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Monday, June 18, 2012

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 6-18-2012

Toledo News-Bee, June 18, 1912:

Twenty-four strikeouts in a nine-inning game was the remarkable record of Dick Redding of a New York semi-professional team Monday. His opponents mostly were players from the United States league. Redding allowed three hits and issued two passes, but had two strikes on each of these five batters.

I was surprised to learn that Redding isn’t in the Hall of Fame.  He had some pretty phenomenal seasons, including a 0.70 ERA in 153.2 IP in 1917.

The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:33 AM | 90 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dick redding, dugout, history, negro leagues

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   1. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:34 AM (#4159732)
...and the daily United States League update, today from the Pittsburgh Press:
A move is underway, it is said, to "cut the alleged U.S. league to four clubs." Inasmuch as there are but two teams in the so-called circuit at present, it is not quite plain how the "cut" will be accomplished, unless each of the present outfits is easily divided.
   2. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:39 AM (#4159734)
How bad is today's Birthday Team? The ace starter is a 23-year-old rookie with 14 career starts and an ERA+ of 92. They're going to need some heroics from Brock, Galarraga, and Alomar.

C: Sandy Alomar Jr.
1B: Andres Galarraga
2B: Jimmy Pofahl
3B: Jim Tipper
SS: Marty Berghammer
LF: Lou Brock
CF: Chris Coghlan
RF: Charlie Ganzel

SP: Matt Moore
SP: Taylor Phillips
SP: Varney Anderson
SP: Jeremy Powell
SP: Paul Brown
RP: Felix Heredia

Play By Play: Russ Hodges
Failed Phenom: Ron Necciai
   3. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 08:16 AM (#4159758)
ryan braun hit two homers against the twins on saturday and had hit a home the previous game. after the game the brewers manager was asked if he was surprised that teams continue to pitch to braun given the state of the brewers lineup. here is his response:

No. Not at all. I think the guys that have been behind him are good. There's no way I'm going to pitch around Ryan all the time to get to Ramirez. No way. You could use that argument last year with Prince. Really, Casey had an off year last year and they still pitched to Prince. I know that everybody thinks it's easy to pitch around people; it is not easy to pitch around people. Every time you do it, you worry about that next guy coming up there, and everytime you put people on base they've got a chance to score, and you turn the lineup over faster. It's not an automatic

thought this was interesting
   4. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 09:34 AM (#4159783)
every team looks good when it is playing well but the nl central better get its head out of its backside or the reds are going to blow this thing open and there won't be time to recover.

the reds have no obvious lineup holes, decent starters and a killer bullpen. that's a solid recipe for winning any division, especially the nl central

on a local level the brewers played 15 games against bad/mediocre teams and went 7-8. it ain't the death knell on the season but the grim reaper is pounding on the door

   5. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: June 18, 2012 at 10:03 AM (#4159798)
Up at THT, I have a new article up: The state of the AL Central, going over each team. (Fun fact: since April 24, the Royals have the best record in the division).

Also, I got a historical item noting that today is the 40th anniversary of Mustache Day. It's also the anniversary of that famous Billy Martin-Reggie Jackson confrontation on national TV, Don Suttton's 300th win, Dodgers sign Pedro Martinez, Joe Medwick gets beaned, the Red Sox score 17 in one inning, and the White Sox blow a 12-run lead.
   6. zack Posted: June 18, 2012 at 10:14 AM (#4159811)
A move is underway, it is said, to "cut the alleged U.S. league to four clubs." Inasmuch as there are but two teams in the so-called circuit at present, it is not quite plain how the "cut" will be accomplished, unless each of the present outfits is easily divided.


I think whoever wrote these US league snippets would fit in well at BBTF. He clearly takes his haterade with ice, and often.
   7. Guapo Posted: June 18, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4159820)
Since yesterday was Father's Day...

Is there a list somewhere of all the current major leaguers whose fathers also played in the majors? I was thinking about this and it seems like there are more than there used to be...
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 10:37 AM (#4159823)

Is there a list somewhere of all the current major leaguers whose fathers also played in the majors? I was thinking about this and it seems like there are more than there used to be...


