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Thursday, November 17, 2011

[OT] Q4 NFL Thread

So as what not to annoy the people in the “no, no, the fact that we exploit our players and refuse to cut them in on the cash except for dirty booster money makes us amateur and pristine!” thread.

Mike Vick was injured in the posting of this thread.

Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 17, 2011 at 01:08 PM | 2939 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 06:18 AM (#3996281)
If the Broncos make the playoffs is Tebow MVP?


The media loves him and the media decides awards, so he'd definitely be in the race regardless of actual performance. And Jim Harbaugh would have some serious competition for coach of the year.

Von Miller, even before tonight, is probably your DROY so long as he stays healthy. At 9.5 sacks now.
   102. booond Posted: November 18, 2011 at 06:56 AM (#3996291)
Von Miller, even before tonight, is probably your DROY so long as he stays healthy. At 9.5 sacks now.


He has an opportunity with Tebow bringing noise to take advantage and make a big name for himself.
   103. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: November 18, 2011 at 07:03 AM (#3996294)
I suppose this can carry on in the NCAA hoops thread (is there one?), but unlike the PSU case, nobody associated with Syracuse is believing these 'ball boys'. Boeheim was vehement in his comments. “This kid came forward and there was no one to corroborate his story. Not one. Not one. … They said I walked into Bernie’s room on the road and saw this. I have never walked into Bernie’s room on the road. This isn’t true. This just isn’t true.”

Is Rony Seikaly the new Franco Harris? Completely ridiculous,” Seikaly said. “Do people want a quick buck or something? I spent four years with Bernie, every single day. I know what kind of guy he is. He’s just a very helpful guy. He was the glue to Syracuse basketball. He’s still the glue 20 years later when you’re already gone. He keeps in touch with every single player. He’s that kind of guy.”

edit: wrong thread, but a respite from Tebowing is in order here.
   104. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 18, 2011 at 02:58 PM (#3996377)
Good lord I hate Tim Tebow with the fires of a supernova.
   105. stanmvp48 Posted: November 18, 2011 at 03:41 PM (#3996404)
I don't hate him as much as I hate the hero worship from sports writers and fans. He is magic, he is a winner, he wills the team to win.
   106. Conor Posted: November 18, 2011 at 03:49 PM (#3996409)
As much as the media loves Tebow, there's no way anyone other than Rodgers can be MVP, right?
   107. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 03:52 PM (#3996412)
As much as the media loves Tebow, there's no way anyone other than Rodgers can be MVP, right?


Of course not. The crazy ass #### said by Tebow haters such as Sam miraculously exceeds the crazy ass #### said by those who love him.
   108. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 18, 2011 at 03:52 PM (#3996415)
As much as the media loves Tebow, there's no way anyone other than Rodgers can be MVP, right?


You would think. But never underestimate the pure volume of crazy Tebow can generate with his glorious presence.

Who the hell brings a sell-out blitz against Tebow on 3rd and 4? Just play cover and bird dog him with the safety.
   109. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 03:59 PM (#3996423)
As much as the media loves Tebow, there's no way anyone other than Rodgers can be MVP, right?


Barring injury or an epic collapse, yes, Rodgers is your MVP. But should the Broncos make the playoffs, Tebow will be talked about as an MVP candidate.
   110. Kurt Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:00 PM (#3996424)
Good lord I hate Tim Tebow with the fires of a supernova.

This is exactly what I like about Tebow.

Edit: Nothing personal re:Sam; just that Tebow is different, and provokes a lot of strong reactions and opinions. This season is defnintely more fun and interesting with Tebowmania.
   111. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:08 PM (#3996434)
Edit: Nothing personal re:Sam; just that Tebow is different, and provokes a lot of strong reactions and opinions. This season is defnintely more fun and interesting with Tebowmania.


This reminds me of nothing so much as Mike Vick's debut season in Atlanta. Except Vick was a better passer and more exciting.
   112. Kurt Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:25 PM (#3996454)
Vick was definitely a better and more exciting player on the field, but all the other stuff with Tebow - the college hype, overt Christianity, near-rioting by Denver fans to get him in for Orton, the disconnect between his stats and the team results, the passionate love and hatred so many people have for him - IMO make Tebow a much more compelling story.
   113. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:29 PM (#3996456)
Tebow : over Christianity :: Vick : dog fighting
   114. JustDan Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:44 PM (#3996480)
As much as the media loves Tebow, there's no way anyone other than Rodgers can be MVP, right?


It's obviously Peyton Manning, right?
   115. JJ1986 Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:54 PM (#3996488)
But should the Broncos make the playoffs, Tebow will be talked about as an MVP candidate.


And end up with no votes.
   116. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 04:58 PM (#3996493)
And end up with no votes.


Because the NFL MVP voting is done with only 1 vote, not 10 like MLB is. Every writer in the country could have him as their #2 MVP but that would not be reflected in the results.
   117. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:05 PM (#3996500)
Because the NFL MVP voting is done with only 1 vote, not 10 like MLB is. Every writer in the country could have him as their #2 MVP but that would not be reflected in the results.


No, it's because he's not actually that good, and everyone knows that.
   118. Shredder Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:06 PM (#3996502)
I'm a Broncos fan, historically speaking, but I can't root for this team because of my dislike for Tebow. The fact that the defense is winning games for them while Tebow is getting all of the credit just makes it worse. I can't put my finger on why exactly. It's probably primarily all the religious stuff, though I know that there are a very high percentage of athletes that are religious nuts. Part of it is that I really don't like Florida.

