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Thursday, November 17, 2011

[OT] Q4 NFL Thread

So as what not to annoy the people in the “no, no, the fact that we exploit our players and refuse to cut them in on the cash except for dirty booster money makes us amateur and pristine!” thread.

Mike Vick was injured in the posting of this thread.

Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: November 17, 2011 at 01:08 PM | 2939 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   2901. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: May 02, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4122193)
There's too much money in the pro game for it to change radically and quickly; however I'd be surprised if football as we know it is played below the college level in ten or fifteen years.
   2902. Kiko Sakata Posted: May 02, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4122225)
I'd be surprised if football as we know it is played below the college level in ten or fifteen years.


Well, if "football as we know it" isn't played below the college level in 15 years, doesn't that have a HUGE impact on how football gets played AT the college level in the 5-10 years after that, and doesn't that then filter up to affect how football gets played at the pro level 4-5 years after that. If kids stop playing tackle football before they get to college, that will dramatically affect the caliber of football played at the NFL level as soon as the last HS football players start aging out of the league. (I think we're getting ahead of ourselves, and I'm not sure I buy the starting point here; I just think its logical conclusion is the end of the NFL "as we know it")
   2903. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: May 02, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4122237)
Why? Boxing, and now MMA, are sports built around inducing concussions, and they continue on.


I'd like to think that only depraved subhumans follows those "sports," but of course I'd be wrong. Then again, the same is coming to seem more appropriate with the NFL as well.
   2904. Sean Forman Posted: May 02, 2012 at 11:14 PM (#4122266)
I think the canary in the coal mine will be small colleges. If you start to see non-D1 football schools dropping football, I think that will indicate the tide is going to turn in a big way on the NFL. For example, will the Ivies drop football? Penn had a player kill himself 2-3 years ago and he had CTE. The fact we are even discussing this here means to me it is going to end of up badly for the NFL.
   2905. baudib Posted: May 03, 2012 at 01:11 AM (#4122310)
it is going to end of up badly for the NFL.


Not sure what you mean by badly...In a way it is already bad. If you're talking about legal problems, they seem to be in a heap of trouble with dozens of pending lawsuits. Keep in mind, though, that the NFL was found guilt in an anti-trust case and paid $3.

   2906. toratoratora Posted: May 03, 2012 at 01:47 AM (#4122319)
I think the canary in the coal mine will be small colleges. If you start to see non-D1 football schools dropping football, I think that will indicate the tide is going to turn in a big way on the NFL. For example, will the Ivies drop football? Penn had a player kill himself 2-3 years ago and he had CTE. The fact we are even discussing this here means to me it is going to end of up badly for the NFL.


Go further.
What happens when insurance companies won't cover injuries sustained during Pop Warner football? Or when already underfunded High School's can't afford to carry coverage?
Sooner or later (if they start losing enough money re concussions) the big insurance companies are gonna start treating football like other extreme sports where the chances of serious injury loom. When that comes coverage is going to become massively expensive or not offered at all.
It's not the top levels to worry about-the big schools and the NFL have the money-but the lower echelons where the money isn't big and funds are already tight. That, and an awakening on the part of parents to the dangers that their kids face if the play football.
I strongly think football will be heading the way of boxing soon...still a sport but relegated to minor status...which is good because then baseball can snag the Elway's and other players who would have otherwise played pro football
   2907. Into the Void Posted: May 03, 2012 at 02:03 AM (#4122322)
They will have to drastically reform the sport in the next 10-15 years, though. Odds are very high it won't continue to be the perpetually growing money machine business it's become.


Isn't padding and helmet design consistently developing? Obviously that doesn't help with neck/spinal/head on head hits, but a part of me feels like the only way these concussions will (at least partially) be decreased is by what the latest developments in helmet 'technology' dictates...the NFL certainly isn't going to do anything that jeopardizes their profits like limit player activity or hard hits (which is, obviously, a huge part of the appeal of football).
   2908. Forsch 10 From Navarone (Dayn) Posted: May 03, 2012 at 02:03 AM (#4122324)
1. Cut back to 14 games. (*)
2. Impose weight limits on players.
3. Eliminate kickoffs.
4. No playing after, say, age 31.