This is a list of all-time fathers and sons in baseball, not just active ones.

Among active players:
Mike Adams
Peter Bourjos
Sean Burroughs
Drew Butera
Michael Brantley
Robinson Cano
Ike Davis
Ivan DeJesus
Tim Dillard
Kyle Drabek
Shelly Duncan
Prince Fielder
Dee Gordon
Jason Grilli
Tony Gwynn
Jerry and Scott Hairston
Adam and Andy LaRoche
Steve Lombardozzi
John Mayberry
Darren Oliver
Tony Pena
Austin Romine
James Russell
Justin Sellers
Brandon Snyder
Nick Swisher
Steve Tolleson
Scott Van Slyke
Will Venable
Ryan Webb
Eric Young

May be missing a guy or two and some of those guys are "active", but are in the minors.
   9. Guapo Posted: June 18, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4159826)
Thanks!

   10. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: June 18, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4159831)
I had no idea Mike Adams, Peter Bourjos, Drew Butera, Michael Brantley, Robinson Cano, Ike Davis, Tim Dillard, Jason Grilli, Darren Oliver, Austin Romine, James Russell, Justin Sellers, Brandon Snyder, Will Venable, or Ryan Webb were the sons of major leaguers.

Actually I had never heard of Tim Dillard, Justin Sellers, Brandon Snyder or Ryan Webb. Or Steve Tolleson, though I can guess who his father is.
   11. Guapo Posted: June 18, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4159871)
One correction to AG#1F's list- the Mike Adams who is currently active doesn't have a father who played MLB. The Mike Adams who played in the 1970s for Minnesota had a dad who played in MLB.

Here's the best father-son game I can come up with:

P Darren Oliver
C Drew Butera
1B Prince Fielder
2B Ivan DeJesus Jr.
3B Steve Tolleson
SS Dee Gordon
LF Eric Young Jr.
CF Michael Brantley
RF Scott Van Slyke

P Tom Gordon
C Sal Butera
1B Cecil Fielder
2B Eric Young Sr.
3B Wayne Tolleson
SS Ivan DeJesus Sr.
LF Mickey Brantley
CF Andy Van Slyke
RF Bob Oliver

   12. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 11:37 AM (#4159872)
IIRC, the Dodgers this year fielded a lineup that had Gwynn, DeJesus, Sellers, Gordon, and Van Slyke together, all the sons of MLBers.

I know the Giants once had like four players score on the same play, that were all sons of MLBers. Bonds and Niekro were two of them, can't remember the rest.
   13. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 11:38 AM (#4159873)
Game(s) of the day (yesterday): Royals 5, Cardinals 3 (15); Twins 5, Brewers 4 (15). I'm only going to recap the first of the two, but it's worth at least posting the link to the second, because it's the fifth-best game of the year so far. Which tells you how good a game has to be to beat it.

The scoring didn't open until the second, but the first inning was considerably more fateful. Alex Gordon drew a leadoff walk from St. Louis starter Adam Wainwright in the top of the inning, but didn't score; in the bottom, Carlos Beltran singled with one out. After that play, Royals second baseman Chris Getz was removed from the game with an injury, and Yuniesky Betancourt took over the spot.

In the second, Kansas City started the inning with consecutive singles from Mike Moustakas, Alcides Escobar, and Humberto Quintero, scoring one run and putting runners on the corners with nobody out. Jarrod Dyson grounded back to the mound, and Escobar was caught in a rundown between third and home; he was tagged out, but the runners advanced to second and third behind him. Unfortunately for the Royals, the task of bringing the runner home from third fell to starting pitcher Luis Mendoza, who struck out; Gordon then grounded out to end the inning.

Returning to his primary function, Mendoza retired the Cards in order in both the second and third innings; Wainwright did the same to the Royals in the third and fourth. St. Louis put a pair of runners on in the bottom of the fourth, courtesy of a single by Matt Holliday and a walk to Allen Craig, but left them on the corners at the end of the inning. Wainwright worked around a walk to Gordon in the top of the fifth, and in the bottom half, the Cards tried again. They started the inning with a single by Tyler Greene and a double by Todd Cruz; the opportunity was wasted when they called for a squeeze with Wainwright at the plate, and Greene was caught between third and home when the Cardinal starter was presented with an un-buntable pitch (courtesy of the MLB game recap). Wainwright then struck out, and Daniel Descalso lined out to end the inning.