But I think a lot of it goes back to his freshman season, when Chris Leak would lead the team down the field and do all the heavy lifting, at which time Tebow would could into the game, throw that stupid jump pass, and everyone would go nuts. Maybe I'm underestimating Florida fans, but it always felt to me like there was a racial component to that. If a white quarterback had led the team down the field, and had to give way to a black quarterback for the last two yards, something tells me the affection from the crowd wouldn't have been the same. It's probably not fair to hold that against Tebow personally (and I don't really), but that's always really bugged me.
   119. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:09 PM (#3996506)
No, it's because he's not actually that good, and everyone knows that.


Again, as I said before, the media is in love with Tebow, and the media votes on MVP. So you will get lots of hot air from talking heads about him as an MVP candidate. I doubt if they changed the voting to MLB type 1st through 10th (all leagues should do this I think) you would see a lot of 2nd or 3rd place votes for him anyways, because the football writers that actually vote on this are a bit more grounded in reality than the blowhards. I was just illustrating that we'll never know because it doesn't work that way.
   120. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:18 PM (#3996519)
I doubt if they changed the voting to MLB type 1st through 10th (all leagues should do this I think) you would see a lot of 2nd or 3rd place votes for him anyways, because the football writers that actually vote on this are a bit more grounded in reality than the blowhards.


So, you're agreeing with me.

He wouldn't get MVP votes in this system or any system. He won't get talked about as an MVP candidate in anything other than an attention-grabbing way. He will get talked about as an MVP candidate by people who are fabricating such a campaign to denounce the media's love for Tebow.

The love for Tim Tebow from the media has always been outsized. But in terms of rationality, it's long been eclipsed by the hate for Tim Tebow, as numerous dimwitted posts in this thread have demonstrated.
   121. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:28 PM (#3996532)
Who the hell brings a sell-out blitz against Tebow on 3rd and 4? Just play cover and bird dog him with the safety.



This deserves more attention. Denver wasn't even really trying for the TD there. Even if they get the FG to tie it up, the Jets are still heavy favorites to win in OT given the complete inability of Denver to move the ball for 90% of the game. Even without taking into account Tebow's ability to move away from pressure, it's just such a terrible call. Play a conservative D, acknowledge the 75% chance they get their 4 yards, and beat them in OT.
   122. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:30 PM (#3996534)
I'm surprised I'm not seeing more general hate being directed towards Mark "Sanchize" Sanchez. This dude f*cking sucks even worse than Tebow does, especially when you take into account he's playing with much more offensive talent around him than Tebow is right now.
   123. jmurph Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#3996541)
I'm surprised I'm not seeing more general hate being directed towards Mark "Sanchize" Sanchez


I think it's funny that most of the animus is directed at the play-calling, along the lines of "they've got to open up the passing game and take some shots!" which ignores the minor problem of Sanchez having the arm-strength of a 7 year-old.
   124. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:41 PM (#3996545)
So, you're agreeing with me.


Yes. I'm not defending the notion that Tim Tebow, should the Broncos make the playoffs is an MVP candidate. I'm just saying that he will be discussed as one.
   125. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:41 PM (#3996546)
This dude f*cking sucks even worse than Tebow does, especially when you take into account he's playing with much more offensive talent around him than Tebow is right now.


I don't know if that was true last night. The Jets were down to their third-string running back, who played like he shouldn't expect to get promoted to second-string any time soon. And Burress looks terrible. I can certainly understand why a guy that soft would feel the need to carry a gun.
   126. nick swisher hygiene Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:42 PM (#3996548)
I'm trying to think of the most frustrating option possible for Tebow haters.....he will "lead" the Broncos to a division title; a series of close wins will culminate with an improbable Super Bowl victory over the Packers, a game in which Tebow is tragically killed by a shot to the head while diving for the winning 4th quarter TD. True believers will insist he would have been the greatest of all time, and there will be no way to prove them wrong. The NFL will introduce fundamental rule changes. The terms "Pre-Tebow Era" and "Post-Tebow Era" will become standard.
   127. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:44 PM (#3996551)
I think it's funny that most of the animus is directed at the play-calling, along the lines of "they've got to open up the passing game and take some shots!" which ignores the minor problem of Sanchez having the arm-strength of a 7 year-old.


The Jets' last play, the Hail Mary, was I think from the Denver 41, and Sanchez couldn't even get the ball into the end zone.
   128. jmurph Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:48 PM (#3996557)
To my (totally inexpert) eyes, he doesn't even have great strength on short routes. Everything is lofted in with a maximum arc. I find him to be a likable guy but, as a Patriots fan, I'm totally okay with him being mediocre or worse.
   129. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:50 PM (#3996561)
I don't know if that was true last night. The Jets were down to their third-string running back, who played like he shouldn't expect to get promoted to second-string any time soon. And Burress looks terrible. I can certainly understand why a guy that soft would feel the need to carry a gun.


Holmes and Keller are better than anyone the Broncos have.

Sanchez is crap, but I thought everyone who wasn't a Jets fan realized that by now. He's essentially Trent Dilfer. Similar production, similar style of play, heck even similar irrelevant cosmetic resumes: both were 1st round picks out of CA, both had their team go out and get a veteran WR for him to throw to in their second year (Harper, Holmes), both played on teams with excellent defenses and the only way that Sanchez is winning a SB is on the back of an elite defense.
   130. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:53 PM (#3996567)
I don't know if that was true last night.