5. Go back to thinner pads and leather helmets.

All good ideas, but I don't think the age limit could ever hold up. Also, I think thicker pads make guys slower, and thus reduce impact.

Weight limits would be huge, since they'd reduce physical strain, and heart disease, plus reduce the incentives to use PEDs, but they'd have to be position specific. Have no idea if that's legal.

How about a limit on the number of plays per game a player can participate in?


To all these good ideas, I would also add getting rid of the three-point stance. That's where so much of the sub-concussive stuff happens, especially along the line of scrimmage.

Death to football as it presently exists. I'm done watching it until there's drastic, top-to-bottom changes. I played in high school in football-drunk Mississippi, but my son will never play a down.
   2909. billyshears Posted: May 03, 2012 at 11:21 AM (#4122490)
I've heard that ex-cricket players also exhibit a high rate of suicide. Not sure if that's a general issue with former athletes. Anyone know of any stats on baseball players?


I did a paper on this for a seminar I took in college. When I wrote the paper, no significant studies has been done, though that may have changed in the interim. Based on the research that was available at the time though, it was clear that for a professional athlete, retiring is an incredibly traumatic event. It is essentially the death of an athlete's entire identity and support system at the same time. I would be surprised if you didn't see a higher rate of suicide in ex-athletes, similar to how I would be surprised if you didn't see a higher rate of suicide in individuals who had lost a spouse in an accident.
   2910. Gary Truth Serum Posted: May 03, 2012 at 11:39 AM (#4122508)
It is essentially the death of an athlete's entire identity and support system at the same time. I would be surprised if you didn't see a higher rate of suicide in ex-athletes, similar to how I would be surprised if you didn't see a higher rate of suicide in individuals who had lost a spouse in an accident.

That's why I'm wondering if it's premature to attribute Seau's suicide to CTE. That could have been it, sure, but maybe he was unable to adjust to life as a former superstar, regardless of any physical deterioration. His three day retirement in 2006 is potential evidence of the latter.
   2911. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 03, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4122512)
That's why I'm wondering if it's premature to attribute Seau's suicide to CTE. That could have been it, sure, but maybe he was unable to adjust to life as a former superstar, regardless of any physical deterioration. His three day retirement in 2006 is potential evidence of the latter.

Except, by shooting himself in the chest (rather than the head) he's at least indicating that he thought CTE, or other brain trauma had something to do with it.
   2912. Flynn Posted: May 03, 2012 at 11:54 AM (#4122523)
I wonder what the concussion issue is going to do for rugby in America.

Rugby is very capable of blowing it, but rugby (which has been growing for 20 years now) could become the new soccer. It's a much easier sport on your noggin than football and the techniques in rugby tend to avoid contact to the head.
   2913. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: May 03, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4122536)
I played in high school in football-drunk Mississippi,


Interestingly, the way that state's 2 SEC schools tend to play, drunk is the operative word.
   2914. puck Posted: May 03, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4122555)
Rugby is very capable of blowing it, but rugby (which has been growing for 20 years now) could become the new soccer. It's a much easier sport on your noggin than football and the techniques in rugby tend to avoid contact to the head.


At one point when I was trying to learn the difference between Union and League, I saw that the tackling rules were different... think Union requires the arms to be around the player (so no shoulder only blows) but League doesn't require this...is this right? And which tackling rule does sevens use? With the extra room to run around, I could see sevens players taking hard, football-like hits. Maybe not head-to-head, but it sounds like those are not the only problem for football players.
   2915. Flynn Posted: May 03, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4122566)
There's not much tackling at all in sevens, to be honest.

Rugby (union) players are taught to tackle below the waist, with their shoulder leading, and wrapping their arms around the attacking player. You could get hit in the head with a knee, and I've seen that happen, but concussions are very infrequent in rugby.

