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Monday, August 22, 2011

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 8-22-2011

AP, August 22, 1965:

San Francisco’s Juan Marichal slugged Los Angeles catcher John Roseboro over the head with a bat in the third inning of Sunday’s game, triggering a wild melee between both teams.

Before the battle ended, Marichal swung his bat at Roseboro’s head several times and the Dodger catcher, blood trickling from a cut over his left eyebrow, pumped a right hand that seemed to clip the Giants’ pitcher in the face.

Who’d have thought that ten years later, Marichal would be a Dodger?

Neutral Milk Dotel (Dan Lee) Posted: August 22, 2011 at 08:42 AM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, dugout, giants, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Neutral Milk Dotel (Dan Lee) Posted: August 22, 2011 at 08:54 AM (#3905781)
August 22 Birthday All-Stars:

C: Wally Schang, 1889
1B: Carl Yastrzemski, 1939
2B: Jose Arcia, 1943
3B: Paul Molitor, 1956
SS: Dud Lee, 1899
LF: Darrin Jackson, 1963
CF: Ned Hanlon, 1857
RF: Happy Felsch, 1891

SP: Howie Camnitz, 1881
SP: Randy Wolf, 1976
SP: Ray Burris, 1950
SP: Jeff Weaver, 1976
SP: Hipolito Pichardo, 1969
RP: Doug Bair, 1949
RP: Steve Kline, 1972

Son: Simon Lee, 2002
   2. Neutral Milk Dotel (Dan Lee) Posted: August 22, 2011 at 09:00 AM (#3905782)
Paul Molitor is 55?!?
   3. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 22, 2011 at 09:21 AM (#3905783)
Dud Lee's Facebook page doesn't have a single like...
   4. Tiboreau Posted: August 22, 2011 at 09:37 AM (#3905784)
After his MLB career Dud Lee (fun name) would go on to spend several years in the minors--including 10 years in the PCL, mostly with the Hollywood Stars, and 3 years in the American Association, two of the top 3 minor league organizations. He only hit .257 in the PCL, but I believe his reputation was that of the slick-fielding middle infielder (although someone w\ more knowledge & resources should probably verify that . . . ).
   5. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2011 at 09:53 AM (#3905787)
We need the full story. I hope someone will do right by Dud Lee.
   6. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 22, 2011 at 11:20 AM (#3905791)
Drew Stubbs isn't doing enough to justify all those strikeouts. 166 to lead the NL but a sorry .381 slugging percentage hitting in that ballpark. Geez oh Pete.

And Alex Gonzalez and his 106 strikeouts and 16 walks. A .259 OBP?!! He better be playing some amazing shortstop

Of course the Brewers are starting TWO guys with OBPs under .300. Excuse me while I go punch myself in the face
   7. AndrewJ Posted: August 22, 2011 at 11:31 AM (#3905795)
Horrible way for Marichal to celebrate my parents' first wedding anniversary.
   8. Honkie Kong Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:02 PM (#3905798)
And Alex Gonzalez and his 106 strikeouts and 16 walks. A .259 OBP?!! He better be playing some amazing shortstop


Combination of that, there being noone else to replace him, and the Braves have enough pitching and hitting around him ensures him a place. heck, he might re-signed. In fact, he almost certainly will.
Happens when you have 3 GB inducing starters.
   9. Honkie Kong Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:08 PM (#3905800)
A question I was musing when watching yday's Braves' game.

What is the highest number of strikeouts a relief pitcher has amassed in one season? ( A relief pitcher defined as one who has had no games started over that season ).
Kimbrel is at 101. Given his combination of high usage and ridiculous K rate, one would think he has a shot at that record.

The highest I found was Gossage in '77 with 151Ks ( in 133 IP ). Marmol in 2010 with 138 at an almost unbelievable 16K/9.
   10. Honkie Kong Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:11 PM (#3905802)
And more questions. What was the story with Gossage leading the league in saves in '75 with the White Sox ( at 212 ERA+ ), getting converted to a starter in '76, having a blah season, and then immediately being traded away to Pittsburgh?
   11. AJM Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:13 PM (#3905803)
Brad Lidge had 157 in 94 IP in 2004
   12. Dag Nabbit has the talking pillow Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:17 PM (#3905806)
New at THT: Anatomy of a failed GM about Jim Hendry.

