Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, August 26, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 8-26-2019

New York Tribune, August 26, 1919:

Babe Ruth has been keeping the Tigers from gaining on the league-leading White Sox. The Boston demon must have his little bust every day, either breaking a fence or a ball game. Yesterday his two homers and single were responsible for the downfall of the Jennings tribe. [Yesterday] he walloped another homer, aiding the Red Sox to down the locals, 5 to 4.

The circuit clout of Ruth’s [yesterday] makes four the Bostonian has gotten in three days. His total for the season is twenty-three. He is now within two homers of the major league record made in 1899 by Buck Freeman, who knocked out twenty-five.

And the guy is only 24 years old! The Red Sox are going to have the best hitter in baseball for, like, the next decade and a half!

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 09:54 AM | 47 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 09:58 AM (#5874401)
A pretty good pitching staff on today's Birthday Team, but a so-so group of position players. Nix isn't a real left fielder, but if nobody stands out there, everything hit past the third baseman is going to be an inside-the-park home run.

C: Alex Trevino (7.9 WAR)
1B: Carlos Quintana (2.7 WAR)
2B: Sparky Adams (15.9 WAR)
3B: Morgan Ensberg (13.8 WAR)
SS: Elvis Andrus (31.4 WAR)
LF: Jayson Nix (1.9 WAR)
CF: Alex Sanchez (1.1 WAR)
RF: Gene Moore (13.8 WAR)

SP: David Price (39.4 WAR)
SP: Jesse Barnes (21.9 WAR)
SP: Chick Fraser (14.2 WAR)
SP: Alex Kellner (13.9 WAR)
SP: Frank Allen (7.5 WAR)
RP: Tom Poholsky (6.2 WAR)
RP: Ricky Bottalico (6.1 WAR)

Owner: Charles Prince
Designated Knuckleballer: Charlie Zink
Awful Umpire: Angel Hernandez
Fun names: George Barnicle, Elmer Klumpp, Ranger Suarez
   2. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 10:13 AM (#5874412)
In lieu of continuing the year-by-year writeups of the SP rankings, here's a quasi-trivia question regarding the rankings instead.

In the years from 1918-1929 (which is as far as I've gone to this point), 13 pitchers have held the #1 position in the rankings. Name them. (Entries sorted by days at #1, going from the day before the regular season starts to the last day of the World Series.)

848.
413.
293.
154.
132.
125.
105.
44.
11.
10.
9.
6.
4.
   3. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 10:54 AM (#5874431)
Johnson
Alexander
Vance?
Hoyt?
Rixey?
   4. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 10:55 AM (#5874432)
My favorite anagrams from today's Birthday Team:

Alex Trevino: Alien Vortex
Carlos Quintana: Carnal Sin Quota
David Price: Divide Crap
Chick Fraser: Fish Cracker
   5. PreservedFish Posted: August 26, 2019 at 10:56 AM (#5874434)
Well, how about Walter Johnson?
   6. Steve N Posted: August 26, 2019 at 10:58 AM (#5874438)
Grimes
Cicotte
   7. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 10:59 AM (#5874440)
848. Dazzy Vance
413. Walter Johnson
293.
154. Grover Cleveland Alexander
132.
125.
105.
44.
11.
10.
9.
6.
4.

Rixey has peaked at #2 so far (he's probably the best pitcher who hasn't reached #1). Hoyt has topped out at #4.
   8. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 10:59 AM (#5874441)
He probably didn't get anywhere near #1, but Duster Mails had a crazy-good couple of months in 1920.
   9. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5874443)
Cicotte and Grimes have also topped out at #2 to this point. (Cicotte was #2 for exactly one day in 1919; Johnson went wire-to-wire at #1 that year.)
   10. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5874444)
Pennock?
Urban Shocker?
Carl Mays?
   11. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:02 AM (#5874445)
Shawkey, Pennock
   12. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:02 AM (#5874446)
He probably didn't get anywhere near #1, but Duster Mails had a crazy-good couple of months in 1920.

He did not. One of his teammates, on the other hand...
   13. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:03 AM (#5874447)
Carl Hubbell? Are we too early for him?
   14. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:04 AM (#5874449)
848. Dazzy Vance
413. Walter Johnson
293.
154. Grover Cleveland Alexander
132.
125.
105.
44.
11. Urban Shocker
10. Carl Mays
9. Herb Pennock
6.
4.

