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Friday, December 23, 2005

Projo.com: Notebook: If rumors were deals, Sox roster would be set

This article is chock full o’ rumors, including this one pointed out by JBH. Sounds too good to be true:

The Red Sox are reportedly involved in three-way talks with the Padres and Devil Rays about a deal that would send pitcher David Wells to San Diego and Tampa Bay shortstop Julio Lugo to Boston. To complete the trade, Padres prospects would go to the Devil Rays. SOURCE: ESPN and several radio stations.

Then there’s this:

bs starting pitcher Mark Prior would head to Boston along with a package of other players—which may include shortstop Ronny Cedeno and center fielder Corey Patterson—in a trade that would send Manny Ramirez to Baltimore and shortstop Miguel Tejada to Chicago.

Maybe it’s the Christmas spirit, but I am feeling pretty confident that the Sox will put together a good roster for next year.

Darren Posted: December 23, 2005 at 02:42 PM | 41 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cubs, mariners, orioles, red sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 23, 2005 at 03:55 PM (#1791701)
As I read it, the Sox roster wouldn't be set, as they'd be carrying two good shortstops, no left fielder, and they'd desperately need a reserve CF in case the Patterson wager failed to pay off.

I love the Wells/Lugo trade, though I'm having trouble believing it's for real- maybe Towers is still secretly working for Lucchino.

The Manny trade is certainly interesting, I'll give them that. It sounds a wee bit like the Red Sox inserting themselves into a trade where they're not necessarily wanted, and it's hard to believe that there are no other prospects in the deal (last I heard, both the Cubs and Orioles were demanding young players along with the principles, and this reported trade has all the young players going to the Sox.)

That Manny trade also reads very much like the first step in a multi-step makeover process - the Sox would need a brand new LF who could hit some, and a right-handed hitter who could handle CF (a Payton type...) who could platoon with Trot if Patterson panned out and take over for Patterson if he hit like he did, you know, last year. I assume they'd trade one of their 75 extra pitchers in that case, but I don't know where.

As to whether it's a good trade, that all depends on Prior's health, Patterson's mental health, Manny's defense (-20 or -40?), and what the Sox do with the leftover cash and empty positions. Sure would be interesting.

I'd miss Manny >> Damon but << Pedro. It would be a very sad day, regardless of the on-the-field considerations. Watching Manny hit, every day, all summer, has been a real treat. I still hope he stays.
   2. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 23, 2005 at 03:57 PM (#1791704)
Or, put differently, those trades seem to create an unnecessary overlap. Ronny Cedeno looks like a major league ready SS. Julio Lugo would definitely be an upgrade over Cedeno, but not a particularly large one. IF the Manny trade is for real (the prospect package makes me doubt it), I'd guess the Sox might be looking for Jonny Gomes instead.
   3. OlePerfesser Posted: December 23, 2005 at 04:52 PM (#1791777)
Um, sorry I've yet to see much Sunshine lately, but all those rumors have the same likelihood of being true as John Flaherty has of being an asset to anything other than a coed softball team.

At the top of the article, Cherington used the word <u>rebuilding</u>. That is accurate. This team is no longer in "hole-filling" mode; it's in the process of being torn down and reconstructed. Next it's adios Manny, and once that happens you might as well forget about the Glauses and Lugos and (shudder) Pattersons and start planning for '07.
   4. Pleasant Nate (Upgraded from 'Nate') Posted: December 23, 2005 at 04:59 PM (#1791784)
There's also a Globe article, can't find the link, that talks about David Wells or Matt Clement going to LA for JD Drew. I likey. Discuss. Merry Christmas.
   5. Pleasant Nate (Upgraded from 'Nate') Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:02 PM (#1791787)
Scratch that, the Globe article says the Dodgers have interest in Wells, but Rotoworld speculates about Drew, which actually makes sense. The Dodgers free up some more cash, rid themselves of another of Depo's guys, and get a pitcher that they badly need....

The Dodgers are reemerging as a suitor for David Wells, according to the Boston Globe.
The previous rumors regarding the Dodgers had reliever Jonathan Broxton involved. That's a trade the Red Sox could make, but we wonder if they might seek to relieve the Dodgers of J.D. Drew's contract, with either Wells or Matt Clement going the way. It'd be a risk, but a healthy Drew would exceed Johnny Damon's production and cover enough ground in center field. The Red Sox are also discussing Wells with the Padres, who could send back prospects which would then be used to lure Julio Lugo out of Tampa Bay.
   6. Cowboy Popup Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:18 PM (#1791800)
"Julio Lugo would definitely be an upgrade over Cedeno, but not a particularly large one."