Also, at THT Live, today is the silver anniversary of Mark McGwire's 1st big league game. Also features other items celebrating their anniversary, including: Piniella's last stand, 10,000th Cardinal homer, the most famous game Larry Mahnken ever worked, 7 RBIs for Pujols in 8-7 loss to Mets, the last position player to post a win on the mound, Gwynn finally hits a slam, DeBartolo makes provisional agreement to buy the Sox, minor leaguer dies from on-field collision, Ed Speizio ruins Bob Gibson perfecto, teammate saves Frank Robinson's life, Cubs sign Lou Brock, Yankee pitcher walks 16 in one game, and yes, the Marichal-Roseboro incident.
   13. Misirlou is bad, he's nationwide Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:18 PM (#3905807)
What is the highest number of strikeouts a relief pitcher has amassed in one season? ( A relief pitcher defined as one who has had no games started over that season ).
Kimbrel is at 101. Given his combination of high usage and ridiculous K rate, one would think he has a shot at that record.


Dick Radatz had 181 in 1964. According to PI, that's the record. He also has the third most ever with 162 in 1963.
   14. AJM Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:19 PM (#3905808)
Dick Radatz's first four years in the majors had 144, 162, 181, and 121.
   15. Misirlou is bad, he's nationwide Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:20 PM (#3905809)
And more questions. What was the story with Gossage leading the league in saves in '75 with the White Sox ( at 212 ERA+ ), getting converted to a starter in '76, having a blah season, and then immediately being traded away to Pittsburgh?


Paul F Richards
   16. Neutral Milk Dotel (Dan Lee) Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:24 PM (#3905811)
And more questions. What was the story with Gossage leading the league in saves in '75 with the White Sox ( at 212 ERA+ ), getting converted to a starter in '76, having a blah season, and then immediately being traded away to Pittsburgh?
According to Bill James in the Historical Abstract, Paul Richards was an old-school guy who thought his best pitchers should be starters, period. So Gossage and Terry Forster became starters.

The Sox traded them both after the '76 season because they needed hitting, and besides...it's just two crappy starting pitchers. Who needs 'em?
   17. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:24 PM (#3905812)
Horrible way for Marichal to celebrate my parents' first wedding anniversary.

Absolutely. Everybody knows that wood is the traditional gift for a fifth anniversary.
   18. AndrewJ Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:43 PM (#3905818)
Well played.
   19. Hack Wilson Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:50 PM (#3905820)
Its not Paul F Richards, but is Paul Rapier Richards.
   20. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:52 PM (#3905821)

The Sox traded them both after the '76 season because they needed hitting, and besides...it's just two crappy starting pitchers. Who needs 'em?


That's not quite the entire story. They also traded them because Gossage and Forster were both going to hit free agency after the 1977 season, and Bill Veeck didn't figure he was going to re-sign them. Veeck was pretty far-sighted in that way, seeing as how that was the very beginning of the free agent era.

And it worked. The Sox had a great season in 1977, going from 64 wins in 1976 all the way up to 90. Bob Lemon made Lerrin LaGrow (!) his closer, and they really didn't miss a beat.
   21. TVerik Posted: August 22, 2011 at 12:56 PM (#3905826)
My guy Curtis Granderson hit his 35th home run yesterday, an inside-the-parker.

Normally guys who hit the ITP homer usually have it as their third or fourth of the year, partially because they might be hit earlier in the year or they might be hit by plodders who don't have many HRs. When's the last time someone hit a home run that was their 35th or greater for that season that didn't leave the park?
   22. Dag Nabbit has the talking pillow Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:00 PM (#3905829)
Pittsburgh also wanted Gossage because their manager - Chuck Tanner - was the same man who made Gossage a reliever with the White Sox earlier in the 1970s.
   23. Misirlou is bad, he's nationwide Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:11 PM (#3905835)
That's not quite the entire story. They also traded them because Gossage and Forster were both going to hit free agency after the 1977 season, and Bill Veeck didn't figure he was going to re-sign them. Veeck was pretty far-sighted in that way, seeing as how that was the very beginning of the free agent era.