Rugby league's tackling style is much more based on tackling high, as they can't get possession of the ball any other way. You see guys getting leveled in league more, which might not be good for your head.
   2916. billyshears Posted: May 03, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4122586)
I actually got a concussion playing rugby in college. I played a lot of fullback though and on a few occasions when fielding kicks I ended up with all of the fun of 15 guys trying to kill me with none of the fun of blockers trying to prevent them from doing so. This probably isn't how it's supposed to work, but we were not a very organized squad.
   2917. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 03, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4122627)
An SI.com writer on Seau:

In March, we spoke about the perception that commissioner Roger Goodell was making the game too soft with his enhanced enforcement of player safety rules. “It has to happen,” he said. “Those who are saying the game is changing for the worse, well, they don’t have a father who can’t remember his name because of the game. I’m pretty sure if everybody had to wake with their dad not knowing his name, not knowing his kids’ name, not being able to function at a normal rate after football, they would understand that the game needs to change. If it doesn’t, there are going to be more players, more great players, being affected by the things that we know of and aren’t changing. That’s not right.”

You'd think he was talking about himself as the dad who can't remember his kids' name.
   2918. Sean Forman Posted: May 03, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4122635)
The belief of greater safety in rugby is largely a myth.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-10991566

Concussions Less in Rugby

While many people believe that the concussion rate among rugby players is less than football, this is actually inaccurate information. A 2008 study conducted on high school, university, club and Rugby Union players in South Africa showed that rugby seems to have some of the same issues as the NFL does when it comes to concussions. The study showed that concussions still occur at a rate similar to football and that many go unrecognized or untreated.
   2919. Gaelan Posted: May 03, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4122690)
I played both football and rugby in high school. The only concussion I ever had was playing rugby.

That said, I still agree that rugby is a lot safer than football. It isn't just the different tackling methods. The speed of the game is entirely different.
   2920. Eddo Posted: May 03, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4122699)
Except, by shooting himself in the chest (rather than the head) he's at least indicating that he thought CTE, or other brain trauma had something to do with it.

This could very well be true, but I would caution against assuming the logic used by someone who's on the brink of suicide.
   2921. puck Posted: May 03, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4122730)
Rugby league's tackling style is much more based on tackling high, as they can't get possession of the ball any other way.


I suppose this is offtopic (in an offtopic thread?) but I wonder what the difference is. Do you mean in league if you tackle high, you can hold the player up and strip the ball, but this is not allowed in union?
   2922. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: May 03, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4122737)
Have any post-career rugby players come down with the kind of early-middle-age dementia that people like Mike Webster and Fred McNeil have? If not, either individual football players get more concussions, or it isn't merely concussions that cause CTE.
   2923. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 03, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4122740)
This could very well be true, but I would caution against assuming the logic used by someone who's on the brink of suicide.

Sure, but it's a very odd way to commit suicide by gun, and there's precedent of another NLFer who committed suicide the same way, to preserve his brain for testing.
   2924. Flynn Posted: May 03, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4122896)

I suppose this is offtopic (in an offtopic thread?) but I wonder what the difference is. Do you mean in league if you tackle high, you can hold the player up and strip the ball, but this is not allowed in union?


No, it's allowed, just it's nowhere as good a move as tackling the player on the deck and contesting the ball in the ruck.

Rugby league defenders also hold the player up high because it slows down his ability to play the ball, allowing the defense time to set itself. In union that's better achieved by contesting the ball in the ruck and forcing attackers to have to clear out the ruck.
   2925. baudib Posted: May 05, 2012 at 08:04 PM (#4124411)
Art Schlicter, who barely had a cup of coffee in the NFL (202 career passes), has brain damage. He supposedly suffered 15 concussions playing football in high school and college.

Jonathan Tamari of Philly.com writes about how Seau's death felt different from other stories of ex-NFL players' deaths because he was a big star who only recently retired. Tamari also mentions the case of a young player named Owen Thomas who played at Penn and committed suicide in 2010. Thomas suffered from CTE.

