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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Monday, June 18, 2012
From the twitters: Roger Clemens has been acquitted of all charges. He squeezed Rusty Hardin’s hand in thanks as the last count was read.
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1. Srul Itza Posted: June 18, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4160333)Unusual aging curve. Of course, YMMV regarding the validity of that argument.
I expect the answer to this will be "Not at all."
In terms of what the prosecution presented in this case? My understanding is none (unless you count a conversation that he might have had with Andy Pettitte, which Pettitte conceded on the stand only had a 50% chance of actually having happened).
I have no idea how that will affect the cultural narratives about the two men, but I think it's a meaningful distinction when considering how they'll be remembered.
No, he wasn't.
That's a fair point.
You're right. Sorry, I was conflating the two cases. Clemens was charged with perjury on a non-PED issue (the Canseco party), but you're right, Bonds was found guilty of "obstruction of justice" or some such.
I expect the answer to this will be "Not at all."
Perhaps, but there should be some folks who'll accept the results of the American legal system. I don't see why Joe Sportswriter or Fred Fan should think they have superior knowledge of the subject.
And yet they will.
And in fact they might be right about that. I haven't followed the case too closely but in most cases a lot of evidence is publicly available that is not available to the jury. I imagine the folks who have followed this case closely know more than the jury knew.
If Clemens is wise, he will quit while he is ahead and not pursue his civil case against McNamee in New York. The money is obviously irrelevant, since Clemens has more than he could ever spend and McNamee is broke. On the PR front, a Clemens victory would barely move the needle, while a loss would be devastating.
I have reacted similarly (i.e., violent outburst) when competing against others or even all by my lonesome, and the harshest drug I've consumed is caffeine.
I think it will make a difference. It certainly can make a difference. I think anyone cares about who goes into the HOF (I don't) should see this as the opportunity of a lifetime.
First, and this may be a first, I'd like to commend Ray and David and everyone else who followed the whole thing closely and explained it so clearly and well. My views on PEDs and baseball is much more ambivalent than those who think it's all a tempest in a teapot. But, with respect to the HOF, and driving a nail in the coffin that holds the corpse of absolute disqualification, I urge them not to slack now. This is your chance. Writers read you guys, just like they did with the discussions about Blyleven. As Rainier Wolfcastle would say, "up and at them."
You had here a terrible "star" witness who is himself a proven liar.(*) The physical evidence he presented was created and maintained under circumstances that made him look even weirder. Take away the famous defendant and teh roids and there's no way this case is brought.
(*) Whether or not on the key issue in the case.
EDIT: Bonus question who wasted more taxpayer money???
As it turned out, of course, the government's insane investigation, while costing tens of millions, turned up nothing more. I think I even predicted that the government would not bring a case against Clemens if all they essentially had was McNamee -- but the government proved to be even more idiotic than I gave them credit for.
Agreed! The threads on this site were very informative about what was actually happening with the trial. I felt like I only vaguely followed it, but I knew more than most of the columnists.
I think it was the folks who didn't follow the case closely who thought they knew more than they did. Hence the "surprise" at Pettitte's trial testimony, which was awfully similar to his publicly-available deposition testimony. Even some who participated in the Steroid Wars here for years didn't seem to grasp how unhelpful his testimony was going to be for the government's case.
McNamee's testimony on why he created the evidence was flatly contradicted by his own wife. He was a dreadful witness (a tactical and strategic, not moral, judgment). The case should not have been prosecuted.
What surprised me about Pettite's testimony was that the government did not have Pettite lined up to testify that upon reflection, despite Clemens' statement that he had not previously used HGH and had told Pettite about Debbie Clemens' HGH use, he was confident that Clemens' prior statement had been about Clemens' own use, not Debbie's. Judge Walton commented at sidebar that he had expected the USAO to introduce such testimony on re-direct, and that their failure to do so caused him to seriously consider excluding Pettite's testimony.