The Royals put two runners on base in the sixth, but Wainwright ended the inning by prompting Escobar to hit into a double play. After Beltran led off the bottom half with a groundout, Holliday and Craig decided they'd rather not count on their teammates to drive them in this time, instead hitting back-to-back homers to put the Cards on top 2-1. Mendoza's day ended when he was pulled for a pinch hitter in the top of the seventh, and Wainwright left the same way in the bottom of the inning; both pinch hitters were retired, and neither team scored. Mitchell Boggs worked a perfect eighth for the Cardinals; Jose Mijares came in to pitch the bottom of the inning and gave up a leadoff double to Descalso. After Descalso moved to third when Beltran struck out (the catcher had to throw to first to complete the out), Holliday was intentionally walked and removed for a pinch runner (the game recap says he was injured; how he injured himself while being IBB'd, I'm not sure). Craig then hit into a double play to end the inning.

That brought on closer Jason Motte for the ninth. He fanned Moustakas on four pitches, then Escobar on three. Quintero was lifted for pinch hitter Billy Butler, who quickly went down 0-2... and then hit a home run to tie the game. Greg Holland worked around a single by Adron Chambers to throw a scoreless ninth and send the game to extras. Motte issued a walk to Gordon, but kept KC off the board in the tenth, and Tim Collins was perfect in the bottom of the inning. The eleventh saw Victor Marte take the mound for the Cards; he quickly gave up a pair of singles to Jeff Francoeur and Moustakas. Escobar grounded into a fielder's choice at home, and Collins, who was forced to hit for himself because the Royals had already exhausted their bench (thanks to the 13-man pitching staff) bunted into a force at third. Marte was then pulled for Mark Rzepczynski, who walked Dyson to load the bases before retiring Brayan Pena to end the inning.

Collins was perfect again in the eleventh, and the Cards inserted Fernando Salas to pitch the twelfth (why they burned Rzepczynski for one out at this point in the game, I don't know). Salas walked Gordon, but got Betancourt to hit into a double play. Eric Hosmer then singled, stole second and took third on a throwing error by the Cardinal catcher (can you tell that it was Yadier Molina's day off?) Francoeur drew a walk, and after the fans who were still in attendance were treated for mass cardiac arrest, Moustakas ended the inning by grounding out. Collins threw his third consecutive perfect frame in the twelfth, and then was lifted for pinch-hitter Bruce Chen with one out in the thirteenth. Chen, of course, singled, but was left on.

With Collins finally out of the game in favor of Nathan Adcock, the Cardinals finally put another runner on base, as Shane Robinson led off the home half of the thirteenth with a single. Pinch hitter Kyle Lohse then successfully executed a sac bunt (take that, Tim Collins), and Beltran was intentionally walked behind the lead runner. That brought Rafael Furcal to the plate in Holliday's old spot (the Cards had some truly impressive lineup machinations during this game - the pitcher's spot was in 4 different places), and he grounded into a double play to end the inning.

Eduardo Sanchez came on to pitch for St. Louis in the fourteenth. He immediately walked Gordon, which brought Betancourt to the plate. To this point in the game, Yuni was 0/5 with a GDP. This time, however, he laced a go-ahead double to left. Hosmer flied out and Francoeur struck out; Sanchez then intentionally passed back-to-back Royals to load the bases. Normally, I'd hate this strategy, but since it brought Adcock, an AL relief pitcher, to the plate, it makes more sense than usual. Adcock struck out on three pitches, sending the game to the bottom of the fourteenth with Kansas City up by one. Jonathan Broxton entered to nail it down. He walked Craig, but got David Freese to fly out. Chambers then singled up the middle, moving Craig to third, but Greene flied out at an insufficient depth to bring the run home. The Cards then sent up their last position player, Molina, to hit for his own backup. On a 2-1 count, he singled home the tying run. Robinson struck out to leave the potential winning run at second.

