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The media loves him and the media decides awards, so he'd definitely be in the race regardless of actual performance. And Jim Harbaugh would have some serious competition for coach of the year.
Von Miller, even before tonight, is probably your DROY so long as he stays healthy. At 9.5 sacks now.
He has an opportunity with Tebow bringing noise to take advantage and make a big name for himself.
Is Rony Seikaly the new Franco Harris? Completely ridiculous,” Seikaly said. “Do people want a quick buck or something? I spent four years with Bernie, every single day. I know what kind of guy he is. He’s just a very helpful guy. He was the glue to Syracuse basketball. He’s still the glue 20 years later when you’re already gone. He keeps in touch with every single player. He’s that kind of guy.”
edit: wrong thread, but a respite from Tebowing is in order here.
Of course not. The crazy ass #### said by Tebow haters such as Sam miraculously exceeds the crazy ass #### said by those who love him.
You would think. But never underestimate the pure volume of crazy Tebow can generate with his glorious presence.
Who the hell brings a sell-out blitz against Tebow on 3rd and 4? Just play cover and bird dog him with the safety.
Barring injury or an epic collapse, yes, Rodgers is your MVP. But should the Broncos make the playoffs, Tebow will be talked about as an MVP candidate.
This is exactly what I like about Tebow.
Edit: Nothing personal re:Sam; just that Tebow is different, and provokes a lot of strong reactions and opinions. This season is defnintely more fun and interesting with Tebowmania.
This reminds me of nothing so much as Mike Vick's debut season in Atlanta. Except Vick was a better passer and more exciting.
It's obviously Peyton Manning, right?
And end up with no votes.
Because the NFL MVP voting is done with only 1 vote, not 10 like MLB is. Every writer in the country could have him as their #2 MVP but that would not be reflected in the results.
No, it's because he's not actually that good, and everyone knows that.
But I think a lot of it goes back to his freshman season, when Chris Leak would lead the team down the field and do all the heavy lifting, at which time Tebow would could into the game, throw that stupid jump pass, and everyone would go nuts. Maybe I'm underestimating Florida fans, but it always felt to me like there was a racial component to that. If a white quarterback had led the team down the field, and had to give way to a black quarterback for the last two yards, something tells me the affection from the crowd wouldn't have been the same. It's probably not fair to hold that against Tebow personally (and I don't really), but that's always really bugged me.
Again, as I said before, the media is in love with Tebow, and the media votes on MVP. So you will get lots of hot air from talking heads about him as an MVP candidate. I doubt if they changed the voting to MLB type 1st through 10th (all leagues should do this I think) you would see a lot of 2nd or 3rd place votes for him anyways, because the football writers that actually vote on this are a bit more grounded in reality than the blowhards. I was just illustrating that we'll never know because it doesn't work that way.
So, you're agreeing with me.
He wouldn't get MVP votes in this system or any system. He won't get talked about as an MVP candidate in anything other than an attention-grabbing way. He will get talked about as an MVP candidate by people who are fabricating such a campaign to denounce the media's love for Tebow.
The love for Tim Tebow from the media has always been outsized. But in terms of rationality, it's long been eclipsed by the hate for Tim Tebow, as numerous dimwitted posts in this thread have demonstrated.
This deserves more attention. Denver wasn't even really trying for the TD there. Even if they get the FG to tie it up, the Jets are still heavy favorites to win in OT given the complete inability of Denver to move the ball for 90% of the game. Even without taking into account Tebow's ability to move away from pressure, it's just such a terrible call. Play a conservative D, acknowledge the 75% chance they get their 4 yards, and beat them in OT.
I think it's funny that most of the animus is directed at the play-calling, along the lines of "they've got to open up the passing game and take some shots!" which ignores the minor problem of Sanchez having the arm-strength of a 7 year-old.
Yes. I'm not defending the notion that Tim Tebow, should the Broncos make the playoffs is an MVP candidate. I'm just saying that he will be discussed as one.
I don't know if that was true last night. The Jets were down to their third-string running back, who played like he shouldn't expect to get promoted to second-string any time soon. And Burress looks terrible. I can certainly understand why a guy that soft would feel the need to carry a gun.