Come on man, the Jets offense is (or should be) FAR better than the Broncos. The Broncos don't have one single big-time playmaker on the team; their best receiver is Eric Decker for crying out loud! That's why Tebow has to make all the freaking big plays himself.

All Sanchez had to do to win that game last night was not do anything really stupid, like give Denver an easy gift Pick 6, which is exactly what he did. He absolutely sucks donkey balls.
   131. stanmvp48 Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:55 PM (#3996572)
Agree with the comments about the blitz. A sack still leaves them in field goal range. Also was about to make the same point about the Hail Mary not reaching the end zone.
   132. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 05:58 PM (#3996574)
All Sanchez had to do to win that game last night was not do anything really stupid, like give Denver an easy gift Pick 6, which is exactly what he did. He absolutely sucks donkey balls.


And that's the thing Tebow hasn't done. He's becoming kind of a game manager QB, who isn't nearly good enough to win games on his own, but can make enough plays (in his case, as much with his legs as his arm) and avoid any killer mistakes that, coupled with a good D, can keep you in games.

It doesn't make him a great quarterback by any stretch. But it does make him better than a lot of people ever thought he'd be.
   133. Bitter Mouse Posted: November 18, 2011 at 07:49 PM (#3996686)
Tebow mania reminds me of Vince Young. One side said terrible pro-QB, the other said "Winner." When people talk about intangibles (as if they were in fact tangible) and being a winner I am automatically a skeptic. Of course Vince had other issues, so I don't completely rule out Tebow becomming a legit cromulent QB (sorry I am not quite there yet, but he has some definite skills that do apply at the NFL level).

Still i fI were runnign an NFL team I would much rather have Christian Ponder than Tebow, for the long haul. I am pretty sure CP will have a better career than TT or VY, but heck I have been wrong plenty before.
   134. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 18, 2011 at 08:21 PM (#3996717)
And that's the thing Tebow hasn't done. He's becoming kind of a game manager QB, who isn't nearly good enough to win games on his own, but can make enough plays (in his case, as much with his legs as his arm) and avoid any killer mistakes that, coupled with a good D, can keep you in games.


That's very true. Tebow hasn't thrown an INT (or even fumbled) in his last three games.
   135. sardonic Posted: November 18, 2011 at 08:52 PM (#3996743)
I'm a Broncos fan, historically speaking, but I can't root for this team because of my dislike for Tebow. The fact that the defense is winning games for them while Tebow is getting all of the credit just makes it worse.


This. I watched the game last night with a couple coworkers who are big Tebow maniacs, and they would not admit that the defense made a bigger impact than Tebow. "Tebow won the game!" Give me a ####### break, his offense scored 10 total points and he had 172 total yards. Change his name to anything else and that's an awful game. His defense scored almost as many points as his offense did. Of course, that's only because Tebow's amazing ability to run the ball allows them to control time of possession, which gives the defense a better shot. Except they actually lost time of possession yesterday.

Even worse is that they are pitching Tebow as the Moneyball option! As in, Tebow is the Chad Bradford of quarterbacking. Um, no, I don't think so. Tebow is more like a 20 game winner in baseball who has a 5.50 ERA. He's Jack Morris if Morris was way worse. ARGHHH.
   136. Shredder Posted: November 18, 2011 at 08:56 PM (#3996747)
Even worse is that they are pitching Tebow as the Moneyball option! As in, Tebow is the Chad Bradford of quarterbacking.
Maybe Tebow would better off if he started throwing side-arm.
   137. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 08:57 PM (#3996749)
I was going to try to type out the bass line for Under Pressure but I'm not going to embarrass myself that way. I have many other, better ways to embarrass myself.
   138. stanmvp48 Posted: November 18, 2011 at 09:18 PM (#3996759)
In fairness, he did read the defense and the situation correctly on the final touchdown. But 135 is correct the defense and the two missed field goals were crucial.
   139. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: November 18, 2011 at 09:21 PM (#3996761)
Hell, saying the offense scored 10 points overstates its contribution; the field goal came after a 13-yard punt that had the Broncos in field goal range from the beginning of the possession. The defense and special teams consistently set the offense up in Jet territory, only to see the offense fail to move the ten or twelve yards required to kick another field goal.
   140. jmurph Posted: November 18, 2011 at 09:27 PM (#3996766)
Just to make sure the Jets are getting their time in the spotlight, and also to make sure we don't credit either team's defense too much: I turned the game on midway through the 2nd quarter. What followed, from both teams, was easily the worst display of organized football I've ever seen in my life. Punt, punt, punt, punt, punt, punt. It's possible I'm exaggerating, but I'm reasonably sure both teams punted eleven times each in the 2nd quarter. Holy god both offenses are horrible.
   141. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: November 18, 2011 at 09:32 PM (#3996767)
I'm not really a football fan but this Tebow stuff fascinates me. I understand people taking issue with his religious beliefs and not thinking he is very good but the hatred seems to go beyond that. Just listening to some of the talking heads it seems like NFL "insiders" are offended that he is even being offered the opportunity to succeed in a different way.

Fom my perspective his coach deserves a TON of credit for basically saying "well, this guy has to play QB for me and I can't turn him into a drop back and throw guy so we're going to try it a different way." That to me is the mark of a good coach, someone willing to adapt on the fly.