Sanchez stayed in for the fifteenth. Dyson started the inning with a bunt single, moved to second on a sacrifice, and stayed there when Gordon flied out. That brought Betancourt back to the plate, and since one run hadn't been enough in the last inning, he provided two, courtesy of a home run. Broxton took advantage of his second chance, working a tame 1-2-3 bottom of the fifteenth (helped by the fact that St. Louis's best pinch hitting option to lead off the inning was Joe Kelly, a pitcher who was making his fourth career plate appearance).

What a game. Plenty of scoring opportunities early and late, a busted squeeze play, back-to-back homers to take a lead, a game-tying homer with 2 outs and 2 strikes in the ninth, 14 runners left on base in extra innings, a game-tying rally in the bottom of the fourteenth, and a final go-ahead homer with two outs in the fifteenth. (Also, there was a team record tied in this game. The events that composed that record are all mentioned in the recap, but not particularly highlighted. Can anyone find it?)

Given the ingredients, it shouldn't come as a huge shock that this grades out as the best game of the year so far - it's actually the highest-scoring game in my database to date, although I'm aware of at least one game from later in 2011 that will beat it. Still, it's got a terrific shot at the crown for this year, and will almost certainly be in the top 5.
   14. JJ1986 Posted: June 18, 2012 at 11:42 AM (#4159879)
Bonds and Niekro were two of them, can't remember the rest.


Alou, probably.
   15. JJ1986 Posted: June 18, 2012 at 11:46 AM (#4159881)
Here's the best father-son game I can come up with:


I'd put the Gwynns on instead of the Brantleys.
   16. just plain joe Posted: June 18, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4159936)
He walked Craig, but got David Freese to fly out. Chambers then singled up the middle, moving Craig to third, but Greene flied out at an insufficient depth to bring the run home


Actually that fly probably could have scored Craig from third but he had brain locked and failed to tag up on the play. He was the most relieved person in the place when Molina came through with the base hit a couple of minutes later.

The real puzzler, to me anyway, was why Chambers didn't try to steal second base at some point in this sequence and get the winning run into scoring position. Broxton is pretty deliberate to the plate and Pena has had trouble all year throwing runners out trying to steal. I don't know that Chambers would have been able to score from second on Molina's hit but it would have been worth a try.
   17. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4159945)
the reds have no obvious lineup holes, decent starters and a killer bullpen. that's a solid recipe for winning any division, especially the nl central


It also doesn't hurt having your best player hitting .500/.574/.833 over the last 3.5 weeks.

Oh, and Scott Rolen is back tonight, so, the Reds do have a lineup hole. If Dusty sits Todd Frazier (their 2nd best hitter) to play the remains of Scott Rolen and Ryan Ludwick.....
   18. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4159964)
Game of the day (last year): Angels 4, Mets 3. Chris Capuano worked a perfect first for the Mets, and Joel Pineiro matched him for the Angels. In the second, Howie Kendrick doubled with one out, moved to third on a flyout, and scored when Peter Bourjos reached on an error to put the Angels ahead, but New York quickly evened the score when Daniel Murphy led off with a triple and scored on Angel Pagan's single. The excitement didn't end there; Jason Bay hit a grounder to short that could have been a double play, but Kendrick threw away the relay. Pagan was forced out, but Bay ended the play at second. He didn't advance from there, however, and the tie was maintained... at least until the top of the third. Maicer Izturis led off with a single, moved up on a sac bunt, took third on a hit by Torii Hunter, and scored on Vernon Wells's single. Kendrick came up with runners on the corners and a chance to break the game open, but ended the inning by hitting into a double play. The Mets came back once more in the bottom half, when Josh Turner walked, moved to second on Carlos Beltran's single, and scored on Pagan's second RBI hit in two innings.

