelphia Nationals…But there too he was delegated to pitching divers no hit, no run games in the bull pen in addition to grooving the ball for the batters in practice.
...
Talcott could get a job with any minor league club, but he cannot see himself pitching in the lesser company, because playing ball in the minors is not profitable work.

Tough to blame him. A guy with a degree from Yale could probably do better than bumping around the South Dakota League or the Western Canada League for a few years.

Talcott never appeared in a professional game, but it looks like he spent some time in 1918 pitching for the Paterson Silk Sox against the Lincoln Giants, which is pretty cool. The 1918 Lincoln Giants featured Smokey Joe Williams, who’s in the Hall of Fame, and Bill Pettus, who would be a completely reasonable selection for the Hall. I’m not necessarily advocating for Pettus, but you could do worse. They have done worse. Recently.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: June 10, 2019 at 10:25 AM | 68 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: June 10, 2019 at 10:28 AM (#5849920)
If you just glance at today's Birthday Team, you wouldn't necessarily come away impressed. There aren't any real stars; Ken Singleton is the best player on the roster by a mile. That said, apart from a shaky infield, they've got good players everywhere. Not terrible.

C: Johnny Edwards (14.8 WAR)
1B: Scott Ullger (-0.5 WAR)
2B: 1980s Braves Randy Johnson (2.6 WAR)
3B: Jap Barbeau (0.9 WAR)
SS: Pokey Reese (6.3 WAR)
LF: Frank Demaree (17.1 WAR)
CF: Mike Kreevich (15.0 WAR)
RF: Ken Singleton (41.8 WAR)

SP: Floyd Bannister (26.3 WAR)
SP: Danny MacFayden (22.4 WAR)
SP: Rick Camp (12.1 WAR)
SP: Garland Braxton (9.5 WAR)
SP: Francisco Barrios (8.4 WAR)
RP: Elias Sosa (9.0 WAR)
RP/A Real Person: Al Alburquerque (5.1 WAR)

Manager/Negro Leagues outfielder who might be (probably is) better than Kreevich: Vic Harris
General Manager: Gerry Hunsicker
Broadcaster/Spare Outfielder: Jack Graney (14.2 WAR)
Broadcaster: Chuck Thompson
Negro Leagues pitcher with a fun name and a horrible story: Ankleball Moss
Fun Name: Lefty Wolf
   2. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 10:38 AM (#5849925)
Pokey Reese, at 2B, is on the short list of most impressive defenders I've ever seen. Had he hit well enough to be a starter, he could easily have won many Gold Gloves. Most other winners around that time - Luis Castillo, Fernando Vina, older Roberto Alomar, Bret Boone - were nowhere near as good.

And yet there must be Pokey Reeses that were even worse hitters, guys that couldn't crack AA, guys that had Hall of Fame fielding ability that we were never able to see.

I think about this a lot and it makes me very sad.
   3. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: June 10, 2019 at 10:45 AM (#5849928)
2--Adam Everett made it to the majors after slugging .365 at Triple A at age 24. Just one guy I get it but I think if you searched you would find more like this
   4. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 10, 2019 at 10:47 AM (#5849929)
he was delegated to pitching divers no hit, no run games in the bull pen


What the hell does this mean?
   5. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 10:50 AM (#5849932)
Does it mean he didn't get into any games? That he was just practicing?
   6. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 10, 2019 at 10:52 AM (#5849935)
I mean, yes, in context it makes sense. But that is some odd phrasing, even for 100 years ago.
   7. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:00 AM (#5849943)
It's sort of a century-old version of the common BTF joke, "I've got more WAR than the Orioles' ace does!"

Also, when did people stop using the word "divers?" I associate it Francis Bacon's New Atlantis, published 1626. It must have already been archaic in 1919.
   8. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5849944)
If you removed either "divers" or "no hit, no run" it would make sense, but I can't really figure out how they work back to back.
   9. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:02 AM (#5849945)
Jap Barbeau

A member of the Nig Clarke/Harlond Clift wing of the Hall of Fame?
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:04 AM (#5849948)

A member of the Nig Clarke/Harlond Clift wing of the Hall of Fame?


You mean the all-slur team? With Kike Hernandez, and Dummy Hoy?
   11. Nasty Nate Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:07 AM (#5849949)
Until just now, I thought "divers" was just the old way of spelling "diverse"

*

What does this part mean: "He remained with the Tigers just long enough to decide that he had no chance of making an early start in an American League game, so he asked Hughey Jennings for his release and led himself to the Philadelphia Nationals…" ?