Shawkey also topped out at #2. (He briefly reached #1 in the version of the rankings that used the original form of Game Score; Game Score 2 doesn't like him quite as much.)
   15. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:04 AM (#5874450)
One of his teammates, on the other hand...
Stan Coveleski? The only other guy on the 1920 Indians I can see getting to #1 is Joe Wood, and he was an outfielder by the time the rankings start.
   16. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:05 AM (#5874451)
Carl Hubbell? Are we too early for him?

By a couple of years, yes. He did get as high as #8 in 1929, which was his first full season.
   17. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:05 AM (#5874452)
848. Dazzy Vance
413. Walter Johnson
293.
154. Grover Cleveland Alexander
132. Stan Coveleski
125.
105.
44.
11. Urban Shocker
10. Carl Mays
9. Herb Pennock
6.
4.
   18. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:17 AM (#5874458)
As a side note - I was expecting Vance to do well in the rankings; I was not expecting him to do THIS well. Two things work in his favor: First, the mid-to-late '20s are short on all-time great starting pitchers (it's the gap between Johnson/Alexander and... one of the pitchers who hasn't been guessed yet). And second, Game Score (both versions) absolutely loves Dazzy Vance, largely because he essentially rediscovered the strikeout. (Vance famously led the NL in strikeouts in his first seven seasons - but he also led the NL in strikeout-to-walk ratio every year from 1924-1931, often by wide margins.)
   19. eric Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:26 AM (#5874459)
it's the gap between Johnson/Alexander and... one of the pitchers who hasn't been guessed yet


I'm gonna go out on a limb here...Grove?
   20. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5874460)
I'm gonna go out on a limb here...Grove?

Yup!

848. Dazzy Vance
413. Walter Johnson
293.
154. Grover Cleveland Alexander
132. Stan Coveleski
125.
105. Lefty Grove
44.
11. Urban Shocker
10. Carl Mays
9. Herb Pennock
6.
4.
   21. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:36 AM (#5874465)
All right, five pitchers left. In chronological order: One was a participant in one of the most famous regular-season pitching duels of all time. One pitched for the Black Sox (but not in the World Series that year). Two had one great peak season at the right time to take the top spot for a while. And the last one... I'm not sure I'd ever heard of this guy before starting this project, but he was a key member of a two-time pennant winner, and won back-to-back ERA titles.
   22. Mike Webber Posted: August 26, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5874470)
Joe Oeshger for regular season game guy,
Dickie Kerr is a black sox,
Dolph Luque as a one of the big season guys,
   23. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:00 PM (#5874471)
848. Dazzy Vance
413. Walter Johnson
293.
154. Grover Cleveland Alexander
132. Stan Coveleski
125. Dolf Luque
105. Lefty Grove
44.
11. Urban Shocker
10. Carl Mays
9. Herb Pennock
6.
4.

Kerr pitched in the World Series; the White Sox in question pitched for the team in '19, but missed the Series.

Oeschger peaked at #15 (and Cadore at #9 - if memory serves, Cadore reached #9 the day of the 26-inning tie). This pitcher's duel was a little earlier.
   24. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:02 PM (#5874472)
Ted Lyons?
Red Faber?
   25. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:04 PM (#5874475)
Joe Bush as the obscure guy? Slim Sallee?
   26. Mike Webber Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:06 PM (#5874476)
How about Fred Toney/Hippo Vaughan? for the big game duelers