The next two innings were marginally calmer. Capuano worked around a leadoff walk in the top of the fourth; Pineiro allowed the first two Mets to reach in the home half on a double and an HBP, but escaped the jam on a pair of whiffs sandwiched around a forceout. The fifth passed with only a walk and a steal in the bottom half, bringing Capuano back on to pitch the top of the sixth. Hunter led off with a single, but Wells struck out, and Hunter was then caught stealing second with Kendrick at the plate. Having apparently worked out of a minor jam, Capuano then created a major one, yielding consecutive singles to Kendrick and Mark Trumbo, followed by an RBI double to Bourjos. An intentional walk to Jeff Mathis brought the pitcher's spot up, and Pineiro was oddly allowed to hit for himself with the bases loaded. Predictably, he struck out. Pineiro did work a scoreless sixth, giving up only a single to pinch-hitter Lucas Duda. Bobby Parnell entered for the Mets in the seventh, and quickly allowed the Angels to double their lead, thanks to an Izturis double and a Hunter single.

The Mets went in order in the seventh, with Pineiro being pulled mid-inning; Parnell set the Angels down consecutively in the eighth as well. Scott Downs entered for LA in the bottom of the inning, and after retiring Pagan, gave up a single to Jason Bay and an RBI double to Ronny Paulino. A groundout moved pinch runner Jason Pridie to third, but pinch hitter Scott Hairston struck out to leave the tying run 90 feet away. Manny Acosta worked a flawless ninth for New York, leaving them with one more chance to make up the one-run deficit against closer Jordan Walden.

It started well, as Jose Reyes drew a walk and stole second. Turner walked behind him, putting the winning run on base with nobody out and bringing the Mets' win expectancy to an even 50%. But the situation devolved quickly from there, as Walden sequentially struck out Beltran, Murhpy, and Pagan on a total of 13 pitches to end the game.

Back-and-forth early, multiple serious threats late when down a run. A fine game overall, even if I do feel like I should be typing this recap in a lighter font because it pales in comparison to yesterday's game.
   19. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4159967)
The real puzzler, to me anyway, was why Chambers didn't try to steal second base at some point in this sequence and get the winning run into scoring position. Broxton is pretty deliberate to the plate and Pena has had trouble all year throwing runners out trying to steal. I don't know that Chambers would have been able to score from second on Molina's hit but it would have been worth a try.

Maybe he could've moved to third on the flyout, had Craig tagged, and scored from there.

On the other hand, if Chambers is on second, they might walk Molina and pitch to Shane Robinson, who's a slightly less imposing hitter.
   20. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4160009)
OK, carrying on last week's theme of things that people are kind of on pace to do this year... Ryan Braun is currently posting a higher OPS+ than he had in last year's MVP season. Since the Brewers are bad this year, he's got virtually no chance of repeating. There have been 19 times since the advent of the modern MVP vote in 1931 that a player has won an MVP, then had a better year the next season and not repeated (with "better year" being measured for this purpose by WAR for pitchers and oWAR for position players). Three of them I'll leave out for asterisk-type reasons: Mike Schmidt's 1982 oWAR was higher than in 1981 by all of .1, due to the strike, and Chuck Klein (1932-33) and Don Mattingly (1985-86) had better years after their MVP seasons, but were voted most valuable position player in those years by the writers, finishing second to a pitcher.

Who are the other 16 players to improve on the work in their MVP season and not repeat?

(Hint-like substances: It's happened in both leagues in the same year twice, and one player has done it twice, so there are only 15 distinct players on the list.)
   21. JJ1986 Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4160016)
Mo Vaughn 95-96?
   22. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4160019)
Mo Vaughn 95-96?

Yes. (Also strike-affected, but not to the same extent as Schmidt was - the difference between the years was bigger and the strike difference was 18 games rather than 50.)
   23. The Robby Hammock District (Dan Lee) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4160021)
The Australian Football League had its Hall of Fame induction ceremony last week.

I mention this because they do something really cool with their HoF - they have two levels of inductees. In addition to their "standard" Hall of Famers, they also have something called "Legend Status", which is bestowed annually to one player who's already been inducted.

I really, really like that idea. Would love to see it imported.
   24. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4160024)
Barry Bonds 1991?
   25. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4160025)
Who are the other 16 players to improve on the work in their MVP season and not repeat?


