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I suppose Baker would count, but the whole argument is predicated on emotion - he pulled back Ortiz to hand him the ball, the Angels got so mad they scored 37 runs in two innings.
But Williams directly cost us the game, that is about as close as you can get to objective, clear fact.
Tebow was pretty bad, Simms was praising him for throwing the ball away and missing receivers by only five yards.
But as we know, the media loves building narratives and prizes that over the facts. They get to be utterly brazen about it in football because the sporting public is more ignorant about football than any other sport and it's not even close.
I fully admit to being a total in-the-tank fanboy, but from what I saw he got the hell beat out of him, on the road in the pouring rain against a great defense. I thought he did okay, and certainly didn't see him giving anything away.
That's still better than Joe Buck inventing things like tipped passes to excuse Manning from completely missing receivers.
Huh? Are you saying Coughlin has some special ability to make the Patriots win the AFC?
Maybe if one day you find yourself facing a charging horde led by Justin Smith, you might view Manning's performance tonight in a slightly different light. Given the weather and the ferocity of the 49ers pass rush, I don't think he acquitted himself too badly.
AFAIC these were two sublime games, marred only by the fact that they were determined by a missed chip shot and a pair of turnovers. And even though I was rooting for the Ravens, this is still probably the best possible Super Bowl matchup. I like the Giants and the 3, but even more I like the idea of a rematch of SB 42, especially since once again the Giants are essentially playing with the house's money.
I'm surprised more people don't wonder why the Giants haven't won more regular season games in the Coughlin/Eli era. They missed the playoffs the last two seasons, and have only won any playoff games in the two seasons when they got to the Super Bowl.
They have had some great defensive line players, impressive-at-times running backs, memorable receivers, etc.
This team beat the Patriots in NE this year - where Brady hadn't lost since 2006 - but got their asses kicked twice by the 5-11 Redskins.
Proffer: Could this franchise have been closer to an old-school dynasty?
I'm just thinking out loud.
Kyle Williams just killed the Niners. Though I didn't think there was "conclusive" evidence to overturn the call on the muffed punt.
And Goldson twice prevented teammates from intercepting Manning.
That was my take. He was far from great, 58 attempts for 300 yards is not great production, but he was getting the #### beat out of him: 6 sacks, dozen or more hard hits, 20+ hurries.
Besides, this game was not about how clutch, great, or even just good Manning was. This game was about 2 ST turnovers and the fact that Alex Smith got a major case of the tight ass in the 4th quarter.
How about a WR that can get some separation down field and on the outside. I know Smith was pretty awful today, especially in the 4th quarter, but he didn't exactly have super bowl caliber receivers. All the giants had to do was put an extra man on Davis and set in 6-7 man zones.
The most annoying thing about that is if he immediately reacted, he probably would have gotten the ball back. he basically tried to fake out the refs.
It probably tapped his knee, but I thought we were looking for conclusive evidence to overturn.
I'm going from memory now, but I thought he started to react and then realized it was fruitless and would only call attention to the fact that he thought the ball had touched him.
The ref explained it quite clearly: The Niners would have gotten another shot only if the Giants had scored a field goal after receiving the opening kickoff of the overtime.
If the Giants had scored a touchdown after they won the coin flip, it was over, just like Denver-Pittsburgh in the first round.
But once the Giants failed to score at all on their opening possession, the rules reverted to traditional sudden death.
And if both teams had kicked field goals on their first OT possessions, then you'd also revert to sudden death after that.
They have had some great defensive line players, impressive-at-times running backs, memorable receivers, etc.
This team beat the Patriots in NE this year - where Brady hadn't lost since 2006 - but got their asses kicked twice by the 5-11 Redskins.