Maybe Tebow can't succeed long-term but in a sport that is almost entirely small sample size the idea that they aren't developing the QB of the future seems utterly meaningless.

Plus, he's just fun to watch.
   142. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 09:40 PM (#3996773)
Hell, saying the offense scored 10 points overstates its contribution; the field goal came after a 13-yard punt that had the Broncos in field goal range from the beginning of the possession. The defense and special teams consistently set the offense up in Jet territory, only to see the offense fail to move the ten or twelve yards required to kick another field goal.


Yup. 12 possesions, 7 three and outs and one turnover on the the 2nd play of the drive. They failed to get a first down on 8 of their 12 possessions. That's terrible.

For comparison's sake, the Jets have held 3 other teams to lower scores than what they gave up against the Broncos. The Jaguars failed to get a first down on 4 of their 14 possessions. The Dolphins failed to get a first down on 6 of their 14 possesions. The Bills failed to get a first down on 6 of their 11 possessions.
   143. SouthSideRyan Posted: November 18, 2011 at 09:47 PM (#3996778)
Hell, saying the offense scored 10 points overstates its contribution; the field goal came after a 13-yard punt that had the Broncos in field goal range from the beginning of the possession. The defense and special teams consistently set the offense up in Jet territory, only to see the offense fail to move the ten or twelve yards required to kick another field goal.


That punt came after Denver passed up the possibility for an actual Tebow drive FG instead running a HB dive on 4th and inches rather than letting your running QB take it up the middle.
   144. stanmvp48 Posted: November 18, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#3996799)
I just noticed that the NFL dispensed a bunch of fines to the Bears and Lions. The Stafford and Moore incident occurred on an interception return which should have been ruled dead at the time of the interception. Of course the moron announcers chose to praise the job the refs were doing.
   145. sardonic Posted: November 18, 2011 at 10:19 PM (#3996807)
For comparison's sake, the Jets have held 3 other teams to lower scores than what they gave up against the Broncos. The Jaguars failed to get a first down on 4 of their 14 possessions. The Dolphins failed to get a first down on 6 of their 14 possesions. The Bills failed to get a first down on 6 of their 11 possessions.


Of course, to my Tebowmaniac coworkers, everything bad that happens on offense is a result of John Fox's idiocy, and everything good is because of Tebow. To wit:

- Last week, they downplayed McGahee's 168 yards rushing because clearly that was set up by the threat of Tebow running.

- This week, the offense only sputtered because everyone else on the offense sucks. Also, any pass that touches a receiver's hands should be caught, even if the receiver is diving for an overthrown ball, or if the pass is two feet over their heads and one step behind them.

Obviously, I should just avoid getting sucked in, but the logical inconsistency is just mind boggling.
   146. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 18, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#3996813)
Fom my perspective his coach deserves a TON of credit for basically saying "well, this guy has to play QB for me and I can't turn him into a drop back and throw guy so we're going to try it a different way." That to me is the mark of a good coach, someone willing to adapt on the fly.


Steve Young argued the other day that the only way Tebow will ever have a lengthy career in the NFL is as a drop-back-and-throw guy, and he needs reps in that kind of offense. He said by doing it "a different way" Fox was stunting his development and making it unlikely Tebow will ever have a successful career. He was quite angry.
   147. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 10:39 PM (#3996818)
Steve Young argued the other day that the only way Tebow will ever have a lengthy career in the NFL is as a drop-back-and-throw guy, and he needs reps in that kind of offense. He said by doing it "a different way" Fox was stunting his development and making it unlikely Tebow will ever have a successful career.


That would seem to be a massive waste of the Broncos' time and effort. It's possible, but not certain, that through enough hard work and repetition, Tebow can elevate himself to league-average pocket passer. And while that may lengthen Tebow's NFL career, I can't see how that serves the Broncos' needs, either in the long-term or the short-term. If you determine he's your QB, develop a system that highlights his unique strengths, try to correct his considerable mechanical flaws to improve his pocket passing and go from there. If you don't want to go that route, dump him and find someone who is better suited to the system you want to run.
   148. Daunte Vicknabbit! Posted: November 18, 2011 at 10:45 PM (#3996821)
As one of our resident Gator alumni/students, i will say that i am delighted by all the haterade even as i take my saber-cynicism to the table.

That being said, there was definitely a racial component to the Tebow/Leak dynamic. Imagine if Cam had stayed here and played over Tebow at any point.
   149. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 10:46 PM (#3996823)
Of course, to my Tebowmaniac coworkers, everything bad that happens on offense is a result of John Fox's idiocy, and everything good is because of Tebow.


I was just thinking, those guys who put up the billboards in Denver must be really full of themselves right now.

He said by doing it "a different way" Fox was stunting his development and making it unlikely Tebow will ever have a successful career. He was quite angry.


Tebow's averaging 24.5 passes a game in his first 8 games, which is more than Mike Vick (22.1) and less than Donovan McNabb (28.3) and Vince Young (25.2), so it's not out of line. Even better, it's slightly more than... Steve Young (24.3).

Of course, his attempts have gone down in the last three games, but there's a reason for that. He hasn't improved as a passer.
   150. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: November 18, 2011 at 10:51 PM (#3996826)
Obviously, I should just avoid getting sucked in, but the logical inconsistency is just mind boggling.


funny, my water cooler talk was the opposite with Tebowhaters and anything that went well for Tebow was due to it being 'just the Dolphins/Raiders/Chiefs (now Jets apparently)' and anything that was bad for Tebow was because he is the crappiest qb of all time.
   151. Gaylord Perry the Platypus (oi!) Posted: November 18, 2011 at 10:57 PM (#3996835)
funny, my water cooler talk was the opposite with Tebowhaters and anything that went well for Tebow was due to it being 'just the Dolphins/Raiders/Chiefs (now Jets apparently)' and anything that was bad for Tebow was because he is the crappiest qb of all time.