Cal Ripken, 1983-84
   26. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4160027)
Ripken, yes - he had the biggest fall in the MVP voting, going from #1 to #27 despite having a better year.

Bonds, no, contrary to my expectations.
   27. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4160028)
Ted Williams 1947?
   28. JJ1986 Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4160030)
How about Albert Pujols 05-06?
   29. Nasty Nate Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4160031)
I'm guessing one or more of the Sosa-Bonds-Mcgwire group at the turn of the millenium qualifies.

   30. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4160033)
eric

i think it's a bit harsh to term the brewers bad when they are six games under .500. unless bad is shorthand for under .500

they are a .500 club and will likely finish with between 78-85 wins by season's end
   31. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4160036)
Does Larkin in 1995/1996 join Vaughn as the two from the same season? My recollection is he had a strong follow up year.

Miggy 2002?
J-Roll 2007?
Pendleton 1992?
Dawson 1988?
   32. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4160040)
how about Barry Larkin '95 MVP, 30-30 season in '96

edit: Jose, Great minds think alike.
   33. JJ1986 Posted: June 18, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4160045)
I would have sworn that Greg Maddux won the MVP in '95. Somehow, he finished behind Dante Bichette in the voting.
   34. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4160049)
Williams, no; Pujols no; Sosa and Bonds, no (McGwire never won an MVP). Tejada, Rollins, and Pendleton, no.

Larkin does indeed form the matched set with Vaughn, and Dawson is also correct.

Harveys, fair enough. I was using "bad" as shorthand for "unlikely to reach the playoffs;" for the purposes of predicting MVP voting, they're similar enough terms.
   35. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4160056)
It seems to me that there are three categories of players who would be likely to be on this list;

1. Players who probably didn't deserve the award on pure numbers but won it for more "intangible" reasons (the list in 31). These guys could have had improved years the following year.

2. Players who won it but then came up short the next year because someone had a ridiculous season like Jeff Kent in 2000.

3. Sort of the companions to #1, players who won it then lost it the following year because someone not as deserving won it (Bonds in 1991).

Two more guesses
Jeff Kent 2000
George Bell 1987

   36. JJ1986 Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4160065)
How about Mickey Mantle, 1960? (Though I have no idea if he even won the award that year. I know he was better in '61 and didn't win it.)
   37. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4160066)
Your description of the sets of players is good - I would add in players whose teams became far worse around them and missed the playoffs (which captures Larkin '96 and Ripken '84, among others), but that could be included among one or more of the categories you already listed.

Neither Kent nor Bell is correct, however.
   38. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4160070)
How about Mickey Mantle, 1960?

Maris won the '60 MVP as well. Mantle in 1957 would have been a perfect fit for the list - WAR prefers it to his '56 Triple Crown season, despite it appearing quite a bit less impressive superficially. But he won the MVP that year. The other chance he had was after '62, but he was hurt for most of '63.
   39. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4160075)
Ryne Sandberg? Giambi?

   40. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4160080)
Gibson and/or McLain, 1968 - 69. I was thinking they were both very good that follow-up year but, of course, looked far worse in raw stats because of the higher offense. Assuming I'm remembering correctly that they were both MVPs in '68.
   41. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4160084)
Ryne Sandberg? Giambi?

Giambi yes, Sandberg no.

Gibson and/or McLain, 1968 - 69.

Nice. McLain is correct; Gibson was still awesome in '69, but '68 was better.

There's one more pitcher on the list.
   42. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4160085)
clemente was way better in 1967 than he was in '66

   43. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4160086)
and berra in 1955. or was it 1956? anyway, yogi had won back to back and he didn't win the third straight time because of mantle i think
   44. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4160087)
There's one more pitcher on the list.


Clemens '86?
   45. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4160088)
clemente was way better in 1967 than he was in '66

He was indeed - a full 2-win improvement per oWAR, the biggest jump on the list.
   46. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4160090)
and joe in 1948. he shouldn't have win in '47 but the vote was split.

man i think i am out of ideas
   47. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4160091)
and berra in 1955. or was it 1956?