I doubt either Clemens or Bonds will get elected to the HOF in 2013 although writers may relent eventually somewhere down the road. On the other hand, I fully expect Jack Morris to go in next year(sigh).
Given that after all the evidence was in and the case had gone to the jury, idiot reporters were still talking about how obviously Clemens was guilty, it's clear that they stopped paying attention after their two minutes of hate at Pettitte for "changing his story."
This verdict doesn't mean Clemens didn't use steroids/HGH, of course, nor does it mean that McNamee was lying about the central claim. But from Day 1 Clemens maintained his innocence. He released a statement maintaining his innocence, and was called to say it in his own words. He released a youtube video doing that, and was called to say it to a reporter. He said it to Mike Wallace, and it was demanded (such as from Mike Lupica) that Clemens say it to a group of reporters and that he sue Brian McNamee. He said it to a group of reporters and filed suit against Brian McNamee, and it was demanded that he testify under oath in front of Congress. (Quoting from a Lupica column: "Don't tell us. Tell Congress.") Clemens told Congress under oath, knowing that he was walking into a perjury trap, and yet that still wasn't good enough for people who, it turned out, were no good themselves. Clemens was then indicted and refused -- completely refused -- to plead out or strike any sort of a deal with prosecutors.
Clemens did everything that his critics -- themselves unreasonable, dishonest, and dishonorable -- demanded that he do, all along the way. When these same people moved the goalposts on him time and time again, he kicked it through the new goalpost, time and time again. He put his liberty at stake and prevailed despite the government setting a perjury trap for him and then spending tens of millions of dollars in a crazed vendetta to bring him to trial. He did all of this, and prevailed.
One might think this would earn Clemens the slightest benefit of the doubt in the eyes of his critics, but when your critics are unreasonable, dishonest, and dishonorable people, the reality is that that will not happen.
Clemens has done some dishonorable things in his life. He admitted that he stepped out on his wife, for example, after a vendetta-fied investigation by the Daily News turned up Mindy McCready and other mistresses. But on this issue, Clemens has more honor than all of the Mike Lupicas and John Heymans put together.
I agree on all fronts. There is a reason that prosecutors often use their discretion not to prosecute based upon a single cooperator. I have seen single cooperator cases with worse cooperators lead to conviction, but you need great corroboration (like audio taped confessions or contemporaneous video).
I still want to hear the jurors explain what they thought about the medical waste. They could have concluded that there was reasonable doubt as to whether McNamee fabricated the evidence -- which seemed to be the defense's theory. But they might also have concluded that even taken at face value the medical waste did not establish that Clemens used PEDs, because of the possibility of "innocent" cross-contamination. If the first trial had gone forward on schedule, Hardin was not planning to introduce any expert testimony regarding the possibility of cross-contamination, but instead was going to stake the defense on attacking McNamee. I would like to know if Hardin's tactical shift made any difference.
Well, they did have the kid who testified pretty clearly that Clemens was at the Canseco party. Now I don't think that Clemens denial was material (and it seemed from Quinn's twitter like Walton was inclined to toss the charge if that was the only guilty verdict) but there was at least factual evidence not tied to McNamee that would establish one false statement part of the obstruction charge. After Bonds' conviction for telling a rambling story about being the son of a celebrity, I wouldn't have been surprised to see the jury return such a verdict on that charge here.
Yeah, but a lot of that was additional information about what a scumbag McNamee was.
The Committee sent some dumb letter to the DOJ some time after the 2008 hearing, basically asking the DOJ to look into it. Even the Committee's letter was hopelessly biased against Clemens, making inferences against him that should not have fairly been made against him.
That I remembered, although wasn't it reported that the jury was 11-1 pro-conviction on an actual perjury about PEDs count? Not that it matters; that was also a prosecutorial over-reach that shouldn't have come to trial. It just seems to leave a good bit more for a "Bonds used PEDs" writer to hang his hat on than this does for a "Clemens used PEDs" writer.