The Jets' last play, the Hail Mary, was I think from the Denver 41, and Sanchez couldn't even get the ball into the end zone.
Holmes and Keller are better than anyone the Broncos have.
Sanchez is crap, but I thought everyone who wasn't a Jets fan realized that by now. He's essentially Trent Dilfer. Similar production, similar style of play, heck even similar irrelevant cosmetic resumes: both were 1st round picks out of CA, both had their team go out and get a veteran WR for him to throw to in their second year (Harper, Holmes), both played on teams with excellent defenses and the only way that Sanchez is winning a SB is on the back of an elite defense.
Come on man, the Jets offense is (or should be) FAR better than the Broncos. The Broncos don't have one single big-time playmaker on the team; their best receiver is Eric Decker for crying out loud! That's why Tebow has to make all the freaking big plays himself.
All Sanchez had to do to win that game last night was not do anything really stupid, like give Denver an easy gift Pick 6, which is exactly what he did. He absolutely sucks donkey balls.
And that's the thing Tebow hasn't done. He's becoming kind of a game manager QB, who isn't nearly good enough to win games on his own, but can make enough plays (in his case, as much with his legs as his arm) and avoid any killer mistakes that, coupled with a good D, can keep you in games.
It doesn't make him a great quarterback by any stretch. But it does make him better than a lot of people ever thought he'd be.
Still i fI were runnign an NFL team I would much rather have Christian Ponder than Tebow, for the long haul. I am pretty sure CP will have a better career than TT or VY, but heck I have been wrong plenty before.
That's very true. Tebow hasn't thrown an INT (or even fumbled) in his last three games.
This. I watched the game last night with a couple coworkers who are big Tebow maniacs, and they would not admit that the defense made a bigger impact than Tebow. "Tebow won the game!" Give me a ####### break, his offense scored 10 total points and he had 172 total yards. Change his name to anything else and that's an awful game. His defense scored almost as many points as his offense did. Of course, that's only because Tebow's amazing ability to run the ball allows them to control time of possession, which gives the defense a better shot. Except they actually lost time of possession yesterday.
Even worse is that they are pitching Tebow as the Moneyball option! As in, Tebow is the Chad Bradford of quarterbacking. Um, no, I don't think so. Tebow is more like a 20 game winner in baseball who has a 5.50 ERA. He's Jack Morris if Morris was way worse. ARGHHH.
Fom my perspective his coach deserves a TON of credit for basically saying "well, this guy has to play QB for me and I can't turn him into a drop back and throw guy so we're going to try it a different way." That to me is the mark of a good coach, someone willing to adapt on the fly.
Maybe Tebow can't succeed long-term but in a sport that is almost entirely small sample size the idea that they aren't developing the QB of the future seems utterly meaningless.
Plus, he's just fun to watch.
Yup. 12 possesions, 7 three and outs and one turnover on the the 2nd play of the drive. They failed to get a first down on 8 of their 12 possessions. That's terrible.
For comparison's sake, the Jets have held 3 other teams to lower scores than what they gave up against the Broncos. The Jaguars failed to get a first down on 4 of their 14 possessions. The Dolphins failed to get a first down on 6 of their 14 possesions. The Bills failed to get a first down on 6 of their 11 possessions.
That punt came after Denver passed up the possibility for an actual Tebow drive FG instead running a HB dive on 4th and inches rather than letting your running QB take it up the middle.
Of course, to my Tebowmaniac coworkers, everything bad that happens on offense is a result of John Fox's idiocy, and everything good is because of Tebow. To wit:
- Last week, they downplayed McGahee's 168 yards rushing because clearly that was set up by the threat of Tebow running.
- This week, the offense only sputtered because everyone else on the offense sucks. Also, any pass that touches a receiver's hands should be caught, even if the receiver is diving for an overthrown ball, or if the pass is two feet over their heads and one step behind them.
Obviously, I should just avoid getting sucked in, but the logical inconsistency is just mind boggling.
