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Tuesday, September 17, 2019

Primer Dugout (and link of the day) 9-17-2019

Essex County [Vermont] Herald, September 17, 1919:

Way back in ‘89 Cincinnati was playing one afternoon with Chris Von Der Ahe’s St. Louis aggregation on the St. Louis grounds.
...
Cliff Carroll was playing center field for the St. Louis nine. The Cincinnati batter hit a slow grounder to center, and Carroll ran up to gather it in…Just before it reached him the ball hit a clump of dirt and bounded high. Carroll grabbed for it with both hands, just as it hit him in the chest. Somehow in the struggle the ball was wedged into the pocket of Carroll’s uniform shirt. It got in there, and Cliff had a terrible time trying to get it out.
...
The result was that the [batter] got home safely and Cincinnati won the game. Von Der Ahe almost had a fit. He fined Carroll fifty for putting the ball in his pocket and made a rule that thereafter no pockets of any kind should be allowed in the uniforms of his team.

It’s a neat story that gets repeated a lot, but I can’t find any contemporary accounts of it actually happening. The Red Stockings hit one inside-the-park home run against the Browns in 1889, by George Tebeau in Cincinnati on July 18, 1889. There’s absolutely no mention of Carroll losing the ball in his pocket in the next week’s issue of The Sporting Life, and no reports in the Library of Congress newspaper archive site. I’ll stop short of saying this didn’t happen; I haven’t done anywhere near enough research to state that unequivocally. I’ll just say that if it happened, either it wasn’t ruled a home run (which it sounds like it should have been) or it didn’t happen the way it’s described here.

Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 10:49 AM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dugout, history

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   1. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 10:50 AM (#5879946)
I should also mention that I'd love to see a contemporary report of Carroll losing a ball in his pocket, if anyone can point me to one.
   2. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 10:53 AM (#5879949)
An excellent Birthday Team today, particularly with the four non-MLB starting pitchers. It's not every day you have a #3 starter who once went 38-4 with a 1.41 ERA.

C: Les Peden (0.2 WAR)
1B: Orlando Cepeda (50.2 WAR)
2B: Hughie Critz (15.1 WAR)
3B: Jose Ramirez (25.0 WAR)
SS: Marcus Semien (19.5 WAR)
LF: Ezra Sutton (32.4 WAR)
CF: Frank Schulte (23.8 WAR)
RF: Earl Webb (13.2 WAR)

SP/Manager: Rube Foster (Negro Leagues legend)
SP: Shigeru Sugishita (NPB Hall of Famer)
SP: Tadashi Sugiura (NPB Hall of Famer)
SP: Dan Haren (35.0 WAR)
SP: Sam Streeter (Negro Leagues pitcher)
RP: John Franco (23.4 WAR)

Would be in the rotation if I didn't include people who never had a chance to play in MLB: Willie Sudhoff (13.4 WAR), Sheriff Blake (10.5 WAR), Whitey Glazner (7.2 WAR), Nick Cullop (6.6 WAR)
Less successful brother: Butts Wagner
Less successful son: Martin Dihigo Jr.
Fun names: Wayne Krenchicki, Zack Granite, Farmer Ray, Nate Berkenstock
Poet/Japanese baseball pioneer: Shiki Masaoka
Drafted as a pitcher by the Braves, chose football, threw for more than 32,000 NFL yards: Mark Brunell
Not that one: Tom Waddell
   3. Itchy Row Posted: September 17, 2019 at 10:56 AM (#5879951)
Cliff Carroll didn't play at all in 1889. His only year with STL was 1892.

A couple of other sites say it happened in 1892 on August 17 (an 11-3 loss for STL) or 18 (a 13-4 win) and that Carroll was suspended for the rest of the season.
   4. crict Posted: September 17, 2019 at 11:06 AM (#5879954)
Posted late in yesterday's dugout, reposting as I figure it might interest some here:

While doing some research on 1940 minor league baseball, I came across a news item about a baseball movie being presented after a ball game. The movie was produced by the American League for the 100th anniversary of the game, and is called "Touching all bases". It's on youtube. Some nice shots of the inaugural Cooperstown induction, and of the 8 American League ballparks and teams.
   5. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 11:40 AM (#5879969)
Thanks, Itchy Row. I'll dig around for reports from those games. It's a story I kind of want to be true, but just seems like the sort of tall tale that pops up and people believe without questioning it.

Also, I can't wait to watch that video, crict. Very cool.
   6. Rennie's Tenet Posted: September 17, 2019 at 12:32 PM (#5879987)
Local news in Pittsburgh is reporting the arrest of Felipe Vazquez on sex charges involving a young teen Florida girl.

Story
   7. crict Posted: September 17, 2019 at 12:35 PM (#5879988)
Local news in Pittsburgh is reporting the arrest of Felipe Vazquez on sex charges involving a young teen Florida girl.


Ick.I guess Kyle Crick is vindicated.
   8. Esoteric Posted: September 17, 2019 at 12:40 PM (#5879990)
everybody else in the pirates locker room is now the hero of this story.
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 12:43 PM (#5879992)
everybody else in the pirates locker room is now the hero of this story.

But the guy who wanted to beat Vazquez's face in is the #1 hero.
   10. Itchy Row Posted: September 17, 2019 at 12:58 PM (#5880000)
Apparently a 13-year-old.
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 01:04 PM (#5880006)
Apparently a 13-year-old.