It was both - that is, he won the MVP in '55 and was better in '56, losing to Mantle's Triple Crown. Berra is actually the double representative, as he was also better in '52 than in his '51 MVP season. (In fact, you can argue that Yogi's three MVP years were his worst from 1950-56.)

Clemens '86?

Yup. 10 down, 6 to go.
   48. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4160092)
How about Kirk Gibson, 88-89? I seem to remember him being hurt a lot in '88 for some reason...

edit: nope, he missed way more time in '89. Nevermind.
   49. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4160093)
and joe in 1948. he shouldn't have win in '47 but the vote was split.

Right again.
   50. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4160094)
Some random guesses;

Fox '59
Wills '62 (not sure what kind of WAR credit 104 SB got him)

And I'm assuming guys like Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, etc...who were competing for awards where repeats were not permitted are not being counted here.
   51. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4160095)
How about Kirk Gibson, 88-89? I seem to remember him being hurt a lot in '88 for some reason...

He was hurt quite a bit more after '88 - only 71 games in '89.
   52. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4160098)
Dale Murphy, 1983-84.
   53. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4160100)
Yup. 10 down, 6 to go.


Oh hell, just dangle it out there like a carrot...

Joe Gordon '42?
Marty Marion '43? (or '44, one of the war years, not WAR)
Keith Hernandez '79?
   54. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4160101)
And I'm assuming guys like Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, etc...who were competing for awards where repeats were not permitted are not being counted here.

Correct - modern rules only, 1931-present.

Fox was better in '57 than in '59, but worse in '60. And 104 steals are worth quite a bit when you're only caught 13 times - Wills had a substantially higher OPS+ in '63 than in '62, but his basestealing dropped off to 40/19 and he missed almost 30 games.
   55. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4160103)
Guerrero 2004?
   56. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4160104)
Murphy, Hernandez, and Marion were all pretty close, but none of them pulled it off. Gordon fell off relatively sharply in '43. Vlad was still terrific in '05, but missed 15 more games.
   57. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4160105)
Damn, I liked the Gordon guess.
   58. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4160106)
this came up in a different conversation but bob elliott drew like 50 more walks in the season following his mvp so maybe his value was a bit more?
   59. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4160110)
Frank Robinson, '61 and '62?
   60. BDC Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4160111)
Steve Garvey was my first guess, and I believe correct, though columns of WAR numbers make my head spin :)
   61. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4160114)
here's a crazy guess. reggie in 1974. what the hey
   62. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4160116)
this came up in a different conversation but bob elliott drew like 50 more walks in the season following his mvp so maybe his value was a bit more?

Indeed it was. Since his MVP was in '47, he and DiMaggio make the second pair by year. (Edit: Reggie is incorrect, though.)

Frank Robinson, '61 and '62?

Also yes.

Steve Garvey was my first guess, and I believe correct

You believe correct correctly. Two left.
   63. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4160119)
did Will Clark win an MVP in '87 or '89? If so, how about him, in '88 or '90? :-)
   64. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4160120)
did Will Clark win an MVP in '87 or '89?

He did not. Dawson in '87, Mitchell in '89.
   65. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4160125)
geez, how about Juan Gonzalez and his two unearned MVP's. Seems like he could have been more valuable the year after each by oWAR, but, not as many RBI so no MVP. Oh, Ivan Rodriguez? Same reasons..
   66. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4160130)
geez, how about Juan Gonzalez and his two unearned MVP's. Seems like he could have been more valuable the year after each by oWAR, but, not as many RBI so no MVP. Oh, Ivan Rodriguez? Same reasons..

Gonzalez, no. Pudge was close - nearly matched his '99 oWAR in 2000 despite playing only 91 games. Came up a bit short though.
   67. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4160136)
How about Charlie Hustle. Pete Rose was incredibly consistent, and his '73 wasn't tremendous, so....
   68. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4160151)
How about Charlie Hustle. Pete Rose was incredibly consistent, and his '73 wasn't tremendous, so....

Interestingly, WAR actually thinks '73 was Rose's best year. oWAR doesn't, but it does prefer it to '74.

