Marquard lied his ass off in his Glory of Their Times interview, too.

Interesting read on the etiquette of being with the team while on the DL, including quotes from experts Harden and McCarthy.

Braden had shoulder surgery in May and since then, he has come into the training room for treatment, then quickly taken off back to Stockton well before first pitch.

His daily disappearances were noted, and not necessarily appreciated, in a clubhouse where teamwork and camaraderie is valued.

A's general manager Billy Beane, who gets shoulder treatment with Braden most days, even dropped a hint to Braden that he might want to increase his face time.

"I sort of put a smile on and said, 'Hey, we like to see you. It would be great for everyone to see you,' " Beane said. "Dallas is a smart guy. He got it." Braden did. On Aug. 31, he tweeted, "All September, I'm gonna be a teammate," and he was on the bench during Sunday's game.

How did a man descendant from French nobility get the nickname Rube? The Marquis of Marquard would be more fitting.

I just found out that Rube was once married to Blossom Seeley, a big star in vaudeville, who appeared on the Ed Sullivan show in the 50s.

. . . who appeared on the Ed Sullivan show in the 50s.

Didn't everyone?

Tall tale telling is a lost art. There was some respect given to people who could fool outsiders (e.g. the press) like that; Dizzy Dean was a later version. Lucky for him when he got into radio there were no internet people making fun of his facts and creating firedizzydean.com.
A classic is when Mark Twain meets an old pilot and tries to get some tall tales out of him and pretends to take it at face value...but the old guy had recognized him as a river man and knew he knew it was BS.

i'd just like to say that dusty baker has won the manager of the year award 3 times and charlie manuel has yet to win his first.


the consensus this year seems to be that kirk gibson is the frontrunner, but with the phillies absolutely demolishing the league, playing at a 106 win pace, i think now should be the time to honor sustained greatness, as opposed to run of the mill overachieving.

everyone expected the phillies to be good, but if you look at some preseason predictions, there were plenty of doubters. of the offense, of the bullpen, of the bench. people thought they were old. people thought they were injury prone. people thought the braves were on the upswing.


i mean, this season was not a given. and they haven't even been consistently healthy. rollins, utley, polanco, victorino, and ruiz have found themselves on the DL this year. so have hamels, oswalt and blanton and lidge, contreras, and madson.


but still, the phillies have excelled. i mean, really excelled. their run differential is 187. the combined run differential of the other three projected playoff teams (braves, brewers, and diamondbacks) is 163. the phillies are playing 1 game ahead of their pythag. those other three teams are playing a combined 17 games over theirs.



this is really the team of these players' generation. it was not a given. and the man at the head of it deserves to be recognized individually for the impact he's had in keeping the team on the pace it's on.

Meant to post this a day or two ago - was reminded by its placement on BA's front page ... they (baseballamerica.com) have upgrade their player finder, it now includes, among other things, career transactions (that's sub only). For me, anyway, this is a big deal.

steagles, I'm glad your enjoying your team's success and think Manuel for MotY has a lot of merit, but I agree with those who claim you're overrating their awesomeness. I'm not saying stop gloating/celebrating, but you might want to take a step back.

steagles, I'm glad your enjoying your team's success and think Manuel for MotY has a lot of merit, but I agree with those who claim you're overrating their awesomeness. I'm not saying stop gloating/celebrating, but you might want to take a step back.

i don't think that's the case, though. the last 15 years, the red sox have finished with win totals between 82-98. none of those teams separate themselves from any of the other ones.

it's the same thing with the yankees. every year since '99, they've finished with between 87 and 103 wins. again, there's really no separation between the different iterations.

the 2004 cardinals had 105 wins, but their pitching staff was anchored by jeff suppan, woody williams, matt morris, and jason marquis. they had 3 position players performing a HOF peak, but they were also starting tony womack at 2B and mike matheny at C. and they overperformed their ptyhag by 5.

there were the moneyball A's, but that was 2002. the 98 yankees and braves, but that was 98. there were the 01 mariners, but that was 01. those teams aren't really relevant to this generation of players.



there are teams like the braves, the yankees, the brewers, and the red sox every year. there are teams that overachieve every year.

i'd contend that this phillies team is something more than that, though i will grant you that it should probably not be trumpeted in the manner in which i have been until the ink is dry on the standings, and the trophy is headed down broad street.

i don't think that's the case, though.
Obviously. :)

My Braves fandom aside, I wish you guys well - I do like the team you've put together (in several respects), I just think "this is really the team of these players' generation" is a bit much.

We should just change the name of the dugout to "Thread wherein STEAGLES tries to convince everyone that the Phillies are historically great".

Look, I actually like the Phillies - I lived in (well, next to) Philadelphia for a couple of years, had Phillies season tickets in 2005, and rooted for them in the playoffs over the past four years as my NL team. It's not like I'm trying to denigrate them because I have a rooting interest against them or something.