Injuries go a long way towards explaining the Giants's inconsistency this year. What surprised me is how well they played against some good opponents before their roster returned to full strength. But then when they lost that second game to the Deadskins (who promptly got thumped at home by the Vikings right after that) I wouldn't have dreamed that they could turn it around like they have. But then when I think back on 2007 I'm wondering whether Coughlin's channeling Knute Rockne in his motivational speeches and that he saves his best ones for the postseason.
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That was my take. He was far from great, 58 attempts for 300 yards is not great production, but he was getting the #### beat out of him: 6 sacks, dozen or more hard hits, 20+ hurries.
I wonder just how many road games against top ranked opponents in the postseason the Giants have to win before our professional commentators start to realize that this might be a much better team than they've realized.
I thought this was supposed to be Michael Crabtree, who must have been hurt or something since Alex Smith pretended Crabtree didn't exist.
It might be that the Giants keep winning postseason road games because any other teams at their skill level keep getting byes and playing home games.
Does that - and the Redskins issue, where they also got their ass kicked at home by them in Week 15 of the 2007-08 title year - reflect well on Coughlin?
I'm still digesting that thought.
Multiple studies by real stat people, not punks with Excel, have proven this item
So folks keep that in mind when seeing the Giants recover 5 fumbles in two games
Manning was 32 for 58, 316 yards.
58 attempts is a huge number of pass attempts, especially by the winner of the game. It ties Manning for 6th in a single playoff game with Jim Kelly in Super Bowl XXVI.
Of the top 10 playoff games by pass attempts before Manning's win today, only 1 was by the game-winning quarterback. Of the top 20, only 4 were by game-winning quarterbacks.
In a single game, from 1960 to 2011, in the playoffs, sorted by descending Pass Attempts.
Pass Rk Player Age Date Lg Tm Opp Result G W Day Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Y/A AY/A 1 Steve Young* 34-087 1996-01-06 NFL SFO GNB L 17-27 17 0 Sat 32 65 49.2% 328 0 2 51.3 5.05 3.66 2 Bernie Kosar 23-039 1987-01-03 NFL CLE NYJ W 23-20 17 0 Sat 33 64 51.6% 489 1 2 69.1 7.64 6.55 3 Dan Marino* 34-106 1995-12-30 NFL MIA BUF L 22-37 17 0 Sat 33 64 51.6% 422 2 3 63.4 6.59 5.11 4 Drew Brees 32-364 2012-01-14 NFL NOR SFO L 32-36 18 0 Sat 40 63 63.5% 462 4 2 93.5 7.33 7.17 5 Drew Brees 31-358 2011-01-08 NFL NOR SEA L 36-41 17 18 Sat 39 60 65.0% 404 2 0 95.4 6.73 7.40 6 Jim Kelly* 31-346 1992-01-26 NFL BUF N WAS L 24-37 19 0 Sun 28 58 48.3% 275 2 4 44.8 4.74 2.33 7 Randall Cunningham 25-279 1988-12-31 NFL PHI CHI L 12-20 17 0 Sat 27 54 50.0% 407 0 3 52.0 7.54 5.04 8 Jeff George 28-023 1995-12-31 NFL ATL GNB L 20-37 17 0 Sun 30 54 55.6% 366 2 2 73.5 6.78 5.85 9 Jim Kelly* 29-326 1990-01-06 NFL BUF CLE L 30-34 17 0 Sat 28 54 51.9% 405 4 2 85.8 7.50 7.31 10 Neil ODonnell 28-196 1995-01-15 NFL PIT SDG L 13-17 18 0 Sun 32 54 59.3% 349 1 0 84.6 6.46 6.83 11 Troy Aikman* 28-055 1995-01-15 NFL DAL SFO L 28-38 18 0 Sun 30 53 56.6% 380 2 3 68.1 7.17 5.38 12 Dan Fouts* 30-206 1982-01-02 NFL SDG MIA W 41-38 17 0 Sat 33 53 62.3% 433 3 1 99.0 8.17 8.45 13 Danny White 31-320 1983-12-26 NFL DAL RAM L 17-24 17 0 Mon 32 53 60.4% 330 2 3 67.3 6.23 4.43 14 Tom Brady 24-169 2002-01-19 NFL NWE OAK W 16-13 17 0 