No. In opening statements, the defense specifically denied 'knowingly' but did not deny ever having taken PEDs. If I recall correctly, evidence came out at that trial that a sample (part of the illegally seized threshold testing group?) that had tested negative with the then current testing protocal later tested positive using more advanced techniques.
Not that I trust reporting on the confidential deliberations in a jury room, but I think the reporting was 11-1 on the 'have you ever been injected by anyone other than your doctor' charge.
I think the 11-1 was about whether Bonds had ever been injected by anyone other than a doctor. There was testimony for someone (Greg Anderson's sister or something) that she saw this happen.
EDIT: Right relation, wrong person -- Kathy Hoskins, The sister of Bonds' former business manager, Steve Hoskins, testified she saw him being injected by Anderson, but not about what was in the needle
How do you know he doesn't want to start a video game business?
Yes.
The opening statement was basically a rewording of Bonds' denial from the grand jury and like I said the defense never ever conceded that he unknowingly took steroids.
Fair enough. I don't want to sound like I'm defending the Bonds prosecution. It just seems to me that a reasonable person following the Bonds trial could be reasonably convinced that Bonds used PEDs at some point in his career (see, e.g., your #42) (while still believing that Bonds shouldn't have been charged and that the prosecution failed to make their case). A reasonable person following the Clemens trial would, I think, come to the same conclusion as the jury did here: there's no "there" there.
I don't know about that, I personally believe that Clemens used some sort of PED. But, the government can't convict him based on that sort of evidence they produced. There is a 'there', its just the 'there' that the government shown wasn't 'there.'
A pun of classic quality.
Not exactly. McNamee's central claim that he injected Clemens is a "there." The problem with the case was always that one can't seriously hope to meet the BARD standard on that central claim on the back of McNamee.
Or he mistakenly thinks this decision vindicates him in the eyes of the public.
I didn't follow this closely but was the diet soda cans filled with syringes evidence ever allowed as evidence?
Yes.
Please tell me he had their matching action figures and baseball cards.
Former Gov. Donald Carcieri of Rhode Island was the prime mover of the Studio 38 loan, so I understand.
It was under former AG Michael Mukasey's regime that the DOJ filed the charges against Clemens, but I would guess that more money has been spent under AG Eric Holder. AGs are generally unwilling to drop high profile cases begun before their terms, so YMMV.
So, Carcieri, Holder, Mukasey. The last two varying depending on your tastes.
He's unlikely to find them where he'll be spending the next 6 to 29 years.
http://www.doc.nv.gov/?q=node/26
As if judges are supposed to use the sportswriters' approach to running trials, and let all evidence in because we already know he is so guilty.
One might think this would earn Clemens the slightest benefit of the doubt in the eyes of his critics, but when your critics are unreasonable, dishonest, and dishonorable people, the reality is that that will not happen.
You're absolutely right about the first part, and I hope you're wrong about the second. I stand by my conviction that this will result in a noticeable difference in Clemens vs Bonds HoF votes, but perhaps that's because I have more residual faith in human beings than I should.
And I'll second the deserved kudos for you and David in sticking to the details of this case when not that many other people were. Your arguments (as reflected in the trial) may or may not move the needle (groan) with too many BBWAA writers, but AFAIC your time here on this case was well spent.
I thought this was a really good post, Ray.
I'd also like to second the idea that I felt very well informed on this trial due to DN and RDP's comments on the various threads.
The evidence before the court is incontrovertible, there's no need for the jury to retire. In all my years of judging I have never seen before someone so deserving the full penalty of law.
There's a pretty good chance that the 9th Circuit will find that talking like Casey Stengel is *not* a crime, IMHO. That may erase any difference between Bonds and Clemens, although perhaps not by the time the first year ballots are cast.
Ahh, don't we all?
Were they worried that Encyclopedia Brown was working for the defense?
That would have been an AWESOME reveal during court.