   27. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:08 PM (#5874478)
Charlie Root?
   28. Mike Webber Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:08 PM (#5874479)
I'll throw Burleigh Grimes out there too, he was one of the HOF pitchers of that era
   29. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5874483)
I'm stuck on figuring out the obscure guy and racking my brain. Al Mamaux? edit to add: Art Nehf?
   30. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:18 PM (#5874485)
Remy Kremer
   31. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5874486)
Yeah, Kremer makes a ton of sense. Well done, assuming it's right. (I'm pretty sure it is.)
   32. Mike Webber Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5874488)
Dan- I'm with you, it's gotta be one of those Giants in that 1921-1922 era right? And John McGraw always had a lot of guys that had a couple of great years for him, maybe when they were older or something. Fred Toney who I guessed as a pitching duel guy was a Giant in that period. I think Slim Salee was too.
   33. Mike Webber Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:23 PM (#5874491)
Ah, one of the Pirate teams... That makes sense too. Had to be a team that was kind of over shadowed by their opponent, or a guy you think of as a Red or something that was finishing up in a different town.
   34. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:27 PM (#5874496)
Kremer hit the majors at 31, went 143-85 through 40. In the high minors in his 20s, he went 115-145. Go figure.
   35. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5874500)
848. Dazzy Vance
413. Walter Johnson
293. Red Faber
154. Grover Cleveland Alexander
132. Stan Coveleski
125. Dolf Luque
105. Lefty Grove
44.
11. Urban Shocker
10. Carl Mays
9. Herb Pennock
6. Ray Kremer
4. Hippo Vaughn

Excellent pull on Kremer, I had no familiarity with him at all.

Still missing the other one-big-year guy. His big year isn't as good or as well-known as Luque's; it just came during Vance's one down year in this stretch.
   36. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5874501)
Excellent pull on Kremer


He's a Pirate who shares my birthday. I do pretty well on those.
   37. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:40 PM (#5874502)
Not gonna lie, as a Cubs fan who had watched Hippo Vaughn sit at #2 for most of 1918 and all but one day of 1919, I was alarmingly excited to see him reach #1 for four days in May of 1920. His decline hit almost immediately after that, and he was out of the league just over a year later.

Bonus note on Kremer - he led the NL in wins in 1930, with an ERA of 5.02. That seems like it has to be a record, right? (It also has nothing to do with his stint at #1, which came in April of '27.)
   38. Rennie's Tenet Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:42 PM (#5874503)
Earnshaw?
   39. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:50 PM (#5874505)
Earnshaw?

No, but he shares Earnshaw's first name. (And number of 20-win seasons. Only led the league in walks once to Earshaw's twice, though.)
   40. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:52 PM (#5874506)
George? Was it George Uhle?
   41. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 12:55 PM (#5874509)
George? Was it George Uhle?

It was! 27-11, 2.83 in 1926, leading the majors in a whole lot of bulk-type categories (starts, complete games, innings... also hits allowed, walks, and hit batters, which is an interesting trifecta to pull off in a great season).

848. Dazzy Vance
413. Walter Johnson
293. Red Faber
154. Grover Cleveland Alexander
132. Stan Coveleski
125. Dolf Luque
105. Lefty Grove
44. George Uhle
11. Urban Shocker
10. Carl Mays
9. Herb Pennock
6. Ray Kremer
4. Hippo Vaughn

Uhle came from the #26 ranking at the beginning of '26 to end the season at #1; that's the biggest single-season climb to #1 I've encountered so far. It was also one of the closest races yet - Vance had a great game on the second-to-last day of the regular season to reclaim the top spot, but Uhle pitched on the last day and did just enough to pass him again.
   42. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 26, 2019 at 01:04 PM (#5874512)
All right!

All I know about George Uhle is he was on the Indians a long time ago and he was one of the best hitting pitchers of all time.

Looking at 1926, interestingly it was his WORST hitting season of his 13-year prime (.227/.287/.273). Career stats: .289/.339/.384
   43. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 26, 2019 at 01:04 PM (#5874514)
Wow, I never even considered Uhle. I guess there were two #1s on the 1920 Indians.

Wood might be a third if you go far enough back, but maybe not - he was great right in the middle of Johnson and Mathewson being Johnson and Mathewson. I feel like maybe Nap Rucker would be in the conversation about the same time too.
   44. Mike Webber Posted: August 26, 2019 at 01:05 PM (#5874515)
Eric if you have it handy, and easily broken down, can you throw up the list by league?
   45. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 01:14 PM (#5874518)
Eric if you have it handy, and easily broken down, can you throw up the list by league?

Unfortunately I don't have it broken down by league. (It would also be hard to do it by league because you'd have to come up with a way to account for pitchers who change leagues - which isn't especially common back in the day, but which did still happen sometimes. Especially around the Federal League, which I haven't entered yet but will get to someday.)