Sat 32 52 61.5% 312 0 1 70.4 6.00 5.13 15 Warren Moon* 38-044 1995-01-01 NFL MIN CHI L 18-35 17 0 Sun 29 52 55.8% 292 2 2 68.7 5.62 4.65 16 Vinny Testaverde 35-065 1999-01-17 NFL NYJ DEN L 10-23 18 0 Sun 31 52 59.6% 356 0 2 64.3 6.85 5.12 17 Tom Brady 29-164 2007-01-14 NFL NWE SDG W 24-21 18 0 Sun 27 51 52.9% 280 2 3 57.6 5.49 3.63 18 Neil Lomax 23-325 1983-01-08 NFL STL GNB L 16-41 10 0 Sat 32 51 62.7% 385 2 2 82.6 7.55 6.57 19 Donovan McNabb 28-073 2005-02-06 NFL PHI N NWE L 21-24 19 0 Sun 30 51 58.8% 357 3 3 75.4 7.00 5.53 20 Richard Todd 28-038 1981-12-27 NFL NYJ BUF L 27-31 17 0 Sun 28 51 54.9% 377 2 4 59.0 7.39 4.65Source: Pro Football Reference
That should be adjusted per minute, no?
Very few of these games went OT....
That should be adjusted per minute, no?
Very few of these games went OT....
With 8 minutes of OT, that 58 could be adjusted down to 51 on a 60 minute basis, right? That's good for 17th on the list; still noteworthy IMO.
Eckersley, 1988 World Series game 1.
(Possibly the Stanford band in the 1982 Big Game as well.)
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As for wide receivers: DeSean Jackson seems like a reasonable target for a Niners free agent if they can get him at a reasonable price.
The question is whether you consider the last four or five games more predictive than the last 19 games.
The fourth quarter?!? He made 3 actual throws all freakin game! The niners blew this by giving him the ball almost twice as often as they handed it to Gore. The whole season, they did a good job of understanding what the strengths of their football team were. And they showed up yesterday, apparently thinking they were the same team that they were in the fourth quarter against the Saints.
It looked pretty damned conclusive to me. The closeup they showed after the commercial showed that the ball changed direction and spin significantly.
And this season, they were outscored during the regular season.
What were the thoughts on the first Davis TD? I thought he stepped out of bounds, but like I said, I am a Giants fan. I came away from that game hugely impressed with the Niners D. They were unbelievable.
Davis was on "tippy-toes" - you would think that if one part of your foot would be out of bounds, you must land the whole foot, but in recent years some receivers have managed to avoid that. Santonio Holmes is one....
In football, always go with recent performance. Given the frequency of injuries, the team on the field today often bears little resemblance to the one 5 months ago.
Agreed, I saw the slow-mo replay and there was no doubt in my mind that it went off Williams's knee.
I thought it was more conclusive at regular speed. The ball changes direction.
It might be that the Giants keep winning postseason road games because any other teams at their skill level keep getting byes and playing home games.
That kind of begs a rather obvious question: If Green Bay and the 49ers aren't at the Giants' skill level, what other NFC teams might have given them a better test in the playoffs? They beat the two top seeds in their own stadiums. Should they have been forced to beat the 1985 Bears in Soldier Field and the 1991 Redskins in RFK to prove that they deserve to be in the Super Bowl?
And BTW you do realize, don't you, that the Packers were previously unbeaten at home, and that the 49ers had previously lost only one home game, a 3-point game in September? And you do realize, don't you, that the Giants were riddled with key injuries for much of the season? Am I missing something here?