Their run differential and all that are excellent, but also not historically amazing. Frankly, if you're league average (at best) on one side of the ball, you aren't historically great, no matter how many shutouts Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay throw. They are certainly among the best teams of the last five years.

Really, though, wait until it's all over before you start making pronouncements. You certainly don't need to do it 2-3 times per week between now and October.

You certainly don't need to do it 2-3 times per week between now and October.

That will just make it funnier when the DBacks upset them in the first round.

I will say, though, if the Phillies finish on a tear, end up 107-55, and steamroll through the playoffs, you can boast about them all you like.

Obviously.

:)

Frankly, if you're league average (at best) on one side of the ball

you still on that? the phillies are 3rd in the NL in runs per game

I will say, though, if the Phillies finish on a tear, end up 107-55, and steamroll through the playoffs, you can boast about them all you like.

check the standings. they're on pace for 106 wins. if they finish on a tear, they're gonna win 110.

Really, though, wait until it's all over before you start making pronouncements. You certainly don't need to do it 2-3 times per week between now and October.

i don't need to, but i do want to.


and i don't think they're getting proper acknowledgment for what they're doing.

bastardo is having a historic season. both roy halladay and cliff lee have as many complete games as any other team in the NL. the entire pitching staff is flirting with a sub 3.00 ERA. the team has won 14 straight vance worley starts. the team is 37-11 following a loss. carlos ruiz has a 105 OPS+ and jimmy rollins is at 102, both well above average for their positions. shane victorino has an .899 OPS while stealing 18/21 bases and posting a BB:SO ratio of 49:55. ryan howard, for all the #### he's taken, still has 59 XBH and a 125 OPS+. hunter pence has a 149 OPS+ since his acquisition. chase utley is still putting up a 112 OPS+, which, like rollins and ruiz, is well above average for the position.

the defense has a .988 fielding % and a .710 defensive efficiency rating.

cliff lee has a HR.


this is not a one trick pony here. this isn't a few good starting pitchers having career years. this is a tremendously well rounded team all playing up to or exceeding expectations.


and yes, i'm gonna shout it from the rooftops because it's just so much ####### fun to witness, and because the team itself has too much class to boast their own achievements.

Steagles goes overboard as he is wont to do with the Phils but I think his point about Manuel is a good one. I think sports fans underrate those that avoid screwing up and don't realize how difficult that is. Manuel could have done any number of things and left this team on pace for a very good but ordinary 98-100 win season. I don't follow the Phils closely enough to know how much impact Manuel has but it seems to me that he's at least smart enough to stay the hell out of the way and I think that is something that is more difficult than it appears. (I think this is one of Girardi's biggest weaknesses).

Any discussion of them as historically meaningful should probably wait until they have gone further than say the 2001 Mariners.

The 2011 Phillies are first in ERA+ and sixth in OPS+

The 2010 Giants were first in ERA+ and sixth in OPS+

Don't get me wrong, the Phillies are better than the Giants largely because their pitching staff is truly obscene but they don't look especially historic to me. A lot of that is going to be based on what we consider "historic" though.

Tall tale telling is a lost art.

Nah, it's just limited to politicians and journalists these days.

Although I half-hope Harvey Wallbangers is revealed as a fictional creation.

you still on that? the phillies are 3rd in the NL in runs per game

They play in a hitters park, and their OPS+ as a team is 97 (yes, I know these things are related). They are fine, but that's basically average.

Bastardo has thrown a grand total of 54 innings. The NL stinks, mostly. Shane Victorino's BB/K ratio means nothing in this context. Ryan Howard's 125 OPS+ is league average for his position. Hunter Pence has had a nice six weeks. I'm glad they have a good fielding percentage (?). Worley has pitched well - but over his head, and has gotten incredible run support.

The Yankees have been just about as good while playing in the tougher league. I don't even think it's clear the Phillies are the best team in baseball this season, let alone over many seasons.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be excited - but I do think you are too close to this team to rate them objectively.

this is not a one trick pony here. this isn't a few good starting pitchers having career years. this is a tremendously well rounded team all playing up to or exceeding expectations.

No, it's a team with truly great pitching, and a lineup that's decent and nothing more. "Tremendously well rounded teams" (your words) excel on both sides of the ball - this team REALLY excels at the run prevention part, and is about average offensively.

Jose - agree about Manuel (with you too, STEAGLES). He's done great, clearly.