Of course, to my Tebowmaniac coworkers, everything bad that happens on offense is a result of John Fox's idiocy, and everything good is because of Tebow. To wit:

- Last week, they downplayed McGahee's 168 yards rushing because clearly that was set up by the threat of Tebow running.

- This week, the offense only sputtered because everyone else on the offense sucks. Also, any pass that touches a receiver's hands should be caught, even if the receiver is diving for an overthrown ball, or if the pass is two feet over their heads and one step behind them.

That seems to be the way both sides are looking at the whole Tebow thing. Neither side is at all rational.

As a generally disinterested party, I find the whole thing fascinating. And I think that Tebow has managed to put the Broncos in a very uncomfortable situation for the offseason. The team is winning with him as the starter. Yet, it's not because Tebow's playing well. But there seems to be no question that the team is playing better with him as the starter. So what do the Broncos do for next year?
   152. booond Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:02 PM (#3996840)
Yet, it's not because Tebow's playing well. But there seems to be no question that the team is playing better with him as the starter. So what do the Broncos do for next year?


Tebow's playing well but not in the sense that a "normal" QB plays well. Denver has no choice but to continue with him and hope through hard work he becomes a below average NFL passer.
   153. booond Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:05 PM (#3996841)
Steve Young argued the other day that the only way Tebow will ever have a lengthy career in the NFL is as a drop-back-and-throw guy, and he needs reps in that kind of offense. He said by doing it "a different way" Fox was stunting his development and making it unlikely Tebow will ever have a successful career. He was quite angry.


This assumes Tebow hasn't been trying to improve. My guess is he has and this is where he's at. Also, Denver is supposed to try and win games. They weren't with Orton. They are with this version of Tebow. Why change?
   154. Bad Doctor Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:11 PM (#3996846)
The fact that the defense is winning games for them while Tebow is getting all of the credit just makes it worse.

What's so exasperating about the whole thing is that the Tebow argument hasn't progressed one iota from his senior (if not junior) year at Florida. Tebow haters thought he had horrific accuracy and couldn't fit in an NFL passing game, and it's hard to see where they're wrong. Tebow lovers have always talked about the "off-the-charts intagibles" and unprecedented desire to win, and they can now point out that he's 5-3 -- 4-1 this year -- on a team that's gone 4-14 without him during the same stretch. Everybody's been proven right, which means nobody's been proven right. He's either gotta start scoring some more points, or the offense and special teams have to drop off a little, or everybody's just going to go insane.

I understand people taking issue with his religious beliefs and not thinking he is very good but the hatred seems to go beyond that.

I am thrilled that there's an NFL thread up and running, so I don't know why I'd want to risk a hijack, but ... sigh. Tebow was a megastar in college football, the SEC, down in the Bible Belt. He's very showily religious. He appeared in a Super Bowl commercial for a pro-life organization. His fans gush about his intangibles, and they keep being told that they're wrong by NFL "elites" and by other fans who favor empirical evidence and statistical analysis.

The guy is basically the Tea Party/Fox News conservatism personified. If he didn't exist, somebody would write an Ayn Randian book about him as a political allegory.
   155. DA Baracus Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:16 PM (#3996848)
This assumes Tebow hasn't been trying to improve.


And that he's throwing only 12 passes a day in practice.
   156. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:29 PM (#3996858)
The guy is basically the Tea Party/Fox News conservatism personified. If he didn't exist, somebody would write an Ayn Randian book about him as a political allegory.


This.

Well, this, and the god-awful play calling by "defensive genius" Rex Ryan, or whoever is responsible for bringing the house on the TD scamper. The one thing you *don't* do against Tebow is give him an option to run unencumbered. Stack the box and dare him to throw the ball.
   157. booond Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:36 PM (#3996863)
Stack the box and dare him to throw the ball.


Make him prove he can throw a strike.
   158. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:36 PM (#3996864)
The guy is basically the Tea Party/Fox News conservatism personified. If he didn't exist, somebody would write an Ayn Randian book about him as a political allegory.


That's the beauty of Tebow. He's whatever you want him to be.

On the field, I'd describe him like DA did on the page back: a really good football player who the Denver Broncos happen to line up at quarterback.

Off the field, I'd say he's a devout individual who, at this point in time, has done nothing publicly that's inconsistent with his faith (it's hard to see how building a children's hospital can be seen as a mark against him, but damn if some of you don't try).

Everything else is just one side trying to outstupid the other. And succeeding.
   159. AJMcCringleberry Posted: November 19, 2011 at 12:03 AM (#3996877)
Sanchez is crap, but I thought everyone who wasn't a Jets fan realized that by now.

Hey, I've been anti-Sanchez since he was drafted.
   160. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: November 19, 2011 at 12:26 AM (#3996889)
Tim Tebow <=> Jeff Francoeur

Discuss
   161. DA Baracus Posted: November 19, 2011 at 12:32 AM (#3996894)
Hey, I've been anti-Sanchez since he was drafted.


Funny thing is I liked him coming out of college.