Even if this sequence had happened on the first possession of OT, the game still would have been over with the Giants' FG. The Niners had a shot at possession when Williams fumbled the ball. Once he coughed it up, we'd have been in sudden death (this is why the onside kick is a higher percentage play in OT - the receiving team has the chance at possession the rule requires, while the kicking team still gets possession if they fail to recover the kick and the opponent kicks an FG).
The out of bounds line, unlike the goal line, does not extend vertically. You have to touch it. (Just another example of the inconsistency in football rules).
After listening to a bit of Mike and Mike on the way in, I'm dreading these two weeks of Eligasm. Yes, he was under considerable duress and he played pretty damn tough. OTOH, his team gained about 15 total yards in the second half and OT (when he's so magical), so his bravery wasn't exactly leading to much in the way of offense. And I swear if I have to listen to the inevitable "Is he better than Peyton?" nonsense, I might just go on a multistate killing spree.
I don't think the statistics bear that out. But if we're going by recent performance, New England has won 11 straight games.
In football, as in other sports, in predicting the result of a single game, the coin is your friend.
I thought on the whole, Eli played a pretty good game, but you have Trent Dilfer going on ESPN and saying he played as good as a QB could play or something like that. Yikes.
The conditions were against him, and the Niners D was ferocious in that second half/OT. I think the only way either team was scoring was off of a short field.
And twice Eli tried to give SF the short field, but that Niners DB wasn't going to let it happen.
He played fine. And there's no doubt the Niners' defense was pretty damn spectacular. But the other Dilfer special that this SB is going to feature "the two best quarterbacks (apologies to Aaron and Drew)," is absurd.
He looked to be on his tippy toes, as amazed as I was to see that. The call was proper, and the non-reversal was proper.
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I will defer to those who think the ball definitely touched Williams's knee. I think the angles they showed us were bad. Yes, it kind of looked like it did, but I'd like to be more certain than that.
I actually was not 100% clear that Brady didn't score a TD on the sneak. I think that reversal was fine, but I hate when they show us a still photo of what looks like the knee on the turf, because that doesn't really paint a full picture; you need to see the knee moving and then stop, which a still photo doesn't show you. But I do agree with the reversal, I guess.
Concur. Just because the Giants won a close game does not mean that Eli was Clutch God Again. In fact, he didn't do anything special; he tried to work his magic -- such as the pass to Cruz early in OT -- but he wasn't able to. And he was getting creamed back there. They won because Williams's fumble gave them field position at the end. I fail to see what Eli had to do with that.
I like Eli a lot, and think the Patriots will have their hands full in two weeks. But are people just completely incapable of seeing that a close win in the 4th quarter or OT doesn't necessarily mean that Eli was clutch?
That's what everyone does, but I disagree.
And not that this means anything, but I was in an ESPN pick'em league for fun (we picked every game of the year against the spread), and one of my main strategies was picking against recent performance, because I think that's a big part of where the line is set. I beat all 10 of my friends in the league, and finished in the 96the percentile of all gazillion ESPN players.
Though I think in the end there's no real way to consistently beat the lines.
Yes, but they were all against JV and pop warner teams. Just ask Lion of the Senate and he'll tell you.
Mostly agree, but the TD to Manningham was a perfectly placed bullet, just when it looked like they were going to fail again.
That's what everyone does, but I disagree.
Well, if you had really good info on health I think that would be better. In some sense, recent performance is a proxy for health.
e.g., the current Giant defense bears little resemblance to the unit from the first half. A lot of that is better health.
For those unaware.
It was mentioned in the CFB thread, but it genarted no discussion. It was weird, though it was probably the good sense to neither ignore the recent history and engage in glowing praise nor kick a man to his grave.
Wait, that doesn't sound like us.
Morty twice trolled about this in the Starlin Castro thread, specifically invoking my name to get a response, but I didn't rise to the bait.
I think it's a sad time for his family (obviously). The Sandusky issue is separate, and I don't see a need to criticize a man after he just passed. We got the standard "Paterno was a great man" stories, which I see as perfectly routine on the heels of someone passing, and not something to take issue with.