Does that mean he knew he wasn't good enough to be a SP in the American League, but thought he could in the National League?
   12. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:17 AM (#5849956)
I think it's just supposed to be dry humor. Like, "he made various hitless appearances with the team, but they were all in the bullpen."
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:20 AM (#5849960)
Until just now, I thought "divers" was just the old way of spelling "diverse"


They basically mean the same thing.
   14. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:21 AM (#5849961)
OK, so divers means numerous or multiple, so read that way the phrase makes sense. Never heard of that usage before.
   15. Itchy Row Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5849965)
What does this part mean: "He remained with the Tigers just long enough to decide that he had no chance of making an early start in an American League game, so he asked Hughey Jennings for his release and led himself to the Philadelphia Nationals…" ?

Does that mean he knew he wasn't good enough to be a SP in the American League, but thought he could in the National League?
The intro left out a sentence that clarifies that part-
"Jack Coombs (Phillies manager) looked mighty indigent in the pitching department, and Talcott figured that with the Phillies he would get his chance."

So it wasn't saying the NL was bad- just that the Phillies were. Coombs lost his job after starting 18-44 and the next year he pitched in a couple of games for Hughie Jennings and the Tigers.
   16. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5849970)

OK, so divers means numerous or multiple, so read that way the phrase makes sense. Never heard of that usage before.


Same here.

I thought divers was referring to a sinkerball-type pitch (which, by the way, would be an excellent name for such a pitch).

   17. Nasty Nate Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:34 AM (#5849978)
The intro left out a sentence that clarifies that part-
"Jack Coombs (Phillies manager) looked mighty indigent in the pitching department, and Talcott figured that with the Phillies he would get his chance."

So it wasn't saying the NL was bad- just that the Phillies were. Coombs lost his job after starting 18-44 and the next year he pitched in a couple of games for Hughie Jennings and the Tigers.
Thanks.
   18. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:35 AM (#5849979)
It's times like this that we really miss BDC
   19. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:43 AM (#5849989)
It's times like this that we really miss BDC


And times like the Dick Allen thread we really miss Harvey.

   20. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:45 AM (#5849992)
BASEBALL TRIVIA TIME:

Can you name the current leaders in any of these counting categories for the 2010s (so far)?

18 categories - 16 different leaders. Two guys lead in two categories each.

When giving a guess, please list both the player's name and the category you think he leads in. Just saying a player's name will not be responded to.

G -
PA -
AB -
H -
2B -
3B -
HR -
R -
RBI -
BB -
IBB -
K -
SB -
CS -
SH -
SF -
HBP -
GIDP -
   21. Itchy Row Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:49 AM (#5849998)
Edwin Encarnacion for HR? He just hit his 400th career HR.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:50 AM (#5849999)
HR - Albert Pujols?

   23. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5850000)
H - Nick Markakis.

   24. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:52 AM (#5850001)
#21:
DING!

Edwin Encarnaction's 321 homers in this decade just beat out Nelson Cruz for the most by anyone.

#22:
Nope. Albert Pujols is not the leader .... in that category. But he is on the leaderboard somewhere.
   25. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:52 AM (#5850002)
Nah, GIDP - Pujols
   26. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5850007)
Votto for walks?
   27. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5850008)
#23:
Nope. Again, the guy you named is on the leaderboard, but not in that category. He's 2nd in hits, 44 behind the leader.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5850009)
SB - Dee Gordon?

   29. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5850011)
OK, then Markakis for ABs?

   30. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:55 AM (#5850012)
SB - Dee Gordon

K - Chris Davis
   31. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:55 AM (#5850013)
#25:
DING! Pujols's 206 GIDP tops everyone.

#26
DING! Votto's 998 walks reign supreme. By over a hundred.

   32. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5850016)
And Trout for IBB. If I'm right about Pujols, this guess helps explain it.
   33. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5850017)
AB - Adam Jones
PA - Adam Jones

Although these might not be the same person
   34. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5850018)
GIDP - Pujols?

Bah too late
   35. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:58 AM (#5850021)
#28:
Nope. Good guess. Dee Gordon IS on the leaderboard, but not for SB. That should be a hint.

#29:
Nope. Markasis is 2nd in AB. But if you think about it, you should be able to figure out what category he leads in ,then.