Rex Ryan:

I don’t like it because it’s college football. We’re getting a lot of two tight ends blocking for empty sets. Who would have ever thought that? This is the NFL. Those teams don’t win.


Ha.
   162. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:00 AM (#3996903)
Tebow's personal history and baggage interests me not a whit (and I generally hate the Broncos), but his on-field story is clearly the most fascinating thing in the NFL this year: He had tremendous success in college and a lot of people loved him, except that he doesn't seem to have any of the tools necessary to be a successful NFL quarterback, and his coach resents having to put him on the field, except that the same coach totally reinvented the offense around him, and Tebow himself hasn't played that well, except that he has shown flashes of brilliance especially at the very end of games, and the Denver offense hasn't been very good, except that they're now 4-1 with Tebow at the helm.

There's a lot going on there.
   163. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:01 AM (#3996905)
I can't put my finger on why exactly.


When fans and analysts understand football better down the road, it will be obvious why Tebow won and Orton was a joke.
   164. booond Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:02 AM (#3996906)
There's a lot going on there.


God works in mysterious ways.
   165. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:04 AM (#3996907)
Well, this, and the god-awful play calling by "defensive genius" Rex Ryan, or whoever is responsible for bringing the house on the TD scamper. The one thing you *don't* do against Tebow is give him an option to run unencumbered. Stack the box and dare him to throw the ball.


There is no way to defense a running QB. Defenses are not designed to account for the QB. This is the dirty little secret the NFL hides from fans. Analysis actually supports Tebow being much better than Orton....someone up thread tried to claim Tebow was befuddling analysts....no he isn't.
   166. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:06 AM (#3996909)
Last week, they downplayed McGahee's 168 yards rushing because clearly that was set up by the threat of Tebow running.


In a spread option offense, it is the job of the QB to make decisions..... FYI for all you football 101 students....aka NFL fans.
   167. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:19 AM (#3996915)
Tim Tebow <=> Jeff Francoeur


And 4-1 is the last two and a half months of 2005.
   168. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:24 AM (#3996918)
There is no way to defense a running QB.


I know this is your hobby-horse, but it's an absurd position. Of course there's a way to defense a running QB. You bring the safety down and treat him as a running back. Now, if he's capable of beating your man coverage on the islands now that the safety is a linebacker, then you have a serious problem. "Hi, my name is Steve Young."

Tebow has shown absolutely no ability whatsoever to beat the man coverage with his arm. So you just sit on him and dare him to throw it. If he develops a modicum of passing accuracy, *then* he becomes dangerous. Until then, it's a blown defensive scheme if you give him running lanes with corner blitzes.
   169. mike f Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:28 AM (#3996919)
That being said, there was definitely a racial component to the Tebow/Leak dynamic.

I was there the whole time they were, and I never got that feeling. Chris Leak was the least racially polarizing player imaginable. Unless you mean the black fans wanted him to play over Tebow.
   170. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:31 AM (#3996921)
Can we just all agree to put LotS on ignore? I was enjoying this thread...
   171. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:33 AM (#3996923)
Can we just all agree to put LotS on ignore? I was enjoying this thread...


I will only reply to him if he's making some vaguely reasonable argument, and I will not go on for six pages about it. I am sparse on the ignore function, personally.
   172. zenbitz Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:49 AM (#3996932)
Im really iritated i forgot to dvr the broncos/jets game (aka tivo the tebow). But from the highlites and boxscore... Im not sure i missed much.

Whats the explaination for the tebow/broncos offense -again- terrible for 57 minutes and then pulling it out.
   173. zenbitz Posted: November 19, 2011 at 01:54 AM (#3996935)
Actually i see that LotS explained this as "Tebow ran" on the last drive... So why wasnt he running all game? Seems to me that either the Jets DC failed by changing his defense to preserve the win, or the Broncs OC is a moron.
   174. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: November 19, 2011 at 02:05 AM (#3996940)
I am sparse on the ignore function, personally.


Hey, I actually have nodoby on ignore. But I don't bother reading LotS's posts anymore.
   175. stanmvp48 Posted: November 19, 2011 at 02:08 AM (#3996941)
Might there be a little bit of an end of game advantage for a 250 pound running quaterback?
   176. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 19, 2011 at 02:28 AM (#3996943)
Actually i see that LotS explained this as "Tebow ran" on the last drive... So why wasnt he running all game? Seems to me that either the Jets DC failed by changing his defense to preserve the win, or the Broncs OC is a moron.


The Broncos went empty backfield for most of that last drive, with five wideouts. The Jets D sagged back to defend the pass, and Tebow was able to grind out quite a bit of yardage. I think 175 has a good point, too, in that Tebow (who hadn't run all that much before that drive) was maybe fresher than anyone on the Jets defense.
   177. stanmvp48 Posted: November 19, 2011 at 03:03 AM (#3996953)
I remember thinking at the end of the San Diego game that it didn't look like anyone much felt like tackling him. Same feeling about Vince Young against USC
   178. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: November 19, 2011 at 03:04 AM (#3996954)
The Broncos went empty backfield for most of that last drive, with five wideouts. The Jets D sagged back to defend the pass, and Tebow was able to grind out quite a bit of yardage. I think 175 has a good point, too, in that Tebow (who hadn't run all that much before that drive) was maybe fresher than anyone on the Jets defense.