How well do you think Cedeno would do? Lugo is a pretty good player right now. Sure, he's not a good person, and that might cause problems. But Lugo is significantly above average at SS with the bat, on defense and on the basepaths. Is Cedeno really almost that good?
   7. JB H Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:22 PM (#1791806)
I don't believe the Prior rumor at all. If there was anything to it, they wouldn't stick it in the 8th graph, right below a Kelly Shoppach for Adrian Gonzalez rumor.

If we traded Clement and Wells for Drew and Lugo, I'd die of happiness
   8. Darren Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:24 PM (#1791807)
MCoA,

Don't you think that if the Sox did a deal for Tejada, they might not go after Cedeno from the Cubs? I think the general thrust of the article is that the Sox have a lot of possible deals, that if they were able to pull the trigger on some of them, would have them ready to go in 06.

As for the Cubs rumor, anything that brings back Prior has to be considered a huge coup. His 05 injury was a fluke and returned pretty strongly from it, IIRC. (I don't think he's a bs starting pitcher, despite my typo.)

Why not Murton instead of Cedeno/Patterson? He'd be blocked by Jones/Manny anyway and Dusty would probably only use him as a pinchrunner or something silly. Yes, I'm dreaming again. Please slap me.

FWIW, it's not Cherington that used the word rebuild, and I read his point as being "we're not going to rush into a deal just to make a splash to offset losing Damon, but we'll have our team in good shape by spring." But I guess he could have meant a more longterm approach.

Hey, what about Marte at SS?
   9. Darren Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:24 PM (#1791808)
Oh, and that Manny blocking Murton thing doesn't make sense, so please ignore it. I guess I'm a bs poster today.
   10. Joel W Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:28 PM (#1791813)
J.D. Drew would be great. Clement for Drew and then Manny for Prior. I suppose the Red Sox take on a lot of injury risk there. But damn if that's not a lot of upside.

I know Levski among others has said that Marte can't play left, but I imagine that next year he couldn't be worse than Manny in left fielding wise, and even if he were -15 he'd be better. If we had to take a rational guess on what Marte could do in left next year, what would it be?
   11. sunnyday2 Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:31 PM (#1791817)
I liked the story in USA Today yesterday. Now that Damon's gone who will play CF for the Red Sox? Basically the idea was that after the Yankees, who of course get whomever they want, well, then the Red Sox are next in line and can have any CF in the major leagues jsut becasue, well, they're the Red Sox.
   12. Joel W Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:37 PM (#1791825)
Ladies and gentleman, your 2006 New York Yankees Centerfielder. damon photo

I know its his right arm, but he looks like he's throwing.
   13. OlePerfesser Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:43 PM (#1791831)
...it's not Cherington that used the word rebuild

Yer right, Darren. I'm a bs reader today.

I do believe the "Manny is furious" part about the article, though, and would guess that if there was a Vegas line on his coming back, it'd be a long shot. And that ultimately we'll send him to either the Mets or Angels for prospects we were offered a while ago but at which we turned up our noses. And that we'll then send some or all of those prospects to the desert for Glaus+ or to TB for Lugo/Huff or some other package of veterans that might keep us on the cusp of contention.

Wish I could be as Sunshiney as some here, but the way the Damon thing went down, causing even our field manager to express shock, suggests that this FO really doesn't have their stuff together. And why should they? LL's frequently distracted, and you've put a couple of rookies in a job share, with a 71-y.o. suffering from leukemia (and assorted other maladies) looking over their shoulders. And the shelves are getting more and more bare while this crew goes on its first real shopping trip. This is not a pretty picture. Mind Game's sequel might be Things Fall Apart.
   14. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: December 23, 2005 at 05:51 PM (#1791840)
I'm not sure I understand all the love for Julio Lugo. I mean, yeah he's cheap, but I don't think he's much better than Renteria, and people seemed pretty up in arms about how much Renteria sucked. I don't know much about Lugo's defense, maybe it's better than Renteria's, but that much better?

OPS+ last 4 years
Renteria:
116, 130, 90, 91
Lugo:
84, 95, 94, 105

I can see the trend argument, that Lugo seems to be getting better and Renteria getting worse, but they're the same age, and Renteria has been awesome in the not-distant past. Both have been pretty durable, and they're the same age. Of course, Renteria netted Marte, which is great and I wouldn't take it back, so I'm even not sure what I'm getting at here. I'm a bs poster today too. Just ignore me.
   15. Cowboy Popup Posted: December 23, 2005 at 06:02 PM (#1791864)
"I'm not sure I understand all the love for Julio Lugo. I mean, yeah he's cheap, but I don't think he's much better than Renteria, and people seemed pretty up in arms about how much Renteria sucked."

