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Monday, July 15, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 7-15-2019

Washington Herald, July 15, 1919:

When Steve Evans came up to the major leagues with the Cardinals some years ago he was a first baseman. Like most young ball players, Steve thought pretty well of his own ability. He was quite satisfied that he would make good as a first-sacker in the big show—and then one day he saw Fred Tenney...[Evans] looked at him in silence for perhaps five minutes, and then, walking to the dugout, he threw down his first baseman’s mitt.

“I thought I was a first baseman,” he said, with a shake of his head, “but I’m not. That bird out there is, though from now on I’m going to devote my time to the outfield.”

It’s a nice story and maybe it’s even true, but the Cardinals were never going to move the best first baseman in the league (Ed Konetchy) to make room for a rookie.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: July 15, 2019 at 10:48 AM | 58 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: July 15, 2019 at 10:51 AM (#5861916)
Not much pitching on today's Birthday Team. Byrd was an excellent pitcher for quite a long time, but it falls off quickly after him.

C: Bubbles Hargrave (16.2 WAR)
1B: Donn Clendenon (19.9 WAR)
2B: Dan McGann (34.3 WAR)
3B: Mike Shannon (7.8 WAR)
SS: Wilson Delgado (0.7 WAR)
LF: John Clapp (19.1 WAR)
CF: Chris Denorfia (10.5 WAR)
RF: John Kerins (6.1 WAR)

SP: Bill Byrd (Negro Leagues pitcher)
SP: James Baldwin (9.3 WAR)
SP: Red Oldham (6.4 WAR)
SP: Pete Dowling (5.9 WAR)
SP: George Derby (4.9 WAR)
RP: Enrique Romo (6.6 WAR)

Toolsy athlete, hit an absolutely massive home run once, wasn't much of a ballplayer though: Reggie Abercrombie
Fun names: Jung Bong, Gene Leek
Not that one: Jack Robinson
Prospect flameout: Ryan Wagner (-0.3 WAR)
Writer/Maury's dad: Shirley Povich
   2. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 15, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5861926)
James Baldwin is noteworthy as one of the prime drivers behind DIPS theory, or at least the pitcher who Voros used as his example when he first presented it. Baldwin got off to a blistering start in 2000, going 10-1 with a 3.11 ERA over his first 13 starts (this was when a 3.11 ERA was really good; it was better than any non-Pedro pitcher had in the AL that year).

A lot of us on rsbb were convinced that he had turned a corner, but Voros pointed out that it was mostly that his hits allowed had fallen through the floor, and that was unlikely to continue, since his research showed that pitchers had little control over BABIP. Sure enough, Baldwin quickly went back to being the same pitcher he'd always been.
   3. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 15, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5861927)
I don't have a subscription to BR, so I was wondering if someone could look something up for me. What is the record for hitting the most triples in a season without hitting a home run, and who did it? And if the answer is a 19th Century player, what is the post-1900 record? Thanks.
   4. Sweatpants Posted: July 15, 2019 at 11:25 AM (#5861931)
It's a tie between Willie Keeler and Bill Kuehne, with 19. The post-1900 record is 17 by Eddie Collins.
   5. Itchy Row Posted: July 15, 2019 at 11:25 AM (#5861932)
Willie Keeler (1897) and Bill Kuehne (1885) had 19 triples and no HR. The post-1900 record is 17 by Eddie Collins in 1916. Lance Johnson has the post-WW II record with 14 in 1993. Johnson also had a 13-3B/0-HR season in 1991.
   6. Sweatpants Posted: July 15, 2019 at 11:38 AM (#5861934)
I'd never heard of Kuehne before. The thing that jumped out at me about him was his ratio of triples to doubles. He had more triples than doubles in each of his first four seasons, and after six seasons and 2683 PA he was at 92 3B and 86 2B. That got me wondering who the most PA while maintaing a 3B/2B ratio over 1. For finished careers, it was 1910s outfielder Tom Long, who did it in 1614 PA.
   7. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 15, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5861936)
With yesterday's Cubs win and Reds loss, the last place team in the NL Central is no longer closer to first than the second place teams in every other division. But the Cubs play the Reds today, so that can change back quickly.
   8. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 11:58 AM (#5861940)
7--Pretty obvious that the Cubs and Reds are the two best teams in the division right now.
   9. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:06 PM (#5861943)
BASEBALL TRIVIA TIME:

Let's go back another decade.

Below are 18 offensive categories. Can you name the leader for any of those categories during the 1950s? (Please note that one category is only partial - we don't have SF for the entire decade).

All guesses should include the player & the stat you think he led in.

One player makes the leaderboard three times.
Five guys make the leaderboard twice each.
Five other guys make the leaderboard once each.

Any guesses?

G -
PA -
AB -
H -
2B -
3B -
HR -
R -
RBI -
BB -
IBB -
K -
SB -
CS -
GIDP -
SF -
SH -
HBP -
   10. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:08 PM (#5861944)
Thank you, Sweatpants, and Itchy Row.
   11. JJ1986 Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:12 PM (#5861947)
Stan Musial - 2B and 3B?
   12. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:13 PM (#5861948)
HR - Duke Snider.
   13. stanmvp48 Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:14 PM (#5861949)
Ted Williams walks and intentional walks
Mantle Home runs
   14. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5861950)
Post #11:

Stan Musial for doubles? DING! One of two categories he leads in.
Triples? Nope. He's in 6th place. (Looks at the leaderboard). Huh - there's a TIE for triples leader. Didn't notice that.