I always wonder why teams don't try running more out of a 4 WR spread, with a single back. The defense pretty much has to go at least nickel*, to have any chance at covering the WR, which opens up a ton of running lanes, with nobody to make an immediate tackle, if you get past the first level. If they try putting 6 or more guys into the box, audible to a pass play, and burn them with all the guys in single coverage. Works in Madden...

*And really if you have a decent passing game, they have to go dime
   179. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:03 AM (#3996982)
or the Broncs OC is a moron.


While I have no evidence the OC is a moron, I do believe nobody in Denver actually knows what they are doing with this "option" offense. They don't seem to set up plays very well, of course the execution is rough too.

Why wasn't Tebow running more early? I admit, I did miss most of the first half, caught the entire 2nd half. Sometimes option QBs read the defense a certain way and they end up handing of the option every time. On passing downs....perhaps there was nothing on the scramble. It is true, Denver went empty backfield on a few plays late and at least 3-4 wide, to spread em out to enable QB scrambling.

I will make a point I made earlier, this kind of offense often forces the defense to play a lot more or exclusively man coverage. It did appear the Jets were mostly in man coverage in the final drive. Certainly on the blitz on the final play. What happens in man is the corner backs are really not able to peek into the back field and they usually have their backs to the QB. This is esp true if you send your WRs deep. This is an added benefit for a QB that will scramble, he can gain many yards before the DBs react.

On another note, what Tebow is showing me about running in the NFL as a QB, elite size is more important than elite speed.
   180. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:04 AM (#3996983)
Rex Ryan:

I don’t like it because it’s college football. We’re getting a lot of two tight ends blocking for empty sets. Who would have ever thought that? This is the NFL. Those teams don’t win.



Ha.


DA, what's this quote from? When was it said? Thanks.
   181. booond Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:10 AM (#3996988)
On another note, what Tebow is showing me about running in the NFL as a QB, elite size is more important than elite speed.


There has only been one QB of any importance with elite speed and Vick was/is a very dangerous runner. Tebow's size is important but he moves better than almost every other QB in the league and his speed is not far off from the slower RBs. It is more Tebow's size/speed ratio which makes him dangerous.
   182. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:13 AM (#3996991)
122. Strasburg is here (Joey B.) Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:30 AM (#3996534)
I'm surprised I'm not seeing more general hate being directed towards Mark "Sanchize" Sanchez. This dude f*cking sucks even worse than Tebow does, especially when you take into account he's playing with much more offensive talent around him than Tebow is right now.
123. jmurph Posted: November 18, 2011 at 11:36 AM (#3996541)

I'm surprised I'm not seeing more general hate being directed towards Mark "Sanchize" Sanchez



I think it's funny that most of the animus is directed at the play-calling, along the lines of "they've got to open up the passing game and take some shots!" which ignores the minor problem of Sanchez having the arm-strength of a 7 year-old.


This is a good exchange. A large part of what annoys me about this "unorthodox" offense the Broncos are using with Tebow, nobody (fans, media, analysts, etc..) can have the typical conversations, about play calling, about coaching decisions, about personnel or lack thereof, the only discussion you hear are calls to end this offensive system, "it won't" work etc..... I just want to see this type of offense rise to the level where we can talk about personnel to make it run better, bad coaching of it, bad play calling and poor execution, talk about the process to improve, etc.... Nope.

Yet scrub QBs that are lucky to play in such a "normal" offense get 1/50th the scrutiny of a Tebow.
   183. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:25 AM (#3996998)
Just listening to some of the talking heads it seems like NFL "insiders" are offended that he is even being offered the opportunity to succeed in a different way.


I couldn't agree more. There is most certainly an element to the NFL that resents the massive popularity that is college football and the fact this guy had the #1 selling jersey in the NFL last year. Jealousy and insecurity. Plus this culture in the NFL about black and white, right and wrong. If you just follow the NFL a tad, it's clear there is this notion there is only one way to do things in the NFL....."the right way".


Fom my perspective his coach deserves a TON of credit for basically saying "well, this guy has to play QB for me and I can't turn him into a drop back and throw guy so we're going to try it a different way." That to me is the mark of a good coach, someone willing to adapt on the fly.

I think you missed Tebow's first two starts. Fox clearly wanted nothing to do with Tebow as QB and said so. He then proceeded to handle the situation in a most unprofessional manner for two full weeks to the point Fox was hoping to humiliate Tebow or at least hope Tebow was benched. That Fox finally did come around and make the change to the offense, shows that Fox was told Tebow was going nowhere and the fact Fox doesn't want to get fired. Either way, Fox handled this unprofessionally at the start. He might be sounding like a good guy now, but I assure you he was everything but that.


Maybe Tebow can't succeed long-term but in a sport that is almost entirely small sample size the idea that they aren't developing the QB of the future seems utterly meaningless.

Totally agree about obsession people have with developing QBs of the future. Fans are overly obsessed with building for "down the road". This is especially worthless in the NFL where #6 seeds win the Super Bowl often.
   184. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:28 AM (#3997000)

That would seem to be a massive waste of the Broncos' time and effort.


Tell that to 25 NFL teams. The entire NFL is mired in the process of "developing" their QB in false hopes their scrub can elevate to Cy Young level and win a Super Bowl.
   185. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:30 AM (#3997002)
Yet, it's not because Tebow's playing well. But there seems to be no question that the team is playing better with him as the starter


Has anyone heard of turnovers? A turnover is similar to allowing a grand slam for a pitcher. Look into it.
   186. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:32 AM (#3997003)
Denver has no choice but to continue with him and hope through hard work he becomes a below average NFL passer.