I did note when the lung cancer story first broke that it seemed to have been downplayed by his family for whatever (harmless) reason. I know of no lung cancer that is not serious.
He's also a lousy writer, though VMMY. I found him to be really weak at Football Outsiders and so did many others.
My grandon met him by chance. He told me he came across as a jerk.
but that was a 10 minute encounter in Las Vegas.
For those unaware.
Barnwell is a self-hating Giant fan, who constantly moaned about how awful it was too root for the Giants and who picked them to get the first overall pick in 2007.
Whatever his faults, the linked article is worth reading.
"They basically played something resembling a draw with the Niners on Sunday, winning on the slightest bounce of a fumbled ball. That doesn't mean that the Giants were lucky to win; it means that these two teams were so close that it was probably going to take a lucky bounce for one team or the other to get the victory. "
is perfectly put.
Personally, I hope that he plays and that he's 100%, or close to it. The last thing the Patriots and their fans need is a tailor-made excuse served up for them on a silver platter that they can throw out there if they lose again.
where are you seeing that?
###### Pollard
1) it hit his knee
2) niners need to do something about their offense. Line, receivers. Alex Smith is who he is, and i think he played well enough
To get another chance at the helm with some OL/WR upgrades and a full off season with a repeat OC
3) Barnwell analyzes the NFCC game well, but i think hes wrong about the future of the Niners. That said they have a brutal schedule next year and their edivision is improving
Two comments:
1. Better 2 weeks of Eligasm than 2 minutes of Tebowmania
2. Does Eli look like he has ever even had an . . . .
This is non-news either way. The backup tight end, whoever he is, can do just as well as Gronkowski.
Brady and Belichik made Gronkowski. They can make another one just as easily. And Hernandez. And Welker.
This is clear as day.
Rockets GM Daryl Morey. Sounds like Bill Walsh saying there are really only 100 NFL players and the rest are interchangeable parts. Of course fan boy GMs think all NFL players are magical. They aren't.
On Jeremy Lin.
MIRACLE AT THE MEADOWLANDS
Eagles vs. Giants at the Meadowlands, November 19, 1978
(Kurt is done with Tom Nawrocki's new blog. Nothing personal.)
Getting to watch NFL games this old (legally) is almost as hard as getting into Fort Knox.
Plus the place Tom is getting his games (I have a relatively good idea where) is more like a tape-trading club of old Deadheads than a piracy for profit operation like MegaUpload.
There have been some games made available on iTunes, but they're all (a) recent and (b) well-known. I prefer watching older, more obscure games, for a variety of reasons.
The Miracle at the Meadowlands game is famous, but I decided to write about it anyway because I thought it might attract some eyeballs, and because I really didn't know very much about it aside from that one play. The next game I'm writing about is a Redskins-Saints battle from 1982, which I doubt anyone here is too familiar with.
Does it feature a standout performance by league MVP Mark Moseley?
Ah, the ancient Aztec-Jesuit grudge match.
Chiefs/Broncos: Elway vs Montana with some Wade Phillips comical reactions as the undercard!
Not that this would be a new practice... but if the allegations about Williams are true, what is the argument that he shouldn't be banned from the league? Frankly, the same might go for Payton, for turning a blind eye to it.
None that I can see. The league apparently has already said they are going to give out worse punishments than in the spygate case - 500k fine to Belichick, 250k to the Patriots, loss of first round draft pick. So that's the floor. I would set the over/under at 1 season suspension for Williams, and 6 games for Payton, reduced to 4 on appeal. Plus some sort of punishment for the Saints, probably fines and draft pick loss again...
Oh, and my I point out that the whole '-gate' suffix for any scandal thing is about 20 years past it's sell-by date...
"Why does the name of every scandal end with 'gate'"?
Then again, I was still a year from being born when the break-in occurred, and I know, so... well, yeah, they probably know.
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