One of the frightening things about Owen’s case, though, is that he was never diagnosed with a concussion. Doctors believe that it doesn’t take an injury that severe to contribute to CTE. Even sub-concussive blows, accumulated over time, might do it. Those are the kinds of blows we see on every play and every practice in the NFL, when offensive and defensive linemen collide at the snap. In training camp it happens day after day after day. It’s an inextricable part of the game and the culture of football, and it may have worse consequences than we know.


It shouldn't be a shock, but as STEAGLES has pointed out, concussions can happen without a blow to the head (Eric Lindros comes to mind). Running full speed into 250-350-pound guys running at full speed is not healthy.

Is it time for EVERYONE to give up football? The idea that players can be done with football by their early 20s like Schlicter and Thomas and still suffer lethal brain damage -- even without being diagnosed with a concussion -- is truly frightening. If you wouldn't let your son play football, is it OK to cheer on other people's sons as they kill themselves in the name of entertainment?
   2926. zenbitz Posted: May 07, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4125357)
The new football: http://usaknights.org
   2927. baudib Posted: May 09, 2012 at 01:28 AM (#4127130)
Cris Carter admits putting bounties on players.

Carter says it was to protect himself:

"Bill Romanowski -- he told me he was going to take me out before the game, warmups. No problem. (He said,) 'I'm gonna end your career Carter.' No problem. "I put a little change on his head before the game. Protect myself. Protect my family. That's the league that I grew up in."

When asked if he was the only one doing that, Carter responded: "Hell, no.
   2928. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 09, 2012 at 09:43 PM (#4204903)
foles is having a pretty okay preseason debut. 6/8, 144 yards, 2 TDs.
   2929. McCoy Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4204921)
They need to slow the players down and rigorously enforce the drug policy.
   2930. Kurt Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:26 PM (#4204930)
And how do you propose to slow the players down without heavily drugging them?
   2931. McCoy Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4204936)
Rule changes and equipment changes plus a rigorously enforced drug policy.
   2932. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:36 PM (#4204946)
equipment changes


100-lb. shoulder pads would slow 'em down, dammit.
   2933. McCoy Posted: August 09, 2012 at 10:40 PM (#4204953)
I was thinking 100-lb shoes.
   2934. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 20, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4213234)
so, for the 2nd week in a row, mike vick has been taken out of the game because of hits he's taken IN the pocket, in the PRESEASON.


on the somewhat brighter side, my guy's looking good so far, coming on in relief. you gotta like jon gruden saying that foles is a great athlete considering that was the biggest knock on him after he was taken in the draft.
   2935. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 20, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4213351)
it's only the 2nd game of the preseason, but from what i can tell, the eagles are the absolute best team in the NFL from players 30-90. if there's ever some catastrophe where the best 30 players from every NFL team are ruled ineligible for competition, the eagles will immediately become the class of the NFL.
   2936. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 22, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4215214)
so, looking at foles' final stat line from monday, 18/28, 217 yards, 2 TDs, 1 INT, plus a 24 yard scramble.

he led 4 scoring drives, totaling 24 points, though only 1 of those was him moving the ball 80 yards down the field, finishing the drive with a touchdown. the other 2 touchdowns were scored off of 2nd quarter turnovers that cut the field down to 20-30 yards.

as noted, he had a 24 yard scramble that gave the team a first down in the 2 minute drill. that's kind of notable because his athleticism was a major question mark, though it was one that i thought was overblown, coming out of the combine.


the interception that he threw occurred with <10 seconds left in the first half. he was taking a shot at the endzone from ~30 yards out, but he underthrew the ball and it was picked off by a safety. the read was okay, but considering the field position and time remaining in the half, he needed to make sure that throw was well out of reach of any patriot defender.


all in all, that was a pretty solid performance.