You can have below average passing skills and still be the QB of a team that has a very efficient passing game. I wonder how many decades football fans will see the sport like BTF sees baseball? Geez, people even here, are stuck in a football statistical dark age.
   187. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:33 AM (#3997004)
Denver has no choice but to continue with him and hope through hard work he becomes a below average NFL passer.


You can have below average passing skills and still be the QB of a team that has a very efficient passing game. I wonder how many decades football fans will see the sport like BTF sees baseball? Geez, people even here, are stuck in a football statistical dark age.
   188. LionoftheSenate (Brewers v A's World Series) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:42 AM (#3997007)
There has only been one QB of any importance with elite speed and Vick was/is a very dangerous runner.


True, but Vick is fragile. Vick isn't that large. Vick is actually a pocket QB and yes his great speed make him dangerous, no doubt. I was mostly saying if I decided to feature a running led offense with a run first QB, I would get size over speed every time. Yes, Tebow has an excellent combo. To the point Tebow inj rate won't be any greater than a pocket passer. This was true in college no reason to believe it won't be true in the NFL. Physically stronger running QB are very durable.
   189. booond Posted: November 19, 2011 at 04:44 AM (#3997008)
You can have below average passing skills and still be the QB of a team that has a very efficient passing game. I wonder how many decades football fans will see the sport like BTF sees baseball? Geez, people even here, are stuck in a football statistical dark age.


And who is stuck in the statistical dark ages?
   190. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: November 19, 2011 at 05:06 AM (#3997021)
I believe Tebow's only significant injury in college (prepared to be corrected) was when he sat in the pocket and was hit in the helmet at Kentucky (concussion).
   191. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: November 19, 2011 at 06:37 AM (#3997080)
Um nfl teams cant defend a running qb? Watch every game vick played against the bears. Also i cannot wait till tebow gets to meet urlacher briggs and peppers it wil be a beat the likes ofcwhich a red headed step child has never seen on a sunday. It will not be a good day for broncos fans but for the bears it will be like its xmas mark my words the bears will absolutely crush him
   192. steagles Posted: November 20, 2011 at 10:24 PM (#3998007)
i think mike shanahan is trying to lose this game. there's absolutely no reason to kick the extra point with 14 seconds left. best case scenario, you tie the game, go to overtime, win the coin toss, drive 80 yards down the field and score on the first possession.

wouldn't it be so much easier just to give the ball to sexy rexy and win or die with him on the 2.
Um nfl teams cant defend a running qb? Watch every game vick played against the bears. Also i cannot wait till tebow gets to meet urlacher briggs and peppers it wil be a beat the likes ofcwhich a red headed step child has never seen on a sunday. It will not be a good day for broncos fans but for the bears it will be like its xmas mark my words the bears will absolutely crush him


i think there's an important distinction between running QBs and dual threat ones. even with all his faults, peak donovan mcnabb was absolutely untouchable. he could connect down the field as well as anyone, and before he got it in his head that he was gonna be a pocket passer, he was a runaway train in the open field.

tebow is nowhere near that level. with the way the ball flutters on him when he throws it more than 10 yards, he's not gonna last in this league. there's too many other serviceable options for a team to live with tebow for 16 games.
   193. steagles Posted: November 20, 2011 at 10:39 PM (#3998010)
i think mike shanahan is trying to lose this game.
seriously, is anyone watching this? why the #### did he call a timeout there?
   194. DA Baracus Posted: November 20, 2011 at 10:46 PM (#3998012)
why the #### did he call a timeout there?


Dumbest thing they could have done. Cowboys were about to be penalized for delay of game. Jerry Jones better send Shanahan a nice gift for Xmas.
   195. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 20, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#3998014)
We don't get that game here, but I'm delighted to see Shanahan fall on his face. Between coaching his offensive linemen to injure the opposing defensive players and starting those ridiculous "ice the kicker" timeouts, Shanahan is a nasty little piece of bad sportsmanship.
   196. DA Baracus Posted: November 20, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#3998015)
DA, what's this quote from? When was it said? Thanks.


Rob Ryan, after the Broncos/Jets game. I thought it was Rex but looking it up again I read it wrong, but it's no less funny.
   197. McCoy Posted: November 20, 2011 at 11:15 PM (#3998021)
i think there's an important distinction between running QBs and dual threat ones. even with all his faults, peak donovan mcnabb was absolutely untouchable. he could connect down the field as well as anyone, and before he got it in his head that he was gonna be a pocket passer, he was a runaway train in the open field.

Is this the McNabb on Madden or something?

McNabb tried to become a pocket passer because he was so un-untouchable that his body couldn't take the pounding.
   198. stanmvp48 Posted: November 20, 2011 at 11:33 PM (#3998027)
what happened in the Wash game? didn't see it
   199. DA Baracus Posted: November 20, 2011 at 11:42 PM (#3998030)
what happened in the Wash game? didn't see it


Cowboys were lined up to attempt a 39 yard FG. The play clock was at 3 seconds and they weren't fully set, so Tony Romo got up to call timeout, but the Cowboys had no timeouts left. So they should have been penalized for delay of game, except... Shanahan called timeout. No penalty, FG was good.
   200. JJ1986 Posted: November 21, 2011 at 01:08 AM (#3998076)
Norv Turner also trying to lose. Calls a timeout and then throws a challenge flag a few seconds later. Loses and ends up losing two timeouts.
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