Except, the guy they got for Gossage and Forster, Richie Zisk, also became a free agent after the 1977 season.
   24. TVerik Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:15 PM (#3905839)
I've been a Yankee fan for about twenty seasons. I can't remember having more fun rooting for a player than I am for Granderson. I love triples - Curtis has 10. I love HRs, particularly inside-the-parkers. Curtis has 35 overall. He's got 24 steals. All this from a player who I didn't think was at all capable of that (though I think I had underestimated him previously), and from (by all accounts) one of the best guys in the game today. I thought he was a hell of a guy and a great interview back when he was with Detroit.
   25. Honkie Kong Posted: August 22, 2011 at 01:25 PM (#3905845)
Thanks all for the backstory on Gossage and the Strikeout question.
Never heard of Radatz before!
   26. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:03 PM (#3905870)

Normally guys who hit the ITP homer usually have it as their third or fourth of the year, partially because they might be hit earlier in the year or they might be hit by plodders who don't have many HRs. When's the last time someone hit a home run that was their 35th or greater for that season that didn't leave the park?


Jayson Stark tweeted that Sosa hit his 35th in 2001 as a ITP.
   27. you got a STEAGLES? you're gonna need a STEAGLES. Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:22 PM (#3905885)
ross gload, who apparently leads all of major league baseball in pinch hits this season, also has an OPS of .265 since july 3.

and even though he had a .304 batting average on july 2, his OPS at that point was only .655 due to his having only 2 doubles and 1 walk in 58 PAs.
   28. TVerik Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:48 PM (#3905904)
I just saw a replay of Granderson's ITPer. The second baseman, upon cutting off the ball, looked and took a step towards third before throwing home. Do you think he could have gotten Granderson at home if he had just caught, loaded up, and threw home?
   29. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 22, 2011 at 02:58 PM (#3905912)
Both Granderson and one of the players he was traded for (Austin Jackson) had pretty dramatic moments yesterday. I think that trade is working out pretty well for everyone involved. Kennedy has done great for Arizona, Scherzer and Jackson look OK for Detroit (and I'm high on Scherzer) and obviously Granderson has been great for New York.

The second baseman, upon cutting off the ball, looked and took a step towards third before throwing home. Do you think he could have gotten Granderson at home if he had just caught, loaded up, and threw home?


I don't think so. I think the better question is why Kubel didn't just throw home. It looked like he was shallow enough that he shouldn't have needed to use a cutoff man.
   30. just plain joe Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:19 PM (#3905936)
I don't think so. I think the better question is why Kubel didn't just throw home. It looked like he was shallow enough that he shouldn't have needed to use a cutoff man.


Kubel was shallow because he had chased the carom back toward the infield after it got past him. An even better question is why were Kubel and Revere both so close to the wall/scoreboard on that play. It had to be obvious that the ball was either going to hit high off the scoreboard (and thus rebound further than 10 feet into the outfield) or be a homerun, but both outfielders were virtually on the warning track. One of them has to be farther away from the wall on that play to try and hold the runner at third. In the event it didn't really matter since the next batter homered as well but just another example of poor fundamentals.
   31. Craig in MN Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:20 PM (#3905937)
Here's the replay. I thought it was a pretty good relay, and they didn't have a chance. A better throw from Kubel would have helped, but the relay itself was fine.
   32. gef the talking mongoose Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:25 PM (#3905941)
Never heard of Radatz before!


One of the great nicknames of his era -- "The Monster."
   33. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 22, 2011 at 03:28 PM (#3905948)
Drew Stubbs isn't doing enough to justify all those strikeouts. 166 to lead the NL but a sorry .381 slugging percentage hitting in that ballpark. Geez oh Pete.


Dave Sappelt will hit eventually, giving regular playing time, although he'll never be a consistent power threat. I'm sure the fact that he's 5'9" will work against him, but .375 OBP with +.800 OPS is not at all out of the question, and he can go get them in center.

Stubbs is doing more or less what I thought he'd do based on what I saw in the minors. His particular skill set - 20-HR range power, speed, good enough range to play CF - is always going to be overvalued, but he's a useful role player on a good team as long as you bat him lower in the order. He should absolutely NOT be batting leadoff.

-- MWE
   34. slothinator Posted: August 22, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#3905995)
Never heard of Radatz before!


He was pretty solid, until Goku stomped him and Vegeeta betrayed him.

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