   2937. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 22, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4215227)
and i'd just like say a word about people saying that michael vick is just being michael vick.

last year, when he was concussed, he was concussed in the pocket. last year, when he had the rib injury, that was injured in the pocket. in the first game this preseason, when he hurt his hand, that occurred in the pocket.

and in this past game, when he was hit in the ribs again, he was hit in the pocket.

specifically, when people say that this last injury was just michael vick being michael vick, i think that's completely missing what's happening here. vick was hit because he was trying to stay in the pocket and make a play with his arm. if michael vick was just being michael vick, he'd have flushed out of the pocket when he first felt the pressure coming from the middle, and he'd have run downfield for 60 yards and a touchdown.


the same thing happened with mcnabb in the 2nd half of his career here. he wanted to be more than a running quarterback, but when you announce that to the world, it allows your opponents to pin their ears back and blitz to their heart's content.

but when your quarterback is a threat to break out of the pocket and gain 60 yards with his feet, that really hinders the defense's ability to attack. and when you combine that ability to scramble with the best deep passing game in the NFL, that means that if you run the right plays, once vick breaks containment, he's likely to be 30 yards away from the closest defender.

which brings us to another thing, the eagles weren't blowing the top off of opposing defenses last year. because desean jackson was sulking without a contract, and because of the upheaval in the offensive line, the eagles were running a lot of 2 TE max-protect type formations and that compacted the field in such a way that made it hard to string 10 play, 80 yard drives together.


basically, when you have desean jackson and jeremy maclin, teams have to defend 50 yards downfield. and when you have lesean mccoy, defenses have to defend sideline to sideline. and when you add the ability of jason avant and brent celek to move the chains, what you should get is a juggernaut of an offense.



so, basically, as far as i'm concerned, bring on the nick foles era.
   2938. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 29, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4221720)
does anyone else love the fact that the jets haven't scored a single touchdown so far this preseason?

i like rex ryan well enough, but sanchez and tebow are by far the two most overexposed QBs in the NFL, and i can't help but smile at the fact that they're ####### terrible.
   2939. zenbitz Posted: August 29, 2012 at 08:43 PM (#4221817)
I dunno, preseason. It seems that goal 1 is keep people healthy. Goal 2 is sorting out the back end of the roster. Both Tebow and Sanchez are locks.

I havent followed the Jets but there is not really a "starter" controversy, is there?
   2940. Tripon Posted: August 29, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4221835)
Not yet, but there probably will be in the season once the Jets starts losing games. Not necessarily because of Sanchez, but one of the easiest ways a team can show they're making a 'change' is to replace the QB. But from all reports, Tim Tebow is simply not going to succeed either as the Jets QB.

Who's 3rd on the depth chart at QB for the Jets?
   2941. JJ1986 Posted: August 29, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4221853)
Greg McElroy. I'm not sure he's ever taken an NFL snap. He was hurt most of last year.
   2942. JJ1986 Posted: August 29, 2012 at 10:08 PM (#4221869)
I think DeSean is (or was before last year) one of the more overrated receivers in the game. He's fast and he catches the ball downfield, but he's limited and he's lazy. The Eagles need Maclin to star if they're going to be a top passing offense.
   2943. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 31, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4223788)
I think DeSean is (or was before last year) one of the more overrated receivers in the game. He's fast and he catches the ball downfield, but he's limited and he's lazy. The Eagles need Maclin to star if they're going to be a top passing offense.
when the eagles offense was firing on all cylinders in 2010, it was insanely fun to watch. jackson and maclin spread the field vertically, avant and celek owned the slot, mccoy ran wild in both the ground and the passing game, and vick was dynamic. between vick, mccoy, and desean, you had arguably the three most exciting players in the NFL at their positions, and when it was going, it was fantastic.