Ugh. That's not even in "bad judgement" territory, it's in full "lock the guy up" land.
   12. Itchy Row Posted: September 17, 2019 at 01:08 PM (#5880009)
ESPN says she was 13 when they started and it continued until at least this July. She's 15 now.
   13. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 01:22 PM (#5880021)
Okay, here's what I've got on the mysterious Cliff Carroll incident:

* I've found no detailed accounts of what happened.

* Looks like the last game he played in 1892 was on Thursday, August 18, the 13-4 win over Baltimore. He committed no errors that day and the only extra-base hit that the Orioles had that day was a triple by Billy Shindle. The Sporting Life recap of the game says the Browns' defense was brilliant on August 18.

* Carroll committed two errors against Brooklyn on August 17 and the Sporting Life described the Browns defense that day as wretched. There's nothing about a ball going into a pocket, though.

* Here's an excerpt from a piece in the August 27, 1892 issue of the Sporting Life:
When the boys reported for practice on Thursday [August 18] morning...Mr. Von der Ahe called for Moran and Carroll to run the gauntlet prepared for them. The Boss chewed at the end of a two-for-a-quarter, and when the two players appeared before him he began to chew the rag, so to speak.

He expailated [?] on the tint of Moran's work of the day before, and alluded in satirical terms to a muff that Carroll had made the day before in the game with Brooklyn, and then informed them that their next check would be $50 apiece short of what their contract called for.

Carroll sulked, and he had pretty good grounds for it, as his playing on the whole this season has averaged better than was anticipated.
* The word "pocket" is used a total of twice in relation to an on-field incident involving a player in the Sporting Life issues dated August 20, August 27, September 3, and September 10, 1892. The first is when Tim Keefe got caught trying to sneak an old, used, presumably scuffed ball into a uniform pocket. The second discusses an occasionally-used tactic whereby the pitcher keeps a bunch of rosin in his pocket.

So I dunno. Obviously there was something that took place on August 17/18, 1892 that caused animosity between Von der Ahe and Carroll. It might have been a ball bouncing into Carroll's pocket, but it may just have been Carroll being pissed off that his owner made fun of him in front of the team and fined him. My guess is that it's closer to the latter than the former, but that's just a guess.

I don't have a newspapers.com subscription, so I can't do much digging in local St. Louis papers.
   14. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 01:24 PM (#5880024)
If Vazquez is guilty, dude should be thrown into a pit and occasionally tossed some bread or water. That's garbage behavior.
   15. crict Posted: September 17, 2019 at 01:36 PM (#5880034)
About Cliff Carroll:

This thread has the following info:

The Brooklyn Eagle of September 2, 1892 reports that Carroll had jumped the club the previous day, which was payday when he found that he had been docked $50 for letting the ball get into his shirt. The Eagle says the play occurred on August 17 and the batter was Darby O'Brien of Brooklyn.
   16. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 01:47 PM (#5880047)
Fantastic, crict, thanks!
   17. crict Posted: September 17, 2019 at 01:50 PM (#5880049)
Here's the quote:
Cliff Carroll and president Von Der Ahe have disagreed about salary matters and yesterday Carroll refused to play. Von der Ahe suspended him. The trouble is a sequel to the incident of August 17, in the game against the Brooklyns, when a ball Carroll was fielding got into his shirt pocket and O'Brien, the batsman, made third base on the error. Von der Ahe fined Carroll $50 for indifferent playing. When the salary checks were given the men yesterday the $50 was deducted from Carroll's pay. Carroll protested against this and declared he would play no more for the St. Louis club.
   18. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 17, 2019 at 02:48 PM (#5880082)
From the ESPN article:

Vazquez will be paid while on administrative leave, but the Pirates could attempt to void his contract. However, past efforts by teams to nullify deals, even in cases of illegal behavior, have proven difficult. He is owed $5.25 million for the 2020 season and $7.25 million for 2021. The Pirates also hold $10 million options on the 2022 and '23 seasons -- the first with a $1 million buyout and the second a $500,000 buyout.


Surely the Pirates won't have to pay him if he is in prison, or will they?
   19. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 02:53 PM (#5880084)
Surely the Pirates won't have to pay him if he is in prison, or will they?

I would think that if you can't show up for your job b/c you're locked up, they don't have to pay you. I could be wrong, but I don't know why any employer would not insist on that clause in a contract.
   20. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 17, 2019 at 02:59 PM (#5880086)
I would think that if you can't show up for your job b/c you're locked up, they don't have to pay you. I could be wrong, but I don't know why any employer would not insist on that clause in a contract.


I'm no expert on the CBA, but I have to believe that is correct. It's likely the quoted part about nullifying contracts being difficult has to do with mere bad behavior and not a player being unable to show up to work due to being in the pokey.

If he makes bail pending trial, I think the Pirates should have to pay him, whether they want him on the team or not. Since there's only 2 weeks left in the season, I don't think they will make an issue out of it.
.
   21. Hank Gillette Posted: September 17, 2019 at 07:28 PM (#5880158)
The trouble is a sequel to the incident of August 17, in the game against the Brooklyns, when a ball Carroll was fielding got into his shirt pocket and O'Brien, the batsman, made third base on the error.


Darby O’Brien, the hitter, died the next year of typhoid, at age 29. RIP.

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