I have to say, though, I'm shocked they didn't "pull a Bonds" and find something, anything, to convict him on.
As a former prosecutor, I'm more than interested in knowing how this case got past the lame memo from the Hill to 'look into this.' I'm inclined to think it was one or more (ok, more) windbags in Congress tearing up somebody in Justice about how 'nobody comes in here and barks at me like a junkyard dog......don't you know who I am?.....we've got to clean up X and send a message...' Then all it takes is a couple sorry attention seeking AUSAs, and a 'how can we lose this?' case and I think I have my answer. I guess they banked on finding something in addition to McNamee.
Quoting now:
"Let him go before a bunch of sportswriters or a bunch of broadcasters or media people and let us ask him questions - with no narrow range of subject matter - and let him stand up to that scrutiny. He will not allow himself to do that. This was a very narrow scope."
Hilarious.
I want to send this to every sportwriter in America.
Nice, hell, terrific, post.
The shame is that as I was reading it,Kurkjian is on ESPN saying that the verdict won't matter, that Clemens is damned in the eyes of the writers.
And it pisses me off.
Lots.
I mean, I'm not going to stand here and say whether I think Clemens did or didn't do PED's, but daaaay-yuuuum, the man pretty much did everything anyone could have asked of him, risked his liberty and a chunk of his fortune, got publicly lambasted, had his private life dragged through the mud, personal records combed through(And I tend to be of the mind that if the feds looked hard enough at dang near anybody they could find something to get nit-picky about) and then was acquitted...I'm just a bit morally offended that folks could continue to be such asses about this...and take proud public stances based on lies, half-truths and idiocy to boot. It's ugly, it's reprehensible and it's wrong.
Disclaimer-I'm a Red Sox fan, but not really a Clemens fan. I'm pretty much ambivalent about the guy. Loved him as a kid, but that died as I got old enough to realize what an ass he could be.
(a) This wouldn't have happened if Andy Pettitte hadn't changed his story and lied to help his friend.
(b) Clemens must be guilty because McNamee had no reason to lie.
(c) Yeah, McNamee had credibility problems, but regardless of the verdict, Clemens must be guilty because of the large amount of evidence against him. [Note: not one person who says this identifies any such evidence.]
(e) Tough nuts, Rocket, you're in the court of public opinion now;
(f) Verdict, shmerdict, I still know what I know. (However, had the verdict been "guilty," I would have grabbed onto that sumbitch and rode it like it was made of inflatable rubber, and I was drowning in the ocean.)
TRUTH STRIKES OUT
Hee.
The rest of your post is spot-on, but actually the government is pretty good at winning cases. Their record gets distorted when cases are brought because of politics, which this one was. He-said, he-said stand-alone perjury cases (i.e., with no underlying substantive charges) are virtually never prosecuted and with a lead witness this bad, you can almost cross out the "virtually."
You bring perjury charges when you also have substantive underlying charges -- Martha Stewart, e.g. -- and you go to trial with horrible witnesses when you're vindicating some statute other than mere perjury -- date rape, organized crime, etc. There was simply no legitimate governmental interest in ferreting out who between Clemens and McNamee was telling the truth to Congress. None.
During the trial Pettitte of course didn't change his story, but Attanasio did a good job of crystallizing for the jury that Pettitte's memory of this one conversation was only 50-50. And aside from that, Pettitte provided no evidence. If sportswriters were right from the beginning that Pettitte had chapter and verse on Clemens -- that there were (say) multiple conversations where Clemens had admitted use, or that Pettitte had actually witnessed Clemens using, etc. -- then the 50-50 thing about one conversation would have been no big deal. But sportswriters had been so busy celebrating over Pettitte's congressional deposition and doing a victory dance over that to realize that Pettitte not only didn't provide much evidence against Clemens at all, but that Pettitte's testimony was more notable for what it did NOT contain: any hard evidence -- such as Pettitte witnessing something -- that Clemens had used.
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