Remember that I said one guy appears in the leaderboard three times? Well, he appears four times - he's one of the two guys tied for triples.

   15. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5861951)
Hits--Ashburn
   16. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:17 PM (#5861952)
Post #12:
Snider for HR? DING! 326.

Post #13:
Teddy Ballgame? Nope. He doesn't appear on the leaderboard at all in the 1950s.
Mantle for HR? Nope. He's on the leaderboard, but not for HR.

Oh, and I forgot to mention in Post #14 - Musial leads in another category aside from doubles.

   17. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:18 PM (#5861953)
Post #15:
Ashburn - hits? DING! 1,875. You might want to spend more time on that guy, because you haven't closed him out yet.

   18. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:19 PM (#5861954)
Triples--Ashburn
   19. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5861955)
Post #18:
Triples - Ashburn? DING! He's one of two Hall of Famers tied at 82 triples for the decade. Ashburn is the guy I realized co-led in triples back in post #14. Hits & triples are two of the four categories he leads in. So what might the other two, be?

   20. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:22 PM (#5861956)
BB: Eddie Yost
   21. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:22 PM (#5861957)
SB--Mays?
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:22 PM (#5861958)
How about ABs and PAs to round out Ashburn (assuming Master was correct)?

   23. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:23 PM (#5861960)
FWIW I was just in a baseball trivia contest locally baseball pre-expansion was my focus area
   24. SoSH U at work Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:23 PM (#5861961)
Mantle for Walks and IBBs?
   25. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5861962)
Snider for RBIs as well
   26. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5861965)
HBP--I think this is the easiest one and didn't notice this was a category until just now. Minoso. Dude just got rocked every season. Led the majors almost every season
   27. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5861966)
Post #20:
Yost for BB? DING! THat's his only time on the leaderboard.

Post #21:
SB - Mays? DING! Improbably, that's the only category Mays leads in.

Post #22:
Ashburn for PA? DING!
Ashburn for QB? Nope. This is not one of the decades where those sync up. (Actually, the guy Ashburn is tied with at triples is the AB leader. Ashburn drew a lot of walks. The other guy? Nope. But both had lengthy consecutive games played streaks in the 1950s).

Post #24:
Mantle for BB & IWW? Nope & nope. Yost led for BB. Wrong Hall of Famer for IBB.

Post #25:
Snider for RBI? DING! That's the 2nd and last category he led in.

Almost half of them done.
   28. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5861967)
I would say Rizzuto for sac bunts because he led the majors almost every season but his career ended mid-50's, right? So...................Ashburn??
   29. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:30 PM (#5861968)
Post #26:
Minoso for HBP? DING! 149. That's one of two categories he leads in.

   30. SoSH U at work Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:31 PM (#5861969)
Ashburn for Games.

   31. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:32 PM (#5861970)
Hilarious. My team thinks I am super intense on a problem because I am sitting here with my eyes closed trying to remember this #### that I studied prior to the trivia contest.
   32. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:32 PM (#5861972)
Post #28:
Ashburn for SH? Nah. You're overthinking Ashburn's last stat. It's something a lot more basic.

SH will only be guessed if I give out hits. It's a non-Hall of Famer. But, like Rizzuto, a middle infielder in the AL. He played on one pennant winner - and he led the league in batting average that year. His career was 1949-59, so well-timed for this question.
   33. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5861975)
Minoso for HBP? DING! 149. That's one of two categories he leads in.

and CS probably
   34. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5861976)
Post #30:
DING! Ashburn led in games, and that closes him out.

You guys have gotten Musial and Minoso for one stat each - and each is on the leaderboard a 2nd time. You've guessed Mantle here and there - but not for the right stats. One Hall of Famer who appears on the list hasn't even been mentioned yet.
   35. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5861978)
Post #33:
Minoso for CS? DING! 106. (Vs. 167 SB. Not great).

Here's where things stand so far:

G - Richie Asbhurn, 1523.SoSH
PA - Richie Asbhurn, 6965. SoSH
AB -
H - Richie Ashburn, 1875. Master of the Horse
2B - Stan Musial, 356. JJ1986
3B (tie) -
3B (tie) - Richie Asburn, 82. Master of the Horse
HR - Duke Snider, 326. vortex
R -
RBI - Duke Snider, 1031. jmac66
BB - Ned Yost, 1185. Master of the Horse
IBB -
K -
SB - Willie Mays, 179. jmac66
CS - Minnie Minoso, 106. jmac66
GIDP -
SF -
SH -
HBP - Minnie Minoso, 149. Master of the Horse
   36. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5861979)
SH--Avila
   37. JJ1986 Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:37 PM (#5861980)
Mantle for SF?
   38. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5861981)
Post #36:
Avila? DING!