Steve Young argued the other day that the only way Tebow will ever have a lengthy career in the NFL is as a drop-back-and-throw guy, and he needs reps in that kind of offense. He said by doing it "a different way" Fox was stunting his development and making it unlikely Tebow will ever have a successful career. He was quite angry.
That would seem to be a massive waste of the Broncos' time and effort. It's possible, but not certain, that through enough hard work and repetition, Tebow can elevate himself to league-average pocket passer. And while that may lengthen Tebow's NFL career, I can't see how that serves the Broncos' needs, either in the long-term or the short-term. If you determine he's your QB, develop a system that highlights his unique strengths, try to correct his considerable mechanical flaws to improve his pocket passing and go from there. If you don't want to go that route, dump him and find someone who is better suited to the system you want to run.
That being said, there was definitely a racial component to the Tebow/Leak dynamic. Imagine if Cam had stayed here and played over Tebow at any point.
I was just thinking, those guys who put up the billboards in Denver must be really full of themselves right now.
Tebow's averaging 24.5 passes a game in his first 8 games, which is more than Mike Vick (22.1) and less than Donovan McNabb (28.3) and Vince Young (25.2), so it's not out of line. Even better, it's slightly more than... Steve Young (24.3).
Of course, his attempts have gone down in the last three games, but there's a reason for that. He hasn't improved as a passer.
funny, my water cooler talk was the opposite with Tebowhaters and anything that went well for Tebow was due to it being 'just the Dolphins/Raiders/Chiefs (now Jets apparently)' and anything that was bad for Tebow was because he is the crappiest qb of all time.
That seems to be the way both sides are looking at the whole Tebow thing. Neither side is at all rational.
As a generally disinterested party, I find the whole thing fascinating. And I think that Tebow has managed to put the Broncos in a very uncomfortable situation for the offseason. The team is winning with him as the starter. Yet, it's not because Tebow's playing well. But there seems to be no question that the team is playing better with him as the starter. So what do the Broncos do for next year?
Tebow's playing well but not in the sense that a "normal" QB plays well. Denver has no choice but to continue with him and hope through hard work he becomes a below average NFL passer.
This assumes Tebow hasn't been trying to improve. My guess is he has and this is where he's at. Also, Denver is supposed to try and win games. They weren't with Orton. They are with this version of Tebow. Why change?
What's so exasperating about the whole thing is that the Tebow argument hasn't progressed one iota from his senior (if not junior) year at Florida. Tebow haters thought he had horrific accuracy and couldn't fit in an NFL passing game, and it's hard to see where they're wrong. Tebow lovers have always talked about the "off-the-charts intagibles" and unprecedented desire to win, and they can now point out that he's 5-3 -- 4-1 this year -- on a team that's gone 4-14 without him during the same stretch. Everybody's been proven right, which means nobody's been proven right. He's either gotta start scoring some more points, or the offense and special teams have to drop off a little, or everybody's just going to go insane.
I understand people taking issue with his religious beliefs and not thinking he is very good but the hatred seems to go beyond that.
I am thrilled that there's an NFL thread up and running, so I don't know why I'd want to risk a hijack, but ... sigh. Tebow was a megastar in college football, the SEC, down in the Bible Belt. He's very showily religious. He appeared in a Super Bowl commercial for a pro-life organization. His fans gush about his intangibles, and they keep being told that they're wrong by NFL "elites" and by other fans who favor empirical evidence and statistical analysis.
The guy is basically the Tea Party/Fox News conservatism personified. If he didn't exist, somebody would write an Ayn Randian book about him as a political allegory.
And that he's throwing only 12 passes a day in practice.
This.
Well, this, and the god-awful play calling by "defensive genius" Rex Ryan, or whoever is responsible for bringing the house on the TD scamper. The one thing you *don't* do against Tebow is give him an option to run unencumbered. Stack the box and dare him to throw the ball.
Make him prove he can throw a strike.
That's the beauty of Tebow. He's whatever you want him to be.
On the field, I'd describe him like DA did on the page back: a really good football player who the Denver Broncos happen to line up at quarterback.