#30:
Chris Davis for Ks? DING! 1,521. Only one person is over 1,400. Dee Gordon - see reply to #28.
   36. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: June 10, 2019 at 11:59 AM (#5850024)
Let's guess Miguel Cabrera for RBIs. He's fallen off the pace somewhat, but maybe his early lead holds up.
   37. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:02 PM (#5850031)
#32:
Trout for IBB? Nope. He ranks .. 8th in IBB. But he does lead in SLG & OPS - but I'm not asking about rate stats. Trout leads in none of the counting stats.

#33:
Adam Jones for AB? DING! 5,663
Adams Jones for PA? Nope. 3rd place. (The G, PA & AB leaders are all different guys - but they all are in the top three for PA & G. The games leader drew too many walks to be in the top three for AB, though).

   38. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:03 PM (#5850035)
#36.
Nope. The RBI leader has already been mentioned, but not with this stat. If you think about the names mentioned so far, this one shouldn't be too hard.

Cabrera IS on the leaderboard, by the way, just not with RBIs. (He's 2nd in RBIs, just seven behind the leader, so it's a good guess).
   39. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:04 PM (#5850037)
Markakis for PAs.

Pujols for RBIs.

Gordon for CSs.

   40. Itchy Row Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5850038)
Encarnacion for RBIs too
   41. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:06 PM (#5850039)
2B - also Joey Votto
3B - is this where Dee Gordon comes in?
   42. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:08 PM (#5850044)
HBP - Anthony Rizzo
I know he hasn't been around for the whole decade, but that's the only person I can remember being noted recently for HBP
   43. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5850048)
#39:
Markakis for PA? DING! 6,332. He'd lead in AB, but Adam Jones never draws walks. Someone earlier guessed Markasis for G -- currently he's in 2nd place (12 behind the leader), BUT he'll be in first place by the end of the month; maybe in 2 weeks. That's a hint about who leads in games, by the way.

Pujols for RBIs? Nope. Pujols is only listed in one category and you've guys have gotten that one. The guy who leads in RBIs does lead in another category - and has been successfully guessed in that category, but it isn't Pujols.

Dee Gordon for CS? DING! 95. Three more than anyone else (the guy w/ 92 CS is also the SH leader for the decade). But Dee Gordon's 320 steals are two behind the decade's leader.

7 leaders named. 11 to name.
   44. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5850054)
$40:
DING! 916 RBI.

Encarcion is one of two guys who leads in multiple categories: HR & RBI. And you guys have named both. (The other leader in multiple categories? Hasn't even been mentioned yet. And he's a big name. And the categories he leads in aren't fringe ones).

#41:
Votto? Nope. He only leads in walks. He's fifth in doubles (the four guys ahead all lead in something - including Markasis).

Dee Gordon? Someone figured out the only category he leads in (CS). He's 8th in triples. He only leads in CS.

#42
Rizzo? DING! 129 HBP. He's one of two starters from the 2016 world champion Cubs on the leaderboard.


That's half of the answers youz have gotten so far - so here's the leaderboard is it stands:

G -
PA - Nick Markasis, 6,312. SoSH
AB - Adam Jones, 5,663. Crispix
H -
2B -
3B -
HR - Edwin Encarnaction, 321. Itchy Row
R -
RBI - Edwin Encarnaction, 916. Itchy Row
BB - Joey Votto, 998. Ziggy
IBB -
K - Chris Davis, 1,521. Crispix
SB -
CS - Dee Gordon, 95, SoSH
SH -
SF -
HBP - Anthony Rizzo, 129. Crispix
GIDP - Albert Pujols, 206. Ziggy
   45. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5850055)
Derek Dietrich is a crazy HBP guy, but a part-time player. Same with Brandon Guyer.
   46. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:17 PM (#5850058)
SH - I'm gonna go with ... Bumgarner!

Actually no, Greinke.
   47. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:18 PM (#5850063)
H - Andrew McCutchen
2B - Andrew McCutchen

That's my last idea
   48. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:22 PM (#5850068)
3B - Curtis Granderson
   49. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5850069)
#46:
Nope. The SH leader is a position player. He also has 251 steals and 92 CS -- and 145 GIDP. So he's high in steals & GIDP.

#47
Wow - McCutchen IS on the leaderboard, but not for H or 2B.

That said, the guy who leads in H is also the guy who leads in 2B - the other two-time leader. (And, like McCutchen, he joined a new team this year). But no one has mentioned him yet, which I find rather surprising.
   50. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:25 PM (#5850071)
#48
Nope. But it is an outfielder. But he's never played in the AL. All four teams the triples leader had played on have been in the NL.
   51. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5850077)
Robinson Cano for H / 2B?
   52. Tyhand7 Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5850079)
3B- Dexter Fowler
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5850080)
H, 2B Longoria?
   54. Tyhand7 Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:30 PM (#5850081)
IBB - Miggy
   55. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:33 PM (#5850087)
Something came up so I might have to leave in a little bit. Time for hints:

G - Already named in this thread. I noted that even though this guy has a 12 game lead over second place, he'll likely lose the lead by the end of the month. That's because he's injured and out for the season.