anyway, since today's the final cutdown day, i'd just like to say a few words:

at RB, they have to keep both polk and brown. if there's a guy to cut, it should probably be dion lewis, but that's not likely either.
at WR, i think damaris johnson has clearly won the 4th spot on the team, and i haven't at all been impressed by either cooper or mcnutt, so i think i might keep just 4 and go with 3 TE:
at TE: celek, harbor, and brackett. all 4 WRs that i have making the team are under 6'2, so carrying a 3rd passcatching TE who's 6'6 seems like a good idea.
at OL: i really only see 6 guys (herremens, watkins, kelce, mathis, vandervelde, and kelly--though oddly, all of these guys are white) who are deserving of roster spots, but since none of them are LTs, i guess you need to keep dunlap as well. they really should be scrounging the waiver wire here, because i'm completely underwhelmed by what they have.


at DE: i wasn't impressed by curry, but since you spent a 2nd rounder on him this year, you probably have to keep him. that means tapp is the odd man out. there's a really good group of guys here.
at DT: . jenkins, cox, and landry are locks, while dixon and thornton were fighting for the 5th spot behind patterson. with patterson now on the PUP list, that eases the numbers.
at LB: i believe that if a guy makes an impact at this position, you go out of your way to keep him, and this year, that player was ryan rau. he's probably not gonna make the 53 man roster, but i think he's worthy of it. the starters right now are kendricks, ryans, and jordan. in addition jamar chaney is likely a lock. beyond those 4, you have rau, brian rolle (who was the team's best LB last year), keenan clayton (who's a great nickel back and special teamer), and casey matthews (who has hair). that's 8 guys for 6 spots. if you can get away with stashing matthews on IR, that still leaves 1 guy out.
at CB: hanson really needs to go. DRC, and nnamdi are the starters, with boykin as the nickel. beyond them, hughes, lindley, and marsh are fighting for whatever spots are left.
at S: like at LB, i believe that if a guy makes an impact, you go out of your way to keep him, and this year, that guy was phillip thomas. i think he's actually got an argument as the best S in camp, but allen and coleman seem to be entrenched as starters, and jarrett was a 2nd round pick. plus, colt anderson is a special teams ace.

K, P, PR, and KR: henery, henry, johnson, boykin -- all 4 of these guys are rookies/2nd year guys. henry is also the holder on field goals.


and at QB: i think you've gotta lose kafka. if you're committing to foles as the guy of the future, then kafka's not that. and if you're looking for a steady veteran to lead the team on a game-winning drive in the 4th quarter after vick breaks a rib, kafka's not that either. and when you add that foles and edwards had a relationship prior to either of the being eagles (i believe edwards' spent his offseasons at the university of arizona, and he and foles knew each other through a sister of a friend. they apparently talked to each other every week last year to discuss foles' performance), i think you've just gotta bite the bullet and cut kafka.



just a few other thoughts:

bryce brown looked really good catching passes out of the backfield. for a 220 lb back like him to not only have the power to run through tackles and to push the pile forward, but to also be able to outrun LBs to the outside and catch passes out of the backfield...there's just a ton of talent there.

nick foles: he dropped back 64 times in the preseason and was sacked once, last night, when he ran out of bounds for no gain. you've gotta like that. from a note in the daily news: "The Eagles managed 20 preseason sacks. Their opponents notched three." over a full season, that's 80 sacks for and 12 sacks against.

and i'm not sure whether brandon boykin and damaris johnson are as fast as desean jackson, but they are every bit as quick. those look like two really good gets.
   2944. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: August 31, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4223947)
it sounds like rau (LB), clayton (LB), brackett (TE), and thomas (S) are all gone. i don't think clayton has practice squad eligibility, but the other 3, plus marvin mcnutt (WR), brandon washington (OL), frank trotter (DL), steve vallos (OL), and emil igwenagu (FB) are the likely candidates to be retained on the practice squad, should they make it through waivers.


other notable cuts are oj atogwe, joselio hanson, mardy gilliard, and chad hall.


there should be 3 more cuts coming, with the likely candidates being at QB (kafka or edwards), RB (lewis or polk), OL (admittedly, i don't even know who's still on the roster), DL (graham, tapp, dixon, or thornton), and CB (marsh, lillard, or hughes).

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