Well that's the thing, he's so much cheaper then Renteria and he's been better (much better) over the last two years. He's a fantastic baserunner, a plus defender, and since he's become a full time player he's turned into a pretty good hitter. He doesn't have any power, he doesn't have much discipline, but he does well enough in the other facets of the game to make him pretty valuable and IMO undervalued. Of course, he beats women, so he's got character issues, but it hasn't been an issue in Tampa as far as I know. I'd be really upset if the Sox got Lugo, and not so much if they got many of the other options being rumored.
   16. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: December 23, 2005 at 06:04 PM (#1791866)
I'm just not as concerned about the FO as everyone else seems to be. I mean, there's another three months or so until Spring Training. If even <strike>half</strike> one-third of the Red Sox trade rumors are true, then the FO is working it's butt off trying to put things together for 2006 and I'm sure something will be in place. If we get into mid-February and there's still no CF or SS and they still have 37 pitchers, then I'll start to worry. Until then, I think all this fuss about the FO being a disaster is way premature. I think we're just getting impatient wanting this team to come together already.

As to the Sox FO not knowing that Damon signed, how do front offices usually know this stuff? Spies? Bugged offices? Unless Gammons was in the room with Boras and Cashman, seriously how would they know? Maybe I'm hopelessly naive. I don't consider myself a FO apologist (even though I might sound like one) but I'm willing to give them some time to do their jobs before I get all concerned about their office politics.
   17. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: December 23, 2005 at 06:41 PM (#1791914)
Well that's the thing, he's so much cheaper then Renteria and he's been better (much better) over the last two years.

Lugo was much better last year, but the year before he wasn't all that much better, and the years before that Renteria has the clear advantage. I guess I just don't like saying that one player sucks and another player is good when I think they'll probably be close to the same player. I know Renteria was/is overpaid, but that doesn't effect how he plays.

I'd be thrilled if the Sox got Lugo for Wells. It would be tough to root for Lugo because of the whole domestic abuse thing, but as a place holder/mercenary he'd be great.

On a seperate topic, has anyone thought that Cherrington as a player development guy coming into the GM office could mean that a greater focus and higher priority is being placed on player development within the organization? That would be sweet.
   18. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 23, 2005 at 06:52 PM (#1791931)
griffy-

I agree with you generally, but in the context of this conversation, who said Renteria sucked? He seems like an average shortstop, and very durable. If anyone says Renteria sucks, they're wrong. I'm only happy that Renteria's gone because he brought Marte back.

If the Sox now go and get a similar replacement, that's great. Lugo looks to me like an upgrade defensively (Renteria was the 3nd worst shortstop in the AL last year, and the worst shortstop who wasn't a bad 2B inexplicably stuck at SS because he's gritty, white and lovable), but even if he isn't, the Sox would be in good shape.
   19. Darren Posted: December 23, 2005 at 06:56 PM (#1791937)
Renteria also had a couple of nagging health problems that Lugo doesn't have. Even outside of that, Lugo at 1/5 + Marte -11 million is a better than Renteria at 3/29 IMHO.
   20. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: December 23, 2005 at 07:04 PM (#1791956)
Yeah, I'm really giving my straw man a beating today.

I could have sworn I read a bunch of people saying that Renteria sucked a little while ago in a thread far, far away. This was a belated defense, I guess.

Vaux, the insane musicologist Posted: December 06, 2005 at 11:04 PM (#1765015)
That would be totally insane. Renteria SUCKS.

Shoot, that's all I could find.
   21. Dizzypaco Posted: December 23, 2005 at 07:06 PM (#1791960)
If the Sox can pull off Wells for Lugo, then the offseason looks like this:

Beckett for Wells
Lugo for Renteria
Lowell/Marte for Mueller

Not too shabby...

Of course, there is the matter of a center fielder.
   22. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 23, 2005 at 07:38 PM (#1792008)
I thought the thing with Wells was much more a case of him wanting to get to the west coast than wanting to get out of Boston, and I don't think he meant the west coast of Florida.
   23. karlmagnus Posted: December 23, 2005 at 07:40 PM (#1792011)
Either way he gets to watch sunsets over the ocean. What's the problem?
   24. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 23, 2005 at 07:43 PM (#1792012)
Technically, he'd be watching sunsets over a gulf, not an ocean. I can't really comment on Boomer's grasp of geographical subtleties, though.
   25. Bob Loblaw Posted: December 23, 2005 at 07:46 PM (#1792021)
Ignoratio, Sox Therapists are shortening the trade to Wells for Lugo because that's all we care about.

The actual rumor is Wells to San Diego, Padres prospects to Tampa, Lugo to Boston.