The two remaining players both won their MVPs pre-expansion.
   69. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4160152)
I didn't know Robinson Cano's father played in the major leagues either, but there's probably a pretty good chance if you're from San Pedro de Macoris. Jose Cano's only major league win was a complete game in his last MLB appearance, which I would guess is rare. His only loss was in his first appearance, a month earlier, against Greg Maddux.
   70. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4160157)
The two remaining players both won their MVPs pre-expansion.


Say Hey Kid? He was awesome every year, so, I could see his oWAR being higher the year after one of his two MVPs.

   71. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4160163)
Campanella?
   72. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4160168)
yogi again? 1952?
   73. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4160171)
Mays, yes; his '55 is a hair ahead of his '54. Both years were awesome, of course.

Campanella, no; he jumped wildly back and forth between good years and bad years, and won his three MVPs in his good years.
   74. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4160173)
yogi again? 1952?

Already gave you credit for both Yogis - '52 is also correct, though.
   75. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4160174)
eric

oh. whoops
   76. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4160185)
ok. last guess for me.... Charlie Gehringer, mvp in '37, known as the mechanical man, so you know he was consistent, and Jimmie Foxx had the monster '38. I'm even going to go check that one now.

edit: nope. I give up.

edit, edit: one more! Hank Greenberg? I don't even know if he won an MVP, but, the writers have always loved them some RBI.
   77. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4160187)
ok. last guess for me.... Charlie Gehringer, mvp in '37, known as the mechanical man, so you know he was consistent, and Jimmie Foxx had the monster '38. I'm even going to go check that one now.

Gehringer plays a role in the correct answer, but he's not the correct answer.
   78. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4160198)
Did I overthink myself earlier? Gehrig won in '36 didn't he? Is that the Gehringer connection?
   79. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4160204)
Did I overthink myself earlier? Gehrig won in '36 didn't he? Is that the Gehringer connection?

Nope. Gehrig is sort of connected to the correct answer as well; it's an award that either he or Gehringer easily could have won, and neither did.
   80. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:40 PM (#4160208)
found it on b-ref,so, I won't tell. would have never come up with him
   81. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:43 PM (#4160211)
So, MVP in '36? Yankees won the pennant, right? But Gehrig didn't win. DiMaggio's been mentioned. Hmm ... Frankie Crosetti?
   82. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4160216)
Okay, I think everything in my #81 was wrong, except the Yankees did win the pennant in '36. I went ahead and looked it up, too.
   83. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4160218)
eric

i am pretty sure i know but i will hold off on volunteering an answer

and yes, agree with your sentiment on those guys being better mvp options
   84. SoSH U at work Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:48 PM (#4160221)
Nevermind.
   85. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 03:59 PM (#4160237)
i am pretty sure i know but i will hold off on volunteering an answer

You can go ahead - we're about 60 posts and 2 hours in, so I won't complain too much if you finish off the question.
   86. Sweatpants Posted: June 18, 2012 at 04:14 PM (#4160261)
Mickey Cochrane 1934?
   87. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: June 18, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4160270)
Mickey Cochrane 1934?

Indeed.
   88. Guapo Posted: June 18, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4160291)
Clemens verdict to be released at 4:30 BTF time...
   89. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 18, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4160323)
Not guilty on all counts (according to T.J. Quinn's Twitter feed). Interesting to see how much better he does than Bonds in HOF voting. (link: https://twitter.com/#!/TJQuinnESPN)
   90. Walt Davis Posted: June 18, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4160365)
Steve Dillard's son is in the majors (and has been for a while) ... time for my annual Steve Dillard tribute.

From Aug 3-17, 1979, Steve Dillard hit 471/517/843. 24 for 51 with 5 HR, 6 BB, 17 R and 16 RBI. He even tossed in two RoE and a SF.

Now, Dillard was a career 243/295/343 hitter (73 OPS+) in 1115 PA. If you take out that 2 week period, he hit 231/278/316. Those two weeks added 44 points to his career OPS and 12 points to his OPS+. More importantly, they guaranteed I would remember him for the rest of my life.

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