Post #37:
Mantle for SF? Nope. The SF leader isn't a Hall of Famer (but he does have the exact same name as a Hall of Famer. And, improbably, that Hall of Famer was the decade's SF leader in the 1990s). OK, that's probably too much of a clue, but how else ya ever gone guess this guy?

   39. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:40 PM (#5861982)
35--You mean Eddie Yost, not Ned Yost.
   40. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:40 PM (#5861983)
The SF leader isn't a Hall of Famer (but he does have the exact same name as a Hall of Famer. And, improbably, that Hall of Famer was the decade's SF leader in the 1990s). OK, that's probably too much of a clue, but how else ya ever gone guess this guy?
Why, that's gotta be Not That Frank Thomas.
   41. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5861984)
Yeah, Eddie Yost. Sorry about that.
   42. JJ1986 Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5861985)
The SF leader isn't a Hall of Famer (but he does have the exact same name as a Hall of Famer. And, improbably, that Hall of Famer was the decade's SF leader in the 1990s). OK, that's probably too much of a clue, but how else ya ever gone guess this guy?
That has to be Frank Thomas.
   43. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5861986)
Mantle for IBB and/or runs?

   44. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:43 PM (#5861988)
Post #40:
DING! Frank Thomas had 49 from the time MLB started tracking SF until the end of the decade.

Only stats left: AB, 3B (co-leader), R, IBB, K, GIDP.

Mantle leads two of them. Another Hall of Famer leads two others. Musial leads another. A non-HoF leads the other.
   45. Master of the Horse Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:45 PM (#5861990)
44-Thanks for putting stuff like this together. On your other ones I was like, I didn't study those decades. But this was perfect and glad to know I didn't lose everything immediately.
   46. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:45 PM (#5861991)
Post #43:
Mantle for runs? DING!

Mantle for IBB? Nope.

Half of Mantle done.

   47. JJ1986 Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:46 PM (#5861992)
Mantle for K? My grandfather always used to complain about how much he struck out compared to DiMaggio.
   48. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:47 PM (#5861993)
The non-Hall of Famer on the list won an AL MVP Award in the decade.

Aside from the remaining Musial category, the rest are all AL players.
   49. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:48 PM (#5861994)
Post #47:
DING! Mantle struck out the most.

AB, 3B, IBB, and GIDP are all that are left. Stan Musial led one of those four.
   50. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:52 PM (#5861996)
AB - Jackie Jensen? If not, then it's gotta be GIDP. Maybe?
   51. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:53 PM (#5861997)
Jackie Jensen!

Great guess! He's on the list! But he's not the AB leader.

The AB leader is a Hall of Fame AL second baseman.
   52. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:53 PM (#5861998)
OK, then Jensen for GIDP.
   53. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:55 PM (#5861999)
The non-Hall of Famer on the list won an AL MVP Award in the decade.

Jackie Jensen is an obvious possibility, but what could he have led--GIDP?
   54. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:57 PM (#5862000)
Post #52:
DING! Jensen for GIDP.

Musial in one category. The other two by an AL Hall of Fame second baseman. Genuinely surprised more people aren't trying to nail down Musial's last category. All that's left: AB, 3B, and IBB.

   55. Eddo Posted: July 15, 2019 at 12:57 PM (#5862002)
AB and 3B: Nellie Fox.
IBB: Musial.
   56. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: July 15, 2019 at 01:00 PM (#5862003)
Post #55
DING!
DING!
DING!

That clears out the board.

G - Richie Asbhurn, 1523.SoSH
PA - Richie Asbhurn, 6965. SoSH
AB - Nellie Fox, 6115. Eddo
H - Richie Ashburn, 1875. Master of the Horse
2B - Stan Musial, 356. JJ1986
3B (tie) - Nellie Fox, 82. Eddo
3B (tie) - Richie Asburn, 82. Master of the Horse
HR - Duke Snider, 326. vortex
R - Mickey Mantle, 994. Don August(us)
RBI - Duke Snider, 1031. jmac66
BB - Eddie Yost, 1185. Master of the Horse
IBB - Stan Musial, 193. Eddo
K - Mickey Mantle, 899. JJ1986
SB - Willie Mays, 179. jmac66
CS - Minnie Minoso, 106. jmac66
GIDP - Jackie Jensen, 169. Rapper's Delight
SF - Frank Thomas, 49 (incomplete). ELRoy Face
SH - Bobby Avila, 134. Master of the Horse
HBP - Minnie Minoso, 149. Master of the Horse
   57. stevegamer Posted: July 15, 2019 at 10:40 PM (#5862140)
1950's: the decade of the centerfielder for the list. 4 seems like a lot of CF's on the list, and that doesn't include Musial. Too bad I am never on when you post thaese, but I enjoy guessing nonetheless.
   58. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: July 16, 2019 at 12:02 AM (#5862154)
Musial didn't play much CF, except for 1 year. But still. In addition to the 4, there was also HOFer Larry Doby, and 2 very good but not HOFers Bill Bruton and Jimmy Piersall. And for fun, in 1956, the regular CFs for BAL and WAS were future HOF managers Dick Williams and Whitey Herzog.

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