Of course, if you really wanted to know that, you could just RTFA.
   26. chris p Posted: December 23, 2005 at 07:47 PM (#1792022)
Technically, he'd be watching sunsets over a gulf, not an ocean. I can't really comment on Boomer's grasp of geographical subtleties, though.

i don't see what the big deal is. you can watch the sunset over here over the cape cod bay if that's your thing.
   27. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 23, 2005 at 08:11 PM (#1792051)
Actually, Bob, All I'd have to do is RTFI. You might try growing a sense of humor; karl and chris could probably help you out there.
   28. Artie Ziff Posted: December 23, 2005 at 08:37 PM (#1792082)
No thanks on Prior to Boston. His days are surely numbered small. Ramirez should and will probably stay.
   29. Josh Posted: December 23, 2005 at 08:41 PM (#1792091)
Having romantic visions of Boomer watching the sunset over the dunes of the cape, a half-broken wine glass in his hand (no pina coladas this time) . . . not the best way to start the new year.
   30. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: December 23, 2005 at 11:13 PM (#1792287)
No thanks on Prior to Boston. His days are surely numbered small


I think I would be willing to risk it.
   31. Vance Law Revue Posted: December 24, 2005 at 01:36 AM (#1792506)
Thoughts:

- Why all the Lugo/wife beater talk? He was arrested for domestic abuse, but weren't the charges dropped shortly thereafter?

- Not that Wells wants to play for the DRays, but doesn't he live in Tampa? Or is it Miami?

- FWIW, We get sunsets over the Atlantic Ocean proper here on Nantucket , and we are still technically part of the Bay State. I can't recommend the commute to Boston, however.
   32. Bob Loblaw Posted: December 24, 2005 at 02:16 AM (#1792566)
Sorry Ignoratio. If I had realized you were trying to be funny, I'd have taken you to task for being bad at it rather than for not reading the article.

Bob Loblaw is funny. You are not.
   33. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: December 24, 2005 at 02:31 AM (#1792579)
Well, this is about as sketchy as a rumor can get, but here goes: my girlfriend's dad is neighbors with Peter Gammons on Cape Cod, and ran into him at the liqour store. The clerk was complaining about losing Johnny Damon, but Gammons said that a deal for Coco Crisp was "all but done." He didn't mention who the Sox would trade for Crisp, however. Also, Epstein will probably be coming back, although it isn't clear in what capacity.

So take that for what it's worth. Gammons has been wrong before, and this was just him talking to a clerk in a liqour store. Depending on who is traded, though, I'd be thrilled to get Crisp. And I really, really want my girlfriend's dad to become friends with Peter Gammons.
   34. Darren Posted: December 24, 2005 at 03:24 AM (#1792615)
griffy,

That is the coolest rumor ever. Girlfriend's dad's liquor store connection to Gammons! That means you've got what, about 4 people between you and Gammons, and then who knows how many between Gammons and the actual people involved. It's very fun, though, to think about.

A couple of points on that:

--I originally thought you were saying that the liquor store owner was disappointed to lose Johnny as a customer. I thought we had another DLowe situation.

--Then I thought Coco was also a big partier. Then I realized what you were saying.

--Was Gammons stopping in for some booze before writing his column? What's his pleasure?

--I have given up all rational hope of getting Crisp. They don't really have a replacement for him. Maybe if they're blown away by an offer of Marte, but even then maybe not.
   35. Darren Posted: December 24, 2005 at 03:32 AM (#1792616)
Griff, you may have found yourself a good connection! Check out the Projo blog entry I just posted.
   36. Buster Olney the Lonely Posted: December 24, 2005 at 03:54 AM (#1792631)
What's his pleasure?

wait,... don't tell me...


bushmills?
   37. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: December 24, 2005 at 03:57 AM (#1792633)
Wow, it's actually true! I'll try to get some more details from my girlfriend's dad. Gammons is also a nice guy, apparently.
   38. Darren Posted: December 24, 2005 at 04:16 AM (#1792652)
Yes, don't forget to ask about the Bushmills!
   39. Rick Vaughn Posted: December 26, 2005 at 06:30 PM (#1794514)
In case anyone was wondering, Peter Gammons does NOT participate in the wave while attending games at Fenway.

That's a fact.
   40. Voros M. Posted: December 27, 2005 at 11:20 PM (#1796284)
OP,

I think you may mistake what Boston's concept of "rebuilding" is with what we traditionally think the term means.

I try to keep mum about my time there, but I will say that one discussion I had a lot of was just what are the right ways to go about turning over a roster and taking a look at how other teams have gone about trying to do it and what the results were. There is a belief, and one I personally hold as well, that a team can "rebuild" and compete at the same time.

Whether this can be pulled off or not by the Red Sox is another discussion, but I wouldn't read a statement of "rebuilding" to imply the jettisoning of the season.
   41. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: December 27, 2005 at 11:45 PM (#1796303)
Well, this is about as sketchy as a rumor can get, but here goes: my girlfriend's dad is neighbors with Peter Gammons on Cape Cod


It could be a case of mistaken identity.

Best Regards

John

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