H: No one mentioned this guy yet? He's kind of a big name. Everyone must be distracted by his big suspension last year.

2B: Same as the hits leader

3B: Longtime NL OF - 4 different teams, maybe most notably with the Cubs

R: I still think of him as a Ranger, even though he hasn't played there in years.

IBB: Aging slugger mentioned as a leader for other stats, but this is the category he leads in.

SB: He and Dee Gordon are way ahead of everyone else. He's the one who isn't Dee Gordon with over 300 steals this decade. He's only played 4 games this year.

SH: Infielder who spent his entire career with one team. Has steals & GIDP as well.

SF: Longtime Tampa player now on San Fran.
   56. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5850088)
Post 51:
Cano? DING! 1636 hits & 348 doubles.

Post 52:
Fowler? DING! 71 triples.

Post 53:
Longoria IS a leader, but not for hits or doubles. See post #55.

Post 54:
Cabrera for IBB? DING!

Just games, runs, SB, SH & SF to go.
   57. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5850090)
Reading all these dugout intros if I could view like a limited number of things in the past as they were actually happening seeing a major league game from like 1907 would totally be on the list even though it would be 5'6" mostly racist white guys as fans.
   58. Tyhand7 Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5850092)
SB - Marte
   59. Tyhand7 Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5850097)
SB - Hamilton. Didnt read the above well enough
   60. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5850098)
I know the sac hit one, Andrus.
   61. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5850100)
Post 58?
Nope.

Gotta go. Here are the other answers:

Games: Andrew McCutchn - 1,452
Runs - Ian Kinsler, 872
SB: Rajaj Davis - 322
SH - Elvis Andrus, 88
SF: Evan Longoria - 67

Sorry no full leaderboard. Things have come up that I have to do right now.
   62. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: June 10, 2019 at 01:40 PM (#5850157)
Wow, Rajai Davis! And in the decade he had only 4 seasons with more than 400 PA.
   63. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 10, 2019 at 05:18 PM (#5850244)
So, no 1922 starting pitcher rankings today; I'm still working on them after taking the time during the week to make a couple more adjustments to the system. I have, however, discovered something weird from 1922, which is that apparently we don't know when Urban Shocker gave up one (exactly one) of his unearned runs. Retrosheet doesn't have full play-by-play recreations of all the games from that year, and as a result, Shocker's ER totals are left blank in a few boxscores; Baseball Reference takes a blank and turns it into a -1, which is how I noticed this in the first place (albeit not until the second -1 appeared, and probably only because Shocker is near the top of the rankings in '22 so I was watching him more closely. I haven't seen any come up for any other pitchers since then, and I hadn't noticed any in the previous seasons I've run, but who knows how reliable that is.)

Going through all of Shocker's starts in 1922, I found 33 runs that are not known to be earned or unearned, and Shocker's game logs come up 32 earned runs short of his official total (as listed both on B-R and MLB.com). So I'm arbitrarily assigning the one unearned run to September 8, a game in which Shocker gave up 8 runs and the Browns made 3 errors. If that throws things off... well, they'll still be off by less than they would if you assume all 33 of those runs are unearned.
   64. Hank Gillette Posted: June 10, 2019 at 08:29 PM (#5850283)
It's times like this that we really miss BDC


Did something happen to BDC that I did not hear about?
   65. PreservedFish Posted: June 10, 2019 at 09:08 PM (#5850291)
He quit the website immediately when OT:P was closed.
   66. puck Posted: June 10, 2019 at 09:44 PM (#5850297)
3B: Longtime NL OF - 4 different teams, maybe most notably with the Cubs


Really? Almost half his career PA's and 2/3 of his triples are with the Rockies.
   67. Traderdave Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:08 PM (#5850674)
He quit the website immediately when OT:P was closed.


Reason enough to bring back OTP. BDC was a consistently excellent poster, one of the best regulars here, and any subject, baseball or other.
   68. SoSH U at work Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:14 PM (#5850678)
Reason enough to bring back OTP. BDC was a consistently excellent poster, one of the best regulars here, and any subject, baseball or other.


No kidding.

I knew he was gone, I just hadn't heard why.

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