Wood might be a third if you go far enough back, but maybe not - he was great right in the middle of Johnson and Mathewson being Johnson and Mathewson. I feel like maybe Nap Rucker would be in the conversation about the same time too.

Ed Walsh as well.

I'll get to the older numbers eventually, but I'm waiting for boxscores as far back as 1901 (or preferably 1900) to be available before doing so, because it will require me to update at least five years' worth of rankings that I've already done, which will not be an enjoyable process. (The plan would be to use 1900-02 to build the initial rankings, and start having "official" rankings in 1903 to open the World Series era.)
   46. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: August 26, 2019 at 01:21 PM (#5874521)
27-11, 2.83 in 1926, leading the majors in a whole lot of bulk-type categories (starts, complete games, innings... also hits allowed, walks, and hit batters, which is an interesting trifecta to pull off in a great season).


I guess when you lead the majors in innings by over 10% (318 innings... next was Pete Donohue with 285) that can happen.
   47. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: August 26, 2019 at 01:22 PM (#5874522)
Just eyeballing individual league rankings... here are the people who've peaked at #2:

Burleigh Grimes (probably spent some time as the NL #1)
Wilbur Cooper (definitely spent some time as the NL #1)
Eddie Ciccotte (#2 behind Johnson, so not AL #1)
Ted Lyons (definitely spent some time as AL #1)
Bob Shawkey (behind Faber when he reached #2, but may have hit AL #1 at some point after Faber slipped later in '23)
Eppa Rixey (#2 behind Vance, so not NL #1)

Among pitchers who topped out at 3 and 4, I would say that Howard Ehmke may have hit AL #1, and Babe Adams may have been the NL #1 when he briefly reached #4. Art Nehf never got higher than #5, but he may have been the NL #1 for a bit anyway, because the NL field wasn't at its best in the early '20s. Probably nobody lower than that.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Eugene Freedman
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogChampionship Series OMNICHATTER!
(394 - 1:14am, Oct 14)
Last: Bote Man sez Deivi is MoY

NewsblogOT - NBA thread (pre-season)
(446 - 1:03am, Oct 14)
Last: Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

NewsblogDavid Freese, 2011 World Series MVP with Cardinals, retires after 11 seasons
(19 - 12:31am, Oct 14)
Last: Barry`s_Lazy_Boy

NewsblogMajor League Baseball has an opioid problem. Now what?
(33 - 12:16am, Oct 14)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogNationals vs. Cardinals: Washington or St. Louis? How each city stacks up
(28 - 11:36pm, Oct 13)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogMLB Rumors: Curt Schilling Interested in Phillies Manager, Red Sox Coaching Job
(13 - 9:47pm, Oct 13)
Last: Nasty Nate

Sox TherapyLet’s Get On With It
(14 - 8:29pm, Oct 13)
Last: Jose is an Absurd Time Cube

NewsblogMLB rumors: Giants to interview ex-Phillies skipper Gabe Kapler for open managerial position
(5 - 8:22pm, Oct 13)
Last: .

NewsblogSeveral errors led Phillies to this point, and one excuse Friday doesn't hold up
(15 - 8:06pm, Oct 13)
Last: SoSH U at work

NewsblogCards’ front office says playoff baseballs have lost juice
(11 - 5:28pm, Oct 13)
Last: spycake

NewsblogTyler Skaggs: Fentanyl, oxycodone, alcohol led to death| LA Times
(45 - 5:11pm, Oct 13)
Last: Howie Menckel

Newsblog The Cooperstown Case for Yadier Molina, Russell Martin, and Brian McCann - The Ringer
(102 - 3:11pm, Oct 13)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogBaseball's top salaries are declining, as evidenced by smaller qualifying offer
(15 - 11:48am, Oct 13)
Last: Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant

NewsblogLos Angeles Angels employee details team's knowledge of Tyler Skaggs' drug use to federal DEA investigators -- ESPN
(4 - 10:57am, Oct 13)
Last: pikepredator

NewsblogThe 'purge' Mets' Brodie Van Wagenen, other GMs should fear
(4 - 10:53am, Oct 13)
Last: DL from MN

Page rendered in 0.4825 seconds
46 querie(s) executed