Off the field, I'd say he's a devout individual who, at this point in time, has done nothing publicly that's inconsistent with his faith (it's hard to see how building a children's hospital can be seen as a mark against him, but damn if some of you don't try).
Everything else is just one side trying to outstupid the other. And succeeding.
Hey, I've been anti-Sanchez since he was drafted.
Discuss
Funny thing is I liked him coming out of college.
Rex Ryan:
Ha.
There's a lot going on there.
When fans and analysts understand football better down the road, it will be obvious why Tebow won and Orton was a joke.
God works in mysterious ways.
There is no way to defense a running QB. Defenses are not designed to account for the QB. This is the dirty little secret the NFL hides from fans. Analysis actually supports Tebow being much better than Orton....someone up thread tried to claim Tebow was befuddling analysts....no he isn't.
In a spread option offense, it is the job of the QB to make decisions..... FYI for all you football 101 students....aka NFL fans.
And 4-1 is the last two and a half months of 2005.
I know this is your hobby-horse, but it's an absurd position. Of course there's a way to defense a running QB. You bring the safety down and treat him as a running back. Now, if he's capable of beating your man coverage on the islands now that the safety is a linebacker, then you have a serious problem. "Hi, my name is Steve Young."
Tebow has shown absolutely no ability whatsoever to beat the man coverage with his arm. So you just sit on him and dare him to throw it. If he develops a modicum of passing accuracy, *then* he becomes dangerous. Until then, it's a blown defensive scheme if you give him running lanes with corner blitzes.
I was there the whole time they were, and I never got that feeling. Chris Leak was the least racially polarizing player imaginable. Unless you mean the black fans wanted him to play over Tebow.
I will only reply to him if he's making some vaguely reasonable argument, and I will not go on for six pages about it. I am sparse on the ignore function, personally.
Whats the explaination for the tebow/broncos offense -again- terrible for 57 minutes and then pulling it out.
Hey, I actually have nodoby on ignore. But I don't bother reading LotS's posts anymore.
The Broncos went empty backfield for most of that last drive, with five wideouts. The Jets D sagged back to defend the pass, and Tebow was able to grind out quite a bit of yardage. I think 175 has a good point, too, in that Tebow (who hadn't run all that much before that drive) was maybe fresher than anyone on the Jets defense.
I always wonder why teams don't try running more out of a 4 WR spread, with a single back. The defense pretty much has to go at least nickel*, to have any chance at covering the WR, which opens up a ton of running lanes, with nobody to make an immediate tackle, if you get past the first level. If they try putting 6 or more guys into the box, audible to a pass play, and burn them with all the guys in single coverage. Works in Madden...
*And really if you have a decent passing game, they have to go dime
While I have no evidence the OC is a moron, I do believe nobody in Denver actually knows what they are doing with this "option" offense. They don't seem to set up plays very well, of course the execution is rough too.
Why wasn't Tebow running more early? I admit, I did miss most of the first half, caught the entire 2nd half. Sometimes option QBs read the defense a certain way and they end up handing of the option every time. On passing downs....perhaps there was nothing on the scramble. It is true, Denver went empty backfield on a few plays late and at least 3-4 wide, to spread em out to enable QB scrambling.
I will make a point I made earlier, this kind of offense often forces the defense to play a lot more or exclusively man coverage. It did appear the Jets were mostly in man coverage in the final drive. Certainly on the blitz on the final play. What happens in man is the corner backs are really not able to peek into the back field and they usually have their backs to the QB. This is esp true if you send your WRs deep. This is an added benefit for a QB that will scramble, he can gain many yards before the DBs react.
On another note, what Tebow is showing me about running in the NFL as a QB, elite size is more important than elite speed.
DA, what's this quote from? When was it said? Thanks.
There has only been one QB of any importance with elite speed and Vick was/is a very dangerous runner. Tebow's size is important but he moves better than almost every other QB in the league and his speed is not far off from the slower RBs. It is more Tebow's size/speed ratio which makes him dangerous.