The 2011 Phillies are first in ERA+ and sixth in OPS+

The 2010 Giants were first in ERA+ and sixth in OPS+

128 ERA+ for the phillies vs. 118 for the giants is a bit of a difference.

also, as stated, the 2011 phillies are 3rd in the NL in runs scored per game. the 2010 giants were 9th.

which leads to the noticeable gap in run differential: 114 vs. 187. that's kind of significant.


also, the 2010 giants were a much, much better offensive team than the 2011 giants. huff and torres had career years. burrell had a last gasp. buster posey was absolutely unconscious. none of that was really the case this year.

also, the breakdown of the pitching between both teams is somewhat different. the giants had 3 relievers pitch at an elite level, but their starters were only well above average. the ERA+ of their top 4 starters ranged from 115 (lincecum) to 132 (bumgarner). the phillies have a stronger, tighter spread at the position, with worley, hamels, halladay, and lee ranging from 136 to 152.

basically, over the regular season, the phillies have 4 SPs who are better than any of last year's giants SPs.


the playoffs are a wholly different situation, though. i'm not one to lack in confidence, but there's a much stronger possibility for luck to influence results in a 5 game playoff series, versus a 162 game regular season, so i'm just gonna appreciate what the team is doing right now before getting too wrapped up in the chase for 11 postseason wins.

also, as stated, the 2011 phillies are 3rd in the NL in runs scored per game. the 2010 giants were 9th.

Park factors.

basically, over the regular season, the phillies have 4 SPs who are better than any of last year's giants SPs.

Worley has thrown 110 innings and you're saying he is having a better season than 2010 Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain? Okay, I'm done here.

128 ERA+ for the phillies vs. 118 for the giants is a bit of a difference.

Which is why I said the Phillies were better than the Giants.

also, the 2010 giants were a much, much better offensive team than the 2011 giants.

I think there is a high likelihood that this will be fairly true of the 2011/2012 Phillies though to a lesser degree.

For what it's worth, what are you considering "historic?" I guess when I think "historic" I think of the the very best of the best, probably about 10 teams and I don't think the Phils are there. Now hey, they could go 17-3 the rest of the way finish with 110 wins then wipe out the world in the playoffs and yeah, they are in the discussion. At the same time they could go 10-10 in "coast" mode and finish an "ordinarily great" 103-59 and then lose in the NLCS and they don't belong.

I agree with you that they have flown under the radar. They are not a very flashy team and even their great pitching staff is somewhat uninspiring. Maybe that's not the right word but Cliff Lee inducing 17 ground ball outs doesn't make SportsCenter the way Pedro Martinez striking out 15 would and just generally I think pitching-based teams are not as sexy as hitting-based teams.

They play in a hitters park, and their OPS+ as a team is 97.

so, you think the hitting is below average, despite the 3 players in the starting lineup who are well above average, another 3 who are above average for their positions, and two who are below average, but not hideously so?

have you considered that the phillies A) have pitchers going deep into games, and therefore have them batting more often than the pitchers on any other NL team and B) have had players in and out of the lineup all season, and therefore have given 774 ABs to wilson valdez, ben francisco, and michael martinez, none of whom project to be significant contributors going into the postseason.


you're looking at 1 number and expecting that to completely capsulize the team's offense.

how about another number? like oWAR, which also has the phillies as 3rd in the NL. or WPA, where the phillies finish a slightly less inspiring 5th. or WPA/LI, where the phillies are back to 3rd.

Worley has thrown 110 innings and you're saying he is having a better season than 2010 Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain? Okay, I'm done here.

alternatively, it could be said that "you're looking at 1 number and expecting that to completely capsulize the team's [pitching]."


anyway, your hating will be sorely missed.

I think there is a high likelihood that this will be fairly true of the 2011/2012 Phillies though to a lesser degree.

i don't think that'll be the case.

the strength of the offense is really located in that victorino, utley, rollins, ruiz quartet. to be able to have up the middle players as good as these 4 are on offense, on the bases, and in the field is really a tremendous luxury. if they lose rollins and replace him with wilson valdez, if utley continues his injury related decline, if victorino regresses back to the ~115 OPS+ player he's been in the past, that'll probably do it. but if they can maintain their up the middle production, they'll still be firmly placed in the top half of the league.

bastardo is having a historic season.

Um, what?

54 IP, 66 K, 22 BB, 236 ERA+. I'm sure that line is duplicated or bettered at least 5 times every season. Hell, Atlanta has 3 guys much better just this year.

Um, what?

54 IP, 66 K, 22 BB, 236 ERA+. I'm sure that line is duplicated or bettered at least 5 times every season. Hell, Atlanta has 3 guys much better just this year.

batting average against. the opposition is hitting only .114 against him, which i believe is well below the previous "record" for the stat in a 50+ inning single season sample.

and yeah, the term was used fairly loosely in this case.


although, i would like to say that bastardo's OPS against is lower than any of the 3 braves relievers you referred to.

the strength of the offense is really located in that victorino, utley, rollins, ruiz quartet.

And they're playing awfully well. Victorino is 30; the other three are 32. Betting on players that age to repeat the next season is a losing game.