This is a good exchange. A large part of what annoys me about this "unorthodox" offense the Broncos are using with Tebow, nobody (fans, media, analysts, etc..) can have the typical conversations, about play calling, about coaching decisions, about personnel or lack thereof, the only discussion you hear are calls to end this offensive system, "it won't" work etc..... I just want to see this type of offense rise to the level where we can talk about personnel to make it run better, bad coaching of it, bad play calling and poor execution, talk about the process to improve, etc.... Nope.
Yet scrub QBs that are lucky to play in such a "normal" offense get 1/50th the scrutiny of a Tebow.
I couldn't agree more. There is most certainly an element to the NFL that resents the massive popularity that is college football and the fact this guy had the #1 selling jersey in the NFL last year. Jealousy and insecurity. Plus this culture in the NFL about black and white, right and wrong. If you just follow the NFL a tad, it's clear there is this notion there is only one way to do things in the NFL....."the right way".
Fom my perspective his coach deserves a TON of credit for basically saying "well, this guy has to play QB for me and I can't turn him into a drop back and throw guy so we're going to try it a different way." That to me is the mark of a good coach, someone willing to adapt on the fly.
I think you missed Tebow's first two starts. Fox clearly wanted nothing to do with Tebow as QB and said so. He then proceeded to handle the situation in a most unprofessional manner for two full weeks to the point Fox was hoping to humiliate Tebow or at least hope Tebow was benched. That Fox finally did come around and make the change to the offense, shows that Fox was told Tebow was going nowhere and the fact Fox doesn't want to get fired. Either way, Fox handled this unprofessionally at the start. He might be sounding like a good guy now, but I assure you he was everything but that.
Maybe Tebow can't succeed long-term but in a sport that is almost entirely small sample size the idea that they aren't developing the QB of the future seems utterly meaningless.
Totally agree about obsession people have with developing QBs of the future. Fans are overly obsessed with building for "down the road". This is especially worthless in the NFL where #6 seeds win the Super Bowl often.
Tell that to 25 NFL teams. The entire NFL is mired in the process of "developing" their QB in false hopes their scrub can elevate to Cy Young level and win a Super Bowl.
Has anyone heard of turnovers? A turnover is similar to allowing a grand slam for a pitcher. Look into it.
You can have below average passing skills and still be the QB of a team that has a very efficient passing game. I wonder how many decades football fans will see the sport like BTF sees baseball? Geez, people even here, are stuck in a football statistical dark age.
You can have below average passing skills and still be the QB of a team that has a very efficient passing game. I wonder how many decades football fans will see the sport like BTF sees baseball? Geez, people even here, are stuck in a football statistical dark age.
True, but Vick is fragile. Vick isn't that large. Vick is actually a pocket QB and yes his great speed make him dangerous, no doubt. I was mostly saying if I decided to feature a running led offense with a run first QB, I would get size over speed every time. Yes, Tebow has an excellent combo. To the point Tebow inj rate won't be any greater than a pocket passer. This was true in college no reason to believe it won't be true in the NFL. Physically stronger running QB are very durable.
And who is stuck in the statistical dark ages?
wouldn't it be so much easier just to give the ball to sexy rexy and win or die with him on the 2.
i think there's an important distinction between running QBs and dual threat ones. even with all his faults, peak donovan mcnabb was absolutely untouchable. he could connect down the field as well as anyone, and before he got it in his head that he was gonna be a pocket passer, he was a runaway train in the open field.
tebow is nowhere near that level. with the way the ball flutters on him when he throws it more than 10 yards, he's not gonna last in this league. there's too many other serviceable options for a team to live with tebow for 16 games.
Dumbest thing they could have done. Cowboys were about to be penalized for delay of game. Jerry Jones better send Shanahan a nice gift for Xmas.
Rob Ryan, after the Broncos/Jets game. I thought it was Rex but looking it up again I read it wrong, but it's no less funny.
Is this the McNabb on Madden or something?
McNabb tried to become a pocket passer because he was so un-untouchable that his body couldn't take the pounding.
Cowboys were lined up to attempt a 39 yard FG. The play clock was at 3 seconds and they weren't fully set, so Tony Romo got up to call timeout, but the Cowboys had no timeouts left. So they should have been penalized for delay of game, except... Shanahan called timeout. No penalty, FG was good.
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